I couldn't play last night, first time in mod 10. Can't ever recall a game with an update where I was so angry I couldn't play.
Seriously we the community need to send a message. I think the best way to do that is boycott the game for 48hrs. Go back to ESO or WOW, your family whatever. Just leave the game for now and wait for the official response.
Yeah for the first time in nearly 3 years i have logged off after an hour in the game, was mostly chatting with a friend, didn't do anything just my daily on 1 toon. I have never missed a day, except for job or hospital stay, i have even logged on during holidays.
Tonight i felt burnt out, had no desire to do anything at all. When you don't see the end of the tunnel it is really hard to keep yourself focused.
It's like the phrase we have about the bad teacher, which says you don't hate the subject, you hate the teacher.
I will stay, but if these changes go live i will have to limit my playtime and search something as my primary. RNG in RNG in RNG and etc. meh.
I did miss a lot of good movies and series, time to catch up, while waiting for the outcome here.
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Here is the reason I see these changes were made:
1) The new raid next mod has 3 chests that all require legendary dragon keys. In theory, you could get your 3 free keys per day and open them all once, but due to point 2, this is not a feasible way of acquiring what you need.
2) In order to upgrade the new artifact weapons, you need legendary marks. These conveniently will drop in the chests in the new raid. They likely have a drop rate similar to legendary rings or even lower. Either way, they are bound to account, so you can't even sell them assuming you get them, or buy them from someone who does. So, if your RNG sucks, then tough luck, you are not upgrading your gear.
3) The new raid is significantly easier than Fangbreaker Island. Even the 3.2k version is, I would say, as hard as edemo. This makes no sense standing by itself, considering how high the requirements ARE.
4) PVP players will pay for any advantage in PVP. Even if this means spending 10's of thousands of zen. The new weapons offer a clear advantage, they are also conveniently nigh on impossible to acquire unless you intend to spend a lot of zen on legendary dragon keys.
Conclusion? The new raid is so easy because it is meant to be farmable for pvp players. If they had made it too difficult for pvp players and whales to run, then they wouldn't spend money on the keys they would need to open the chests to get the marks. Conveniently, if those pvp players are willing to fork out 10k zen or so for legendary dragon keys, they can have their fully upgraded new shiny weapons...Which will be their new, "ambush ring" or "drains" to give them that extra competitive edge that they all really crave having.
I joined to add my voice to the discontent. These changes will depopulate a lot of the skirmishes and raids available, as the risk of a crappy reward is just not worth it. It also will not be worth it to essentially do a day grinding for materials, and another waiting for the key to drop just so I can take my chances at getting loot that's essentially worth less than the key I am holding. Paying for the keys is also out of the question, the price you're actually asking equates to 1€ per key. Anyone keen on actually grinding a bit will effectively pay you the price of full Tripe A releases in a couple of weeks, and will effectively be paying to gamble on the glorified slot machines that are the loot chests. Also, if I might add, insulting your costumers intelligence and their character by saying we're exploiting a bug that was there clearly by design is also not very nice. I haven't called you guys a bunch of lying no good two bit scam artists... yet. I'd like the same courtesy.
In fact, the only sort of compromise I could see would be one where not only were the rewards in the chests improved, but the per diam bonus extended to epic chests also now extended to Legendary dragon keys, and we'd be given at least one key per diam with a Vip account. That would be manageable and would mitigate the blow considerable, and maybe give you back an ounce of good will which, by the looks of this unanimously negative vocal outcry, you guys will be sorely needing. Success of f2p communities relies, believe it or not, entirely on goodwill, and happy costumers will pay gladly if they're enjoying themselves, even if they don't need to. Disgruntled players who feel backstabbed just leave and generate bad publicity.
Failing that, you can always work on fixing bugs. Like the horrible stuttering, freezes, pop in/out of creature for no apparent reason, and just generally optimising your game to all the platforms. That's certainly a much more productive use of everyone's time.
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
Oh, hamster it.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Don't worry... The black hand will find ways for you to open chest without spending keys. We always do....
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
The loot is so bad in the game that people are clearing content, opening up the reward chest and saying, "No thanks".
Can we let that sink in for a minute.
Sinking...
[...]
Do you get it now? Loot. An aspect that is so fundamental to Dungeons and Dragons. The entire point of there being Dungeons to delve and Dragons to kill is to take their loot.
And you guys have literally created some bizarro-world D&D where thousands and thousands and thousands of adventures are literally exercising their option to not take the loot because it's so bad.
The dragon dies.
The loot chest opens.
And the heroes politely decline.
You ABSOLUTELY naild it Ironzerg. Thank you for saying what I was having a hard time expressing.
Yes, this EXACTLY.
