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iLevel hilariously obsolete

santralafaxsantralafax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,896 Arc User
edited September 2016 in General Discussion (PC)
The developers created iLevel in mod 6 to better gauge the power of a character based on their items. In mod 7 they added SH boons, but these were not included--and could add many thousands of stat points to a character. Then mod 8 came along and added mount powers, stats, and insignias for thousands more stat points. Within the next 2 mods the developers wiped out any use the stat system had.

Today, the engine of many characters, the major stats that he runs on, are from SH boons and mounts. Enchants are just a bit of icing on the cake. I can take a 4.2K character, remove his utility enchants, and drop to 3.7K. He has lost virtually no power (or NO power if he wasn't rocking darks)--because his main stats weren't even included.

It's time for a new gear/power meme.

Edit: I failed to include pet bondings the first time around, as Etelgrin rightly pointed out. Also Legendary pet bonuses and augments, perhaps each active bonus slotted as well. The amounts generated by pets would of course not count in the PVP arenas in which pets are left behind....
Post edited by santralafax on
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Comments

  • niadanniadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    You think!
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    While IL is flawed, most 4k players are in R 20 guilds ( bc they can) and have all the other things, needed for BIS.

    Another system could be better, but to get real numbers you would need much resources, better spent elsewehre.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • ilmenirailmenira Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 269 Arc User

    The old gear score would work better, everything old is new again.

    +
  • carl103carl103 Member Posts: 209 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    I think we all (well, except for the publisher, who didn't bother replying) agreed about this in


    Thing is it's not just boons. A BIS player running a full stable of 140% mounts just from the 4k of stats per mount is getting in the region of 870 I level, (currently 1 i level is 28 and change stat points in most cases). Probably closer to 2k with the active powers and combat power thrown in. And thats before insignia's and their boons are thrown in. Those run to another 200 in raw stats, and probably north of 300 with boons from the combo's added in.

    A full stable of mounts with insignia all in the 140$ type range are probably adding the equivalent of close to 2.5k i level currently.

    By comparison even with stronghold boons thrown in Boons only run to about 1.25k i level before 4th tier boons are added in, (and most of that's from the strongholds). Probably 2k with them.

    Now go add a BiS companion, (about another 1.25k).


    Boons are a tiny part of the problem pie atm. BIS players probably have in the region of another 6k i level not being listed.

    Paingiver is not an acurratte or Useful measure of your actual sustained damage output, (i.e DPS), in various ways it lies. For a true idea use ACT. Link below:

    https://github.com/nilsbrummond/Neverwinter-ACT-Plugin
  • kvetkvet Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,700 Arc User
    You get insignia bonuses from all active mounts, that's true, but you only get the equip bonus you select - you don't get 5 mounts worth of equip bonuses.
  • carl103carl103 Member Posts: 209 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    DoH brain HAMSTER moment. (i'd just woken up :(). Thats still in the region of 4.5k unlisted I level.
    Paingiver is not an acurratte or Useful measure of your actual sustained damage output, (i.e DPS), in various ways it lies. For a true idea use ACT. Link below:

    https://github.com/nilsbrummond/Neverwinter-ACT-Plugin
  • throsbithrosbi Member Posts: 291 Arc User
    asterotg said:

    While IL is flawed, most 4k players are in R 20 guilds ( bc they can) and have all the other things, needed for BIS.

    Another system could be better, but to get real numbers you would need much resources, better spent elsewehre.

    I think you sum it up pretty good with 'need much resources' just cut off the rest of the statement ;)
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    throsbi said:

    asterotg said:

    While IL is flawed, most 4k players are in R 20 guilds ( bc they can) and have all the other things, needed for BIS.

    Another system could be better, but to get real numbers you would need much resources, better spent elsewehre.

    I think you sum it up pretty good with 'need much resources' just cut off the rest of the statement ;)
    there are some 4k players that went for IL bc of the IL, not bc of max impact, but most ppl I know with BIS gear did build their char over time, to boost dps etc. You can get BIS with an IL under 4k, if you ignore utility slots and fortification kits 35 IL each. Before they spent ADs on this more or less cosmetic values, they are done with everything else (bondings, mounts companions, insignia etc.).

    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • santralafaxsantralafax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    etelgrin said:

    the gear score would be better this is a fact but it still do not take bondings into account which is important for PvErs.

    Absolutely correct. I had left those out and they should be accounted for in some way. Legendary pet bonuses as well.
  • lonewolfmk1lonewolfmk1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 137 Arc User
    I wonder why cryptic dosent just slap an itl to all boons, insignia boni, active boni from pets etc. and be done with it. The numbers might need some adjustment later on, but would be a great improvement over what we have now.
  • panderuspanderus Member, NW_CrypticDev, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,007 Cryptic Developer
    We have talked about iLevel and its deficiencies. It is something we would like to improve upon at some point.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    I don't really care tbh. Why do we need to worry about a useless number anyhow, that isn't going to mean anything even if it is more accurate. Think about it this way, are you going to stop playing with your friends if their ilvl gave you an exact indication of how well they performed? No, you won't.

    However, taking 10 mins to implement those fixed damage weapons, that will actually make a difference.
  • jaysun1977jaysun1977 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 177 Arc User
    panderus said:

    We have talked about iLevel and its deficiencies. It is something we would like to improve upon at some point.

    Translation: Not going to happen any time soon.
  • lonewolfmk1lonewolfmk1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 137 Arc User
    edited September 2016

    I don't really care tbh. Why do we need to worry about a useless number anyhow, that isn't going to mean anything even if it is more accurate. Think about it this way, are you going to stop playing with your friends if their ilvl gave you an exact indication of how well they performed? No, you won't.

