a minimum item level to enter might not encourage newer players to pvp, but im sure itd solve alot of the pug problems. sure item level isnt the best measure of anything, but its whats currently used. i enjoy reading all of these pvp posts. why wouldnt a group build an optimal team to compete? you do it for dungeons to maximize functionality. imagine if lostmauth could complain on the forums! if you even pug dungeons you have to expect to fail unless you can carry. puggin pvp is the same. permanent solo queue will solve alot of things for sure.
Its simple. This game will never have any balanced pvp. When mounts costing 25 million giving you AoE prones and 150%hp shield or 4000 power, even the mods cant deny that it is just flat p2w.
With that being said: Remove leaderboard and all tracking of statistics. Remove all rewards except pvp currency. Give us maps for simple 1vs1, 2vs2, 3vs3 and so on. And a super simple lobby system for said mods to CHOOSE OUR OPPONENTS! Problem of all pvp solved.
Low gear chars can practise with equals. BiS players can wreck each other while avoiding stupid troll comps because of transparent lobby system.
Well easiest way would be to add both solo q and 5v5 q. And more (1v1,3v3, arenas maybe) , but these should be there for sure.. Also would be pretty nice if ONLY rainbows were allowed in PvP...
Huh wut a sad discussion.. Serious?? close domination - u wanna more playres quit game??? I agree running al the time full preamde is sometimes... boring. Main reason i mostly run full premade is imma tired as hell play with brainless ppl standings on pilar or run away from node cuz their life was reduced to 30%, fight out of nodes or just afk.. When u play with friends u know what can u expect in mtch. I hate this feeling when u do all u can to win but one random guy makes your match disaster..
Even premade PvP is actively killed by the little playerbase left because once you face a premade, you gonna face either 2x oppressor CW / 2x perma courage TR or 2x GF / 2x HR. I have even seen 2x DC + 2x Oppressor CW.
Maybe there should be meta for only 1 player of each class in team?? But after that gonna be more difficult to create full preadme for small guilds and people start to complain that only few big guilds are able to create preamdes.
About pugs stomping imma not sure whichone is bigger when I go full premade roll pugs on ohter side and game finish after few kills
or
when I solo queued (during solo event) and finish match with 40-50 kills and 0 deaths - patetic fest for bis players who are very descent in pvp but finaly can revange in superb pugstomping, but pugs dont cry cuz match is close and final score is 1000 - 900+. Meh..
Solution is simple let people earn some serious number of AD's especially when those days prices on AH are ridiculous that's why is so big gap between old and new people - there is no way to keep pace with best pvp/pve players atm.. Because of that players mostly blame and complain about domination
Post edited by turzan on
Godfinder
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
WHAT about an another mode that you can do your pvp without worry about rank 12 enchants or special mounts and special boons? OTHER serious games has the equal gear mode.
WHAT about an another mode that you can do your pvp without worry about rank 12 enchants or special mounts and special boons? OTHER serious games has the equal gear mode.
Yeah true many games arent gear based when it comes to PvP, but then again the whole game aint based on gear in there. Not as much. But this game is,this game is mainly about gearing up, getting new sets,artifacts,weapons etc, so what would be the point of getting all the new stuff if you cant have any kind of advantage when using it?
I understand that there are many p2w players in PvP, but personally Im not, and I would hate it if all the gear/enchants Ive farmed myself for were all of a sudden useless
Unless they left normal queue and added another one for no-gear matches :P
a minimum item level to enter might not encourage newer players to pvp, but im sure itd solve alot of the pug problems. sure item level isnt the best measure of anything, but its whats currently used. i enjoy reading all of these pvp posts. why wouldnt a group build an optimal team to compete? you do it for dungeons to maximize functionality. imagine if lostmauth could complain on the forums! if you even pug dungeons you have to expect to fail unless you can carry. puggin pvp is the same. permanent solo queue will solve alot of things for sure.
