Yes, they should. The reality is, the law hasn't caught up to the internet yet. In the case of neverwinter, the game is labelled 13 (I think?) and the game contains gambling. This means they are technically selling the ability to gamble to people under the age of 18 (or whatever the legal age for gambling is in your country.) The problem with trying to put laws in place on the internet though, is firstly how do you enforce them and secondly, which country's laws do you go with. The problem is that different countries have different laws and there is no practical way to get around this until there is a body set up to, "govern the internet" so to speak, which has a set of laws agreed upon by all countries (good luck with that.)
Sry, but its not technically gambling in the legal sense of the word.
Gambling: is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.
Nothing in a video game is real life, nor can it be brought out of the game to be used for material gain. So it is not gambling in the legal sense. Take the CS:GO scandal as an example. IT was gambling because you could sell the FICTIONAL SKINS for REAL MONEY outside of the game. Neverwinter has nothing like that at all.
Therefore, no they do not need to warn people at all. If they want to waste away 100's and 1000's of dollars to get things that have ZERO value in real life, then that's all on them.
End of story, no need to argue anymore.
Actually, it can be. I am not going to mention how in NW since it is technically against the ToS (but people still do do it) but if you look at an example like CS:GO, people buy and sell the items that they acquire from gambling on loot crates on 3rd party sites all the time. The point is, it does have monetary value. Games like NW argue that virtual items have no monetary value, but its fairly easy to prove that 1) they do and 2) people are already trading them. Just because it isn't within the ToS, doesn't mean that it isn't happening.
The people that are doing that in violation of the TOS. You go after those people. Do not destroy free-to-play games just because a few people are abusing the system.
You can farm on 10 characters each day to convert RAD to AD then to Zen to purchase keys to open boxes and thus no credit card transaction is needed. This means the gambling warning needs to be placed at the credit card transaction screen and not in the game itself.
Again, it's NOT about whether buying Zen and opening lockboxes is literally, technically, or legally "gambling".
It's about whether or not some sort of message, call it a "warning" for want of a better term, would help players manage their expectations better on mmo's that employ RNG loot drops. That by buying, farming, refining hundreds or even thousands of drop boxes a player still only "slightly" improves their chances, and that when the "Super Gizmo of Many Splendoured Mega Buffs" doesn't fall on the floor it isn't that the game developers hate them or the platform on which they play. But that those things really ARE rare... not just "sort of rare, and if I try really hard to get one I should be rewarded with one".
If people understand this BEFORE they feel the gamblers remorse of losing all that Zen/refining/whatever, they might feel less angry about it, and enjoy their game more. Or even lead them to not burning loads of stuff that they could put to better use in what is always likely to be a fools errand
Yes... people "should" understand and know better.
Nothing will change the minds of people who have the unreasonable expectations of winning the jackpot.
Nothing will change the minds of people who have the "it's not fair, I'm a victim" attitude. They will always have the attitude that they deserve everything that someone else has.
Buying Zen is not gambling. It is a in game currency used to buy many different items in the game.
Let's put warnings on everything...
Before you buy some weights at a store, you have "sign" an acknowledgement that if you drop it your foot it might cause physical harm.
Before you buy a can of beans, you have to "sign" an acknowledgement that when opening the can you may cut your finger.
If they have to put a warning before they buy a key. Something like, "I hereby acknowledge that by purchasing this key that the item I get might not live up to my unreasonable expectations."
But if the game has explained in simple terms how it works, and that a 1/100 chance doesn't mean "if you do this 100 times it will guarantee success" the end result might not be everyone understanding how odds and minimal chances work like someone with average or above intelligence ought to, but it might stop so many people bitching about how the game hates them, and how "I bet it's not like this on PS or PC." and so on.
But if the game has explained in simple terms how it works, and that a 1/100 chance doesn't mean "if you do this 100 times it will guarantee success" the end result might not be everyone understanding how odds and minimal chances work like someone with average or above intelligence ought to, but it might stop so many people bitching about how the game hates them, and how "I bet it's not like this on PS or PC." and so on.
Sadly it will not stop the complaining. It's human nature. Unless people want intervention in EVERY part of their lives, people need to start using a miniscule piece of common sense.
Using the lotto/scratchcard example... everyone knows the likelihood of winning the jackpot. As a consequence you are unlikely to ever see someone moaning about buying 100 or 1000 and never becoming a millionaire... cos everyone knows that such a statement is frankly stupid.
