Arrows are very devastating projetiles in real life and modern bows..have more kinetic energy that many powerful hunting rifles and their calibers of ammo.
That's utter Bullsh*t!
Kinetic Energy of a modern 540 grains Hunting arrow at 220 fps: ~79J Kinetic Energy of a .30-06 Springfield: ~4KJ
Now granted, you might have thought of carried momentum, but even there you're off:
And even IF the arrow had a higher momentum, it still has a vastly higher sectional density:
Hunting Arrow: ~.653 psi .30-06: ~.285 psi
So, the arrow is vastly better at penetrating the soft tissue, which means it retains a higher amout of its kinetic energy and momentum, transfers less to the target and as such has less stopping power.
So, you are wrong on all possible accounts.
Edit: Typos corrected
seems to me that u have great misunderstanding of subject.
to shoot for example grizzly bear u need about 90J+ PBE with bow and arrrow BUT to hunt the same bear with rifle u need at least 3000J at muzzle and im not imperialist so i have a bit trouble understanding archaic mesure system like feets pounds and that kind of stuff why cant u be civilised and use metric system like the rest of normal civilised world?
but i will correct u on only 1 issue.
While that 30-06 have 4KJ on muzzle with 145grain tip when that tip hits the target it leaves at the target only a fraction of that energy..arrow leaves all of its energy. Bullets kills with hydrodynamic shock not with KE..so if u hit the target with a bullet and that shock doesnt happend ( and it doesnt happen that often ) bullet simply pass throgh 4eg Elk body that elk too often carry that wound for miles..if u didnt hit it somwhere where that elk would bleed out.4eg stomak wounds elks are known even to survive..and im speaking of hits from a lot stronger rifles than mare 30-06 like magnum calibers 300WM and above.
i'm fine if you want to give "HR more DPS" but remove some of the Roots, That Perma-Root build are just annoying"
It's really incredible to me that 3 mods after Crushing Roots was introduced, some people are still complianing about permadaze. You're obviously pvping without pvp gear, so you should expect to be crushed by anyone and everyone. People wearing the burning or lionsmane sets and no other special pvp gear or exceptional control resist just hop around as if they aren't being hit with roots at all. There is no permadaze problem. There hasn't been for a very long time. Get yourself some gear, please, before repeating this tired nerf request.
every begginer gets crushed lot of times by almost everybody cause no gear and no expirience with the game HR is added later in the game and as is it will ALWAYS have balance issue basic problem with balance is impossibility to make it artifically..if u wanna make things balanced u only end up with less balance then u had before u started balancing..balance is always attained by it self..problem is in perception and intet..folks always find nonintended ways to play and exploit right? and when developers want to "get back in control" ..they loose it..or they loose players which is bad
fact is..HR as a class is bad at range combat and is even worse at melee. in order to be what is intended to be it have to be good at both. if its not good at both stance dance has no point. even that 1 fairly effective HR trapper build is LESS effective than respective builds of other classes. not to mention that its NOT the way most folks WANT to play HR character
HR and PvP issues man..
every class should have strong sides and weaknesses and as it should be u play on ure strong sides u cover ur weaknesses..but HR simply have too many of weaknesses..almost all of those can simply be solved by adding base damage. with 50% more base damage HR would be competable with any other regardles of trapper no trapper or any other good possible builds..even halving CDs of skill will solve most of the issues but in that regard people who play HR and play it really good would be at advantage right?
Please fix our buggy Passives. Aspect of the Serpent gives 2% crit per stack for a total of 4%. Suppose to be 2.5% crit per stack for a total of 5%. Also the max dmg it is giving is 31% not 34%. Aspect of the Pack doesn't work correctly at Rank 4 and functions as Rank 1 at that Rank. Lastly Blade Storm doesn't with proc with Plant Growth. HR Dragonborns encounter powers cool downs dont function properly with the Trapper at times. Absolutely nobody is getting Action Point Gain stats added into there "Offensive and Healing" from insignias, jewel kits, and all artifacts.
Arrows are very devastating projetiles in real life and modern bows..have more kinetic energy that many powerful hunting rifles and their calibers of ammo.
That's utter Bullsh*t!
Kinetic Energy of a modern 540 grains Hunting arrow at 220 fps: ~79J Kinetic Energy of a .30-06 Springfield: ~4KJ
Now granted, you might have thought of carried momentum, but even there you're off:
And even IF the arrow had a higher momentum, it still has a vastly higher sectional density:
Hunting Arrow: ~.653 psi .30-06: ~.285 psi
So, the arrow is vastly better at penetrating the soft tissue, which means it retains a higher amout of its kinetic energy and momentum, transfers less to the target and as such has less stopping power.
So, you are wrong on all possible accounts.