Some people believe that the reason the matchmaking is so broken is due to too low a population. An IL gate on entry to PvP would do nothing to fix this... I don't believe anyone has ever said that the High-end PvP players & guilds don't have a right to play PvP. A minumim IL requirement to PvP would keep a significant portion of the population from PvP'ing at all. And, once again... how do we get better @ PvP? Glory! How do we get Glory... by PvP'ing. Le sigh 0,o
The comparison to PVE dungeons is a bad one. Why? Be cause there are dungeons available for players of any level. with only a few exceptions (tiamat, for example) any content is available for all. & if you are too squishy, you can go somewhere else, lvl up, or grind better gear & try again. As it stands... PvP does not fit this mold. An IL barrier will only make the problems we have now worse.
a minimum item level to enter might not encourage newer players to pvp, but im sure itd solve alot of the pug problems. sure item level isnt the best measure of anything, but its whats currently used. i enjoy reading all of these pvp posts. why wouldnt a group build an optimal team to compete? you do it for dungeons to maximize functionality. imagine if lostmauth could complain on the forums! if you even pug dungeons you have to expect to fail unless you can carry. puggin pvp is the same. permanent solo queue will solve alot of things for sure.
Some people believe that the reason the matchmaking is so broken is due to too low a population. An IL gate on entry to PvP would do nothing to fix this... I don't believe anyone has ever said that the High-end PvP players & guilds don't have a right to play PvP. A minumim IL requirement to PvP would keep a significant portion of the population from PvP'ing at all. And, once again... how do we get better @ PvP? Glory! How do we get Glory... by PvP'ing. Le sigh 0,o
The comparison to PVE dungeons is a bad one. Why? Be cause there are dungeons available for players of any level. with only a few exceptions (tiamat, for example) any content is available for all. & if you are too squishy, you can go somewhere else, lvl up, or grind better gear & try again. As it stands... PvP does not fit this mold. An IL barrier will only make the problems we have now worse.
Depends, spiltting the IL a little would help it, just at the major differences thresholds aka "new 70's" players, causals, vets. So 2,499 and below pvp, 2.5-2,900, +3k IL.
a minimum item level to enter might not encourage newer players to pvp, but im sure itd solve alot of the pug problems. sure item level isnt the best measure of anything, but its whats currently used. i enjoy reading all of these pvp posts. why wouldnt a group build an optimal team to compete? you do it for dungeons to maximize functionality. imagine if lostmauth could complain on the forums! if you even pug dungeons you have to expect to fail unless you can carry. puggin pvp is the same. permanent solo queue will solve alot of things for sure.
Some people believe that the reason the matchmaking is so broken is due to too low a population. An IL gate on entry to PvP would do nothing to fix this... I don't believe anyone has ever said that the High-end PvP players & guilds don't have a right to play PvP. A minumim IL requirement to PvP would keep a significant portion of the population from PvP'ing at all. And, once again... how do we get better @ PvP? Glory! How do we get Glory... by PvP'ing. Le sigh 0,o
The comparison to PVE dungeons is a bad one. Why? Be cause there are dungeons available for players of any level. with only a few exceptions (tiamat, for example) any content is available for all. & if you are too squishy, you can go somewhere else, lvl up, or grind better gear & try again. As it stands... PvP does not fit this mold. An IL barrier will only make the problems we have now worse.
Depends, spiltting the IL a little would help it, just at the major differences thresholds aka "new 70's" players, causals, vets. So 2,499 and below pvp, 2.5-2,900, +3k IL.
Yes, of course a tiered queue system would be an improvement. Even if it was based on a stat as broken as IL. But, that's not what the OP wanted. He wanted a "minimum IL to enter PvP." This is as bad an idea as any I've seen. Admittedly, there are a lot of high-end pvp'ers that don't want "under-geared" toons to have ANY advantage in the PvP arena... but to completely exclude a significant portion of players... that's just wrong. That might actually kill PvP. although... It might be worth it, to hear the whinging from all the pug-stomper trolls when they have no-one left to play with but the pre-mades. But, no. Just no.
