What/which do you think the main problem on PvP Is?

kreatyve

I didn't vote, as I don't PvP, however.... I think a lot of people are missing out on one little detail. The game is D&D based. The devs have to stick with D&D lore when making any content for the game. Wizards of the Coast has to approve everything. But... PvP is not a very large part of D&D. While it does happen, it was never created for that. The powers available were never balanced for it. I think this plays a huge role in the problems with PvP in Neverwinter.

crowdsourced

Gear Wall

Gear differences is the correct answer but it was nice of OP to segregate it into 2 categories so that the same general problem will have scattered votes thus lowering the percentage.

indylol

class and game mechanics

@clonkyo1

Idk bro, i still have to disagree. If you download neverwinter on any console or PC, there is NOTHING stopping you from becoming a BiS 4300 player in a GH20 guild with legendary mounts etc, how long it takes you to get there is your own personal journey, and I don't think it should be factored into balancing for PvP, sure they could make getting to "true endgame" more accessible to the average player, but it is in no way unobtainable by anymeans, for ANY player.

@kreatyve

No ones asking the devs to change the game fundamentally from its D&D core (though i never heard of a pen n paper situation where someones companion could 1 hit another enemy, player or otherwise, and everyone was just cool with it because it was known to be overpowered). Players are simply asking that the devs use some thought when considering the values they give each skill. Right now Plant Growth from a Combat HR is one of the biggest offenders of PvE mechanics crapping on PvP gameplay because of the way it was designed.

I think its universally agreed upon within the PvP community that no one should die in 1 hit, no one should be invincible because of their class choice, and no one should be unkillable because lifesteal is out of hand, but for now all 3 remain true and we have no where else to turn but to ask someone like @nitocris83 or @mimicking#6533 or @terramak what they intend to do about it in 2017. I'm done with pitchforks, i'll have an Obama-Netanyahu style meeting if it means someone will actually listen to the people who PvP.

crowdsourced

Gear Wall

indylol said:

I'm done with pitchforks, i'll have an Obama-Netanyahu style meeting if it means someone will actually listen to the people who PvP.

This same speech has been given for 3+ years now on the PC and the result is usually a huge chunk of the community quitting.

theguiido

Match Making

They have have to fix the match making so people are paired up based on similar ratios as opposed to QUICKEST MATCH. I know it goes deeper into what @panderus said in a comment one time, they need to make the player base on PvP increased and the only way to do that is by making it more appeazing to everyone.

kalina311

kreatyve said:

I didn't vote, as I don't PvP, however.... I think a lot of people are missing out on one little detail. The game is D&D based. The devs have to stick with D&D lore when making any content for the game. Wizards of the Coast has to approve everything. But... PvP is not a very large part of D&D. While it does happen, it was never created for that. The powers available were never balanced for it. I think this plays a huge role in the problems with PvP in Neverwinter.

I Think you are missing out on a little detail an entire mod and guild strongho0ld was based on pvp
guantlrgyrm was based on pvp all approved by wizards


they made rank 10s and then rank 12s that you did not need for normal content only pvp

all those weird best in slot enchantments only for pvp

a large majority of cryptics early income was from pvp players not pve
\
your logic is flawed and I defiantly dont want you advocating your pvp "opinion" to the devs

wrong powers in mod 1 and 2 were balanced for pvp and some worked differently or had different durations in pvp

gauntlegyrm was released with wizards of the coast approval and it is pvp (old version had pve elements and a dungeon)

there was also neverwinter combat league was released with wizzard of the coast approval

and black ice domination was released with wizards of the coast approval

the devs also created the post what new modes we would like to see in pvp in the past year

you are definitely biased and not taking a neutral stance for a mod

also saying it is not part of lore is and its not relevant ( when it is part of lore eg items you craft in the game profession and tenacity gear its all tied into the game already

and you dont even pvp ....*sigh*

so your whole argument boils down to It has to be released with wizards of the coast approval
and I did in fact show tons of pvp stuff that was released with wizards of the coast approval
which is the reason you are falsely promoting using/ advocating not to improve it

also your argument "IT" (pvp neverwinter ) was never created for pvp is wrong cause I showed / demonstrated many areas that were created for pvp and added to the game fpr many modules
I also showed how crypictic monotized it by creating high level expensive enchantments
useful in pvp ONLY !!! and deliberately leaving some of them broken for months if not years

yup I guess we cant count on you sending any positive message to the devs about pvp you have shown your hand thanks you are really really biased and giving false info

thanks tho ...