Edit: Typos corrected
seems to me that u have great misunderstanding of subject.
to shoot for example grizzly bear u need about 90J+ PBE with bow and arrrow BUT to hunt the same bear with rifle u need at least 3000J at muzzle and im not imperialist so i have a bit trouble understanding archaic mesure system like feets pounds and that kind of stuff why cant u be civilised and use metric system like the rest of normal civilised world?
but i will correct u on only 1 issue.
While that 30-06 have 4KJ on muzzle with 145grain tip when that tip hits the target it leaves at the target only a fraction of that energy..arrow leaves all of its energy. Bullets kills with hydrodynamic shock not with KE..so if u hit the target with a bullet and that shock doesnt happend ( and it doesnt happen that often ) bullet simply pass throgh 4eg Elk body that elk too often carry that wound for miles..if u didnt hit it somwhere where that elk would bleed out.4eg stomak wounds elks are known even to survive..and im speaking of hits from a lot stronger rifles than mare 30-06 like magnum calibers 300WM and above.
its offtopic anyway
Seems to me even if you have difficulty grasping English measurements vs metric measurements you should be capable of recognizing larger numbers vs smaller numbers.
Also, if arrows were better at killing things than bullets, the nations of the earth would be equipping their armies with bows. Seems kind of self-explanatory.
i'm fine if you want to give "HR more DPS" but remove some of the Roots, That Perma-Root build are just annoying"
It's really incredible to me that 3 mods after Crushing Roots was introduced, some people are still complianing about permadaze. You're obviously pvping without pvp gear, so you should expect to be crushed by anyone and everyone. People wearing the burning or lionsmane sets and no other special pvp gear or exceptional control resist just hop around as if they aren't being hit with roots at all. There is no permadaze problem. There hasn't been for a very long time. Get yourself some gear, please, before repeating this tired nerf request.
nicely said i completely agree, though i rarely pvp i understand gear is required; for anything, wear the right kind of gear for what you plan to play pve pvp dungeoning
Three things I would rather prefer done to Marauder's Escape:
That it provides a break from all CC, allowing the HR to "escape" as the encounter says.
That the HR is immune to targeting when he leaps back out of the fray.
That the HR is able to use Marauder's Escape when airborne.
i agree with all these though i would like to add something that the escape also either slows or immobilizes targets around the area or the target you are targeting, i also want to add that this does no damage just a status condition that is a movement impairing effect
I am one of those who always wanted to play a Ranger who's primary emphasis was in Archery. But I found it so weak I had to switch to nice build I found online that emphasized Trapping. While I've come to like it, I still would like a viable primary Archery build. So I went to the preview server and did a few hours of testing... I don't pretend to be the best at this or maybe any good at it at all. But in my own personal attempt I found the Archery to still be sub par to Trapper. (I did no testing of the Combat tree)
This is pure theory craft, but I think maybe on a single target like a boss mob and with the capstone ability of Predator and being able to apply Prey to a target and do 40% more damage, Archery might be pretty close to Trapper. But at the end of a Dungeon run, when you add up all the damage done to the minions and number of kills, I think the Trapper is still going to be far ahead in DPS.
I know, this is about the most unscientific review ever; I didn't try to sight any numbers and I am just stating my overall impression. This mainly because someone who is much more technically talented can do a better job or someone might come up with some unexpected synergistic combination of powers that have a stacking affect that could greatly increase the Archery damage I was seeing and completely change my opinion. Plus I know this is sort of the first pass on the HR changes and even more changes are likely coming before the final implemented changes go into effect.
So for now I will just say in my opinion and it's only an opinion; that Archery still looks a little weak to me. I will continue to watch the forums and look at the new builds that will be posted and give them a try as they come out. And I will be hopefully optimistic that more good changes will continue to come for the HR.
I am one of those who always wanted to play a Ranger who's primary emphasis was in Archery. But I found it so weak I had to switch to nice build I found online that emphasized Trapping. While I've come to like it, I still would like a viable primary Archery build. So I went to the preview server and did a few hours of testing... I don't pretend to be the best at this or maybe any good at it at all. But in my own personal attempt I found the Archery to still be sub par to Trapper. (I did no testing of the Combat tree)
This is pure theory craft, but I think maybe on a single target like a boss mob and with the capstone ability of Predator and being able to apply Prey to a target and do 40% more damage, Archery might be pretty close to Trapper. But at the end of a Dungeon run, when you add up all the damage done to the minions and number of kills, I think the Trapper is still going to be far ahead in DPS.
I know, this is about the most unscientific review ever; I didn't try to sight any numbers and I am just stating my overall impression. This mainly because someone who is much more technically talented can do a better job or someone might come up with some unexpected synergistic combination of powers that have a stacking affect that could greatly increase the Archery damage I was seeing and completely change my opinion. Plus I know this is sort of the first pass on the HR changes and even more changes are likely coming before the final implemented changes go into effect.
