lerapiso818Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 92Arc User
I don't see how DO can be better buffer/debuffer than AC. Beside AA being better than HG with high power, Battle Fervor becomes stronger than PoD at an even earlier power rating. I understand that at low IL, playing AC provide no benefit over DO if your BF can't balance the PoD loss on no adds boss, but if you've more than 20k power, I don't see how DO can compete at buffing/debuffing past this point.
That being said, I'll stay DO, I really don't like the AC playstyle (that painfull moment when you've to use BoB instead of BotS ). Even if AC is better buffer (and better dps).
DO never surpass AC in buffing, no matter on boss or trash unless u are fresh 2k il. AC scales with ur gear and stats so at endgame AC is far superior than DO.
Terrifying Insight only affect self, and a high end full crit DO fail to outdps high power AC with bonding if left uninterupted. DO dps is only useful in pvp, but it is just your preference to play what u want, so keep in peace and just play.
Your build its not optimal! You say its a buff build but you have so many wasted feats If you wan to be a buffer why use astral fury? 10% more damage to you? Piercing light its another waste if you don't want dps, you barely have 1k armor penetration, why do you use piercing light? another waste? If you want fire of the gods to trigger bears your sins, you can put 1 point on it instead of 5.
Men all the builds have already been created, if you fix your own build you will more likely end with one of those builds!!
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
DO Righteous is better debuffer thanks to PoD and a tendency for higher crit (using Fire of the Gods for more Bear your Sins). I would imagine but haven't tested that DO is more effective for Condemning Gaze because of a generally higher dps focus.
AC Righteous is better buffer thanks to BoB, damage mitigation via AA, and of course Gift of Haste.
All that said, I believe that AC is out performing DO in group play atm. I am however sticking with DO because... well I anticipate the nerf bat coming for the DC yet again and the focus will be to decrease immortality (note forum pvp crybabies) and power sharing (I see the ITF change as a move toward fixed buff feats instead of variable based on stats and synergies. I think its scales better for lazy developers). There doesn't appear to be anyone at cryptic that truly plays DC and would act as our champion in reword discussions. And finally modifing my build to the most recent BiS is expensive and I do not intend to chase the new BiS anymore.
I forsee the nerf bat coming too and it upsets me. Feel like we as DCs get shafted more often than we get a thrown a bone. A separation of the Power share in favor of non-scaling buffs would fall in line with the GFs ITF nerd but I'm still gunna be pretty upset if it becomes some static buff. Removing abilitiesthat are tied to gear like the Power share would remove the drive to get better gear period as what would be the point in dropping millions upon millions of AD to go from 3k iLevel to 4k if there is zero performance change for a buffer, debuffer, or a healer. The only build that would see a very marginal increase would be DPS focused.
Also, I understand the DO has better debuffing capabilites thanks to PoD but my point in mentioning anything was to point out that (after having done the theoretical maths, then going in game and confirming the theories via tedious manual testing, because no ACT for me) the AC paragon has a higher group DPS increase potential, period. For every situation, assuming BiS geared DCs, trash clearing, boss kills, AC trumps DO in increasing group effectiveness, period.
Also, while the AC paragon encourages less crit by way of encouraging dumping stats into Power, that doesn't necessarily mean that DO has better crit or that any substantial differences could be drawn from having higher crit even. I as a almost pure Power stacking AC am still sporting a substantial 74% crit chance. Oh and in case you missed it @putzboy78 , Fab and m-his anonymous cohort, publicly released their full debuff spreadsheet and in it there was some details about how they have discovered that Bear Your Sins doesn't actually provide ANY enemy debuff (rather it increases attackers effective RI% against the target but that's irrelevant and provides no additional benefit if attacker is already at RI% cap... per how it was explained to me) so that's all the more reason why having an increased crit chance will not impact group DPS via (the currently broken) Bear Your Sins.
Now I still feel like the most optimal group setup is to run 2 DCs (and a CW, haven't made up my mind on what best tank is but still leaning towards GF). One AC and one DO as there's enough buffs and debuffs available for both builds to exist in the same group with zero/minimal loss in group buffing potential due to overlaps. So I'm not trying to say DO is irrelevant. That's just not true, DO is still very very relevant and highly desirable. It's just a personal pet peeve of mine when misinformation or opinions are stated as facts and it's a personal character flaw of mine in that I feel compelled to correct people...
Member of Look Good Play Good Pup - Level 70 4.2k Buff/Debuff AC DC XBL GT: TehPuppy
I forsee the nerf bat coming too and it upsets me. Feel like we as DCs get shafted more often than we get a thrown a bone. A separation of the Power share in favor of non-scaling buffs would fall in line with the GFs ITF nerd but I'm still gunna be pretty upset if it becomes some static buff. Removing abilitiesthat are tied to gear like the Power share would remove the drive to get better gear period as what would be the point in dropping millions upon millions of AD to go from 3k iLevel to 4k if there is zero performance change for a buffer, debuffer, or a healer. The only build that would see a very marginal increase would be DPS focused.
I'm really hoping they dont use that same line of thought of putting our buffs "in line" with the GF's. I feel like that the GF change was needed as, if that change wasn't made, the GF's would be sticking their nose into too many roles (1 of 2 possible tanks, a top DPS, and a top buffer). Reducing their buffing ability still leaves them with 2 very desirable roles (while still providing AND a reason to constantly upgrade their gear (to be better tank/do better DPS).
If they redesigned the game where "true" healing paths were relevant in the post 3k world, I'd be willing to accept semi-substantial nerfs to buffing/debuffing. But as it stands, buffs/debuffs are ALL that keep us relevant. I dont want buffs to my own personal DPS to make me competitive in that area of the game. I like my niche. While I think the mod 10 nerfs to power sharing were necessary, it seems in post mod 10 that we are good in terms of buffing. As you mentioned, if they removed or nerfed our power sharing abilities too much, that would make us undesirable for most groups and provide little incentive to chase upgrades.
IMO, they should alter our feat paths and move the buffs/debuffs from righteous into the healing trees and/or introduce new ones (maybe virtuous is healing/buff and faithful is healing/debuff) and then make righteous a "pure" DPS path. But that's unlikely to happen I suppose.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
I forsee the nerf bat coming too and it upsets me. Feel like we as DCs get shafted more often than we get a thrown a bone. A separation of the Power share in favor of non-scaling buffs would fall in line with the GFs ITF nerd but I'm still gunna be pretty upset if it becomes some static buff. Removing abilitiesthat are tied to gear like the Power share would remove the drive to get better gear period as what would be the point in dropping millions upon millions of AD to go from 3k iLevel to 4k if there is zero performance change for a buffer, debuffer, or a healer. The only build that would see a very marginal increase would be DPS focused.
Also, I understand the DO has better debuffing capabilites thanks to PoD but my point in mentioning anything was to point out that (after having done the theoretical maths, then going in game and confirming the theories via tedious manual testing, because no ACT for me) the AC paragon has a higher group DPS increase potential, period. For every situation, assuming BiS geared DCs, trash clearing, boss kills, AC trumps DO in increasing group effectiveness, period.