I think the main problem with Pvp is mods and devs that dont relize there is a problem or chose to put their head in the sand to pursue their own agenda

I think the poll should stipulate that you must pvp in order to vote or voice an "actual" opinion to base something on

elrondknight

kalina311 said:

kreatyve said:

I didn't vote, as I don't PvP, however.... I think a lot of people are missing out on one little detail. The game is D&D based. The devs have to stick with D&D lore when making any content for the game. Wizards of the Coast has to approve everything. But... PvP is not a very large part of D&D. While it does happen, it was never created for that. The powers available were never balanced for it. I think this plays a huge role in the problems with PvP in Neverwinter.

I Think you are missing out on a little detail an entire mod and guild strongho0ld was based on pvp
guantlrgyrm was based on pvp all approved by wizards


they made rank 10s and then rank 12s that you did not need for normal content only pvp

all those weird best in slot enchantments only for pvp

a large majority of cryptics early income was from pvp players not pve
\

your logic is flawed and I defiantly dont want you advocating your pvp "opinion" to the devs


and wrong powers in mod 1 and 2 were balanced for pvp and some worked differently or had different durations in pvp

gauntlegyrm was released with wizards of the coast approval and it is pvp (old version had pve elements and a dungeon)

there was also neverwinter combat league was released with wizzard of the coast approval

and black ice domination was released with wizards of the coast approval

the devs also created the post what new modes we would like to see in pvp in the past year

you are definitely biased and not taking a neutral stance for a mod

also saying it is not part of lore is and its not relevant ( when it is part of lore eg items you craft in the game profession and tenacity gear its all tied into the game already



and you dont even pvp ....*sigh*


so your whole argument boils down to It has to be released with wizards of the coast approval
and I did in fact show tons of pvp stuff that was released with wizards of the coast approval
which is the reason you are falsely promoting using/ advocating not to improve it

also your argument "IT" (pvp neverwinter ) was never created for pvp is wrong cause I showed / demonstrated many areas that were created for pvp and added to the game fpr many modules
I also showed how crypictic monotized it by creating high level expensive enchantments
useful in pvp ONLY !!! and deliberately leaving some of them broken for months if not years


yup I guess we cant count on you sending any positive message to the devs about pvp you have shown your hand thanks you are really really biased and giving false info

thanks tho ...

I think the main problem with Pvp is mods and devs that dont relize there is a problem or chose to put their head in the sand to pursue their own agenda

I think the poll should stipulate that you must pvp in order to vote or voice an "actual" opinion to base something on

Wow. No more espresso for you.

demonmonger

Class Balance.

I clap.... the problem
Elephant in the room has been exposed....

indylol

class and game mechanics

@clonkyo1

Thats somewhat false, somewhat true. So you're right you can't get the perceived BiS PvP gear without being able to win in PvP, but warborn outclasses prestige for Dom and with 1 month of VIP you should be able to afford 2 pieces from daily keys, plus the warborn gloves are dirt cheap so theres your starter set. To be honest the warborn set has been one of the biggest improvements to PvP for quite some time because it sets the bar so low for anyone to atleast attempt PvP, this doesn't mean they can compete with the best of the best, but they can certainly learn the ropes.

As you mentioned mod4 was the golden age for many reasons, a multitude of sets to choose from is high on that list too, but I don't see a sensible way to go back to that without making them super homogeneous or <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up and making High Prophet 2.0, High Vizir 2.0, Knight Captain 2.0, or Fabled Illy 2.0.

drewhayes

Match Making

indylol said:

@clonkyo1



Thats somewhat false, somewhat true. So you're right you can't get the perceived BiS PvP gear without being able to win in PvP, but warborn outclasses prestige for Dom and with 1 month of VIP you should be able to afford 2 pieces from daily keys, plus the warborn gloves are dirt cheap so theres your starter set. To be honest the warborn set has been one of the biggest improvements to PvP for quite some time because it sets the bar so low for anyone to atleast attempt PvP, this doesn't mean they can compete with the best of the best, but they can certainly learn the ropes.