So for now I will just say in my opinion and it's only an opinion; that Archery still looks a little weak to me. I will continue to watch the forums and look at the new builds that will be posted and give them a try as they come out. And I will be hopefully optimistic that more good changes will continue to come for the HR.
I DId made a few hours of test and have respected my HR 3 or 4 times and I felt exactly what you predicted, archery is a little better but not enough to make other people drop trapper tree...
I really wish more changings to bring Archery more close to trapper, and Buffs not nerfs... I will stay playing as Hybrid Archer+Blades but is for fun, i feel useless in dungeons on this toon...
OMFG I can't believe they increased our dodge range!!!!!! 30% more distance - not much more but I'll take it tyvm
i liked the dodge distance was perfect for me getting use to a longer dodge is going to be annoying for me =D
I know you can get used to the HR dodge feature--but I find that I have to spam it and run out of stamina just to get out of some of the boss red zones!!! ;-) the only time i ever dodge once is when I am standing in the center circle under Lostmauth and he is dropping stalactites on us--one dodge gets you to the other side of the circle without falling in the lava. Perfect.
I 'vote' for a 100% increase in dodge length, not just 30%. Looking at some math--if we dodge 3 feet, we now dodge 4 feet, right? I will be grateful for anything, but would really ask for a bit more, please. Pretty please???
I think I should have clarified a little more about Archery. The Archery damage is much improved, Split Shot does very good damage now if you are fully spec' d for archery and 60+ feet away from your target. With Prey on a single target like a boss fight Archery is probably equal to Trapper.
If you compare just the bow damage of a Trapper and Archer on a single shot per shot basis, the Archer will be much higher. But where I think Trapper will continue to keep it's overall DPS advantage is with stance dancing and being able to lower the cool downs of both Archery and Melee. If the net affect is something like a Trapper can get in 8 Encounter powers in the same space of time as an Archer can get in 6, even though those Archery hits will be for less, the net affect will be more damage. Not to mention more attacks is more AP gain so more Dailies as well... Although the Dailies are probably going to be Archery attacks so maybe that will even the AP gain out.
It's just hard to really tell by only testing by shooting at target dummies in Dread Ring. Companions I use are an Angel with a Perfect Bonding Stone, so I don't get any triggered benefit unless she's healing. My Yeti gives me bonus when I take damage, my two Elementals when my target is full health and below half. Some Boons I have trigger when I take damage or kill monsters. The dummies are not moving around, so I will have to see how with the powers I slot what the best rotation of powers I should use and when I should run in or back out... and on and on.
A better test would be to run some dungeons, trials or skirmishes, but I don't really have the time and was too lazy to do that. I would rather play those on the real server so I can benefit from the rewards of doing them. But even then you probably don't want to be grouping with another HR or any other classes like the SW or GF that is going through this re balancing. Mainly because these might not even be the final changes to the HR (or other classes) that go into the live game. So the results you get could be completely skewed.
So anyway, that is why I wanted to make sure I said, this is mainly just my opinion and the impression I got from testing. It's not really scientific because of all the unaccountable variables, but I still find it helpful.
The only path I have played on the HR is the archer--and I don't use it for PVP, so my comments are relative to PVE and only one path. I agree with all the comments regarding the somewhat underwhelming changes. I appreciate the efforts, and I will still play my archer, grateful for any improvements, but it doesn't really look like my rotations will change based upon what was released so far.
Reducing animations really seems important--split the sky, aimed shot, rain of arrows, etc. That might make them more highly selected as a viable path. I can't think of another class that has super long animations for their encounter powers (there probably are, but I can't remember them). I can think of daily powers that have long animations--GWF has their favorite but during their animation--mobs can't target them and interrupt the power. As an HR, I tend to get clobbered during those long animations, and it becomes a decision of cutting off the encounter to escape and attack again. That further reduces my DPS since I lost half of my encounter (or all of it).
If aimed shot becomes a real sniper shot--for example, use it to take out the Red Wizard in WOD and now all you have left is the support mobs, or single shot a phase spider in eTOS, then I could see slotting it. Otherwise, rapid shot or occasionally split shot/electric etc. are still much more effective. I suspect that if we improve the DPS of Aimed to that level, PVP will become incredibly unbalanced and full of archer snipers. (again, I don't PVP, so I am just guessing).
I am not asking for a button mashing HR path.
You have had the time over the past 11 months to address this--please be creative in your approach as well as using those statistics you posted. The data was great, now please use your imagination. It's a D&D game, after all.
"Also, if arrows were better at killing things than bullets, the nations of the earth would be equipping their armies with bows. Seems kind of self-explanatory."
The switch from bows to xbows and eventually firearms wasn't due to the lethality of the weapon nearly as much as it was due to the time required to train up a person to use the weapon effectively. A person can learn to use either a xbow or a firearm accurately in a fraction of the time it takes to do the same for a bow. Additionally, more modern firearms allow for increased rates of fire, which has it good and bad points (spray and pray vs aimed fire).