Also, while the AC paragon encourages less crit by way of encouraging dumping stats into Power, that doesn't necessarily mean that DO has better crit or that any substantial differences could be drawn from having higher crit even. I as a almost pure Power stacking AC am still sporting a substantial 74% crit chance. Oh and in case you missed it @putzboy78 , Fab and m-his anonymous cohort, publicly released their full debuff spreadsheet and in it there was some details about how they have discovered that Bear Your Sins doesn't actually provide ANY enemy debuff (rather it increases attackers effective RI% against the target but that's irrelevant and provides no additional benefit if attacker is already at RI% cap... per how it was explained to me) so that's all the more reason why having an increased crit chance will not impact group DPS via (the currently broken) Bear Your Sins.
Now I still feel like the most optimal group setup is to run 2 DCs (and a CW, haven't made up my mind on what best tank is but still leaning towards GF). One AC and one DO as there's enough buffs and debuffs available for both builds to exist in the same group with zero/minimal loss in group buffing potential due to overlaps. So I'm not trying to say DO is irrelevant. That's just not true, DO is still very very relevant and highly desirable. It's just a personal pet peeve of mine when misinformation or opinions are stated as facts and it's a personal character flaw of mine in that I feel compelled to correct people...
Don't think you corrected me at all, you supported what I said
I forsee the nerf bat coming too and it upsets me. Feel like we as DCs get shafted more often than we get a thrown a bone. A separation of the Power share in favor of non-scaling buffs would fall in line with the GFs ITF nerd but I'm still gunna be pretty upset if it becomes some static buff. Removing abilitiesthat are tied to gear like the Power share would remove the drive to get better gear period as what would be the point in dropping millions upon millions of AD to go from 3k iLevel to 4k if there is zero performance change for a buffer, debuffer, or a healer. The only build that would see a very marginal increase would be DPS focused.
I'm really hoping they dont use that same line of thought of putting our buffs "in line" with the GF's. I feel like that the GF change was needed as, if that change wasn't made, the GF's would be sticking their nose into too many roles (1 of 2 possible tanks, a top DPS, and a top buffer). Reducing their buffing ability still leaves them with 2 very desirable roles (while still providing AND a reason to constantly upgrade their gear (to be better tank/do better DPS).
If they redesigned the game where "true" healing paths were relevant in the post 3k world, I'd be willing to accept semi-substantial nerfs to buffing/debuffing. But as it stands, buffs/debuffs are ALL that keep us relevant. I dont want buffs to my own personal DPS to make me competitive in that area of the game. I like my niche. While I think the mod 10 nerfs to power sharing were necessary, it seems in post mod 10 that we are good in terms of buffing. As you mentioned, if they removed or nerfed our power sharing abilities too much, that would make us undesirable for most groups and provide little incentive to chase upgrades.
IMO, they should alter our feat paths and move the buffs/debuffs from righteous into the healing trees and/or introduce new ones (maybe virtuous is healing/buff and faithful is healing/debuff) and then make righteous a "pure" DPS path. But that's unlikely to happen I suppose.
I don't think anyone would say the GFs weren't overpower, but the problem is the way the nerf was initiated which gave no room for scaling through stats. What they did was turn it into a person buffing their personal dps with stats and using feats/powers to buff party. Further to that removing synergy between classes sucks because it removes some of the creativity in the game.
Also I don't want a pure dps path, then you are in direct competition with GWF and effectively useless to go to high ilvls. Virtuous is basically the buff/healer tree already, faithful is the mitigation/healer tree, and righteous is the debuff/dps tree. I think it makes a lot of sense as is.
I cant really comment on the Mod 10 GF's beyond what I've read (PS4 player), but at least on PS4 they were "good" damage, great tanks, and great buffers. IMO if they were going to increase GF damage, then something had to give. I do agree it would have been better if they had kept some sort of scale to the buff and/or synergy with our defensive buffs (within reason).
I don't particularly care for a pure DPS path myself. Just trying to think of a reason to pick virtuous/faithful. I guess you can say they have buff/debuff properties within them, and they do, but no one takes those paths to be a buff/debuffer (doesn't seem like people take those paths period). Most just dip into them 2 or maybe 3 rows but are still basically righteous specced. I was just thinking they should make them more viable (by adding more buffs/debuffs to the paths). Nevertheless, I have enjoyed feeling "wanted" in groups for my buffs and fear nerfs will change that. Its a nice role considering heals seem completely irrelevant even without BIS gear. I already kinda fear the buffing decrease of Mod 10 will be too much (though I completely understand why it was needed to be looked at). Any further nerfs though and I think I may become a waste of a group spot.
But for now I suppose, I'll just keep on keeping on and see what the rebalance brings.
If you're really looking for shorter encounter cooldowns I'd recommend trying an INT+CHA build and full recovery on bondings pet
I don't think it's a good idea. I'm AC DC Pow/Rec Build (25 cha and 13 int). My base recovery is 12K: with bonding runestones, mount bonuses and whatever you want to add, there'se no real benefit in going INT+ CHA because you have to sacrifice something else that is more important. Recovery is easy to stack in many ways. This is my recovery-cooldown simulator (but inside there's the contribution and the knowledge from other players): https://www.desmos.com/calculator/ijnxsm8fat
It has some stories to tell.
Concerninng the AP monster, I can provide info. When everything is on, I touch +135% AP gain, starting from a +99% base line: it's a lot and maybe too much. There's only one benefit in having such high value: flexibility. You can unslot your DC sigil artifact, your can store your holy burning set in your inventory, you don't need a flail snail anymore, but you can invest in something different. In my case I've spent some time to get and upgrade the vanguard banner while I've now the twisted weapon set, I've downgraded gift of haste (2/5) to give FoGs more points. FBI forced me to go back a bit, but right now I've found a good balance.
I've already tested AA + HG at the same time as many others already did.Imo it's not very effective for two reasons: - the AA uptime is short and if you're in combat even shorter most of the times. - When HG is on, your AP gain is close to zero unless you're recharged by someone else (but the AP recharge is still slow). Without investing time and resources to "feel the power of AA + HG", having 2 DCs is better, easier and faster.
I don't enter into the old DO vs AC discussion. You can arrange your DC as you like and if it works there's nothing else to add. Few players will look at their timers to check if the run was 80 seconds faster because you're AC instead of DO (or the opposite). The DC builds' patterns are well known as it's well known today what you have to do if you want to focus more on dps instead of healing or something else. @diogene0: thank you for your videos. While I don't always agree 100% with you, it's a big contribution. As I've already told, I hope that your work will not be frustrated by the incoming change.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
I forsee the nerf bat coming too and it upsets me. Feel like we as DCs get shafted more often than we get a thrown a bone. A separation of the Power share in favor of non-scaling buffs would fall in line with the GFs ITF nerd but I'm still gunna be pretty upset if it becomes some static buff. Removing abilitiesthat are tied to gear like the Power share would remove the drive to get better gear period as what would be the point in dropping millions upon millions of AD to go from 3k iLevel to 4k if there is zero performance change for a buffer, debuffer, or a healer. The only build that would see a very marginal increase would be DPS focused.
