Should mmo games like Neverwinter carry "Gamble Aware" type warnings?

mordekai · August 2016

I've only been playing for about 4 or 5 months, and have (PvP excepted) thoroughly enjoyed my time.

But it is with increasing frequency that I read (very) angry threads about how people seem to feel cheated somehow.
One of the main culprits seems to be the good old RNG method of distributing rewards. a method often referred to as the Slot Machine.

I don't know about the rest of the world, but here in the Uk gambling sites are required to offer warnings of the nature of the risk-reward and counselling on the ill effects of losing. (which inmost cases... the punters DO).

When I read of someone opening hundreds, if not thousands,of boxes or whatever else they have invested their time and money in and are very angry that (as is the way with gambling) it didn't guarantee a win, they become somewhat incensed.

Because the cash buying of zen, followed by the buying of keys, probably doesn't legally count as proper gambling this may be something that hasn't been looked at too closely.

But I have to believe that if players expectations are managed better from the outset, it might lead to less anger and disappointment.

Explain in clear and plain English (or whatever regional language) that buying 10000 keys guarantees nothing, and that if you keep doing it it can become a problem... and that it IS a form of gambling and should be treated as such.

I imagine that stuff like that exists in some tiny print somewhere in the T's and C's. Along with the notification that obviously the company has the right to pull something if its being exploited and abused.

But maybe that sort of ting needs to be more up front so that when it doesn't go exactly the way someone wants they understand that there's a reason why... and that PWE look like they take it seriously.

badkarma · August 2016

... Grown adults should know this already

spelldazer · August 2016

It would be very proper of them to do so but would not make good business sense. Would probably lead to undesirable legal ramifications and parental warnings...so...not going to happen.

BUT I totally agree that this game is heavy on the gambling addiction and uses quite a few mind tricks to compel player behavior that has desirable $$$ results.

That being said, games need to be profitable or they don't get made.

mordekai · August 2016

badkarma#2104 said:
... Grown adults should know this already

"should" being the operative word...

And to be fair, if the people doing most of the "it's not fair" foot stamping ARE kids... then yeah... I get it.

And truth be told if there were some way to prevent mildly disenfranchised people with internet access from acting like something out of an Oliver Stone movie it would have been on Dragons Den by now.

mordekai · August 2016

spelldazer said:
It would be very proper of them to do so but would not make good business sense. Would probably lead to undesirable legal ramifications and parental warnings...so...not going to happen.

BUT I totally agree that this game is heavy on the gambling addiction and uses quite a few mind tricks to compel player behavior that has desirable $$$ results.

That being said, games need to be profitable or they don't get made.

To be honest, I'm quite surprised the UK govt hasn't acted on mmo's. They have cracked down on the type of in game hidden fees of phone app games, and while advertising of bookmakers is allowed, the ads and websites are required to carry warnings.

They are probably exempt because you can't cash out. So while you can use real money to buy zen, it won't go the other way. So while you may well be gambling WITH real money, you're not gambling FOR real money.

And while I'm not saying they should carry warnings, it might be something the devs look at getting ahead of for when that first case of a teenager maxing out dad's cards trying to get the latest mmo gadget hits the tabloids.

I don't want this to read as, or become, a stick with which to beat PWE/Cryptic et al. Just wondering if there's some way that profitability can be maintained while better managing the expectations of the players who seem to feel that the game is set against them on some personal level.

omegarealities · August 2016

These type of warnings will do nothing. People would not read them anyway. How many people read every line of the TOS/UA when they download a game or pop a disc into their console/computer.

People need to understand that it is a game. They are buying fictional currency, to buy a fictional key, to open a fictional chest, that has a POSSIBILITY of receiving a certain fictional item. By the way, is not required to play the game.

If you roll a die, you have a 1 in 6 chance of rolling a 6. If you roll 10 dice, you still only have 1 in 6 chance of getting a 6 on any single die. Why would buy 10,000 keys increase the chance of getting a certain item. The probability does not change simply because you open more boxes. That is simple common sense.

mordekai · August 2016

Statistically, with 10 dice you should almost always get at least ONE 6, but the point is, no matter how many times you roll you are never guaranteed to.

The fact that the warnings are tucked away in Ts&Cs is one of the issues.