    True, but knowing the true cababilities (from the equip side of course) of a random player might be usefull when deciding who to chose for a run. But what for me is actually more important, is the pvp side of things. More usefull itls could be a foundation for an actually working team ballancing, especially when talking about solo ques.
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    panderus said:

    We have talked about iLevel and its deficiencies. It is something we would like to improve upon at some point.

    If you change it, keep in mind, that the IL should refer to real progress not just slap a number on it. An artifact upgrade gives more stats but less IL, then a fortification kit.

    Furthermore there should be a different IL for PvE/ PvP or at last defense/offense and maybe total IL. Some boons, pets or insignia boni boost your defense, some your offense. My CW is near bis, but he would be crushed in PvP and some BIS PvP players rock PvP, but are mediocre in PvE, bc they went for surviveability and CC, not dps.

    If twisted weapons add xx points to offensive stats and each offense boon/ insignia bonus yy, while drowned weapon and self heal/ defense boons do the same to defense stats, you would still get the same total IL, but we could see, if the char is build for surviveability or for dps.

    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,542 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    Or....
    We can relay not only on gear, but a hybrid score or combine the gating with another score, for example:
    For each new dungeon a person completes for the first time they will get 1000 points.
    For each subsequent they will get 100 points. We can add bonus points for killing everything (50), Faster than average time (50), Opening all the mimics (50) etc...

    But there is a catch, those are base points, the points will be diminished relatively of the players total score, for example
     new_points_gained / (1.9e-15 * x^4 + 7.4e-13 * x^3 + 1)  where x is the total score so far.
    
    What it will do is when a player starts it will give the 1000, and 250 are 250, but when accumulated about 10k points, adding 1000k will add about 48 points and 250 will add 12 and at 15k, 1000 -> 10 and 250 -> 2.5

    So in another way, for new player:
    completing a 1k dungeon first time = 1000, a run 100, with bonuses 250
    Player that has 5k points:
    completing a 1k dungeon first time = ~440, a run 44, with bonuses 110
    Player that has 10k points:
    completing a 1k dungeon first time = ~50, a run 5, with bonuses 12
    Player that has 15k points:
    completing a 1k dungeon first time = ~10, a run 1, with bonuses 2.5

    This can also be modified further to account for dungeons difficulty, for example (for bases points):
    T1 first time = 500, run 50 + total bonuses 50
    T2 first time = 1000, run 100 + total bonuses 100
    CN first time = 1500, run 150 + total bonuses 150
    FBI first time = 3000, run 300 + total bonuses 300

    etc...
    Lets call it delving experience score, gating by it, allows for people that are confident to get quickly to new dungeons by running different dungeons and getting the score, people who are less confident can repeat lower dungeons to get more experienced.

    It's an idea... I'm sure it can be further refined, perhaps combined with gear etc.. to get something workable..
  • silence1xsilence1x Member Posts: 1,503 Arc User

    FBI should have had more fundamental requirements like 20k+ power, 65%+ RI and either X defense or Y lifesteal. Then sell very basic potions for campaign currency to counter the EF and allow professions to enhance that resistance by making better potions, armor kits etc to keep the economy growing with new items. That's engaging gameplay that uses everything the game has to offer. Gathering 15k of 1 currency after every 2 hours of regular gameplay because your armor dropped 1k stat points is not.

    "Make it so." - Picard
    I aim to misbehave
  • carl103carl103 Member Posts: 209 Arc User
    @Fabricant: Sorry it might not effect you top end types. But for [people like me who are newish to end game and don't really have a feel for how hard a lot of the content is because we've never run it having an acurratte measure really is handy. Right now i'd love to start doing T2 dungeon runs on my level capped characters, but in truth given my lack of bonding runestones and only limited boons they're probably not ready for it in reality despite having enough GS to unlock it. Having an accurate GS so i can have an acurratte measure of weather my characters are ready to try somthing would be hugely helpful.
    Paingiver is not an acurratte or Useful measure of your actual sustained damage output, (i.e DPS), in various ways it lies. For a true idea use ACT. Link below:

    https://github.com/nilsbrummond/Neverwinter-ACT-Plugin
  • jumpingmorksjumpingmorks Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
    One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that having iLevel with dungeons requiring a certain ILevel to enter make it easy or should make it easy for Cryptic to test a character with no boons and know just what level of gear and type and character needs to successfully complete said dungeons.
  • throsbithrosbi Member Posts: 291 Arc User

    One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that having iLevel with dungeons requiring a certain ILevel to enter make it easy or should make it easy for Cryptic to test a character with no boons and know just what level of gear and type and character needs to successfully complete said dungeons.

    Test? what is this word you speak of?
  • jumpingmorksjumpingmorks Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
    throsbi said:

    One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that having iLevel with dungeons requiring a certain ILevel to enter make it easy or should make it easy for Cryptic to test a character with no boons and know just what level of gear and type and character needs to successfully complete said dungeons.

    Test? what is this word you speak of?
    Yea they don't exactly have the best reputation for testing stuff, or at least, testing it well it seems. Tooltips are another issue, disregarding the argument on how events label BoP items as BoE items, their tooltips are notoriously vague.

  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    You have been issued a warning, for telling us what is wrong with our game.

    I would say that is a joke, but I have received about 4 warnings now, FOR THAT very reason. I have never, seen a game so harsh on the people who try to tell them what is exactly wrong.





  • nevfenevfe Member Posts: 214 Arc User
    They gate the new dungeon with 3.1K IL yet raising your item level after about 2.6k is a horrible grind of refinement. The requirement for the dungeon should have matched the new areas. If you can cope with the areas then you should be able to do the dungeon.
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