Also, I understand the DO has better debuffing capabilites thanks to PoD but my point in mentioning anything was to point out that (after having done the theoretical maths, then going in game and confirming the theories via tedious manual testing, because no ACT for me) the AC paragon has a higher group DPS increase potential, period. For every situation, assuming BiS geared DCs, trash clearing, boss kills, AC trumps DO in increasing group effectiveness, period.
Also, while the AC paragon encourages less crit by way of encouraging dumping stats into Power, that doesn't necessarily mean that DO has better crit or that any substantial differences could be drawn from having higher crit even. I as a almost pure Power stacking AC am still sporting a substantial 74% crit chance. Oh and in case you missed it @putzboy78 , Fab and m-his anonymous cohort, publicly released their full debuff spreadsheet and in it there was some details about how they have discovered that Bear Your Sins doesn't actually provide ANY enemy debuff (rather it increases attackers effective RI% against the target but that's irrelevant and provides no additional benefit if attacker is already at RI% cap... per how it was explained to me) so that's all the more reason why having an increased crit chance will not impact group DPS via (the currently broken) Bear Your Sins.
Now I still feel like the most optimal group setup is to run 2 DCs (and a CW, haven't made up my mind on what best tank is but still leaning towards GF). One AC and one DO as there's enough buffs and debuffs available for both builds to exist in the same group with zero/minimal loss in group buffing potential due to overlaps. So I'm not trying to say DO is irrelevant. That's just not true, DO is still very very relevant and highly desirable. It's just a personal pet peeve of mine when misinformation or opinions are stated as facts and it's a personal character flaw of mine in that I feel compelled to correct people...
No AC doesn't have a higher buff potential. Due to the flat power gain formula, the higher the base power of your allies is, the less you increase their damage. I'd argue that with a BiS party, HG is much better than AA, because HG multiplies with other buffs, and because AA shares a flat amount of power that gives less return to BiS parties. That being said, AA is good especially if the DC has much higher stats than the rest of his party.
The only reason not to use HG is when you play with a SW, because SWs tyrannical curse doesn't benefit from HG unless you use some sort of weird combo that doesn't make sense.
There was a thread about this on the forums with all the maths, explaining why HG is better for BiS buff parties. I can't find it anymore. I'd do the math again if I had time for it, but maybe someone will find it and post it again.
If you're really looking for shorter encounter cooldowns I'd recommend trying an INT+CHA build and full recovery on bondings pet
I don't think it's a good idea. I'm AC DC Pow/Rec Build (25 cha and 13 int). My base recovery is 12K: with bonding runestones, mount bonuses and whatever you want to add, there'se no real benefit in going INT+ CHA because you have to sacrifice something else that is more important. Recovery is easy to stack in many ways. This is my recovery-cooldown simulator (but inside there's the contribution and the knowledge from other players): https://www.desmos.com/calculator/ijnxsm8fat
It has some stories to tell.
Concerninng the AP monster, I can provide info. When everything is on, I touch +135% AP gain, starting from a +99% base line: it's a lot and maybe too much. There's only one benefit in having such high value: flexibility. You can unslot your DC sigil artifact, your can store your holy burning set in your inventory, you don't need a flail snail anymore, but you can invest in something different. In my case I've spent some time to get and upgrade the vanguard banner while I've now the twisted weapon set, I've downgraded gift of haste (2/5) to give FoGs more points. FBI forced me to go back a bit, but right now I've found a good balance.
I've already tested AA + HG at the same time as many others already did.Imo it's not very effective for two reasons: - the AA uptime is short and if you're in combat even shorter most of the times. - When HG is on, your AP gain is close to zero unless you're recharged by someone else (but the AP recharge is still slow). Without investing time and resources to "feel the power of AA + HG", having 2 DCs is better, easier and faster.
I don't enter into the old DO vs AC discussion. You can arrange your DC as you like and if it works there's nothing else to add. Few players will look at their timers to check if the run was 80 seconds faster because you're AC instead of DO (or the opposite). The DC builds' patterns are well known as it's well known today what you have to do if you want to focus more on dps instead of healing or something else. @diogene0: thank you for your videos. While I don't always agree 100% with you, it's a big contribution. As I've already told, I hope that your work will not be frustrated by the incoming change.
It's not wasted. Working on the DC class helped me developing an efficient testing methodology and helped me trimming the fat when doing data collection. TBH so far the findings are ugly. It's so ugly the class is barely testable. It's a miracle it's playable, but mostly because our very long bugs are immensely beneficial. There are too many to list them. I have barely explored more than 15% of the mechanics, yet I have listed more bugs than you could find on the SW class...
Which is why I'm putting my DC guide on slow mode, and will shift content towards how the class is played rather than all the theorical mumbo-jumbo. That's what most players need anyway. In the meantime I can work on some cool stuff I need for my other character with the practice I got from banging my head on a wall because one more DC bug invalidated hours of testing.
That being said, I do hope we get some fixing this round, and I do hope AA gets nerfed eventually. I'm not too opposed to power sharing, even if it should be toned down a bit, as it gets less and less interesting with increasing power creep. What I don't like is the damage immunity. This part should be enemy public #1, along with the pally bubble. These are the most common cheesing tools, and ignoring game mechanics isn't cool.
Don't think you corrected me at all, you supported what I said
I didn't mean that in context of talking to you silly. I meant it in context of constantly nit picking Dio's work. I feel bad for pointing out that he got stuff wrong but, well, he got a lot of stuff wrong.
No AC doesn't have a higher buff potential. Due to the flat power gain formula, the higher the base power of your allies is, the less you increase their damage. I'd argue that with a BiS party, HG is much better than AA, because HG multiplies with other buffs, and because AA shares a flat amount of power that gives less return to BiS parties. That being said, AA is good especially if the DC has much higher stats than the rest of his party.
The only reason not to use HG is when you play with a SW, because SWs tyrannical curse doesn't benefit from HG unless you use some sort of weird combo that doesn't make sense.
There was a thread about this on the forums with all the maths, explaining why HG is better for BiS buff parties. I can't find it anymore. I'd do the math again if I had time for it, but maybe someone will find it and post it again.
The post going into detail about it is over here and if you actually took the time to read it more carefully you'd realize that you're still pretty mistaken. AA is better than HG particularly when assuming BiS parties. BiS DPS players tend to have between 25k and 40k Power, but for the sake of illustrating just how wrong you are, let's assume that a BiS player has 60k Power. If you take a quick peek over at that link Fabricant goes and breaks it down for us. In order for AA to be better than HG to a player that has 60k Power, AA needs to add 35k Power. 35k Power is the total power increase needed, if the AC is using AA properly that means that both the player and his companion were hit. The player receives 100% the 50% shared Power from the DC, obviously, as does the companion. BUT due to Bonding runestone mechanics and the Legendary Companion bonus, the companion then turns around and gives 285%+15% of it's new Power stat to the player, which results in a total increase of 400% of the 50% Power shared via AA. Which means, if you do the math backwards, 35k / 4 = 8,750 * 2 = 17,500. So an AC DC with a mere 17.5k Power is able to produce an AA that is just as strong as HG. Most AC DCs have well over that amount of Power, particularly at BiS levels. I am still not personally at BiS but my DC already has a base line of 30.1k Power (no buffs from anything) which means the only way HG would be better for me to use is if the person I am buffing has a Power stat of over 95k before I use AA.