Companies comply with due diligence safe in the knowledge that less than the square root of bugger all number of people read them.
That's why what I'm talking about is something that isn't ten paragraphs of small print. I'm talking about a brief, concise message that even someone as dumb as a post could understand.

If someone complains about the odds and you say "didn't you read the terms of use?" the reply is "did ANYONE???"
but "did you not see the big warning on log in? Its there every time!" might not change the game play, but it might give pause to those who continue to moan about how they feel cheated all the time.

soonergm · August 2016

the reality is that even if a company or organization utilizes a warning label, it will not prevent all people from doing what they want to do. it's definitely not going to change a person's personality, which is what it would take to effect someone's reaction in a negative situation.

thefabricant · August 2016

Yes, they should. The reality is, the law hasn't caught up to the internet yet. In the case of neverwinter, the game is labelled 13 (I think?) and the game contains gambling. This means they are technically selling the ability to gamble to people under the age of 18 (or whatever the legal age for gambling is in your country.) The problem with trying to put laws in place on the internet though, is firstly how do you enforce them and secondly, which country's laws do you go with. The problem is that different countries have different laws and there is no practical way to get around this until there is a body set up to, "govern the internet" so to speak, which has a set of laws agreed upon by all countries (good luck with that.)

thejawlives · August 2016

As much as I would agree that sites that take real money should be under heavy scrutiny ... at the end of the day, it won't deter those who want to "gamble".

Ask any smoker...if those warning deterred them

omegarealities · August 2016

So where do we stop the warnings?

WARNING: This game may destroy your marriage.
WARNING: This game may kill you if you play it 30 days without sleep.
WARNING: This game may effect your grades at school.
WARNING: This game may cause you to lose your job.

They are not forcing you to buy anything.

indylol · August 2016

I'll explain it so its plain as day. If you spend any real $ on zen, you are donating money to PWE/Cryptic directly and are asking for nothing physical in return. The Zen you gain is there for you to spend as a reward for your generous donation. You paid for nothing and got nothing. Zen isn't real.

Now as far as lockboxs go, I they are opend with keys which CAN be purchased with Zen. No one is telling you how to acquire that Zen, you can play the ADX all day and rake in a huge profit, but that is in no way linked to the previous paragraph where you may have donated money to support the game you may or may not enjoy. They are two seperate entities and therefore its not a gambling game, more like a "support your game, and get perks" kind of situation.

soonergm · August 2016

we can pass laws to require games to have warning labels, but that is another level.

i think it's also worth noting that, again, laws don't prevent crimes from happening. they don't prevent people making the choice that they want to make. all it does it make a specified action/choice punishable.

for example, murder is illegal, yet murder occurs every day. and yes, companies break all sorts of laws, from small business to giant corporations.

as for those that are underage, they are not supposed to be spending anything without consent of parent or legal guardian, and i am pretty sure that those disclaimers are in place when you are plugging in those credit/debit card digits in to your system. shouldn't the responsibility of the choices and actions a person takes, be on that individual?

wdj40 · August 2016

mordekai#1901 said:
I've only been playing for about 4 or 5 months, and have (PvP excepted) thoroughly enjoyed my time.

But it is with increasing frequency that I read (very) angry threads about how people seem to feel cheated somehow.
One of the main culprits seems to be the good old RNG method of distributing rewards. a method often referred to as the Slot Machine.

I don't know about the rest of the world, but here in the Uk gambling sites are required to offer warnings of the nature of the risk-reward and counselling on the ill effects of losing. (which inmost cases... the punters DO).

When I read of someone opening hundreds, if not thousands,of boxes or whatever else they have invested their time and money in and are very angry that (as is the way with gambling) it didn't guarantee a win, they become somewhat incensed.

Because the cash buying of zen, followed by the buying of keys, probably doesn't legally count as proper gambling this may be something that hasn't been looked at too closely.

But I have to believe that if players expectations are managed better from the outset, it might lead to less anger and disappointment.

Explain in clear and plain English (or whatever regional language) that buying 10000 keys guarantees nothing, and that if you keep doing it it can become a problem... and that it IS a form of gambling and should be treated as such.