When people complain about stuff like this they hope to garner support from people in the same position. But if they understand that everyone is likely to say, "can't you read?" or "what do you expect"... to be honest... they'll probably just HAMSTER and moan about PS4 and PC being the only thing PWE instead... or how their character has been nerfed as a personal attack on them.
Why is this game being compared to scratch cards? When you play the lottery you're playing to win money, with neverwinter you are 100% never going to win money. And the keys aren't directly linked to spending money, its simply a choice you can make.
This game should teach people about self control if anything.
LGPG Leader Indy - XB1 & PS4 - GF xeV Indy - PS4 - TR Nde - XB1 - HR GT: its indy time PSN: itsindytime Twitch: indygoinlive The Kanye West of Neverwinter
You don't see any similarity between a person buying lots of scratch cards and experiencing anger and gamblers remorse when they lose, and people running hundreds or thousands of RNG loot drops and experiencing anger and gamblers remorse when they lose?
I may have mentioned (a couple of times...) that its not the money that's the issue.
It's about helping people realise that RNG loot drops in MMOs don't care how many times you pull the handle. They don't think "this guy's really trying, oh what the hell... I'll give him a mythic death canon. He deserves it."
As much as experience alone 'should' teach them this, there is an endless line of people angry and venting about how the game is clearly "broken" or "rigged" because of their individual inability to get the loot drop they wanted, or how they "needed 15 wards when it should only have needed 4" or whatever their individual beef is.
But now, having tried to explain the point for the umpteenth time and people STILL thinking that the point relates to the wagering of money, I can see how hard a simple explanation system is when trying to convey information on NWO.
I'm going to say PWE will not voluntarily place a message to say anything but dreams come true and try harder. They want and need carrot chasers that have no idea what this RNG truly is.
With that being said...even if they did place a banner stating the true statistics and the unlikely chance that most will never see thier name prominently displayed on the sceen, they would play anyway because in some weird human nature mentality...we all think we are different and better than the stats suggests.
You can farm on 10 characters each day to convert RAD to AD then to Zen to purchase keys to open boxes and thus no credit card transaction is needed. This means the gambling warning needs to be placed at the credit card transaction screen and not in the game itself.
Just a note... this is actually going to change soon, the way Alt's earn RAD is going to be eliminated.
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
RNG baby.... play the game long enough and you will eventually pull a Massive prize from a Lockbox. I did with 1 or 2 keys a day. Mind you it was back when the Armoured Axe Beak was the prize... also Mounts were pointless back then (no bonus etc) so sold it for a few million
Guuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuutted
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
Too many people think the odds change the more they play.
Use one key... 1:1000 Use a second key... 1:999 Use a third key... 1:998
They think that eventually the odds will come down to a 1:1 chance in that 1000th key. But I just do not think that it is PWE's respondsiblity to teach people that. Do we expect a car dealer to teach a car buyer how to drive safely?
At some point people are going to take responsibility for themselves, or those decisions will be taken away from us.
Secondly THESE ITEMS HAVE REAL VALUE. There are 3rd party sites and forums that are set up to sell and trade this stuff for cash money every day. The items are brought out of the game as cash in ones pocket through PayPal ussually. I was just rebuttaling a few posts there.
I'm going to say PWE will not voluntarily place a message to say anything but dreams come true and try harder. They want and need carrot chasers that have no idea what this RNG truly is.
With that being said...even if they did place a banner stating the true statistics and the unlikely chance that most will never see thier name prominently displayed on the sceen, they would play anyway because in some weird human nature mentality...we all think we are different and better than the stats suggests.
That's why anyone plays the odds. People have weird little superstitions... like one guy who told me he has 6 toons but only ever opens lockboxes with his GWF because that toon gets better results... it's the same as a rabbits foot or a lucky shirt at the roulette table.
The Uk lottery had to change its tagline from "it could be YOU" cos too many people genuinely believed that it could be them, when in all likelihood they'd be lucky to make back 1\50 of their stake over a year. They now show annoying celebrities with the tag line "don't let it be them" which to my mind is worse cos me buying a ticket doesn't reduce anyone else's chances of winning. If they pick the six numbers that get drawn, me buying a ticket only adds to the pot they win.