Saying HG is better because it multiplies against other buffs but a Power increase doesn't is also wrong. I'm really not trying to pick on you here but that's just not how it works. Sure HG is multiplicative against other buffs, but the Power multiplier, is also a part of that equation and it is also multiplied against those buffs. It's not an additive increase to overall DPS, it's just multiplicative in a different section of the damage formula.
But to continue my point, DO DC vs AC DC as to who is the better buffer comes down to more than just what Daily you use, even if AA is better than HG. You must also factor in PoD, Foresight feated with Benefit of Foresight, Blessing of Battle feated with Battle Fervor. Which when considering those things as well, will make it so the DO DC buffs party by DR by 5% more than AC, but AC DC buffs party DPS in the neighborhood of 35% more (that number will vary depending if PoD is used in empowered and what base Power stat all those in the party have, but for rough estimations it's about that).
TBH so far the findings are ugly. It's so ugly the class is barely testable. It's a miracle it's playable, but mostly because our very long bugs are immensely beneficial. There are too many to list them. I have barely explored more than 15% of the mechanics, yet I have listed more bugs than you could find on the SW class...
I see you keep saying this, but given the large amount of inaccuracies in your statements so far, I'm inclined to not really believe you. I apologize sincerely if that statement comes off as harsh or condescending as I'm not trying to be mean here. Just calling it like I see it.. You make several untrue statements that I can (and in some cases have) prove inaccurate. Then make veiled secretive "other stuff is broken but I won't tell you what it is or how it's broken" statements and expect me to just trust you?
Member of Look Good Play Good Pup - Level 70 4.2k Buff/Debuff AC DC XBL GT: TehPuppy
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
I cant really comment on the Mod 10 GF's beyond what I've read (PS4 player), but at least on PS4 they were "good" damage, great tanks, and great buffers. IMO if they were going to increase GF damage, then something had to give. I do agree it would have been better if they had kept some sort of scale to the buff and/or synergy with our defensive buffs (within reason).
I don't particularly care for a pure DPS path myself. Just trying to think of a reason to pick virtuous/faithful. I guess you can say they have buff/debuff properties within them, and they do, but no one takes those paths to be a buff/debuffer (doesn't seem like people take those paths period). Most just dip into them 2 or maybe 3 rows but are still basically righteous specced. I was just thinking they should make them more viable (by adding more buffs/debuffs to the paths). Nevertheless, I have enjoyed feeling "wanted" in groups for my buffs and fear nerfs will change that. Its a nice role considering heals seem completely irrelevant even without BIS gear. I already kinda fear the buffing decrease of Mod 10 will be too much (though I completely understand why it was needed to be looked at). Any further nerfs though and I think I may become a waste of a group spot.
But for now I suppose, I'll just keep on keeping on and see what the rebalance brings.
Faithful is still the meta spec in pvp and the best cleric spec for low ilvl group play.
Virtuous was very popular until they nerfed the AP buffing to a point that their was no advantage to having the virtuous capstone over other capstones. Some people still play virt... but they are rare. Virtuous certainly needs a rework.
There are some people crying for a DC nerf which is ridiculous. The only reason for a dc nerf cry should be because it is taking away from other classes getting in parties. Which their should be at least one spot in parties dedicated to either an OP heal or dc (note that is the requirement to enter a dungeon via public queue so its at least the intention by the devs). Nerfing buffs and debuffs is a dangerous game. We must be able to show that we add value greater than a dps else the rise of full dps parties will become popular again and yes there was a time when a DC had a hard time getting into a dungeon even when we could buff dps over 25% with HG (25%*4 = 100% which means we provided more group dps than an additional dps would have). So basically the contribution to party dps probably has to at least double that of an additional DPS in order to reliably get into dungeons. At somepoint temp sws will rise again in popularity (with continued stats more lifesteal becomes available). When they first arrived on the scene they could out heal us (but no clutch heals) and they have more dps potential than we do. Which puts us at more competition for healing roles.
As it is I provide roughly 198% efficiency in a dungeon run, it can spike larger but on average it is 198% efficiency as a DO/DC. So if the nerf something they'd have to be selective as to what because DO/DC is already on the borderline of being unwelcome.
No AC doesn't have a higher buff potential. Due to the flat power gain formula, the higher the base power of your allies is, the less you increase their damage. I'd argue that with a BiS party, HG is much better than AA, because HG multiplies with other buffs, and because AA shares a flat amount of power that gives less return to BiS parties. That being said, AA is good especially if the DC has much higher stats than the rest of his party.
AC has access to HG so even if HG outperforms AA in your scenario it doesn't give DO an advantage over AC. And yes there was a thread about wether AA outperforms HG and it was determined that it doesn't until you have at least 30K power and then it depends on the power of the members in your party. However, many end game AC DCs are stacking much much more power than that. SO AA is optional but AC still has BoB and GoH.
I think the challenge with the power sharing is similar to the early days of mod 6 when dc had infinite dailys. You basically become a one trick pony where your entire focus becomes on BoB and proc'ing AA to buff power. It can be fun for a few runs but it could get very old quick, even if its what the parties demand.
In the end it all boils down to AA. The only things that have kept AA untouched this long were its relative obscurity and the dev's propensity for taking their time when making class power changes. But cat's out of the bag and change is imminent etc etc.
The simplest solution to the AC vs DO problem would be to change back Divine Armor so that the DC remains able to generate AP while it's up. This changes the meta somewhat, since it gives DO a go-to daily for defense (while also being an option for AC).
Changing Divine Armor so that the defensive bonuses are stronger and changing Brand of the Sun so that it generates more divinity than BoB spam (its ridiculous how much utility BoB has, BotS should simply be an AoE) would create a new meta between DC paragons, with DO being the party defensive/caster offensive-type DC and AC being the party offensive/caster defensive-type DC. HG should ideally be the end-game for party offense considering how much of hassle it is to keep up, for both DO/AC.
The current power stacking meta for DCs is definitely a nerf waiting to happen, though I suspect the change will be something as simple as AA no longer allowing the caster to generate AP for a certain duration.
Virtuous AC remains perfectly viable in a large part because it has access to both Righteous and Virtuous feats, specifically feats like Battle Fervor and Weapons of Light. Faithful, for obvious reasons, can only choose one. Virtuous' healing also works as mitigation, especially against non-fatal hits. On better geared DCs each HoT tick from Virtuous is massive enough to bring someone to full in a second. GoF rounds it off nicely. It doesn't need a rework, just some tweaking for the DO path.