Based on what the nations of the earth are equipping their armies with, the U.S., by extension a lot of other countries, have been using a weapon designed to wound rather than kill for for the past 50 years or so. Some claim for humanitarian reasons, but the more likely original reason is that if you wound an enemy rather than killing him, you take a couple of his buddies out of the fight long enough to care for him, as well as the psychological effects of dealing with your friends screaming and writhing in pain around you.
Comparing a bullet to an arrow on the basis of tissue damage caused, a good broadhead will usually cause a lot more effective tissue damage and bleeding than the bullet does. As was stated earlier, the bullet typically does the job through hydrostatic shock, not tissue damage and bleeding effects after the hit.
In any case, does anyone know if these changes have gone live yet?
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
I think it's funnt pve players are concerned about the class being balanced, it's pve it's easy but pvp atm hrs at bis gear vs any other class with equal gear don't do a thing. And or miss play once against some class and your one shot it's no fun to just stail mate for 5 minutes
OMFG I can't believe they increased our dodge range!!!!!! 30% more distance - not much more but I'll take it tyvm
i liked the dodge distance was perfect for me getting use to a longer dodge is going to be annoying for me =D
I know you can get used to the HR dodge feature--but I find that I have to spam it and run out of stamina just to get out of some of the boss red zones!!! ;-) the only time i ever dodge once is when I am standing in the center circle under Lostmauth and he is dropping stalactites on us--one dodge gets you to the other side of the circle without falling in the lava. Perfect.
I 'vote' for a 100% increase in dodge length, not just 30%. Looking at some math--if we dodge 3 feet, we now dodge 4 feet, right? I will be grateful for anything, but would really ask for a bit more, please. Pretty please???
when you dodge and you are still in red circles you dodge all the damage sure their is timing needed but still being in the red for an hr is ok cause the damage wont hurt you or at least for me it doesn't... basically when i use my dodge its like when a tank pulls up his shield and blocks the damage so his healthbar doesn't go down. now i know i can get use to the new dodge but i hope that the new dodge doesn't chance the invulnerability window or consume more stamina. cause though i love the current dodge the only thing that will make me hate the new dodge is if it changes those things i prefer many dodges over a longer dodge that consumes more stamina. i don't run stamina regen cause its pointless and i don't want tot have to put points into it cause now the dodge consumes more stamina. just like action points an hr trapper doesn't need any at all in action point gain the trapper should be getting 100% action points in 15-20 seconds depending on players rotation, i know that i can get 100% action points in a matter of 10 seconds cause one of my skills give like 50% action point gain and all the dots i do on all my roots are adding in the remainder.
so to summarize i dont really mind a longer dodge length what i dont want it the dodge to consume more stamina or remove the invulnerability window.
I think it's funnt pve players are concerned about the class being balanced, it's pve it's easy but pvp atm hrs at bis gear vs any other class with equal gear don't do a thing. And or miss play once against some class and your one shot it's no fun to just stail mate for 5 minutes
then you don't understand that pve is not always easy tell me its easy when you solo a 5 man epic dungeon easily all the mobs all the bosses and i know i said dungeon but to be fair dungeoning is basically pve... now i have soloed some epic dungeons and it has not been easy and all i play is hr. if they ruin or mess up the hr in any way too much then i wont be able to solo the same stuff i was able to pve care about this game as much as pvp players do
so its only natural that pve players would be concerned
The only reason i am concerned here in PVE is that too many people who play HRs cant seem to even try to understand the mechanics behind the class. Too many people say HRs cant compare dps to other classes, but that is all personal fault, i dont see my damage lagging too far against almost near bis toons of other classes. These current rework will of course affect me in PVE, but i have 2 issues about it, 1. If we are too weak, buff us (Then im sure current HRs who knows their toons shall now become the new Gods). 2. We are too strong, nerf us(which i think appropriate if every class is getting nerfed, or we are viewed as overpowered now, but most people in the forums and in game thinks HRs are too underperforming, PVE wise.
I want class changes to benefit the community as a whole. IT IS NOT my problem if you play an HR and dont want to be a trapper, I chose to go trapper as i see it with the most damage potential. Same way i dont go Sentinel(?) on my GWF. Most players choose this, and then when others ask advice - they share it, and now people are all ranting that there is only 1 viable path. We chose to excel in our class, and this is what gave us the best results. No one is forcing you to play like how we play, play on how you want to, but then dont keep saying HRs suck blah blah, when clearly it is a personal problem, not a class one. Personal problem as in these are the things given to you at the moment, and you have no choice but to choose from these resources. This is why Class changes are coming, so as to try and give us new options and choices(but so far have not been successful).