And, joining the chorus: Dungeon keys are VERY EXPENSIVE: take a KR key, for example. An hour of time doing 6 quests across 2 zones, then 20 hours of waiting, and it pops a single KR key. In the chest in KR, you most likely get a single item worth 2000AD and some garbage worth nothing. 2200 with VIP, 3300 if you've got spare Invoke Bonus left. For an hour of my play time farming up the materials to make the key, I get two things: 3K AD, and DISAPPOINTMENT.
Let's consider: how much AD I could earn in that hour if instead of farming Icewind Dale quests to get mats for a KR key, I ran two dungeons and two skirmishes each on two characters? About 40,000, right, with invoke bonus, not counting any loot from any chests at all? If you think that's unrealistically fast for 8 runs (its not), halve it, and I'm still making 20KAD. Hell, quarter it, and I'm still making WAY MORE spending my time running KR with NO KR key than I am getting KR keys!
Greater Demon Keys? Cost 300 Faezress and 20 hours. 300 Faezress is two gold Edemo runs (yeah, you need to run it AT LEAST TWICE to get enough material to make ONE key! And that key is required in CN, too!), and the chest contains, 95% of the time, that same 3K AD.
People are using the "Decline" button BUILT INTO THE INTERFACE and getting the decline action CODED INTO THE GAME DELIBERATELY to avoid spending expensive keys to get worthless junk. And it's not a bug. Don't call this "patching a bug" or "fixing an exploit", because there's no way a decline button and a "close window, return key, do not pick up loot" option is an UNINTENTIONAL ADDITION.
You're "concerned" that players are DOING THE THING YOU SPECIFICALLY MADE POSSIBLE because the loot in the chest is usually garbage and the keys required to open the chest are REALLY EXPENSIVE, TIMEWISE? I can see two major things to be concerned about, but blaming players for not spending massive amounts of time to pick up garbage is not one of them. It's the "massive amounts of time" and the "garbage", not the "players choosing" that's the problem.
I’m going to play devil’s advocate for a moment here, and run through some hypothetical thoughts I think may have entered into this decision.
What I think likely happened here, is you had a spiraling case of behavior and poor loot chances that led to the same behavior and worse loot chances, which is where we are today.
At first the devs may have thought, “oh, alright, we’ll let them preview what they will loot, no big deal”. What likely happened then, however, is that looting and taking the goods decreased, as people held on to keys for a long period of time until that “magic” drop came that gave them everything or almost everything they needed.
What this did was stall the intended economy sinks and expenditures for the player as they might only spend $ once, or not at all with currencies.
Let’s say a dungeon key cost 5k ad. Under normal circumstances, anytime a player would want to get that key for the dungeon they would spend 5k ad and go for the loot. Let’s say originally, the loot they wanted had a 10% chance of dropping. In that case the devs desired an economy where the average person would probably sink about 50-100k ad into key purchases for that loot. In the case where the player held onto the key, however, that economy sink is only 5k ad and nothing more. This led to the devs introducing all this intermediate mediocre loot like the +1 and +2 rings. They needed to expand the loot table to make drops still feel somehow impactful, while they decreased the chance of that “desired” drop to say, 2% or 1 in 50. The hope then was the economical sink would balance out, between those who waited with their one key, and those who spent resources on new ones each time.
This approach was likely deemed untenable, as it pissed off both the people who spent resources (“I’m just getting HAMSTER and HAMSTER again.”), and those who held their keys (“Well, still not going to use this key as this stuff is junk”). This led to both parties not running dungeons anymore, and possibly leaving.
Thus, the current solution was born. The goal was to reset and return the game economy to an equilibrium where resources are constantly being spent, and rewards are more consistently being given.
This way, if a chest loot table has an intended sink of say 50k, and a cost-per attempt of 5k, they can move the loot tables back up to 10% from 2%, and have everyone spend the intended resources.
Now, I want to make one final devil’s advocate point towards those who say that the rewards from the chest should be equal or greater to what they spend. If they are by standard, less than what you put in unless you get a good drop, is it gambling? I honestly think so, BUT, I also think this gambling method is necessary so long as the game stays primarily f2p. If a completely free player is not losing resources, what incentive do they have to invest either money or time into activities to gain more of those resources?
Let’s go back to that 5k key example. If the cost of the key and the “unlucky” reward for the key are both 5k ad, then you’re back to the same problem you had before. You get a single one-time investment, with no future growth or spending. Thus, for completely free players, the greater chance out of any loot table MUST be a loss of some sort because otherwise they have no incentive to spend any more time, money, or in-game resources to recoup their losses.