Post edited by tyrtallow on
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In the end it all boils down to AA. The only things that have kept AA untouched this long were its relative obscurity and the dev's propensity for taking their time when making class power changes. But cat's out of the bag and change is imminent etc etc.
They should be very careful about AA. It has been there forever and silently, are you sure that AA is THE problem and not the bonding runestones? Without the interaction with the bondings, AA provides a mediocre-to-low power buff and it's designed to be a defensive power.
Virtuous needs a major rework imo.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
AA can give you a 10k power buff even without BiS gear and AFAIK it ignores bondings. You should do a bit more research.
It has not been there forever and the change to other dailies only occurred in mod 5.
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AA ignores bonding? Please explain how a DC can reach 100k++++ power.
It's funny that you're quoting from a thread that also says:
btw @illhora a little update to this thread, the power transferred by bonding stones does NOT get distributed by AA, although the power transferred by augments does. This means that unless you can achieve a high enough power without them, HG is pretty much always better.
The explanation for why you can reach 100k is also included in the thread, by way of an interesting interaction of feats and powers that is obviously not intended. I trust you can find @lerapiso818's post on your own. And I'm repeating myself all over again: do your research. Or maybe just read better.
What's your point? The AA you now know was introduced in the game in May 2015, which was around the same time I posted this: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/4339556?sso=eyJuYW1lIjoiIiwicGhvdG91cmwiOiIiLCJjbGllbnRfaWQiOiIxNDQzOTY4OTgxIn0=+98c54bc146fe2c6de901a669b24a5151b3c9ef81+1475995452+hmacsha1 With some further testing it didn't take a genius to figure out what I had stumbled into. I was chain-spamming HG's/DA's using an action point build pre-nerf using any combination of gear/BI/alchemy potions long before people actually made cleric build guides so it was a natural transition. And then mod 6 arrived. Whether AA was "touched" or not is irrelevant, the meta had changed and the DC was a new class. AA was a new power with a new role. It's like looking at a bullet in a museum and that same bullet lodged in someone else's brain. It's the same bullet, yeah, but in the words of the great Craig Ferguson that's "hardly the ****** story".
You are also now just nitpicking. "Forever" can mean anything, and I can think of a hundred ways why the AA has not been there "forever".
10k power buff is peanuts if compared to HG. That's why I call it "mediocre".
10k power is roughly 25% extra damage. HG grants around 35% damage. ~70% is mediocre to you? I guess it's nice that you're using MIT/Harvard standards or something to define "mediocre", at least.
Not gonna hijack this thread anymore, sorry OP.
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lerapiso818Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 92Arc User
That's the discussion about bondings vs augments and the difference between the two mechanics which has nothing to do with the very clear statement: "AFAIK it (AA) ignores bondings". If you have an augment, the power stat you get from it is transfered by AA, i.e. It behaves like a radiant enchantment. If you have bondings, the power you get back from them (after the interaction), is not transfered again by AA i.e it works with the base power and it doesn't loop as WoL did (ofc).
That's my understanding of that statement.
@tyrtallow "10k power is roughly 25% extra damage. HG grants around 35% damage. ~70% is mediocre to you? I guess it's nice that you're using MIT/Harvard standards or something to define "mediocre", at least."
In case you need more info why it works in that way, here my model where the formulas are explained. The left side of the big equation is HG, the right side is AA. https://s14.postimg.org/wskalrsch/Capture.jpg
After studying it, I'm sure we can agree that it's not as you're saying (it's 70% HG, but that's not what you have to focus on). That's why it's important to know if the companions of your allies have bonding runestones or not when you have to decide between HG and AA (and even knowing it, it's still situational).
Btw, let's assume even if wrong that it works as you wrote. You don't have to calculate 25/35, but you should evaluate (35-25)/25 = 40%. That's the difference: it's ~70% HG, but HG would be +40% more effective. So yes wrong or not, it's mediocre: don't need Harward/MIT standards, primary school is enough.
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
AA not only shares to you and your party, but to all the companions as well. Multiply that by 300% and that's a pretty significant Buff.
Significant or not the more power the dps have the less relevant it is.
I also added a new video to the channel. It has nothing special so I didn't add it to the OP, I just wanted to show some fun 10' CN runs without high prophet, as I was told this was what made my character powerful. Or maybe I just know my stuff?
10' CN runs without high prophet, as I was told this was what made my character powerful. Or maybe I just know my stuff? </p>
I just finished crafting the elemental replacements last night. Turns out HP set may have been slowing me down too... I guess I owe the devs some gratitude for opening my eyes and getting me out of my HP shackles...
That said, I think a lot of the discussion about what is and isn't shared with AA + BoB + WoL is outdated and based on testing done pre-mod10 (certainly a lot of the quotes being thrown around refer to that). I'd have to re-test, but I'm fairly confident that power from augments no longer helps AA. Neither does anything with an icon by your player portrait (including stuff like twisted weps and underdark strength rings).
I kind of don't want to spend a bunch of time re-testing because we've all heard that more DC rework is on the way, which means everything will be fixed and working exactly as the (corrected) tooltips indicate in no time!
PS: I believe a lot of the quoted discussion about HG vs. AA was written before the popularity of 3x r12 bonding stones giving the player effectively 4x power-aura (1x directly + 3.85x bonding + 0.15x legendary active). It was hard to grant a competitive amount of power to a player directly, but with the bonding amplification the game changed, so to speak.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
see references from @michela testing, thanks to double mitigation high prophet isn't the major OP set people think it is.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
10' CN runs without high prophet, as I was told this was what made my character powerful. Or maybe I just know my stuff? </p>
I just finished crafting the elemental replacements last night. Turns out HP set may have been slowing me down too... I guess I owe the devs some gratitude for opening my eyes and getting me out of my HP shackles...
That said, I think a lot of the discussion about what is and isn't shared with AA + BoB + WoL is outdated and based on testing done pre-mod10 (certainly a lot of the quotes being thrown around refer to that). I'd have to re-test, but I'm fairly confident that power from augments no longer helps AA. Neither does anything with an icon by your player portrait (including stuff like twisted weps and underdark strength rings).
I kind of don't want to spend a bunch of time re-testing because we've all heard that more DC rework is on the way, which means everything will be fixed and working exactly as the (corrected) tooltips indicate in no time!
PS: I believe a lot of the quoted discussion about HG vs. AA was written before the popularity of 3x r12 bonding stones giving the player effectively 4x power-aura (1x directly + 3.85x bonding + 0.15x legendary active). It was hard to grant a competitive amount of power to a player directly, but with the bonding amplification the game changed, so to speak.
May sound like an awkward question but in the post below you tested the mod 10 power rework and said augment didn't count. Are you suggesting it has been ninja changed since then?
May sound like an awkward question but in the post below you tested the mod 10 power rework and said augment didn't count. Are you suggesting it has been ninja changed since then?
I think my wording was confusing. Neither augment companions nor bonding companions have contributed to the "base" power for sharing since the WoL/bonding rework earlier this year. The thread you linked contains test results based on those changes.