Issues regarding archery and combat, i have yet to see an archery on par with my damage as a trapper, but as for combat, i have met someone who can pull it off. he lost damage from being a trapper, but still is on par with my trapper's damage. He has done this on live server, given that he has retraining tokens. Now if you want to try this and play with a combat hr, then i suggest you go to the preview server, test stuff, find what encounters and feat you need to produce the best results and figure it out, not just rely on someone posting a video on how to do it(i like the videos, but then when these go out and everyone follows, the argument "i am stuck to this path blah blah blah" is back in motion again.
PvP wise - i am sorry for those who play pvp, everyone knows your hardships, and i can only give my moral support to the changes you want and nothing more, for i dont play this game only to be in very harsh and toxic community(overall pvp) so i just only do it from time to time.
If you want us to stop using Pathfinder. Make Blade Storm work correctly. Currently Plant Growth, and any daily used in melee except Forest Ghost will not proc with Blade Storm. Leave Plant Growth targeting alone we need to be able to cc that many adds. CW and SW all have capless AoE abilities. Don't put charges on Steel Breeze either that wont interact with our CD feats.
feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
I'll say this in as many different places as there seems to be a reason to. The proposed changes seem to come from an attitude that all that's wrong with HR is that it's slightly behind other strikers in pve and that we don't use certain abilities that we don't like for very good reasons. This is not the issue. The issue is that the base class is pathetically weak and only the trapper build (and, apparently, one and only one combat HR) have found a way to make it work. To fix the problem in both pve and pvp - where we're at the absolute bottom of the pile - we need large buffs to the base class. Then the paragon paths/feat trees can be readjusted. None of the proposed changes will help us in pvp. They won't balance the different paragon paths. The class needs a ground-up rebuild.
I'll say this in as many different places as there seems to be a reason to. The proposed changes seem to come from an attitude that all that's wrong with HR is that it's slightly behind other strikers in pve and that we don't use certain abilities that we don't like for very good reasons. This is not the issue. The issue is that the base class is pathetically weak and only the trapper build (and, apparently, one and only one combat HR) have found a way to make it work. To fix the problem in both pve and pvp - where we're at the absolute bottom of the pile - we need large buffs to the base class. Then the paragon paths/feat trees can be readjusted. None of the proposed changes will help us in pvp. They won't balance the different paragon paths. The class needs a ground-up rebuild.
hmm though i cant sat i agree with you, i don't have to say not a bad idea.true trapper seems to be the most used build and everyone uses the same build cause they want to do tons of damage well unlike me, it would be interesting to see a full ground up rebuild of the build their trying to fix... hopefully they don't ruin trapper builds as they try to fix the other builds.
I forgot to mention the issue below in my last post on page 2.
The dev blog on HRs said your metrics show that your high iLevel players are only using a very small number of encounter powers. It seems like you may have interpreted this as meaning those powers are better than all the others, and have gone on to make some adjustments to them including adding charges (steel breeze) or reducing their damage (hindering strike/shot).
The issue for trappers is that very few powers apply grasping roots (needed to activate the capstone), which results in people playing that type of HR to be reliant on using a small number of encounter powers. The proc chance from trapper's cunning is not high enough to ensure that we can keep master trapper active using other powers even if we wanted to do that.
What seems really odd to me is that rather than increasing the number of encounter powers which apply grasping roots, you're actually reducing it by taking it off binding arrow. If we had more powers which could activate the capstone, we would have more choice of powers, but your change will actually have the effect of further reducing build diversity.
So this seems like another example of your stated goals not being achieved by your proposed changes. If you want us using more encounter powers than just a handful, then give trappers more choice of encounter powers by adding grasping roots to them, not fewer choices. And like I said in my last post, if you think HR is generally behind other DPS classes, then don't reduce the damage output of its encounter powers; do something to make the ones which are underutilised more attractive instead.
You seem to be doing the exact opposite of what you need to do, and I can't understand why that is. Also, fix buggy class features and careful attack so that it is usable in large group fights.
I forgot to mention the issue below in my last post on page 2.
The dev blog on HRs said your metrics show that your high iLevel players are only using a very small number of encounter powers. It seems like you may have interpreted this as meaning those powers are better than all the others, and have gone on to make some adjustments to them including adding charges (steel breeze) or reducing their damage (hindering strike/shot).
The issue for trappers is that very few powers apply grasping roots (needed to activate the capstone), which results in people playing that type of HR to be reliant on using a small number of encounter powers. The proc chance from trapper's cunning is not high enough to ensure that we can keep master trapper active using other powers even if we wanted to do that.
What seems really odd to me is that rather than increasing the number of encounter powers which apply grasping roots, you're actually reducing it by taking it off binding arrow. If we had more powers which could activate the capstone, we would have more choice of powers, but your change will actually have the effect of further reducing build diversity.
So this seems like another example of your stated goals not being achieved by your proposed changes. If you want us using more encounter powers than just a handful, then give trappers more choice of encounter powers by adding grasping roots to them, not fewer choices. And like I said in my last post, if you think HR is generally behind other DPS classes, then don't reduce the damage output of its encounter powers; do something to make the ones which are underutilised more attractive instead.