Now, an obvious solution that I WANT in light of these recent developments is to move some rewards over to VIP, like I’ve mentioned elsewhere. Give VIP players a legendary dragon key at a high rank, say 10 or above, and you then allow 2 methods of cash inflow. Either those few players who buy the keys from the zen store, just like the enchanted keys, or those more casual players who are willing to spend a little money regularly, like a subscription, but want that subscription to supplement casual gameplay costs.
Do I think this could have been communicated better? Absolutely, if I am right, they should be explaining this to folks. I can understand it being called a “bug”, however wide the disconnect with the playerbase may be, because at the current moment, it most likely is causing “unintended behavior and consequences”. But, it is poor wording at best without an explanation for the playerbase.
Now, of course if things stay the way they are now, with just the preview option gone, then yeah, things are going to suck, and they should make changes. I hope they already are, and are just leaving those things unsaid. So at best, this is just some poor communication to fix a potentially serious economic issue, and at worst, ½ of the solution to a problem. I’m cautiously optimistic, but I can certainly understand some folk’s anger.
you guys are HAMSTER despicable. HAMSTER drop rate on everything, expecialy paid key chests and so you take away the chance of saving a key to not use on HAMSTER and reduce the price of paid keys by FREAKING 50 instead of turning them to 50 zen to make sence of this stupid madness.
"We are pleased to address this bug because it resolves an inequity between the minority of players who knew about it and the majority who did not, and because the Neverwinter design team will be better able to design rewards for chests going forward now that the bug has been fixed." are you serious? shamelessly spiting on the face of people who play your game.
Thiis is what I would do if I wanted to upset all the players of my game at once. So good job on that, you're going to unite the entire playerbase against you.
To be fair, this change is incredibly upsetting, to the point I'm not seriously reconsidering my commitment to this game. This would be a huge breach of trust if this ever goes live. How can i trust the company not to screw me once again if such an horror gets validated and pushed to live?
Yet again the steal from the player and expect the game to survive, no AD in professions (after suffering major woman agro for getting leadership to 25) a month later they take it out.
No more AD from invoking, no more gateway so i can't use my tablet when not at home to do professions. No more Sword coast mini game (after i spent 2 mil getting pets that would let me kick the final boss in the epic dung) So i can get companion gear and all the fun stuff
Punishing the MAJORITY for the aspects of a few once more. Now you say it is raining but it isn't rain. They keys we have always had with the option to loot or not to loot, look back on your own patch notes. It wasn't a bug, your trying to turn NvW into p2p everyone can see it yet your still trying to keep it advertised as F2P. Your not making it impossible for the new player to get going, just like cigarettes. Your going to start killing your core people without getting the new people playing, thus your really just killing the game... this must be your goal as you keep doing it and making it worse. Maybe the company is tired of making money with this and just want to kill the game without bothering to just say that. So your trying to kill your core players as well. Well even if that is your aim, your doing it. Next comes you won't have enough money coming in to pay for the servers then game crashes all the time from lack of upkeep then everyone quits and then you have no more game. the end
Let’s go back to that 5k key example. If the cost of the key and the “unlucky” reward for the key are both 5k ad, then you’re back to the same problem you had before. You get a single one-time investment, with no future growth or spending. Thus, for completely free players, the greater chance out of any loot table MUST be a loss of some sort because otherwise they have no incentive to spend any more time, money, or in-game resources to recoup their losses.
Unfortunately, your "5k" example is not a good one. The required amount of time spent grinding campaign currency for a campaign key is easily worth 20-40K AD (not even counting free chests and drops), *and* it's time spent not being social or playing with other people, *and* it takes a day to make the key, *and* the "loss" result is such a large part of the table that it will most likely be weeks before you get a result of "marginally profitable".
Even discounting the less-fun nature of "farming key mats in a one-person zone" compared to "playing with other players", and even ignoring the stuff from the free chests, you're still losing 75-95% of your value *almost every time*.
Let’s go back to that 5k key example. If the cost of the key and the “unlucky” reward for the key are both 5k ad, then you’re back to the same problem you had before. You get a single one-time investment, with no future growth or spending. Thus, for completely free players, the greater chance out of any loot table MUST be a loss of some sort because otherwise they have no incentive to spend any more time, money, or in-game resources to recoup their losses.
Unfortunately, your "5k" example is not a good one. The required amount of time spent grinding campaign currency for a campaign key is easily worth 20-40K AD (not even counting free chests and drops), *and* it's time spent not being social or playing with other people, *and* it takes a day to make the key, *and* the "loss" result is such a large part of the table that it will most likely be weeks before you get a result of "marginally profitable".
Even discounting the less-fun nature of "farming key mats in a one-person zone" compared to "playing with other players", and even ignoring the stuff from the free chests, you're still losing 75-95% of your value *almost every time*.
That 5k example was not intended as a real world example, but as a hypothetical example to do simple math with. My entire post is intended to use hypothetical figures to explain the process, not the actual current cost of this mess.