They don't need to publish the actual stats... just a sort of disclaimer that isn't worded to absolve PWE of responsibility, (that ALWAYS reads like "HAMSTER covering") but to to explain just HOW rare these wondrous things are in a plain speaking sense that makes it more aspirational and less like an entitlement for the gind. That's for other mega gear.
Secondly THESE ITEMS HAVE REAL VALUE. There are 3rd party sites and forums that are set up to sell and trade this stuff for cash money every day. The items are brought out of the game as cash in ones pocket through PayPal ussually. I was just rebuttaling a few posts there.
Do we expect a car dealer to teach a car buyer how to drive safely?
It would probably be some level of expected due dilligence for them to make sure you are qualified and licensed before allowing you to drive it off the forecourt.
Different levels of professional responsibility exists in each different profession.
You can try and compare getting mad at losing on scratch cards, to losing on lockboxs but theres 2 basic reasons why they aren't comparable.
1.) money - you can try and avoid this but if you're not playing for money, you're not gambling. You can say you're playing a game of chance at which you may take a loss, and thats if you can prove theres any value in digital currencies, which there really isn't because theres only as much value as someone is willing to pay (and since selling anything in nw is against ToS, you aren't selling goods, so no real value was lost).
2.) lockboxs =\= loss - everything you get from a lockbox has a sort of value, therefore you are never not rewarded (yes double neg) and any misconception that you deserved a better reward is simply your interpretation of the odds.
LGPG Leader Indy - XB1 & PS4 - GF xeV Indy - PS4 - TR Nde - XB1 - HR GT: its indy time PSN: itsindytime Twitch: indygoinlive The Kanye West of Neverwinter
I'm not trying to sound patronising here, but you do understand that to be comparable two things actually need to different don't you?
Comparing two things that are identical on the fundamental point of comparison is an exercise in futility. By comparing two things you are noting the similarities, not dismissing them because of the differences. At its simplest iteration that's basically what comparison IS.
To be able to compsare two things you have acknowledge that they are different. The comparison of two things that both involve similar aspects of behaviour, such as repeatedly trying to "win" on a random chance, and the remorse at continued loss doesn't stop because cash changes hands in one but not the other
There are sufficient similarities between numerous forms of established "gambling" and the way some mmo loot drops are treated by a large number of players for a comparison to stand up to scrutiny.
They aren't identical... but that's the point. By looking at the similarities you may be able to learn from one and apply that knowledge to the other.
Money doesn't have to change hands for similarities to exist, and not getting the one special item from hundreds or thousand of tries, regardless of trade bars and other prizes is viewed by many people as losing.
I'm not going to break down the math for how lockboxs work because they are absurdly profitable even if you're only "losing."
The point is when you actually gamble, you will often walk away empty handed. Lockboxs are nothing like that because you always earn something, and when used correctly, you're still making a hefty profit. I'm not sure if you're aware who Doomsayer is but hes the one person i enjoy using as reference when people say lockboxs are a scam. He opened 10k lockboxs and recieved 5 legendaries and 49 epic drops. Staticially he got the exact return he was supposed to get based off lockbox percentages, but he turned that 300m into well over 400m because of how generous lockboxs in reality are.
If you want to continue this thread on the premise that its unfair to have 2000:1 odds, go right ahead. This is a F2P game and you are in no way forced to spend money. You're only making the connection here because the option exists to spend money and you (and others) obviously have some buyers remorse. Learn the lesson that if you want to gamble, do it on something that is a real gamble. Lockboxs are in no way a risk because you will always generate value which can be used further.
Your next logical argument should be "running castle never is gambling because i didn't get an orcus wand after 3000 runs."
LGPG Leader Indy - XB1 & PS4 - GF xeV Indy - PS4 - TR Nde - XB1 - HR GT: its indy time PSN: itsindytime Twitch: indygoinlive The Kanye West of Neverwinter
No one makes people gamble either, but it is regulated and controlled so that fairness can be ensured. Free to play games such as these walk a fine line since there are monetary transactions that are taking place but no tangible property changes hands. Some would say prizes are irrelevant, either money or in game items (which legally can be considered virtual property). Most would agree however that the fact a financial transaction is taking place is enough to warrant a closer look.
Free to play games are also notorious for hiding the "chance" to win percentage, and the method in which the winners are chosen (hidden inside a wall of proprietary code), which differs from other forms of gambling. The software license probably doesn't cover the extent of these odds either since they can be freely manipulated at will by tweaking the source code. A disclaimer isn't as ridiculous as it sounds in this case.