You seem to be doing the exact opposite of what you need to do, and I can't understand why that is. Also, fix buggy class features and careful attack so that it is usable in large group fights.
Thanks.
i do agree with the fact that so few encounters apply weak or strong grasping roots and that we do need at couple more
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
I forgot to mention the issue below in my last post on page 2.
The dev blog on HRs said your metrics show that your high iLevel players are only using a very small number of encounter powers. It seems like you may have interpreted this as meaning those powers are better than all the others, and have gone on to make some adjustments to them including adding charges (steel breeze) or reducing their damage (hindering strike/shot).
The issue for trappers is that very few powers apply grasping roots (needed to activate the capstone), which results in people playing that type of HR to be reliant on using a small number of encounter powers. The proc chance from trapper's cunning is not high enough to ensure that we can keep master trapper active using other powers even if we wanted to do that.
What seems really odd to me is that rather than increasing the number of encounter powers which apply grasping roots, you're actually reducing it by taking it off binding arrow. If we had more powers which could activate the capstone, we would have more choice of powers, but your change will actually have the effect of further reducing build diversity.
So this seems like another example of your stated goals not being achieved by your proposed changes. If you want us using more encounter powers than just a handful, then give trappers more choice of encounter powers by adding grasping roots to them, not fewer choices. And like I said in my last post, if you think HR is generally behind other DPS classes, then don't reduce the damage output of its encounter powers; do something to make the ones which are underutilised more attractive instead.
You seem to be doing the exact opposite of what you need to do, and I can't understand why that is. Also, fix buggy class features and careful attack so that it is usable in large group fights.
Thanks.
This right here. Isn't it strange, that for a class that has Grasping Roots as one of their main attributes, HRs only have Hindering, Constricting and Binding (currently) that apply the mechanic? Plant Growth roots yes, but for some bizarre reason the devs decided to make the encounter ignore the Grasping Roots mechanic completely. Give us more options and we won't just choose the only three that are available.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
Three things I would rather prefer done to Marauder's Escape:
That it provides a break from all CC, allowing the HR to "escape" as the encounter says.
That the HR is immune to targeting when he leaps back out of the fray.
That the HR is able to use Marauder's Escape when airborne.
Love the idea. It would also be great if ghost forest also broke control effects, with these 2 tools, deflect and a elven we could actually make competiotion, GF's control avoidance would still be far better and gwf, tr but it's a step to pvp sucsess.
when you dodge and you are still in red circles you dodge all the damage sure their is timing needed but still being in the red for an hr is ok cause the damage wont hurt you or at least for me it doesn't... basically when i use my dodge its like when a tank pulls up his shield and blocks the damage so his healthbar doesn't go down.
so to summarize i dont really mind a longer dodge length what i dont want it the dodge to consume more stamina or remove the invulnerability window.
This is why I don't consider myself anything more than an average player--I always thought if I was 'in the red, i was dead'. I never considered that I could time my dodge and be immune during that animation (although I have to admit the number of times I play that has considerable lag, I might still end up dead trying to time the 'Red Effect'.
Thanks for the tip. The next time I am not lagging, I will try this technique.
If the Dev's do actually read these things,...... I applaud your effort,... if not the end results,..
I do like and appreciate all the effort that goes into your data mining,... but your basic logic is slightly flawed,... no matter what you do,.. (unless you have true, complete balance - which in MMO's seems to be a myth),.. there will always be 1 build that out performs the others for a specific goal. In this case, DPS.
Since Mod 6, you've made the game heavily DPS dependent, so that's the build everyone is going to copy.
I should say,.. I am a HR,.. it's what I play,.. my first toon,.. and through all the buffs & nerfs,... it's the class I still play, and probably always will. So, if it underperforms,.. I play this game less,.. and spend my time on other games,...
I agree the the HR now lags behind a number of other classes in terms of DPS,... so,.. Just up the DPS?.... Wouldn't take much for the Trapper to fall in line with the other top DPS classes... and it would help the other trees as well. I like the decreased cooldowns,... and yes they can increase the DPS,.. via the spam rate on encounter powers, but as modded,. these do seem (as several of the other posters have tested / proven) to actually decrease overall damage per time. Which isn't your stated goal....
You want to help trapper,.. fix the bugs with grasping roots,.. and give Trapper a tree feat that adds Strong (epic level) grasping roots to Cordon of Arrows & Plant Growth?.. then the major (only) high DPS dealing power would also be capable to triggering the capstone feat. As it currently sits,.. we can choose 2 powers that can trip the capstone,.. and have improved DPS via Cordon/Plant Growth, OR we can chose 3 encounters that (at least in one stance or the other) have a chance to trigger the capstone?... either way,.. it limits the overall DPS capability of the class,.. which you admit is under performing.