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
4.2k needs its own bracket. They are in a world of their own. 2k-2.5k, 2.5-3k, 3k-3.5k,3.5-3.8k, 3.8-4.2k,4.2k+
The difference between 3.8k and 4.2 k are rank 12 utilities. Big deal. It still doesn't account for mounts, insignias and SH Boons. An unguilded 4.2k is weak.
Main problem with brackets is that we wouldnt be able to play with our friends on the same team (unless we could choose the brackets we want to queue in,which sounds stupid), and there are so many players who are very skilled but lack the gear, what if we want to bring them to premades/inhouses? We couldnt.
I think that the very first change that we should get within PvP is additional solo/duo queue and 5v5 one. Most of people will be happy
Main problem with brackets is that we wouldnt be able to play with our friends on the same team (unless we could choose the brackets we want to queue in,which sounds stupid), and there are so many players who are very skilled but lack the gear, what if we want to bring them to premades/inhouses? We couldnt.
I think that the very first change that we should get within PvP is additional solo/duo queue and 5v5 one. Most of people will be happy
Of course you can play with your friends.... all you have to do is strip of a few thousand IL worth of gear. Or, you could queue pre-made. No-one said solo queue instead of 5 vs. 5... we said we want a solo queue and 5 vs. 5. & that is exactly how the devs have implemented it. right now you can choose... queue solo/due, or 5 vs, 5.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
@matthiasthehun76 I have changed the title of the thread to PvP Options Need to be Reevaluated to reduce the click bait/flame bait of the previous title. Please contact the moderators if you wish to discuss other possible titles.
For everybody else, this will not be an easy topic to debate without delving into flame wars. I've skim read the thread and didn't see anything that stood out to me but that was literally skim reading after being awake for 20 hours.
This will definitely be a debated suggestion but @matthiasthehun76 did bring some good evidence to support his stance.
Please report any flame posts as soon as possible so this thread can remain open! -Ambisinisterr
the whole Novice and Master concept is a great idea. It would save the "Masters" the struggle related to playing with teammates that have very little exp and low iL. It would also allow the "Novices" to gather gear without being trolled, as much. It would still happen without 1 little adjustment.
Make the Novice choice a Solo ONLY queue.
You don't have to make a Novice queue solo only... just make nothing that happens there have any impact on the leader board.
People just starting out in PVP don't care at all about leader board stats. They just want to learn PVP and have fun at it. Players trying to maximize their leader board rank would be wasting their time to queue there.
There is an issue of further segmenting the small PVP population with two queues, making queue times longer. However, I would argue it would have the opposite effect. 1000 - 0 matches are failures of the queue system. It would have been better if the match had never taken place. By creating a safe environment for players that want to try out PVP, you increase the total population of PVP players. By making it fun to get started and learn about PVP, you eventually increase the population of people that want to step up to a Master PVP queue where battles count toward the leader board.
Ok @ambisinisterr title fits me well, actually no biggie, what's inside the thread that counts.
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
You may have noticed and my fellow players too, that i have another threads open, which discusses the match fixing and the AD leeching issue. (Don't wanna cross link cause i don't know if it's ok or not.)
There are sadly more and more matches where i see no fight between alliance and/or guild members on different sides of the fence.
My proposal would be to the Devs to consider bringing back the no leaver penalty for PVP, cause most leave either way or just stand there like a monument or don't do anything, just leech for easy AD, so they contribute nothing to a team match.
Heck sometimes i feel myself like a living statue of Rodin, not a participant of a PVP match, nothing happens just staying around and waiting for clock to tick down, cause as said above some alliance or guild members don't fight or just fake it for a few and then call "GG" or sometimes not even that.
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
4.2k needs its own bracket. They are in a world of their own. 2k-2.5k, 2.5-3k, 3k-3.5k,3.5-3.8k, 3.8-4.2k,4.2k+
The difference between 3.8k and 4.2 k are rank 12 utilities. Big deal. It still doesn't account for mounts, insignias and SH Boons. An unguilded 4.2k is weak.