Love yourself, and focus on the rest of the madness of life later.
That 5k example was not intended as a real world example, but as a hypothetical example to do simple math with. My entire post is intended to use hypothetical figures to explain the process, not the actual current cost of this mess.
Whereas my being upset is ENTIRELY about the current cost of the mess, where we're told that they're "fixing a bug" and that players playing the game as-intended (seriously, check the patch notes when this feature went in) are "exploiting" - implying heavily that their belief is that everything would be JUST FINE currently if only people were accepting the loot and spending the keys every time.
(And also, in the process, telling people that using a prominent feature, that was touted as a feature when it was implemented, is suddenly a bannable offense. Which is a whole different kettle of lutefisk)
There's no indication in the announcement (and there's been no followup/clarification!) that they understand just how expensive campaign keys *are*, or just how lousy the chest loot really is. And your hypothetical about how cheap keys with a majority loss, minority profit, rare great profit, and very rare JACKPOT would work makes sense.... but it's not the current situation and there's no indication that the developers have *anything like that* in mind.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited October 2016
@vandignesca I could go along with a decision made along the lines you described. Would players still be upset over it? Sure. But if there's an underlying logic that's intended to make the game better for everyone, then that can be accepted.
But that sort of explanation needs to come from the developers, not just "Hey guys, we fixed a bug!" junk that we got fed.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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jaysun1977Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 177Arc User
@vandignesca I could go along with a decision made along the lines you described. Would players still be upset over it? Sure. But if there's an underlying logic that's intended to make the game better for everyone, then that can be accepted.
But that sort of explanation needs to come from the developers, not just "Hey guys, we fixed a bug!" junk that we got fed.
Yes, my post was entirely intended as a potential explanation for the process of the decision, nothing else.
Also, yes, at the VERY BEST, I would still agree that what we have here is poor communication. If this change is done in the absense of other balancing changes, then yeah it sucks full HAMSTER.
However, if my speculation is correct, then I support the change along with the consequences I outlined.
Love yourself, and focus on the rest of the madness of life later.
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lordseth1985Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 319Arc User
I’m going to play devil’s advocate for a moment here, and run through some hypothetical thoughts I think may have entered into this decision.
What I think likely happened here, is you had a spiraling case of behavior and poor loot chances that led to the same behavior and worse loot chances, which is where we are today.
At first the devs may have thought, “oh, alright, we’ll let them preview what they will loot, no big deal”. What likely happened then, however, is that looting and taking the goods decreased, as people held on to keys for a long period of time until that “magic” drop came that gave them everything or almost everything they needed.
What this did was stall the intended economy sinks and expenditures for the player as they might only spend $ once, or not at all with currencies.
Let’s say a dungeon key cost 5k ad. Under normal circumstances, anytime a player would want to get that key for the dungeon they would spend 5k ad and go for the loot. Let’s say originally, the loot they wanted had a 10% chance of dropping. In that case the devs desired an economy where the average person would probably sink about 50-100k ad into key purchases for that loot. In the case where the player held onto the key, however, that economy sink is only 5k ad and nothing more. This led to the devs introducing all this intermediate mediocre loot like the +1 and +2 rings. They needed to expand the loot table to make drops still feel somehow impactful, while they decreased the chance of that “desired” drop to say, 2% or 1 in 50. The hope then was the economical sink would balance out, between those who waited with their one key, and those who spent resources on new ones each time.
This approach was likely deemed untenable, as it pissed off both the people who spent resources (“I’m just getting HAMSTER and HAMSTER again.”), and those who held their keys (“Well, still not going to use this key as this stuff is junk”). This led to both parties not running dungeons anymore, and possibly leaving.
Thus, the current solution was born. The goal was to reset and return the game economy to an equilibrium where resources are constantly being spent, and rewards are more consistently being given.
This way, if a chest loot table has an intended sink of say 50k, and a cost-per attempt of 5k, they can move the loot tables back up to 10% from 2%, and have everyone spend the intended resources.
Now, I want to make one final devil’s advocate point towards those who say that the rewards from the chest should be equal or greater to what they spend. If they are by standard, less than what you put in unless you get a good drop, is it gambling? I honestly think so, BUT, I also think this gambling method is necessary so long as the game stays primarily f2p. If a completely free player is not losing resources, what incentive do they have to invest either money or time into activities to gain more of those resources?
Let’s go back to that 5k key example. If the cost of the key and the “unlucky” reward for the key are both 5k ad, then you’re back to the same problem you had before. You get a single one-time investment, with no future growth or spending. Thus, for completely free players, the greater chance out of any loot table MUST be a loss of some sort because otherwise they have no incentive to spend any more time, money, or in-game resources to recoup their losses.