If you want to affect the performance against bosses & 'Immune' targets,.. make them immune to only the 'stun' or 'disable' portion of the grasping roots? So,.. a boss can still move instead of being frozen,.. BUT I can still do my full DPS over time vs. that boss instead of some instant modifier that sounds good (250% of weapon damage), but in reality only provides a small portion of the 'normal' DPS to the target. So, that boss is too tough for the roots to hold in place,.. but he still takes full damage from the roots trying to to keep him in place while he moves through them.
The extra distance on the shift,... thank you! badly,.. badly needed,..... Now,. about that 'doesn't always work' thing?.... o.O
Thank you for looking into the class balance issues,... but it doesn't seem like your changes are really going to achieve your stated goals,.. These changes don't seem to increase the overall damage that HR's can do,... bringing them in line with other 'DPS classes', but seem to give additional mechanics or options for the class to get to the same DPS levels it can already achieve via the thorned roots build. I believe your stated target was to increase the overall DPS capability of the class,... not get additional options for continuing to under-perform in DPS?
in relation to the other trees,... I didn't read anything that would make either of them more viable.
Melee ranger?... Why not give the melee ranger extra deflection based on an ability score, like the TR?... or like the TR a 75% deflection severity?.. We can never compete with the TR (and shouldn't) as a 'sneak attack', one shot Melee fighter,..BUT a ranger IS a fighter,.. and the TR is not. We should be able to be more survivable in continued close-quarters combat than a TR, without the one-shot spikes,.. but with more consistent high DPS to balance it out,....
Ranged,.. needs even more help yet,...
Again,.. I applaud and appreciate your efforts,.. I just don't believe your data is telling you exactly what you believe it is,.. and don't believe these changes will actually help to achieve your goals,... though,. I do look forward to trying them,.. and hopefully,.. be proven wrong. =}
0
lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
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The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
to shoot for example grizzly bear u need about 90J+ PBE with bow and arrrow BUT to hunt the same bear with rifle u need at least 3000J at muzzle
and im not imperialist so i have a bit trouble understanding archaic mesure system like feets pounds and that kind of stuff why cant u be civilised and use metric system like the rest of normal civilised world?
but i will correct u on only 1 issue.
While that 30-06 have 4KJ on muzzle with 145grain tip when that tip hits the target it leaves at the target only a fraction of that energy..arrow leaves all of its energy. Bullets kills with hydrodynamic shock not with KE..so if u hit the target with a bullet and that shock doesnt happend ( and it doesnt happen that often ) bullet simply pass throgh 4eg Elk body that elk too often carry that wound for miles..if u didnt hit it somwhere where that elk would bleed out.4eg stomak wounds elks are known even to survive..and im speaking of hits from a lot stronger rifles than mare 30-06 like magnum calibers 300WM and above.
its offtopic anyway
HR is added later in the game and as is it will ALWAYS have balance issue
basic problem with balance is impossibility to make it artifically..if u wanna make things balanced u only end up with less balance then u had before u started balancing..balance is always attained by it self..problem is in perception and intet..folks always find nonintended ways to play and exploit right?
fact is..HR as a class is bad at range combat and is even worse at melee. in order to be what is intended to be it have to be good at both. if its not good at both stance dance has no point. even that 1 fairly effective HR trapper build is LESS effective than respective builds of other classes. not to mention that its NOT the way most folks WANT to play HR character
HR and PvP issues man..
every class should have strong sides and weaknesses and as it should be u play on ure strong sides u cover ur weaknesses..but HR simply have too many of weaknesses..almost all of those can simply be solved by adding base damage. with 50% more base damage HR would be competable with any other regardles of trapper no trapper or any other good possible builds..even halving CDs of skill will solve most of the issues but in that regard people who play HR and play it really good would be at advantage right?
Contact:@EmeraldG1173
Main: EMERALD LEGEND
Also, if arrows were better at killing things than bullets, the nations of the earth would be equipping their armies with bows. Seems kind of self-explanatory.
This is pure theory craft, but I think maybe on a single target like a boss mob and with the capstone ability of Predator and being able to apply Prey to a target and do 40% more damage, Archery might be pretty close to Trapper. But at the end of a Dungeon run, when you add up all the damage done to the minions and number of kills, I think the Trapper is still going to be far ahead in DPS.
I know, this is about the most unscientific review ever; I didn't try to sight any numbers and I am just stating my overall impression. This mainly because someone who is much more technically talented can do a better job or someone might come up with some unexpected synergistic combination of powers that have a stacking affect that could greatly increase the Archery damage I was seeing and completely change my opinion. Plus I know this is sort of the first pass on the HR changes and even more changes are likely coming before the final implemented changes go into effect.
So for now I will just say in my opinion and it's only an opinion; that Archery still looks a little weak to me. I will continue to watch the forums and look at the new builds that will be posted and give them a try as they come out. And I will be hopefully optimistic that more good changes will continue to come for the HR.