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The above highlights some of the MAJOR problems with a ItemLevel based Que. It simply wont work. It isnt a true reflection of player power and players can swap gear around to get lower GS (like using low level Utilities for example) Not to mention any type of "gear lock" is too punishing if you forgot to swap gear before queing AND its lame to be forced to run around in Que wearing PVP gear if you are trying to do stuff like HEs or dailies while Qued.... Just saying.
WHAT about an another mode that you can do your pvp without worry about rank 12 enchants or special mounts and special boons? OTHER serious games has the equal gear mode.
"Rank 12s" dont really cause a huge gear gap. Mounts do, and the #1 issue in gear gap is actually all the boons. So the BEST solution to give an "even" playing field would be to remove all the boons and mount bonuses from domination/GG
This alone with fix a TON of the problems.
People fail to realize, or they have forgotten, that premades were never an issue in PVP before maybe 2-3 modules ago. Then all the sudden premades became an issue. Want to know why? Well it ISNT because premades are more common now than they were in module 3 when the leaderboard actually WORKED and was released... There were MORE premades back then. Why didnt people complain more then? Because gear gap was smaller. Mounts didnt have bonuses. There wasnt much artifact gear, rank 10 was the highest enchant... No SH boons, no overload drains... etc etc. I could go on all day long. Point being the gear gap was LESS then (though it was still high) but it allowed a decent group of PUGs to stand a chance against a premade.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Cross posting is more about why you are linking to the other thread than just simply linking. Linking to other threads as a reference to support your claims, provided that your thread is not simply a re-make of the other thread, is not only acceptable but I think it would greatly assist the developers.
That is of course a case by case basis and we may view something as cross posting or a duplicate thread when some poster's do not. What I can say with certainty is that to the best of my knowledge nobody has ever been penalized for cross posting and if they have it was because they knew about the rule and were purposely breaking it. Generally we treat it as a no fault action and close one thread.
I personally disagree with removing the leaver penalty. Frankly I believe the biggest problem with the leaver penalty is that it is by character. Every MOBA has a leaver penalty but when you leave a match you can't play the game for X amount of minutes and the penalty increases with the frequency that the offense is committed. In NW you hop to another character and continue like nothing happened. I was and still am red faced with rage at that horrible implementation. If it was properly implemented you might find less people would simply leave anyway.
I don't think there's an easy solution at all though. MOBA's fight that behavior by enforcing player conduct. If a person sits in the base in MOBA's they will get reported and banned as well as being forced down the ranking ladder until a point they only play with their own kind.
However, NW is not a MOBA. The PvP community is too small for really good proper matchmaking and I have to think that the community is smaller now than it was when matchmaking was added a couple of years ago. The developers basically had to decide whether to have a system which waited for good matched or a less strict system to keep the queue times under a half hour to an hour or more.
And of course because NW is not a MOBA I don't think we should expect the support staff to have to investigate every claim of poor PvP team spirit.
What we have in NW is a MOBA-esque PvP minigame which doesn't have a large enough player base to have proper MOBA matchmaking or the...economic justification...to request MOBA game conduct rules to be investigate and enforced.
My two cents. The developers are keen to improve PvP how they can but in my opinion those latest two solutions are not looking at the full picture.
However, NW is not a MOBA. The PvP community is too small for really good proper matchmaking and I have to think that the community is smaller now than it was when matchmaking was added a couple of years ago. The developers basically had to decide whether to have a system which waited for good matched or a less strict system to keep the queue times under a half hour to an hour or more.
What we have in NW is a MOBA-esque PvP minigame which doesn't have a large enough player base to have proper MOBA matchmaking or the...economic justification...to request MOBA game conduct rules to be investigate and enforced.
My two cents. The developers are keen to improve PvP how they can but in my opinion those latest two solutions are not looking at the full picture.