I imagine that stuff like that exists in some tiny print somewhere in the T's and C's. Along with the notification that obviously the company has the right to pull something if its being exploited and abused.

But maybe that sort of ting needs to be more up front so that when it doesn't go exactly the way someone wants they understand that there's a reason why... and that PWE look like they take it seriously.

In my honest opinion, no way.

The World is already overloaded with stupid warnings for every single thing in life these days. People need to grow up and act like adults and stop blaming a free video game if they repeatedly spend money on it. Actually people should just take responsibility for their actions and stop passing the blame on to something other than themselves.

I have opened probably near on 1000 lockboxes in my time of playing, possibly more... I have not had to pay for a single one of them.

EVERY RPG in history is based a lot on RNG, with drops and what not... At least now you can pay real money, if you want/chose to, to have more goes at the games RNG. Wish I had thought of that business plan years ago

mordekai · August 2016

thefabricant said:
Yes, they should. The reality is, the law hasn't caught up to the internet yet. In the case of neverwinter, the game is labelled 13 (I think?) and the game contains gambling. This means they are technically selling the ability to gamble to people under the age of 18 (or whatever the legal age for gambling is in your country.) The problem with trying to put laws in place on the internet though, is firstly how do you enforce them and secondly, which country's laws do you go with. The problem is that different countries have different laws and there is no practical way to get around this until there is a body set up to, "govern the internet" so to speak, which has a set of laws agreed upon by all countries (good luck with that.)

They can make their payment pages specific to the country they operate in (I buy Zen in sterling) they could easily utilize they same ĉoding protocols to make the loading page country specific.

mordekai · August 2016

soonergm said:
we can pass laws to require games to have warning labels, but that is another level.

i think it's also worth noting that, again, laws don't prevent crimes from happening. they don't prevent people making the choice that they want to make. all it does it make a specified action/choice punishable.

for example, murder is illegal, yet murder occurs every day. and yes, companies break all sorts of laws, from small business to giant corporations.

as for those that are underage, they are not supposed to be spending anything without consent of parent or legal guardian, and i am pretty sure that those disclaimers are in place when you are plugging in those credit/debit card digits in to your system. shouldn't the responsibility of the choices and actions a person takes, be on that individual?

Absolutely.
What I'm talking about is something that doesn't tell someone NOT to do something, just a warning that basically explains the idea that in the same way that buying 100'000 scratch cards won't guarantee a certain return, neither will playing an mmo.

There is a LOT of stuff that can be earned through grinding and smart trading in NWO, there are also a lot of things that are earned through pure luck. And while banging your head against a brick wall like edemo or CN to get that +5 ring can be shrugged off, I imagine the gamblers remorse of lockbox scratch carding and not getting that one mount or artifact you had your heart set on is one of the things that upsets folk the most.

And yeah, I know most adults SHOULD know all this, and as with any gambling should never stake more than they happy with losing... but many forget this when the shiny lights and promises of eternal glory fill their brains.

cscriv79 · August 2016

So the xbox/ps4 should carry the gambling warnings too since it is through that media you are 'gambling'.

The warning should be on the page where you input the card details for your account, the Xbox page where the transaction is finalised, not on every single game where you can pay to open a box.

CoD, Smite, Overwatch to name a few.

mordekai · August 2016

cscriv79 said:
So the xbox/ps4 should carry the gambling warnings too since it is through that media you are 'gambling'.

The warning should be on the page where you input the card details for your account, the Xbox page where the transaction is finalised, not on every single game where you can pay to open a box.

CoD, Smite, Overwatch to name a few.

I'm probably not making my point very well.
It's less about the actual money as it is the seeming sense that opening 1000 (or whatever) boxes should pretty much ensure the desired result, and the assumption that because it doesn't that the game is at fault rather than the player having unrealistic expectations.
Whether this is through the sort of messages that gambling websites employ to warn their clients that they have been losing money hand over fist so "are you sure that putting £50 on that digi-roulette wheel is a good idea?" or a box in the corner of the load screen.

And putting the onus on XB/PS would be no less silly than someone blaming the state of Nevada for ones gambling problem because "They were the ones who let me into town" or blaming Microsoft for being late for work cos you slept in after an all nighter binge watching Dexter on Netflix.

thejawlives · August 2016

"WARNING: This game may destroy your marriage.
WARNING: This game may kill you if you play it 30 days without sleep.
WARNING: This game may effect your grades at school.
WARNING: This game may cause you to lose your job."