Now, an obvious solution that I WANT in light of these recent developments is to move some rewards over to VIP, like I’ve mentioned elsewhere. Give VIP players a legendary dragon key at a high rank, say 10 or above, and you then allow 2 methods of cash inflow. Either those few players who buy the keys from the zen store, just like the enchanted keys, or those more casual players who are willing to spend a little money regularly, like a subscription, but want that subscription to supplement casual gameplay costs.
Do I think this could have been communicated better? Absolutely, if I am right, they should be explaining this to folks. I can understand it being called a “bug”, however wide the disconnect with the playerbase may be, because at the current moment, it most likely is causing “unintended behavior and consequences”. But, it is poor wording at best without an explanation for the playerbase.
Now, of course if things stay the way they are now, with just the preview option gone, then yeah, things are going to suck, and they should make changes. I hope they already are, and are just leaving those things unsaid. So at best, this is just some poor communication to fix a potentially serious economic issue, and at worst, ½ of the solution to a problem. I’m cautiously optimistic, but I can certainly understand some folk’s anger.
I would agree with you, but ONLY if they bring the dungeon loots as they were on mod 2 - 4 [or 5, I can't remember well]: when defeating the last boss and opening the chest, you would get a epic gear [no blue, nor green, but purple!] and had a chance to get another purple item [look, I said A CHANCE, like 5-10%]. So, this way we could get a garanteed purple item and some other currencies/gear/weapons for your class and lvl, with a chance of another great loot.
Avestruz.Q.T.Seduz - Rogue, natural born assassin.
To above, yes, I do not support this change without loot table rebalancing. Let that be clear. If this was implemented in the current economic system it would be bad. I fully support loot table rebalancing to go along with this to give better drops more often. They (the devs) leave us to infer that it might happen, but it really needs to be clearer.
Love yourself, and focus on the rest of the madness of life later.
I can see it now. "Ah yeah we were going to increase the loot tables and drop rates the whole time...whoops! Sorry we forgot to mention it in the blog." And then they won't say what the drop rates are now or will be after the change, but it's going to be a change from like 0.01% to 0.0125% for the good items. It won't be my exact example of course, but it's going to be some BS like that. And none of this changes the fact that they lied about it being a bug.
I’m going to play devil’s advocate for a moment here, and run through some hypothetical thoughts I think may have entered into this decision.
What I think likely happened here, is you had a spiraling case of behavior and poor loot chances that led to the same behavior and worse loot chances, which is where we are today.
At first the devs may have thought, “oh, alright, we’ll let them preview what they will loot, no big deal”. What likely happened then, however, is that looting and taking the goods decreased, as people held on to keys for a long period of time until that “magic” drop came that gave them everything or almost everything they needed.
What this did was stall the intended economy sinks and expenditures for the player as they might only spend $ once, or not at all with currencies.
Let’s say a dungeon key cost 5k ad. Under normal circumstances, anytime a player would want to get that key for the dungeon they would spend 5k ad and go for the loot. Let’s say originally, the loot they wanted had a 10% chance of dropping. In that case the devs desired an economy where the average person would probably sink about 50-100k ad into key purchases for that loot. In the case where the player held onto the key, however, that economy sink is only 5k ad and nothing more. This led to the devs introducing all this intermediate mediocre loot like the +1 and +2 rings. They needed to expand the loot table to make drops still feel somehow impactful, while they decreased the chance of that “desired” drop to say, 2% or 1 in 50. The hope then was the economical sink would balance out, between those who waited with their one key, and those who spent resources on new ones each time.
This approach was likely deemed untenable, as it pissed off both the people who spent resources (“I’m just getting HAMSTER and HAMSTER again.”), and those who held their keys (“Well, still not going to use this key as this stuff is junk”). This led to both parties not running dungeons anymore, and possibly leaving.
Thus, the current solution was born. The goal was to reset and return the game economy to an equilibrium where resources are constantly being spent, and rewards are more consistently being given.
This way, if a chest loot table has an intended sink of say 50k, and a cost-per attempt of 5k, they can move the loot tables back up to 10% from 2%, and have everyone spend the intended resources.
Now, I want to make one final devil’s advocate point towards those who say that the rewards from the chest should be equal or greater to what they spend. If they are by standard, less than what you put in unless you get a good drop, is it gambling? I honestly think so, BUT, I also think this gambling method is necessary so long as the game stays primarily f2p. If a completely free player is not losing resources, what incentive do they have to invest either money or time into activities to gain more of those resources?
Let’s go back to that 5k key example. If the cost of the key and the “unlucky” reward for the key are both 5k ad, then you’re back to the same problem you had before. You get a single one-time investment, with no future growth or spending. Thus, for completely free players, the greater chance out of any loot table MUST be a loss of some sort because otherwise they have no incentive to spend any more time, money, or in-game resources to recoup their losses.