@ambisinisterr I completely agree, which is why you need to change the way matchmaking is looked at. Rather than trying to have it be based on "ELO" or "SKILL" you need a metric that provides a positive correlation to skill AND gear.
The best metric you will get, is a PVP Level system much like many OTHER games employ - like overwatch, or Halo to give 2 examples.
I have detailed it out on the forums and in the post above yours provided a link as well about my "PVP Level" proposal and I DO think it would provide exactly what NW needs.
Its NOT a "skill" based system but it does seek to do two things: - segregate population - Provide incentive to PVP
If my suggestion is implemented It ALSO solves your leaver issue. I wont re-post the link, but look up and click the SECOND link in my response just above your post and read that if you would. Players wont leave games or AFK because they will LOSE level/rank. They also wont get matched against completely ridiculous odds either.
I think the population is still large enough where it can warrant SOME matchmaking, but how its working now is just so far removed from what the game needs - Id even go so far as to say it never REALLY worked well to begin with.
Also as @clonkyo1 has said. We have been explaining the "WHY" behind PVP. Everyone else wants to look at the end product and simply put a "bandaid" on it by demanding solo Q and premade Qs and etc etc...
They dont look at the CORE issue that is causing PVP to be the way it is. Why is population lower? Why are newer players NOT wanting to PVP? Why are people quitting. Gear Gap is the #1 culprit.
I have also written on this and provided a link in my above post (just above yours) as well as the SOLUTION to that problem - removing boons and mount bonuses from PVP.
Doing BOTH of those: - removing boons/mount bonuses - Creating a PVP Level for the sake of matchmaking/incentive to play
Will GREATLY solve many of the PVP problems long term. The 3rd "priority" should be creating a lobby system for "non-rewarded" games. Like a "custom" game in many other games (point back to Halo and its 'forge').
All games need two sorts of ways to play: - casually with buddies for no rewards (This is the lobby system) - "ranked" and "rewarded" PVP in which there IS matchmaking.
Read my post above yours and please click on those things (I think you may have already read them actually though if I recall you had to remove some flame from one of them)
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Those are tricks to not being booted from the match. In MOBA's like LoL there are rules against running around the campfire. You will avoid the leaver penalty but you will be sent down the ladder until you are stuck with other leavers (whether you remain in the match or not) and/or you will be banned/reprimanded for the bahevior. MOBA's have systems which stop the leaving whether you leave the match or leave the field of battle. Systems which won't work in NW.
The answer isn't remove the penalties. Some laws are better than no laws.
The only people rewarded by a no leaver penalty are the leavers. By leaving a match and being able to play you have the option to do something enjoyable or the opportunity for a different match while the rest of the team is suffering. The problem is, as I said, the penalty was stupidly set up as character specific so smart leavers just swap to another character and continue to enjoy the game while the rest of the team suffers in the match sitting at the campfire like the leaver should be.
NW does not have the player base to allow players with bad behavior to fall to...darn I forgot the term...basically low ranking hell. Nor do I think they will be able to enforce rules which ban players who have poor conduct in PvP matches (leaving often, sitting in the campfire, feeding...etc).
The one thing they can do is make it so the inconsiderates have to suffer with those they cause suffering upon...except that due to a shoddy implementation they don't. People will always leave but they would leave far less if they were actually penalized for it and having to sit in the campfire is still a penalty.
Honestly, removing PvP is a better soltution to the problem than removing the leaver penalty. Removing the leaver penalty makes leaving matches the best option...been there...done that...didn't work.
Although, I would love to see one logical reason why removing the leaver penalty would make the game better. I'll give you the logic right now which will discredit most reasons that people have ever made:
1) Then the people who want to leave will leave. -Yes, but then they get to join other matches while the rest of the team sits at the campfire. At least the leaver has to sit at the campfire and suffer with the others if he wants to avoid the penalty instead of enjoying leaving
2) Everybody could leave penalty free after a leaver -Pretty sure they have it set up so that if two people leave the rest of the players don't have a leaver penalty. Maybe that should be changed to one. that would be a better argument than "complete anarchy"
3) People leave anyway -Yes they do. So removing their incentive to stay will do what? It certainly won't make them more likely to stay so see number one.