I place much of the cause of this conversation on the trend of "You placed 47nth out of 47 place, but here's a nice shiny for showing up." Everyone should get the first place award.
I place much of the cause of this conversation on the trend of "You placed 47nth out of 47 place, but here's a nice shiny for showing up." Everyone should get the first place award.
Exactly. The same reason some schools are considering not recognizing valedictorians anymore.
Comments
I am neither here nor there, for I am NevrCene
NevrCene: TRMelisandre: SW
Brienne: GWF
Guild : Mystic Dawn (GH20)
It's about whether or not some sort of message, call it a "warning" for want of a better term, would help players manage their expectations better on mmo's that employ RNG loot drops. That by buying, farming, refining hundreds or even thousands of drop boxes a player still only "slightly" improves their chances, and that when the "Super Gizmo of Many Splendoured Mega Buffs" doesn't fall on the floor it isn't that the game developers hate them or the platform on which they play. But that those things really ARE rare... not just "sort of rare, and if I try really hard to get one I should be rewarded with one".
If people understand this BEFORE they feel the gamblers remorse of losing all that Zen/refining/whatever, they might feel less angry about it, and enjoy their game more. Or even lead them to not burning loads of stuff that they could put to better use in what is always likely to be a fools errand
Yes... people "should" understand and know better.
But guess what?
Nothing will change the minds of people who have the "it's not fair, I'm a victim" attitude. They will always have the attitude that they deserve everything that someone else has.
Buying Zen is not gambling. It is a in game currency used to buy many different items in the game.
Let's put warnings on everything...
Before you buy some weights at a store, you have "sign" an acknowledgement that if you drop it your foot it might cause physical harm.
Before you buy a can of beans, you have to "sign" an acknowledgement that when opening the can you may cut your finger.
If they have to put a warning before they buy a key. Something like, "I hereby acknowledge that by purchasing this key that the item I get might not live up to my unreasonable expectations."
But if the game has explained in simple terms how it works, and that a 1/100 chance doesn't mean "if you do this 100 times it will guarantee success" the end result might not be everyone understanding how odds and minimal chances work like someone with average or above intelligence ought to, but it might stop so many people bitching about how the game hates them, and how "I bet it's not like this on PS or PC." and so on.
Using the lotto/scratchcard example... everyone knows the likelihood of winning the jackpot.
As a consequence you are unlikely to ever see someone moaning about buying 100 or 1000 and never becoming a millionaire... cos everyone knows that such a statement is frankly stupid.
When people complain about stuff like this they hope to garner support from people in the same position.
But if they understand that everyone is likely to say, "can't you read?" or "what do you expect"... to be honest... they'll probably just HAMSTER and moan about PS4 and PC being the only thing PWE instead... or how their character has been nerfed as a personal attack on them.
This game should teach people about self control if anything.
Indy - XB1 & PS4 - GF
xeV Indy - PS4 - TR
Nde - XB1 - HR
GT: its indy time
PSN: itsindytime
Twitch: indygoinlive
The Kanye West of Neverwinter
I may have mentioned (a couple of times...) that its not the money that's the issue.
It's about helping people realise that RNG loot drops in MMOs don't care how many times you pull the handle. They don't think "this guy's really trying, oh what the hell... I'll give him a mythic death canon. He deserves it."
As much as experience alone 'should' teach them this, there is an endless line of people angry and venting about how the game is clearly "broken" or "rigged" because of their individual inability to get the loot drop they wanted, or how they "needed 15 wards when it should only have needed 4" or whatever their individual beef is.
But now, having tried to explain the point for the umpteenth time and people STILL thinking that the point relates to the wagering of money, I can see how hard a simple explanation system is when trying to convey information on NWO.
With that being said...even if they did place a banner stating the true statistics and the unlikely chance that most will never see thier name prominently displayed on the sceen, they would play anyway because in some weird human nature mentality...we all think we are different and better than the stats suggests.
Alts :
Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
Member of Q-Snipe
When and where are the meetings at? Friday and saturday nights at moonstone mask seems like a good idea.