Now, an obvious solution that I WANT in light of these recent developments is to move some rewards over to VIP, like I’ve mentioned elsewhere. Give VIP players a legendary dragon key at a high rank, say 10 or above, and you then allow 2 methods of cash inflow. Either those few players who buy the keys from the zen store, just like the enchanted keys, or those more casual players who are willing to spend a little money regularly, like a subscription, but want that subscription to supplement casual gameplay costs.
Do I think this could have been communicated better? Absolutely, if I am right, they should be explaining this to folks. I can understand it being called a “bug”, however wide the disconnect with the playerbase may be, because at the current moment, it most likely is causing “unintended behavior and consequences”. But, it is poor wording at best without an explanation for the playerbase.
Now, of course if things stay the way they are now, with just the preview option gone, then yeah, things are going to suck, and they should make changes. I hope they already are, and are just leaving those things unsaid. So at best, this is just some poor communication to fix a potentially serious economic issue, and at worst, ½ of the solution to a problem. I’m cautiously optimistic, but I can certainly understand some folk’s anger.
You seriously expect people to believe it was a bug?????? Come on we aren't stupid!!! That is just an insult to our intelligence that you would even say that. Be honest about it
Good job xeltey! Your first post as a Community Manager Administrator and you are now one of the most hated Cryptic employees around! Bravo!!
The thing that irks me the most about this is the pathetic drop rates of anything decent in those chests. And now you want to literally shovel that $#!^ down our throats without an option to say no thanks? My grinding and ridiculous 20 hour wait for a single key to be made is worth more than that stupid junk in the chest!
I guess it's time to see if the guild/alliance is looking into a new MMO to play/spend money on...
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
We could all migrate to a new mmo and even if it's dead our numbers can revive it and make it enjoyabke. Alliances will allow us all to stay together.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Shame! The rng in this game is already complete <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and now I can't decide if I want the 99.99% <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> loot? Bug? GTFO. It's a clear money grab and the fact that you try and lie makes it more insulting. You want to "fix" this supposed "bug" fine. Lower the zen price on all key's. Legendary Dragon's not by 50 zen more like 5 for 100z. Lower the production costs and time off all keys as well. How about you raise drop rates as well since it's all a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> shoot. I quit Destiny because it was all money grab and this will soon follow unless something changes. I have no problem spending money just don't treat me like an arsehole for doing it.
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Yeah for the first time in nearly 3 years i have logged off after an hour in the game, was mostly chatting with a friend, didn't do anything just my daily on 1 toon. I have never missed a day, except for job or hospital stay, i have even logged on during holidays.
Tonight i felt burnt out, had no desire to do anything at all. When you don't see the end of the tunnel it is really hard to keep yourself focused.
It's like the phrase we have about the bad teacher, which says you don't hate the subject, you hate the teacher.
I will stay, but if these changes go live i will have to limit my playtime and search something as my primary. RNG in RNG in RNG and etc. meh.
I did miss a lot of good movies and series, time to catch up, while waiting for the outcome here.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
1) The new raid next mod has 3 chests that all require legendary dragon keys. In theory, you could get your 3 free keys per day and open them all once, but due to point 2, this is not a feasible way of acquiring what you need.
2) In order to upgrade the new artifact weapons, you need legendary marks. These conveniently will drop in the chests in the new raid. They likely have a drop rate similar to legendary rings or even lower. Either way, they are bound to account, so you can't even sell them assuming you get them, or buy them from someone who does. So, if your RNG sucks, then tough luck, you are not upgrading your gear.
3) The new raid is significantly easier than Fangbreaker Island. Even the 3.2k version is, I would say, as hard as edemo. This makes no sense standing by itself, considering how high the requirements ARE.
4) PVP players will pay for any advantage in PVP. Even if this means spending 10's of thousands of zen. The new weapons offer a clear advantage, they are also conveniently nigh on impossible to acquire unless you intend to spend a lot of zen on legendary dragon keys.
Conclusion? The new raid is so easy because it is meant to be farmable for pvp players. If they had made it too difficult for pvp players and whales to run, then they wouldn't spend money on the keys they would need to open the chests to get the marks. Conveniently, if those pvp players are willing to fork out 10k zen or so for legendary dragon keys, they can have their fully upgraded new shiny weapons...Which will be their new, "ambush ring" or "drains" to give them that extra competitive edge that they all really crave having.