As you mentioned mod4 was the golden age for many reasons, a multitude of sets to choose from is high on that list too, but I don't see a sensible way to go back to that without making them super homogeneous or HAMSTER up and making High Prophet 2.0, High Vizir 2.0, Knight Captain 2.0, or Fabled Illy 2.0.

I disagree that warborn is the answer. I did eventually get 3/4 warborn pieces for one of my toons. It does make a difference. Now instead of getting one-shot by everything that moves on a premades team (even DC's & pallys ) I can stand & fight for about 30 seconds.... until I get stunned & killed with 2 - 3 hits. The gear gap goes way beyond armor sets. So far I have only managed to lvl 1 enchantment to rank 8 & 2 artifacts to epic. Haven't been able to get a mount better than epic either. Spending 40 - 60k AD on warborn makes Pvp a LITTLE less frustrating. Not a solution though.

crowdsourced

Gear Wall

Reading this shows the disappointing miscommunication between the PVP community and the developers/moderators (who in turn pass messages to the developers).

It is hard to get a good top-down perspective of the PVP situation when nobody in power even plays it.

metalldjt said:

Assuming that neverwinter will grow some sense and they finally make a solo/duo que , a 5v5 que and a Custom Que

Again good idea but the time for it has come and gone. You COULD say that PVP will now only be solo/duo queue. You cannot keep making PVP game modes that would further segregate the already dying PVP community. I will also point out again that Cryptic will not be wasting a single resource on a custom queue (or 5v5) so that 3-4 premades can fight each other. I understand how hard it is to get a good game out of Neverwinter but if you're being objective, its really not worth the effort to them.

crowdsourced

Gear Wall

metalldjt said:

Thats were you are wrong, FOR them to implement a custom que it would squash the negative feedback that has been around from module 8 now, think about a cup that is to full... the custom que will in exchange make that cup into a bowl.

Negative feedback from who exactly? I don't see a large contingent of players. Seems like most of it is coming from 1-2 guilds actually. And it wouldn't squash the negative experience from other players when there is still a gear gap. You all saw how the Solo/Duo queue experiment turned out, pugs still got squashed by 4k geared players leading to imbalanced, boring and quick matches where people just trade caps.

metalldjt said:

how the Que system works now, it won't take much of a CODING to make the custom que, we already have the Que Group Lobby, it will require just to invite 10 players in IT , and press on Private -> Domination-> Que.

Coding? That's the least I'm worried about. As you can see, most of their content is just recycled assets but it still takes time. It would need approval first, then they'd check how much of the playerbase will benefit from it and how much money they can earn. Gear-gap is still the biggest problem leading to imbalanced PVP.

You know what else would be easy to code? New PVP maps that have been suggested for years now but they haven't done that yet. The point is, the bottleneck isn't whether something is easy to code or not.

Maybe a developer can secretly insert this feature when they do another PVP module so that the other developers can't scratch it.

kalina311

I honestly hope a PVP-focused person gets put on the developer/moderation team as well. Both PVP and PVE need to be not falsely represented.

rhadamathys

Match Making

Several issues around PvP that I see (been playing NW for 1.5 years, just started pvp 2 months ago).

Problem 1) Gear Cost. PvP vs PvE gear is totally different. You spend all your time getting great gear only to find out it does squat in PvP. Without tenacity, there is no point in joining a PvP match. This introduces 2 mutually exclusive grind trees...either you are grinding for stuff that helps you with PvP (at the expense of not being able to keep up with PvE friends) or you grind for PvE (at the expense of not being able to keep up with your PvP friends).
Solution: Grant every player a minimum tenacity if they lack any. As soon as they enter they get bumped up to 2k Tenacity. Those over 2k are unaffected. Obviously no easy solution here. PvE is geared towards DPS stat boosts whereas PvP is geared towards 'balanced' stat boosts. Even with a tenacity boost, those without balanced gear will suffer...but at least it'll be more fun/fair. Warborn kinda helps this, but there isn't an easy way to acquire good pvp gear and even if you do...that leads to problem 2...