"I need help"
Guuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuutted
Alts :
Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
Member of Q-Snipe
Use one key... 1:1000
Use a second key... 1:999
Use a third key... 1:998
They think that eventually the odds will come down to a 1:1 chance in that 1000th key. But I just do not think that it is PWE's respondsiblity to teach people that. Do we expect a car dealer to teach a car buyer how to drive safely?
At some point people are going to take responsibility for themselves, or those decisions will be taken away from us.
People have weird little superstitions... like one guy who told me he has 6 toons but only ever opens lockboxes with his GWF because that toon gets better results... it's the same as a rabbits foot or a lucky shirt at the roulette table.
The Uk lottery had to change its tagline from "it could be YOU" cos too many people genuinely believed that it could be them, when in all likelihood they'd be lucky to make back 1\50 of their stake over a year. They now show annoying celebrities with the tag line "don't let it be them" which to my mind is worse cos me buying a ticket doesn't reduce anyone else's chances of winning. If they pick the six numbers that get drawn, me buying a ticket only adds to the pot they win.
They don't need to publish the actual stats... just a sort of disclaimer that isn't worded to absolve PWE of responsibility, (that ALWAYS reads like "HAMSTER covering") but to to explain just HOW rare these wondrous things are in a plain speaking sense that makes it more aspirational and less like an entitlement for the gind. That's for other mega gear.
Different levels of professional responsibility exists in each different profession.
1.) money - you can try and avoid this but if you're not playing for money, you're not gambling. You can say you're playing a game of chance at which you may take a loss, and thats if you can prove theres any value in digital currencies, which there really isn't because theres only as much value as someone is willing to pay (and since selling anything in nw is against ToS, you aren't selling goods, so no real value was lost).
2.) lockboxs =\= loss - everything you get from a lockbox has a sort of value, therefore you are never not rewarded (yes double neg) and any misconception that you deserved a better reward is simply your interpretation of the odds.
Indy - XB1 & PS4 - GF
xeV Indy - PS4 - TR
Nde - XB1 - HR
GT: its indy time
PSN: itsindytime
Twitch: indygoinlive
The Kanye West of Neverwinter
Comparing two things that are identical on the fundamental point of comparison is an exercise in futility.
By comparing two things you are noting the similarities, not dismissing them because of the differences.
At its simplest iteration that's basically what comparison IS.
To be able to compsare two things you have acknowledge that they are different.
The comparison of two things that both involve similar aspects of behaviour, such as repeatedly trying to "win" on a random chance, and the remorse at continued loss doesn't stop because cash changes hands in one but not the other
There are sufficient similarities between numerous forms of established "gambling" and the way some mmo loot drops are treated by a large number of players for a comparison to stand up to scrutiny.
They aren't identical... but that's the point. By looking at the similarities you may be able to learn from one and apply that knowledge to the other.
Money doesn't have to change hands for similarities to exist, and not getting the one special item from hundreds or thousand of tries, regardless of trade bars and other prizes is viewed by many people as losing.
The point is when you actually gamble, you will often walk away empty handed. Lockboxs are nothing like that because you always earn something, and when used correctly, you're still making a hefty profit. I'm not sure if you're aware who Doomsayer is but hes the one person i enjoy using as reference when people say lockboxs are a scam. He opened 10k lockboxs and recieved 5 legendaries and 49 epic drops. Staticially he got the exact return he was supposed to get based off lockbox percentages, but he turned that 300m into well over 400m because of how generous lockboxs in reality are.
If you want to continue this thread on the premise that its unfair to have 2000:1 odds, go right ahead. This is a F2P game and you are in no way forced to spend money. You're only making the connection here because the option exists to spend money and you (and others) obviously have some buyers remorse. Learn the lesson that if you want to gamble, do it on something that is a real gamble. Lockboxs are in no way a risk because you will always generate value which can be used further.
Your next logical argument should be "running castle never is gambling because i didn't get an orcus wand after 3000 runs."
Indy - XB1 & PS4 - GF
xeV Indy - PS4 - TR
Nde - XB1 - HR
GT: its indy time
PSN: itsindytime
Twitch: indygoinlive
The Kanye West of Neverwinter
Free to play games are also notorious for hiding the "chance" to win percentage, and the method in which the winners are chosen (hidden inside a wall of proprietary code), which differs from other forms of gambling. The software license probably doesn't cover the extent of these odds either since they can be freely manipulated at will by tweaking the source code. A disclaimer isn't as ridiculous as it sounds in this case.
[]Full Metal Witch[]
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