I think I got confused by the following comment, which I think is incorrect, but at this point I'm not sure whether people were claiming this was true or not...
I'm just going to throw this out there. I've been playing 2 DC's since I started playing in early Mod 5. One is an AC Righteous PvE spec and one is a DO Righteous spec with power share, that excels at both PvE and pvp. Of the 2 I feel that in mod 9 the DO brings more to the table burning down big bosses with power share and massive debuffs due to my build, gear, and race (drow). Those DoTs hurt and BoTS, and BtS are my best friends. I am capable of running full heals if needed and CN or Edemo is no big thing.
It all depends on what you want to achieve with the class because realistically the DC is super flexible. IMHO Mistress Anathema - Xbox
If you read everyone's posts, it's not so much about DO vs AC in general (and I stand by the changes to DA and BotS I suggested in an earlier post since regardless of what happens to AA, if the devs are going to change DCs at all then it's about time that they make DO distinct from AC) but DO vs a very particular AC build - the AA spammer. It's a specific build that has flown under the radar since mod 5 but is now gaining attention in mainstream. Why is just 1 build relevant, you say? Because all ACs ultimately become AA spammers at high ilevels, unless for some reason you are actively trying to gimp your DC's support potential.
Anyway on top of everything else people have reported about AA, the AA spammer AC build can perform feats that just destroys DO in all but one respect - single target debuffing thanks to PoD(and even that's arguable because of how strong AA is). Just slotting Hastening Light allows an AA spammer build to do perma-Astral Shields and heal/buff/debuff/deal damage better with faster-recharging encounters. Thanks to BoB, it can also generate divinity faster and more reliably. Oh, and did I mention that Hastening Light also affects your teammates?
We're not even going to discuss what happens when other powers/feats/item abilities come into play.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
AC build can perform feats that just destroys DO in all but one respect - single target debuffing thanks to PoD(and even that's arguable because of how strong AA is).
Just slotting Hastening Light allows an AA spammer build to do perma-Astral Shields and heal/buff/debuff/deal damage better with faster-recharging encounters.
Comments
I understand that at low IL, playing AC provide no benefit over DO if your BF can't balance the PoD loss on no adds boss, but if you've more than 20k power, I don't see how DO can compete at buffing/debuffing past this point.
That being said, I'll stay DO, I really don't like the AC playstyle (that painfull moment when you've to use BoB instead of BotS
Even if AC is better buffer (and better dps).
Terrifying Insight only affect self, and a high end full crit DO fail to outdps high power AC with bonding if left uninterupted. DO dps is only useful in pvp, but it is just your preference to play what u want, so keep in peace and just play.
You say its a buff build but you have so many wasted feats
If you wan to be a buffer why use astral fury? 10% more damage to you?
Piercing light its another waste if you don't want dps, you barely have 1k armor penetration, why do you use piercing light? another waste?
If you want fire of the gods to trigger bears your sins, you can put 1 point on it instead of 5.
Men all the builds have already been created, if you fix your own build you will more likely end with one of those builds!!
AC Righteous is better buffer thanks to BoB, damage mitigation via AA, and of course Gift of Haste.
All that said, I believe that AC is out performing DO in group play atm. I am however sticking with DO because... well I anticipate the nerf bat coming for the DC yet again and the focus will be to decrease immortality (note forum pvp crybabies) and power sharing (I see the ITF change as a move toward fixed buff feats instead of variable based on stats and synergies. I think its scales better for lazy developers). There doesn't appear to be anyone at cryptic that truly plays DC and would act as our champion in reword discussions. And finally modifing my build to the most recent BiS is expensive and I do not intend to chase the new BiS anymore.
Also, I understand the DO has better debuffing capabilites thanks to PoD but my point in mentioning anything was to point out that (after having done the theoretical maths, then going in game and confirming the theories via tedious manual testing, because no ACT for me) the AC paragon has a higher group DPS increase potential, period. For every situation, assuming BiS geared DCs, trash clearing, boss kills, AC trumps DO in increasing group effectiveness, period.
Also, while the AC paragon encourages less crit by way of encouraging dumping stats into Power, that doesn't necessarily mean that DO has better crit or that any substantial differences could be drawn from having higher crit even. I as a almost pure Power stacking AC am still sporting a substantial 74% crit chance. Oh and in case you missed it @putzboy78 , Fab and m-his anonymous cohort, publicly released their full debuff spreadsheet and in it there was some details about how they have discovered that Bear Your Sins doesn't actually provide ANY enemy debuff (rather it increases attackers effective RI% against the target but that's irrelevant and provides no additional benefit if attacker is already at RI% cap... per how it was explained to me) so that's all the more reason why having an increased crit chance will not impact group DPS via (the currently broken) Bear Your Sins.
Now I still feel like the most optimal group setup is to run 2 DCs (and a CW, haven't made up my mind on what best tank is but still leaning towards GF). One AC and one DO as there's enough buffs and debuffs available for both builds to exist in the same group with zero/minimal loss in group buffing potential due to overlaps. So I'm not trying to say DO is irrelevant. That's just not true, DO is still very very relevant and highly desirable. It's just a personal pet peeve of mine when misinformation or opinions are stated as facts and it's a personal character flaw of mine in that I feel compelled to correct people...
Pup - Level 70 4.2k Buff/Debuff AC DC
XBL GT: TehPuppy
If they redesigned the game where "true" healing paths were relevant in the post 3k world, I'd be willing to accept semi-substantial nerfs to buffing/debuffing. But as it stands, buffs/debuffs are ALL that keep us relevant. I dont want buffs to my own personal DPS to make me competitive in that area of the game. I like my niche. While I think the mod 10 nerfs to power sharing were necessary, it seems in post mod 10 that we are good in terms of buffing. As you mentioned, if they removed or nerfed our power sharing abilities too much, that would make us undesirable for most groups and provide little incentive to chase upgrades.
IMO, they should alter our feat paths and move the buffs/debuffs from righteous into the healing trees and/or introduce new ones (maybe virtuous is healing/buff and faithful is healing/debuff) and then make righteous a "pure" DPS path. But that's unlikely to happen I suppose.
Also I don't want a pure dps path, then you are in direct competition with GWF and effectively useless to go to high ilvls. Virtuous is basically the buff/healer tree already, faithful is the mitigation/healer tree, and righteous is the debuff/dps tree. I think it makes a lot of sense as is.
I don't particularly care for a pure DPS path myself. Just trying to think of a reason to pick virtuous/faithful. I guess you can say they have buff/debuff properties within them, and they do, but no one takes those paths to be a buff/debuffer (doesn't seem like people take those paths period). Most just dip into them 2 or maybe 3 rows but are still basically righteous specced. I was just thinking they should make them more viable (by adding more buffs/debuffs to the paths). Nevertheless, I have enjoyed feeling "wanted" in groups for my buffs and fear nerfs will change that. Its a nice role considering heals seem completely irrelevant even without BIS gear. I already kinda fear the buffing decrease of Mod 10 will be too much (though I completely understand why it was needed to be looked at). Any further nerfs though and I think I may become a waste of a group spot.