Problem 2) Gold Cost. Regardless of the grind, most people can't afford multiple sets of enchants. To swap out enchants costs 3g per, so to swap between your gear can cost 30-50g just to convert 1 time, double that when you are ready to go back. Not everyone has leadership armies, this eliminates most casual pvpers.
Solution: Keep the gold cost to remove items from PvE gear, but make it free to remove from PvP gear. Or, just remove the gold cost altogether, not sure why that's even a thing still...

Problem 3) Build Cost. PvE builds (feats/boons) are typically different than PvP builds. You can be good at one, but not both. To try and be good at both isn't an option without spending 100k AD every time you respec.
Solution: Again, no easy one here...A new mechanic would be nice...a toggle switch on our Character sheet. Allow us to create 2 different builds per toon (PvP Build and PvE Build) then allow us to toggle between them. This toggle would only affect feats and boons. You could add a gold cost to swap between them, but again, that just discourages casual gamers.

Problem 4) Grind cost. Glory is the equiv of AD. However, it's surprisingly hard to come by. In PvE, you can complete a dungeon in 5-8 minutes and get several pieces of salvage. In PvP, you can play in a match for 15 minutes and come away with 0 glory if you don't get 600 points.
Solution: Get rid of glory and go all AD instead (reprice all items in the glory store accordingly). Add salvageable items to the PvP matches. Right now, if you win a match you can get X glory (avg 300 glory) + goldsellbait that doesn't cover the cost of swapping enchants. What if, instead, we got X AD (avg 300 ad) + a Shores type reward? This helps solve a lot of issues for casual gamers. They no longer have to decide between dungeon runs and pvp runs. Keep the 600 point minimum to prevent exploits or, better yet, get rid of the 600 and determine rewards based on participation...if you can't get 600 but are trying, you should be rewarded. Use the normal dungeon paingiver board to determine rewards (if you did a minimum amount of damage, healing, time on node, etc, it's tracked and you get rewarded accordingly).

Problem 5) Matchmaking: Item Level Issues. just because you are 70 doesn't mean you are good. Item Level matters and can't be overlooked. Being low level vs all high levels isn't fun. This is both a -70 and 70+ problem.
Solution: Queues should respect this. On -70 there should be a IL cap, that way people can't enter with r12 and trans items on a level 29. Another solution is to incorporate IL into matchmaking. This would work for 70+ as well. Determine total IL between all players, and do your best to match them accordingly (even if it meant breaking up a party). If it isn't possible to match them, then consider offering a bonus/handicap to make things more even. (ex: if one team is say 2k IL higher than the other, that team takes longer to cap a node, or the other team has a faster chance to cap a node...another ex: if there is a gap, grant a % boost to one team, say 5% more damage or something that scales based on the difference...another ex: start one team off with a number of points ahead, again it scales. In dom, say you start with 200 points ahead)

Problem 6) Matchmaking: Premades. A good premade vs premade is a TON of fun. A premade vs pug, not so much. Casual gamers get turned off by premades. I'm not anti premade, but there is definitely a major disadvantage to being matched against a premade.
Solution: Keep Solo Dom a permanent thing and introduce Solo Gaunt. Fix Solo Dom to match based on IL...it's possible to pseudo pre-made and that needs to be addressed. Long term solution is to fix queuing. Like demogorgon, allow us to create a 10 man queue. Then we can make it private, queue up, and the 2 teams in that queue go at it. Furthermore, make it easier for pre-mades to find each other. Create a dom that is Premades only, give us the opportunity to queue into it.