The problem with the leaver penalty is that it only mildly exists. If it actually stopped people from playing people might think twice. As it is there is NOTHING that would be improved by removing the leaver penalty. It will ONLY make things worse.
Comments
This game will never have any balanced pvp. When mounts costing 25 million giving you AoE prones and 150%hp shield or 4000 power, even the mods cant deny that it is just flat p2w.
With that being said:
Remove leaderboard and all tracking of statistics. Remove all rewards except pvp currency.
Give us maps for simple 1vs1, 2vs2, 3vs3 and so on. And a super simple lobby system for said mods to CHOOSE OUR OPPONENTS! Problem of all pvp solved.
Low gear chars can practise with equals. BiS players can wreck each other while avoiding stupid troll comps because of transparent lobby system.
THAT is the solution for this whole pvp mess.
Also would be pretty nice if ONLY rainbows were allowed in PvP...
YouTube
I agree with ryu: Maybe there should be meta for only 1 player of each class in team?? But after that gonna be more difficult to create full preadme for small guilds and people start to complain that only few big guilds are able to create preamdes.
About pugs stomping imma not sure whichone is bigger when I go full premade roll pugs on ohter side and game finish after few kills
or
when I solo queued (during solo event) and finish match with 40-50 kills and 0 deaths - patetic fest for bis players who are very descent in pvp but finaly can revange in superb pugstomping, but pugs dont cry cuz match is close and final score is 1000 - 900+. Meh..
Solution is simple let people earn some serious number of AD's especially when those days prices on AH are ridiculous that's why is so big gap between old and new people - there is no way to keep pace with best pvp/pve players atm.. Because of that players mostly blame and complain about domination
But this game is,this game is mainly about gearing up, getting new sets,artifacts,weapons etc, so what would be the point of getting all the new stuff if you cant have any kind of advantage when using it?
I understand that there are many p2w players in PvP, but personally Im not, and I would hate it if all the gear/enchants Ive farmed myself for were all of a sudden useless
Unless they left normal queue and added another one for no-gear matches :P
YouTube
The comparison to PVE dungeons is a bad one. Why? Be cause there are dungeons available for players of any level. with only a few exceptions (tiamat, for example) any content is available for all. & if you are too squishy, you can go somewhere else, lvl up, or grind better gear & try again. As it stands... PvP does not fit this mold. An IL barrier will only make the problems we have now worse.
I think that the very first change that we should get within PvP is additional solo/duo queue and 5v5 one. Most of people will be happy
YouTube
For everybody else, this will not be an easy topic to debate without delving into flame wars. I've skim read the thread and didn't see anything that stood out to me but that was literally skim reading after being awake for 20 hours.
This will definitely be a debated suggestion but @matthiasthehun76 did bring some good evidence to support his stance.
Please report any flame posts as soon as possible so this thread can remain open!
-Ambisinisterr
People just starting out in PVP don't care at all about leader board stats. They just want to learn PVP and have fun at it. Players trying to maximize their leader board rank would be wasting their time to queue there.
There is an issue of further segmenting the small PVP population with two queues, making queue times longer. However, I would argue it would have the opposite effect. 1000 - 0 matches are failures of the queue system. It would have been better if the match had never taken place. By creating a safe environment for players that want to try out PVP, you increase the total population of PVP players. By making it fun to get started and learn about PVP, you eventually increase the population of people that want to step up to a Master PVP queue where battles count toward the leader board.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
I thought i may come up with a suggestion.
You may have noticed and my fellow players too, that i have another threads open, which discusses the match fixing and the AD leeching issue. (Don't wanna cross link cause i don't know if it's ok or not.)
There are sadly more and more matches where i see no fight between alliance and/or guild members on different sides of the fence.