But for now I suppose, I'll just keep on keeping on and see what the rebalance brings.
This is my recovery-cooldown simulator (but inside there's the contribution and the knowledge from other players):
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/ijnxsm8fat
It has some stories to tell.
Concerninng the AP monster, I can provide info. When everything is on, I touch +135% AP gain, starting from a +99% base line: it's a lot and maybe too much. There's only one benefit in having such high value: flexibility.
You can unslot your DC sigil artifact, your can store your holy burning set in your inventory, you don't need a flail snail anymore, but you can invest in something different. In my case I've spent some time to get and upgrade the vanguard banner while I've now the twisted weapon set, I've downgraded gift of haste (2/5) to give FoGs more points.
FBI forced me to go back a bit, but right now I've found a good balance.
I've already tested AA + HG at the same time as many others already did.Imo it's not very effective for two reasons:
- the AA uptime is short and if you're in combat even shorter most of the times.
- When HG is on, your AP gain is close to zero unless you're recharged by someone else (but the AP recharge is still slow).
Without investing time and resources to "feel the power of AA + HG", having 2 DCs is better, easier and faster.
I don't enter into the old DO vs AC discussion. You can arrange your DC as you like and if it works there's nothing else to add. Few players will look at their timers to check if the run was 80 seconds faster because you're AC instead of DO (or the opposite).
The DC builds' patterns are well known as it's well known today what you have to do if you want to focus more on dps instead of healing or something else.
@diogene0: thank you for your videos. While I don't always agree 100% with you, it's a big contribution. As I've already told, I hope that your work will not be frustrated by the incoming change.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
The only reason not to use HG is when you play with a SW, because SWs tyrannical curse doesn't benefit from HG unless you use some sort of weird combo that doesn't make sense.
There was a thread about this on the forums with all the maths, explaining why HG is better for BiS buff parties. I can't find it anymore. I'd do the math again if I had time for it, but maybe someone will find it and post it again. It's not wasted. Working on the DC class helped me developing an efficient testing methodology and helped me trimming the fat when doing data collection. TBH so far the findings are ugly. It's so ugly the class is barely testable. It's a miracle it's playable, but mostly because our very long bugs are immensely beneficial. There are too many to list them. I have barely explored more than 15% of the mechanics, yet I have listed more bugs than you could find on the SW class...
Which is why I'm putting my DC guide on slow mode, and will shift content towards how the class is played rather than all the theorical mumbo-jumbo. That's what most players need anyway. In the meantime I can work on some cool stuff I need for my other character with the practice I got from banging my head on a wall because one more DC bug invalidated hours of testing.
That being said, I do hope we get some fixing this round, and I do hope AA gets nerfed eventually. I'm not too opposed to power sharing, even if it should be toned down a bit, as it gets less and less interesting with increasing power creep. What I don't like is the damage immunity. This part should be enemy public #1, along with the pally bubble. These are the most common cheesing tools, and ignoring game mechanics isn't cool.
Saying HG is better because it multiplies against other buffs but a Power increase doesn't is also wrong. I'm really not trying to pick on you here but that's just not how it works. Sure HG is multiplicative against other buffs, but the Power multiplier, is also a part of that equation and it is also multiplied against those buffs. It's not an additive increase to overall DPS, it's just multiplicative in a different section of the damage formula.
But to continue my point, DO DC vs AC DC as to who is the better buffer comes down to more than just what Daily you use, even if AA is better than HG. You must also factor in PoD, Foresight feated with Benefit of Foresight, Blessing of Battle feated with Battle Fervor. Which when considering those things as well, will make it so the DO DC buffs party by DR by 5% more than AC, but AC DC buffs party DPS in the neighborhood of 35% more (that number will vary depending if PoD is used in empowered and what base Power stat all those in the party have, but for rough estimations it's about that). I see you keep saying this, but given the large amount of inaccuracies in your statements so far, I'm inclined to not really believe you. I apologize sincerely if that statement comes off as harsh or condescending as I'm not trying to be mean here. Just calling it like I see it.. You make several untrue statements that I can (and in some cases have) prove inaccurate. Then make veiled secretive "other stuff is broken but I won't tell you what it is or how it's broken" statements and expect me to just trust you?
Pup - Level 70 4.2k Buff/Debuff AC DC
XBL GT: TehPuppy
Virtuous was very popular until they nerfed the AP buffing to a point that their was no advantage to having the virtuous capstone over other capstones. Some people still play virt... but they are rare. Virtuous certainly needs a rework.
There are some people crying for a DC nerf which is ridiculous. The only reason for a dc nerf cry should be because it is taking away from other classes getting in parties. Which their should be at least one spot in parties dedicated to either an OP heal or dc (note that is the requirement to enter a dungeon via public queue so its at least the intention by the devs). Nerfing buffs and debuffs is a dangerous game. We must be able to show that we add value greater than a dps else the rise of full dps parties will become popular again and yes there was a time when a DC had a hard time getting into a dungeon even when we could buff dps over 25% with HG (25%*4 = 100% which means we provided more group dps than an additional dps would have). So basically the contribution to party dps probably has to at least double that of an additional DPS in order to reliably get into dungeons. At somepoint temp sws will rise again in popularity (with continued stats more lifesteal becomes available). When they first arrived on the scene they could out heal us (but no clutch heals) and they have more dps potential than we do. Which puts us at more competition for healing roles.
As it is I provide roughly 198% efficiency in a dungeon run, it can spike larger but on average it is 198% efficiency as a DO/DC. So if the nerf something they'd have to be selective as to what because DO/DC is already on the borderline of being unwelcome.
AC has access to HG so even if HG outperforms AA in your scenario it doesn't give DO an advantage over AC. And yes there was a thread about wether AA outperforms HG and it was determined that it doesn't until you have at least 30K power and then it depends on the power of the members in your party. However, many end game AC DCs are stacking much much more power than that. SO AA is optional but AC still has BoB and GoH.
I think the challenge with the power sharing is similar to the early days of mod 6 when dc had infinite dailys. You basically become a one trick pony where your entire focus becomes on BoB and proc'ing AA to buff power. It can be fun for a few runs but it could get very old quick, even if its what the parties demand.
But cat's out of the bag and change is imminent etc etc.
The simplest solution to the AC vs DO problem would be to change back Divine Armor so that the DC remains able to generate AP while it's up. This changes the meta somewhat, since it gives DO a go-to daily for defense (while also being an option for AC).
Changing Divine Armor so that the defensive bonuses are stronger and changing Brand of the Sun so that it generates more divinity than BoB spam (its ridiculous how much utility BoB has, BotS should simply be an AoE) would create a new meta between DC paragons, with DO being the party defensive/caster offensive-type DC and AC being the party offensive/caster defensive-type DC.
HG should ideally be the end-game for party offense considering how much of hassle it is to keep up, for both DO/AC.
The current power stacking meta for DCs is definitely a nerf waiting to happen, though I suspect the change will be something as simple as AA no longer allowing the caster to generate AP for a certain duration.