Problem 7) Openworld. It's limited to IWD, which means most people never see the fights or don't know about it. This isn't good advertising.
Solution: Add openworld zones to protector's enclave and/or moonstone mask, and even consider making a low level one in one of the existing low level zones (ex: in blacklake, only level 5-15s can enter it and be flagged). This still doesn't fix the ability to apply r12 items to low levels, but perhaps you can do some scale downs like you do in sharandar)


Anyway, food for thought. Not saying my problems/solutions are representative of everyone, nor are they necessarily the best solutions...but they are a starting point.

rhadamathys

Match Making

kreatyve said:

The game is D&D based. The devs have to stick with D&D lore when making any content for the game. Wizards of the Coast has to approve everything.

Saying this is based on D&D is like a movie saying it's based on a true story...typically they aren't remotely accurate.

This game is not D&D other than by name and iconic creatures. 4e (which is what this is supposed to be based on) is very much not about items and the item mechanics are totally different. So are stats... There are no stats in 4e, just abilities and skills. Encounters/Dailies/At-wills are the same, but again, not all that accurate. PWE simply cuts and pastes the same stuff between their titles and re-brand it to get people to buy into it.

If you want a game that is actually like D&D, D&DOnline did a good job of recreating 3.5. WotC is in an awkward spot, they've licensed this out and realize that MMORPGs are different and thus allow a lot of slack here. I'm actually kinda shocked they sold to PWE considering their track record.


I should also note, I don't believe any of this to be the 'devs' fault like so many claim. Look at all the reviews for PWE, they hire noobs, pay them poorly, understaff, and see high turnover. They've stated who they are as a company and stand by it (clone games, rebrand, go for max profit and min effort). It's still a fun game, but once you realize a lot of the 'why' behind things, you'll relax a bit and not let these things bother you (or you'll move on)

davidagaldo

Match Making

rhadamathys said:

I should also note, I don't believe any of this to be the 'devs' fault like so many claim. Look at all the reviews for PWE, they hire noobs, pay them poorly, understaff, and see high turnover. They've stated who they are as a company and stand by it (clone games, rebrand, go for max profit and min effort). It's still a fun game, but once you realize a lot of the 'why' behind things, you'll relax a bit and not let these things bother you (or you'll move on)

Reality check! I don't miss coding for a game developer one bit. The HAMSTER we had to read on the discussion boards, the requests from whiney kids (adults too) trumpeting linear self-serving change(s). Awesome!

kalina311

@rhadamathys

some of the most profitable / broken enchantments/ mounts from cryptic are for pvp not pve
seems like a max profit and min effort me to exactly what you are advocating

thats what this is about dev / mods ignoring a profitable section of their player base yet still creating items
when there will be no one left to use them ...

they did mention in a stream that they were working on dual spec tho ...*crosses fingers*

rhadamathys

Match Making

@kalina311 I think that is what most people are missing. It's not the devs or the mods ignoring the problem. Consider them to be messengers. They don't make decisions...ex: I can have the best idea in the world, but if it isn't a priority for my boss, I'm not allowed to work on it. If I do, and I neglect what the boss wants, then I'm in trouble.

Think of it from a more managerial/owner perspective. You have a suite of games that are all essentially the same thing, just rebranded and a few tweaks. You have under paid, under experienced, overworked developers working on those suites. You have to make a decision on where to put them and what to do. You have shareholders holding you accountable and deadlines/milestones to meet. You are naturally going to focus on things that help you achieve that at the expense of potentially alienating others...it's business.

We don't know the numbers but it's possible that even if Neverwinter fixed everything and made everyone super happy, it still might not be very profitable for them. ex: say everything was perfect and no matter what we did, we never have more than 10,000 people playing the game, say another title, same thing, has 40,000...which one are you going to focus on?

I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying I'm right, but it makes sense and I understand where they are coming from and have lowered my expectations accordingly.

kalina311

@rhadamathys
ummm they have millions of players on xbox and ps4 to focus on we are just the beta server...

and mod community not backing up / responding to the comments / replies on their own false skewed statements with facts is a problem as well

I suggested many many more ways they could monitize the game and pvp in another thread exacly what these "producers" would want to give the green light and a face lift

starting quite simply with custom die packs (colors we have been begging for for years easy to make and and an easy sell )
and custom guild logos flags hats or pvp/pve t-shirts etc or even coupons that drop and are rewarded thru pvp or even custom auras or colors for stuff ( apearance change)
that is a win win win situation for them they LOVE COUPONS THAT MAKE US SPEND or should at least