My proposal would be to the Devs to consider bringing back the no leaver penalty for PVP, cause most leave either way or just stand there like a monument or don't do anything, just leech for easy AD, so they contribute nothing to a team match.
Heck sometimes i feel myself like a living statue of Rodin, not a participant of a PVP match, nothing happens just staying around and waiting for clock to tick down, cause as said above some alliance or guild members don't fight or just fake it for a few and then call "GG" or sometimes not even that.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
The above highlights some of the MAJOR problems with a ItemLevel based Que. It simply wont work. It isnt a true reflection of player power and players can swap gear around to get lower GS (like using low level Utilities for example) Not to mention any type of "gear lock" is too punishing if you forgot to swap gear before queing AND its lame to be forced to run around in Que wearing PVP gear if you are trying to do stuff like HEs or dailies while Qued.... Just saying. @mamalion1234 this is something @clonkyo1 and I have already discussed ad-nausium and I wrote in detail about it here:http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1223273/the-real-issue-with-pvp-and-what-cryptic-can-do-to-fix-it-it-isnt-premades/p1
"Rank 12s" dont really cause a huge gear gap. Mounts do, and the #1 issue in gear gap is actually all the boons. So the BEST solution to give an "even" playing field would be to remove all the boons and mount bonuses from domination/GG
This alone with fix a TON of the problems.
People fail to realize, or they have forgotten, that premades were never an issue in PVP before maybe 2-3 modules ago. Then all the sudden premades became an issue. Want to know why? Well it ISNT because premades are more common now than they were in module 3 when the leaderboard actually WORKED and was released... There were MORE premades back then. Why didnt people complain more then? Because gear gap was smaller. Mounts didnt have bonuses. There wasnt much artifact gear, rank 10 was the highest enchant... No SH boons, no overload drains... etc etc. I could go on all day long. Point being the gear gap was LESS then (though it was still high) but it allowed a decent group of PUGs to stand a chance against a premade.
I have also written in depth about the best way this game could do matchmaking here: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1223443/matchmaking-introducing-a-new-pvp-level-for-better-matchmaking-suggestion?sso=eyJuYW1lIjoiIiwicGhvdG91cmwiOiIiLCJjbGllbnRfaWQiOiIxNDQzOTY4OTgxIn0=+6638553729670f6844564c510a0e91c3698ba0b0+1476728624+hmacsha1
These two suggestions would fix PVP in this game
That is of course a case by case basis and we may view something as cross posting or a duplicate thread when some poster's do not. What I can say with certainty is that to the best of my knowledge nobody has ever been penalized for cross posting and if they have it was because they knew about the rule and were purposely breaking it. Generally we treat it as a no fault action and close one thread.
I personally disagree with removing the leaver penalty. Frankly I believe the biggest problem with the leaver penalty is that it is by character. Every MOBA has a leaver penalty but when you leave a match you can't play the game for X amount of minutes and the penalty increases with the frequency that the offense is committed. In NW you hop to another character and continue like nothing happened. I was and still am red faced with rage at that horrible implementation. If it was properly implemented you might find less people would simply leave anyway.
I don't think there's an easy solution at all though. MOBA's fight that behavior by enforcing player conduct. If a person sits in the base in MOBA's they will get reported and banned as well as being forced down the ranking ladder until a point they only play with their own kind.
However, NW is not a MOBA. The PvP community is too small for really good proper matchmaking and I have to think that the community is smaller now than it was when matchmaking was added a couple of years ago. The developers basically had to decide whether to have a system which waited for good matched or a less strict system to keep the queue times under a half hour to an hour or more.
And of course because NW is not a MOBA I don't think we should expect the support staff to have to investigate every claim of poor PvP team spirit.
What we have in NW is a MOBA-esque PvP minigame which doesn't have a large enough player base to have proper MOBA matchmaking or the...economic justification...to request MOBA game conduct rules to be investigate and enforced.