Hahahaha!

mordekai · August 2016

thejawlives said:
"WARNING: This game may destroy your marriage.

WARNING: This game may kill you if you play it 30 days without sleep.

WARNING: This game may effect your grades at school.

WARNING: This game may cause you to lose your job."

Hahahaha!

They'd never be THAT honest.

loboguild · August 2016

Legal issue. This might be covered my payment regulations already, because while some underage could gamble, they shouldn't be able to spend money for it.

I generally agree though, especially since PWE does not want us to publish lockbox percentages on their platforms.

omegarealities · August 2016

Buying Zen is not gambling. It is an in game currency that is used in many ways. Some people use it to buy mounts, others to buy refining supplies, others use it for VIP. Then there are those who buy keys with the unreasonable expectation of hitting the jackpot. Also, when you use a key you do not lose, you always get something. It just may not be the thing that they really want.

As for as the underage gambling, that is the parents fault. The parents are the ones who allow the kids access to the credit card.

asjohnson · August 2016

thefabricant said:
Yes, they should. The reality is, the law hasn't caught up to the internet yet. In the case of neverwinter, the game is labelled 13 (I think?) and the game contains gambling. This means they are technically selling the ability to gamble to people under the age of 18 (or whatever the legal age for gambling is in your country.) The problem with trying to put laws in place on the internet though, is firstly how do you enforce them and secondly, which country's laws do you go with. The problem is that different countries have different laws and there is no practical way to get around this until there is a body set up to, "govern the internet" so to speak, which has a set of laws agreed upon by all countries (good luck with that.)

Sry, but its not technically gambling in the legal sense of the word.

Gambling: is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.

Nothing in a video game is real life, nor can it be brought out of the game to be used for material gain. So it is not gambling in the legal sense. Take the CS:GO scandal as an example. IT was gambling because you could sell the FICTIONAL SKINS for REAL MONEY outside of the game. Neverwinter has nothing like that at all.

Therefore, no they do not need to warn people at all. If they want to waste away 100's and 1000's of dollars to get things that have ZERO value in real life, then that's all on them.

End of story, no need to argue anymore.

mrroofer · August 2016

Well I gave up expectations of getting anything good out of lockboxes a long time ago lol

mordekai · August 2016

mrroofer#2455 said:
Well I gave up expectations of getting anything good out of lockboxes a long time ago lol

I open one a day, and hand on heart this happened and if Strum or whoever wants to check my log they can...
Yesterday I bought a green Greater Imperial Waistband of Honour with the intention of leveling it up over time. Equipped it and left it intending to chuck some RP at it over the weekend.
This morning I recovered my key, opened my Firemane lockbox and got... Nobanion's Artifact Pack.
Expecting to at least get a purple or some blue refining stones I opened it up and Boom... BLUE Greater Imperial Waistband of Honour...

Even when I win, I lose...

Since the green is equipped I'm now forced to look up whether to sell the first thing I've ever got that SHOULD have been a bit special, or whether the best result would be to use the double RP to refine the green to upgrade the blue or vice versa....

Ok... as problems go, it's not a bad one to have, but I had to make sure my son was well out of earshot before yelling "YOU HAVE GOT TO BE HAMSTER KIDDING ME!!!"

mrroofer · August 2016

I would use the blue one for 2x rp b c I'm pretty sure it's not worth much on the ah

enicegeo · August 2016

asjohnson#4476 said:
Sry, but its not technically gambling in the legal sense of the word.

Gambling: is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.

Nothing in a video game is real life, nor can it be brought out of the game to be used for material gain. So it is not gambling in the legal sense. Take the CS:GO scandal as an example. IT was gambling because you could sell the FICTIONAL SKINS for REAL MONEY outside of the game. Neverwinter has nothing like that at all.

Therefore, no they do not need to warn people at all. If they want to waste away 100's and 1000's of dollars to get things that have ZERO value in real life, then that's all on them.

End of story, no need to argue anymore.