I also suggested a foundry contest to design a pvp level
I also suggested a kickstarter like campagin in game to contribute to a "goal" via zen/griding whatever for pvp related level or items
there was also a 3 v 3 pvp on the test server never released as well as other hidden maps
there is also a russian server that tends to get slightly better pvp treatment

there also used to be advocates for every class in the game (in contact with the devs ) but they took those away too *slap in the face*....

kreatyve

kalina311 said:

kreatyve said:

I didn't vote, as I don't PvP, however.... I think a lot of people are missing out on one little detail. The game is D&D based. The devs have to stick with D&D lore when making any content for the game. Wizards of the Coast has to approve everything. But... PvP is not a very large part of D&D. While it does happen, it was never created for that. The powers available were never balanced for it. I think this plays a huge role in the problems with PvP in Neverwinter.

I Think you are missing out on a little detail an entire mod and guild strongho0ld was based on pvp
guantlrgyrm was based on pvp all approved by wizards


they made rank 10s and then rank 12s that you did not need for normal content only pvp

all those weird best in slot enchantments only for pvp

a large majority of cryptics early income was from pvp players not pve
\
your logic is flawed and I defiantly dont want you advocating your pvp "opinion" to the devs

wrong powers in mod 1 and 2 were balanced for pvp and some worked differently or had different durations in pvp

gauntlegyrm was released with wizards of the coast approval and it is pvp (old version had pve elements and a dungeon)

there was also neverwinter combat league was released with wizzard of the coast approval

and black ice domination was released with wizards of the coast approval

the devs also created the post what new modes we would like to see in pvp in the past year

you are definitely biased and not taking a neutral stance for a mod

also saying it is not part of lore is and its not relevant ( when it is part of lore eg items you craft in the game profession and tenacity gear its all tied into the game already

and you dont even pvp ....*sigh*

so your whole argument boils down to It has to be released with wizards of the coast approval
and I did in fact show tons of pvp stuff that was released with wizards of the coast approval
which is the reason you are falsely promoting using/ advocating not to improve it

also your argument "IT" (pvp neverwinter ) was never created for pvp is wrong cause I showed / demonstrated many areas that were created for pvp and added to the game fpr many modules
I also showed how crypictic monotized it by creating high level expensive enchantments
useful in pvp ONLY !!! and deliberately leaving some of them broken for months if not years

yup I guess we cant count on you sending any positive message to the devs about pvp you have shown your hand thanks you are really really biased and giving false info

thanks tho ...

I think the main problem with Pvp is mods and devs that dont relize there is a problem or chose to put their head in the sand to pursue their own agenda

I think the poll should stipulate that you must pvp in order to vote or voice an "actual" opinion to base something on

I think you missed my point. Wizards has to approve POWERS. To totally change or add new powers, or how certain powers work, Wizards has to approve that. Players are upset because there aren't powers that are good for PvP. There are reasons for that.

And if any poll had a stipulation that a large portion of the population was not allowed to vote in it or comment on it, the thread would be closed. Everyone is allowed to have a voice in these matters. I think you are over-estimating how much pull moderators have in what happens with the game.

crowdsourced

Gear Wall

clonkyo1 said:

kalina311 said:

I honestly hope a PVP-focused person gets put on the developer/moderation team as well. Both PVP and PVE need to be not falsely represented.

We had a dev whom really cared about PvP but he left long time ago. During those days, also, we had a PvP """""expert""""" (notice quotes) on their quarters... and trust me, that player stated on a live stream showing us both Dom and BID PvP that "he is not that good on PvP" (compared to the ones present), he weren't geared propperly (not even on BiS ranks), taking campfire buff few times, were really bad built and so on... TBH, since then and even nowadays, i always thought that PvP problems are his fault due him stating how he feels about PvP and how he would improve PvP at all to allow him do a thing on PvP.

PVE in this game is a joke so I really wouldn't care too much about that but I do hope that the developers/moderation team has at least a single person with enough competences in PVP. I don't expect them to be top tier, maybe Midnight Express level would be fine to be honest.