My two cents. The developers are keen to improve PvP how they can but in my opinion those latest two solutions are not looking at the full picture.
The best metric you will get, is a PVP Level system much like many OTHER games employ - like overwatch, or Halo to give 2 examples.
I have detailed it out on the forums and in the post above yours provided a link as well about my "PVP Level" proposal and I DO think it would provide exactly what NW needs.
Its NOT a "skill" based system but it does seek to do two things:
- segregate population
- Provide incentive to PVP
If my suggestion is implemented It ALSO solves your leaver issue. I wont re-post the link, but look up and click the SECOND link in my response just above your post and read that if you would. Players wont leave games or AFK because they will LOSE level/rank. They also wont get matched against completely ridiculous odds either.
I think the population is still large enough where it can warrant SOME matchmaking, but how its working now is just so far removed from what the game needs - Id even go so far as to say it never REALLY worked well to begin with.
Also as @clonkyo1 has said. We have been explaining the "WHY" behind PVP. Everyone else wants to look at the end product and simply put a "bandaid" on it by demanding solo Q and premade Qs and etc etc...
They dont look at the CORE issue that is causing PVP to be the way it is. Why is population lower? Why are newer players NOT wanting to PVP? Why are people quitting. Gear Gap is the #1 culprit.
I have also written on this and provided a link in my above post (just above yours) as well as the SOLUTION to that problem - removing boons and mount bonuses from PVP.
Doing BOTH of those:
- removing boons/mount bonuses
- Creating a PVP Level for the sake of matchmaking/incentive to play
Will GREATLY solve many of the PVP problems long term. The 3rd "priority" should be creating a lobby system for "non-rewarded" games. Like a "custom" game in many other games (point back to Halo and its 'forge').
All games need two sorts of ways to play:
- casually with buddies for no rewards (This is the lobby system)
- "ranked" and "rewarded" PVP in which there IS matchmaking.
Read my post above yours and please click on those things (I think you may have already read them actually though if I recall you had to remove some flame from one of them)
The answer isn't remove the penalties. Some laws are better than no laws.
The only people rewarded by a no leaver penalty are the leavers. By leaving a match and being able to play you have the option to do something enjoyable or the opportunity for a different match while the rest of the team is suffering. The problem is, as I said, the penalty was stupidly set up as character specific so smart leavers just swap to another character and continue to enjoy the game while the rest of the team suffers in the match sitting at the campfire like the leaver should be.
NW does not have the player base to allow players with bad behavior to fall to...darn I forgot the term...basically low ranking hell.
Nor do I think they will be able to enforce rules which ban players who have poor conduct in PvP matches (leaving often, sitting in the campfire, feeding...etc).
The one thing they can do is make it so the inconsiderates have to suffer with those they cause suffering upon...except that due to a shoddy implementation they don't. People will always leave but they would leave far less if they were actually penalized for it and having to sit in the campfire is still a penalty.
Honestly, removing PvP is a better soltution to the problem than removing the leaver penalty. Removing the leaver penalty makes leaving matches the best option...been there...done that...didn't work.
Although, I would love to see one logical reason why removing the leaver penalty would make the game better. I'll give you the logic right now which will discredit most reasons that people have ever made:
1) Then the people who want to leave will leave.
-Yes, but then they get to join other matches while the rest of the team sits at the campfire. At least the leaver has to sit at the campfire and suffer with the others if he wants to avoid the penalty instead of enjoying leaving
2) Everybody could leave penalty free after a leaver
-Pretty sure they have it set up so that if two people leave the rest of the players don't have a leaver penalty. Maybe that should be changed to one. that would be a better argument than "complete anarchy"
3) People leave anyway
-Yes they do. So removing their incentive to stay will do what? It certainly won't make them more likely to stay so see number one.
The problem with the leaver penalty is that it only mildly exists. If it actually stopped people from playing people might think twice. As it is there is NOTHING that would be improved by removing the leaver penalty. It will ONLY make things worse.