In fact, the only sort of compromise I could see would be one where not only were the rewards in the chests improved, but the per diam bonus extended to epic chests also now extended to Legendary dragon keys, and we'd be given at least one key per diam with a Vip account. That would be manageable and would mitigate the blow considerable, and maybe give you back an ounce of good will which, by the looks of this unanimously negative vocal outcry, you guys will be sorely needing. Success of f2p communities relies, believe it or not, entirely on goodwill, and happy costumers will pay gladly if they're enjoying themselves, even if they don't need to. Disgruntled players who feel backstabbed just leave and generate bad publicity.
Failing that, you can always work on fixing bugs. Like the horrible stuttering, freezes, pop in/out of creature for no apparent reason, and just generally optimising your game to all the platforms. That's certainly a much more productive use of everyone's time.
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
The black hand will find ways for you to open chest without spending keys.
We always do....
And, joining the chorus: Dungeon keys are VERY EXPENSIVE: take a KR key, for example. An hour of time doing 6 quests across 2 zones, then 20 hours of waiting, and it pops a single KR key. In the chest in KR, you most likely get a single item worth 2000AD and some garbage worth nothing. 2200 with VIP, 3300 if you've got spare Invoke Bonus left. For an hour of my play time farming up the materials to make the key, I get two things: 3K AD, and DISAPPOINTMENT.
Let's consider: how much AD I could earn in that hour if instead of farming Icewind Dale quests to get mats for a KR key, I ran two dungeons and two skirmishes each on two characters? About 40,000, right, with invoke bonus, not counting any loot from any chests at all? If you think that's unrealistically fast for 8 runs (its not), halve it, and I'm still making 20KAD. Hell, quarter it, and I'm still making WAY MORE spending my time running KR with NO KR key than I am getting KR keys!
Greater Demon Keys? Cost 300 Faezress and 20 hours. 300 Faezress is two gold Edemo runs (yeah, you need to run it AT LEAST TWICE to get enough material to make ONE key! And that key is required in CN, too!), and the chest contains, 95% of the time, that same 3K AD.
People are using the "Decline" button BUILT INTO THE INTERFACE and getting the decline action CODED INTO THE GAME DELIBERATELY to avoid spending expensive keys to get worthless junk. And it's not a bug. Don't call this "patching a bug" or "fixing an exploit", because there's no way a decline button and a "close window, return key, do not pick up loot" option is an UNINTENTIONAL ADDITION.
You're "concerned" that players are DOING THE THING YOU SPECIFICALLY MADE POSSIBLE because the loot in the chest is usually garbage and the keys required to open the chest are REALLY EXPENSIVE, TIMEWISE? I can see two major things to be concerned about, but blaming players for not spending massive amounts of time to pick up garbage is not one of them. It's the "massive amounts of time" and the "garbage", not the "players choosing" that's the problem.
What I think likely happened here, is you had a spiraling case of behavior and poor loot chances that led to the same behavior and worse loot chances, which is where we are today.
At first the devs may have thought, “oh, alright, we’ll let them preview what they will loot, no big deal”. What likely happened then, however, is that looting and taking the goods decreased, as people held on to keys for a long period of time until that “magic” drop came that gave them everything or almost everything they needed.
What this did was stall the intended economy sinks and expenditures for the player as they might only spend $ once, or not at all with currencies.
Let’s say a dungeon key cost 5k ad. Under normal circumstances, anytime a player would want to get that key for the dungeon they would spend 5k ad and go for the loot. Let’s say originally, the loot they wanted had a 10% chance of dropping. In that case the devs desired an economy where the average person would probably sink about 50-100k ad into key purchases for that loot. In the case where the player held onto the key, however, that economy sink is only 5k ad and nothing more. This led to the devs introducing all this intermediate mediocre loot like the +1 and +2 rings. They needed to expand the loot table to make drops still feel somehow impactful, while they decreased the chance of that “desired” drop to say, 2% or 1 in 50. The hope then was the economical sink would balance out, between those who waited with their one key, and those who spent resources on new ones each time.
This approach was likely deemed untenable, as it pissed off both the people who spent resources (“I’m just getting HAMSTER and HAMSTER again.”), and those who held their keys (“Well, still not going to use this key as this stuff is junk”). This led to both parties not running dungeons anymore, and possibly leaving.
Thus, the current solution was born. The goal was to reset and return the game economy to an equilibrium where resources are constantly being spent, and rewards are more consistently being given.
This way, if a chest loot table has an intended sink of say 50k, and a cost-per attempt of 5k, they can move the loot tables back up to 10% from 2%, and have everyone spend the intended resources.
Now, I want to make one final devil’s advocate point towards those who say that the rewards from the chest should be equal or greater to what they spend. If they are by standard, less than what you put in unless you get a good drop, is it gambling? I honestly think so, BUT, I also think this gambling method is necessary so long as the game stays primarily f2p.
If a completely free player is not losing resources, what incentive do they have to invest either money or time into activities to gain more of those resources?