It doesn't matter if it can be brought out of the game or not. Decades ago when pinball machines were all the fad they fell under gambling laws as gaming machines. One such operator offered players free games to continue playing the pinball game if they reached a certain high score. They won nothing of value except not having to insert another coin to play again. It was considered gambling by state law.

asjohnson · August 2016

enicegeo said:

asjohnson#4476 said:
Sry, but its not technically gambling in the legal sense of the word.

Gambling: is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.

Nothing in a video game is real life, nor can it be brought out of the game to be used for material gain. So it is not gambling in the legal sense. Take the CS:GO scandal as an example. IT was gambling because you could sell the FICTIONAL SKINS for REAL MONEY outside of the game. Neverwinter has nothing like that at all.

Therefore, no they do not need to warn people at all. If they want to waste away 100's and 1000's of dollars to get things that have ZERO value in real life, then that's all on them.

End of story, no need to argue anymore.
It doesn't matter if it can be brought out of the game or not. Decades ago when pinball machines were all the fad they fell under gambling laws as gaming machines. One such operator offered players free games to continue playing the pinball game if they reached a certain high score. They won nothing of value except not having to insert another coin to play again. It was considered gambling by state law.

Laws change. We are in 2016 not 1960. Your "Example" has ZERO relevance to the current circumstances.

armadeonx · September 2016

You can't really say that unless you know the law has changed - if it's still on the books then it could well apply.

On the point of minors, you need a non-cash payment method to purchase zen - minors really shouldn't have this.

My personal position is I realised the situation very early on in the game and haven't spent anything on it since. They've had a bit of money out of me, that'll have to do for them.

thefabricant · September 2016

asjohnson#4476 said:

thefabricant said:
Yes, they should. The reality is, the law hasn't caught up to the internet yet. In the case of neverwinter, the game is labelled 13 (I think?) and the game contains gambling. This means they are technically selling the ability to gamble to people under the age of 18 (or whatever the legal age for gambling is in your country.) The problem with trying to put laws in place on the internet though, is firstly how do you enforce them and secondly, which country's laws do you go with. The problem is that different countries have different laws and there is no practical way to get around this until there is a body set up to, "govern the internet" so to speak, which has a set of laws agreed upon by all countries (good luck with that.)
Sry, but its not technically gambling in the legal sense of the word.

Gambling: is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.

Nothing in a video game is real life, nor can it be brought out of the game to be used for material gain. So it is not gambling in the legal sense. Take the CS:GO scandal as an example. IT was gambling because you could sell the FICTIONAL SKINS for REAL MONEY outside of the game. Neverwinter has nothing like that at all.

Therefore, no they do not need to warn people at all. If they want to waste away 100's and 1000's of dollars to get things that have ZERO value in real life, then that's all on them.

End of story, no need to argue anymore.

Actually, it can be. I am not going to mention how in NW since it is technically against the ToS (but people still do do it) but if you look at an example like CS:GO, people buy and sell the items that they acquire from gambling on loot crates on 3rd party sites all the time. The point is, it does have monetary value. Games like NW argue that virtual items have no monetary value, but its fairly easy to prove that 1) they do and 2) people are already trading them. Just because it isn't within the ToS, doesn't mean that it isn't happening.

mordekai · September 2016

Something doesn't need to have an intrinsic cash amount attached to it to be "of value".

Besides, it's not about whether lockboxes technically count as gambling.
It's about managing the expectations of the players who TREAT it like gambling, and vent their losers remorse by arguing that the game is rigged against them

In that sense it is EXACTLY like buying scratch cards.

You see on the news that someone just won a fortune off their first ever ticket, and you go out and buy a thousand to win that baby yourself, cos its not fair that that guy who only ever bought won is now driving an Aston Martin and living on his own island and you buy dozens every day and never even break even.

You are going to feel like HAMSTER if all you get are a bunch of small wins that cover less than 10% of your stake...
But seriously... did you really think you'd win the jackpot?
No... of course not.
And if you went on a forum and bemoaned how the lotto is stacked against against you, while some like minded people might also be demanding the odds of winning a fortune be lowered so they have a better chance, most people would reply along the lines of, "what the actual HAMSTER did you expect???"

Should mmo games like Neverwinter carry "Gamble Aware" type warnings?

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