Virtuous AC remains perfectly viable in a large part because it has access to both Righteous and Virtuous feats, specifically feats like Battle Fervor and Weapons of Light. Faithful, for obvious reasons, can only choose one.
Virtuous' healing also works as mitigation, especially against non-fatal hits. On better geared DCs each HoT tick from Virtuous is massive enough to bring someone to full in a second. GoF rounds it off nicely.
It doesn't need a rework, just some tweaking for the DO path.
Without the interaction with the bondings, AA provides a mediocre-to-low power buff and it's designed to be a defensive power.
Virtuous needs a major rework imo.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
It has not been there forever and the change to other dailies only occurred in mod 5.
AA ignores bonding?
Please explain how a DC can reach 100k++++ power.
Willing to read your findings and ready to learn if the case. You're wrong sorry. Here the patch note back in 2014 when the DC was reworked:
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Patch_NW.35.20141104a.7
As you can read AA was not reworked. When the fourth rank was added, it was even bugged and fixed only in May 2015:
http://www.arcgames.com/it/games/neverwinter/news/detail/9233613-neverwinter:-patch-notes:-nw.45.20150416c.10
The AA features were never changed.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
AA ignores bonding?
Please explain how a DC can reach 100k++++ power.
It's funny that you're quoting from a thread that also says:
The explanation for why you can reach 100k is also included in the thread, by way of an interesting interaction of feats and powers that is obviously not intended. I trust you can find @lerapiso818's post on your own.
And I'm repeating myself all over again: do your research. Or maybe just read better.
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Patch_NW.35.20141104a.7
As you can read AA was not touched. When the fourth rank was added, it was even bugged and fixes only in May 2015:
http://www.arcgames.com/it/games/neverwinter/news/detail/9233613-neverwinter:-patch-notes:-nw.45.20150416c.10
The AA features were never changed.
What's your point?
The AA you now know was introduced in the game in May 2015, which was around the same time I posted this:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/4339556?sso=eyJuYW1lIjoiIiwicGhvdG91cmwiOiIiLCJjbGllbnRfaWQiOiIxNDQzOTY4OTgxIn0=+98c54bc146fe2c6de901a669b24a5151b3c9ef81+1475995452+hmacsha1
With some further testing it didn't take a genius to figure out what I had stumbled into. I was chain-spamming HG's/DA's using an action point build pre-nerf using any combination of gear/BI/alchemy potions long before people actually made cleric build guides so it was a natural transition. And then mod 6 arrived.
Whether AA was "touched" or not is irrelevant, the meta had changed and the DC was a new class. AA was a new power with a new role. It's like looking at a bullet in a museum and that same bullet lodged in someone else's brain.
It's the same bullet, yeah, but in the words of the great Craig Ferguson that's "hardly the ****** story".
You are also now just nitpicking. "Forever" can mean anything, and I can think of a hundred ways why the AA has not been there "forever".
10k power buff is peanuts if compared to HG. That's why I call it "mediocre".
10k power is roughly 25% extra damage. HG grants around 35% damage. ~70% is mediocre to you?
I guess it's nice that you're using MIT/Harvard standards or something to define "mediocre", at least.
Not gonna hijack this thread anymore, sorry OP.
That's the discussion about bondings vs augments and the difference between the two mechanics which has nothing to do with the very clear statement: "AFAIK it (AA) ignores bondings".
If you have an augment, the power stat you get from it is transfered by AA, i.e. It behaves like a radiant enchantment.
If you have bondings, the power you get back from them (after the interaction), is not transfered again by AA i.e it works with the base power and it doesn't loop as WoL did (ofc).
That's my understanding of that statement.
@tyrtallow
"10k power is roughly 25% extra damage. HG grants around 35% damage. ~70% is mediocre to you?
I guess it's nice that you're using MIT/Harvard standards or something to define "mediocre", at least."
I trust you can find the post where this table is published:
http://i.imgur.com/IQaKkwE.png
In case you need more info why it works in that way, here my model where the formulas are explained. The left side of the big equation is HG, the right side is AA.
https://s14.postimg.org/wskalrsch/Capture.jpg
After studying it, I'm sure we can agree that it's not as you're saying (it's 70% HG, but that's not what you have to focus on). That's why it's important to know if the companions of your allies have bonding runestones or not when you have to decide between HG and AA (and even knowing it, it's still situational).
Btw, let's assume even if wrong that it works as you wrote. You don't have to calculate 25/35, but you should evaluate (35-25)/25 = 40%. That's the difference: it's ~70% HG, but HG would be +40% more effective.
So yes wrong or not, it's mediocre: don't need Harward/MIT standards, primary school is enough.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
I also added a new video to the channel. It has nothing special so I didn't add it to the OP, I just wanted to show some fun 10' CN runs without high prophet, as I was told this was what made my character powerful. Or maybe I just know my stuff?
That said, I think a lot of the discussion about what is and isn't shared with AA + BoB + WoL is outdated and based on testing done pre-mod10 (certainly a lot of the quotes being thrown around refer to that). I'd have to re-test, but I'm fairly confident that power from augments no longer helps AA. Neither does anything with an icon by your player portrait (including stuff like twisted weps and underdark strength rings).
I kind of don't want to spend a bunch of time re-testing because we've all heard that more DC rework is on the way, which means everything will be fixed and working exactly as the (corrected) tooltips indicate in no time!
PS: I believe a lot of the quoted discussion about HG vs. AA was written before the popularity of 3x r12 bonding stones giving the player effectively 4x power-aura (1x directly + 3.85x bonding + 0.15x legendary active). It was hard to grant a competitive amount of power to a player directly, but with the bonding amplification the game changed, so to speak.
arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1218468/mod-10-dc-changes/p1
I think I got confused by the following comment, which I think is incorrect, but at this point I'm not sure whether people were claiming this was true or not...
I've been playing 2 DC's since I started playing in early Mod 5. One is an AC Righteous PvE spec and one is a DO Righteous spec with power share, that excels at both PvE and pvp.
Of the 2 I feel that in mod 9 the DO brings more to the table burning down big bosses with power share and massive debuffs due to my build, gear, and race (drow).
Those DoTs hurt and BoTS, and BtS are my best friends. I am capable of running full heals if needed and CN or Edemo is no big thing.
It all depends on what you want to achieve with the class because realistically the DC is super flexible.
IMHO
Mistress Anathema - Xbox
Why is just 1 build relevant, you say? Because all ACs ultimately become AA spammers at high ilevels, unless for some reason you are actively trying to gimp your DC's support potential.
Anyway on top of everything else people have reported about AA, the AA spammer AC build can perform feats that just destroys DO in all but one respect - single target debuffing thanks to PoD(and even that's arguable because of how strong AA is).
Just slotting Hastening Light allows an AA spammer build to do perma-Astral Shields and heal/buff/debuff/deal damage better with faster-recharging encounters. Thanks to BoB, it can also generate divinity faster and more reliably.
Oh, and did I mention that Hastening Light also affects your teammates?
We're not even going to discuss what happens when other powers/feats/item abilities come into play.