Let’s go back to that 5k key example. If the cost of the key and the “unlucky” reward for the key are both 5k ad, then you’re back to the same problem you had before. You get a single one-time investment, with no future growth or spending. Thus, for completely free players, the greater chance out of any loot table MUST be a loss of some sort because otherwise they have no incentive to spend any more time, money, or in-game resources to recoup their losses.
Now, an obvious solution that I WANT in light of these recent developments is to move some rewards over to VIP, like I’ve mentioned elsewhere. Give VIP players a legendary dragon key at a high rank, say 10 or above, and you then allow 2 methods of cash inflow. Either those few players who buy the keys from the zen store, just like the enchanted keys, or those more casual players who are willing to spend a little money regularly, like a subscription, but want that subscription to supplement casual gameplay costs.
Do I think this could have been communicated better? Absolutely, if I am right, they should be explaining this to folks. I can understand it being called a “bug”, however wide the disconnect with the playerbase may be, because at the current moment, it most likely is causing “unintended behavior and consequences”. But, it is poor wording at best without an explanation for the playerbase.
Now, of course if things stay the way they are now, with just the preview option gone, then yeah, things are going to suck, and they should make changes. I hope they already are, and are just leaving those things unsaid. So at best, this is just some poor communication to fix a potentially serious economic issue, and at worst, ½ of the solution to a problem.
I’m cautiously optimistic, but I can certainly understand some folk’s anger.
Best wishes all,
@vandignesca
you guys are HAMSTER despicable. HAMSTER drop rate on everything, expecialy paid key chests and so you take away the chance of saving a key to not use on HAMSTER and reduce the price of paid keys by FREAKING 50 instead of turning them to 50 zen to make sence of this stupid madness.
"We are pleased to address this bug because it resolves an inequity between the minority of players who knew about it and the majority who did not, and because the Neverwinter design team will be better able to design rewards for chests going forward now that the bug has been fixed." are you serious? shamelessly spiting on the face of people who play your game.
No more AD from invoking, no more gateway so i can't use my tablet when not at home to do professions.
No more Sword coast mini game (after i spent 2 mil getting pets that would let me kick the final boss in the epic dung)
So i can get companion gear and all the fun stuff
Punishing the MAJORITY for the aspects of a few once more. Now you say it is raining but it isn't rain. They keys we have always had with the option to loot or not to loot, look back on your own patch notes. It wasn't a bug, your trying to turn NvW into p2p everyone can see it yet your still trying to keep it advertised as F2P. Your not making it impossible for the new player to get going, just like cigarettes. Your going to start killing your core people without getting the new people playing, thus your really just killing the game... this must be your goal as you keep doing it and making it worse. Maybe the company is tired of making money with this and just want to kill the game without bothering to just say that. So your trying to kill your core players as well. Well even if that is your aim, your doing it. Next comes you won't have enough money coming in to pay for the servers then game crashes all the time from lack of upkeep then everyone quits and then you have no more game. the end
Even discounting the less-fun nature of "farming key mats in a one-person zone" compared to "playing with other players", and even ignoring the stuff from the free chests, you're still losing 75-95% of your value *almost every time*.
(And also, in the process, telling people that using a prominent feature, that was touted as a feature when it was implemented, is suddenly a bannable offense. Which is a whole different kettle of lutefisk)
There's no indication in the announcement (and there's been no followup/clarification!) that they understand just how expensive campaign keys *are*, or just how lousy the chest loot really is. And your hypothetical about how cheap keys with a majority loss, minority profit, rare great profit, and very rare JACKPOT would work makes sense.... but it's not the current situation and there's no indication that the developers have *anything like that* in mind.
But that sort of explanation needs to come from the developers, not just "Hey guys, we fixed a bug!" junk that we got fed.
Also, yes, at the VERY BEST, I would still agree that what we have here is poor communication. If this change is done in the absense of other balancing changes, then yeah it sucks full HAMSTER.
However, if my speculation is correct, then I support the change along with the consequences I outlined.
― Clint Eastwood, Heartbreak Ridge
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[]Full Metal Witch[]
4149 TiL
Guild: (X1) The Legendary Outlaws
"The Best of the Best"
"Nobody does it better"
#TLO BiS
[]Full Metal Witch[]
4149 TiL
Guild: (X1) The Legendary Outlaws
"The Best of the Best"
"Nobody does it better"
#TLO BiS
The thing that irks me the most about this is the pathetic drop rates of anything decent in those chests. And now you want to literally shovel that $#!^ down our throats without an option to say no thanks? My grinding and ridiculous 20 hour wait for a single key to be made is worth more than that stupid junk in the chest!
I guess it's time to see if the guild/alliance is looking into a new MMO to play/spend money on...