I really wish more changings to bring Archery more close to trapper, and Buffs not nerfs...
I will stay playing as Hybrid Archer+Blades but is for fun, i feel useless in dungeons on this toon...
I 'vote' for a 100% increase in dodge length, not just 30%. Looking at some math--if we dodge 3 feet, we now dodge 4 feet, right? I will be grateful for anything, but would really ask for a bit more, please. Pretty please???
If you compare just the bow damage of a Trapper and Archer on a single shot per shot basis, the Archer will be much higher. But where I think Trapper will continue to keep it's overall DPS advantage is with stance dancing and being able to lower the cool downs of both Archery and Melee. If the net affect is something like a Trapper can get in 8 Encounter powers in the same space of time as an Archer can get in 6, even though those Archery hits will be for less, the net affect will be more damage. Not to mention more attacks is more AP gain so more Dailies as well... Although the Dailies are probably going to be Archery attacks so maybe that will even the AP gain out.
It's just hard to really tell by only testing by shooting at target dummies in Dread Ring. Companions I use are an Angel with a Perfect Bonding Stone, so I don't get any triggered benefit unless she's healing. My Yeti gives me bonus when I take damage, my two Elementals when my target is full health and below half. Some Boons I have trigger when I take damage or kill monsters. The dummies are not moving around, so I will have to see how with the powers I slot what the best rotation of powers I should use and when I should run in or back out... and on and on.
A better test would be to run some dungeons, trials or skirmishes, but I don't really have the time and was too lazy to do that. I would rather play those on the real server so I can benefit from the rewards of doing them. But even then you probably don't want to be grouping with another HR or any other classes like the SW or GF that is going through this re balancing. Mainly because these might not even be the final changes to the HR (or other classes) that go into the live game. So the results you get could be completely skewed.
So anyway, that is why I wanted to make sure I said, this is mainly just my opinion and the impression I got from testing. It's not really scientific because of all the unaccountable variables, but I still find it helpful.
Reducing animations really seems important--split the sky, aimed shot, rain of arrows, etc. That might make them more highly selected as a viable path. I can't think of another class that has super long animations for their encounter powers (there probably are, but I can't remember them). I can think of daily powers that have long animations--GWF has their favorite but during their animation--mobs can't target them and interrupt the power. As an HR, I tend to get clobbered during those long animations, and it becomes a decision of cutting off the encounter to escape and attack again. That further reduces my DPS since I lost half of my encounter (or all of it).
If aimed shot becomes a real sniper shot--for example, use it to take out the Red Wizard in WOD and now all you have left is the support mobs, or single shot a phase spider in eTOS, then I could see slotting it. Otherwise, rapid shot or occasionally split shot/electric etc. are still much more effective. I suspect that if we improve the DPS of Aimed to that level, PVP will become incredibly unbalanced and full of archer snipers. (again, I don't PVP, so I am just guessing).
I am not asking for a button mashing HR path.
You have had the time over the past 11 months to address this--please be creative in your approach as well as using those statistics you posted. The data was great, now please use your imagination. It's a D&D game, after all.
The switch from bows to xbows and eventually firearms wasn't due to the lethality of the weapon nearly as much as it was due to the time required to train up a person to use the weapon effectively. A person can learn to use either a xbow or a firearm accurately in a fraction of the time it takes to do the same for a bow. Additionally, more modern firearms allow for increased rates of fire, which has it good and bad points (spray and pray vs aimed fire).
Based on what the nations of the earth are equipping their armies with, the U.S., by extension a lot of other countries, have been using a weapon designed to wound rather than kill for for the past 50 years or so. Some claim for humanitarian reasons, but the more likely original reason is that if you wound an enemy rather than killing him, you take a couple of his buddies out of the fight long enough to care for him, as well as the psychological effects of dealing with your friends screaming and writhing in pain around you.
Comparing a bullet to an arrow on the basis of tissue damage caused, a good broadhead will usually cause a lot more effective tissue damage and bleeding than the bullet does. As was stated earlier, the bullet typically does the job through hydrostatic shock, not tissue damage and bleeding effects after the hit.
In any case, does anyone know if these changes have gone live yet?
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
so to summarize i dont really mind a longer dodge length what i dont want it the dodge to consume more stamina or remove the invulnerability window.
so its only natural that pve players would be concerned
I want class changes to benefit the community as a whole. IT IS NOT my problem if you play an HR and dont want to be a trapper, I chose to go trapper as i see it with the most damage potential. Same way i dont go Sentinel(?) on my GWF. Most players choose this, and then when others ask advice - they share it, and now people are all ranting that there is only 1 viable path. We chose to excel in our class, and this is what gave us the best results. No one is forcing you to play like how we play, play on how you want to, but then dont keep saying HRs suck blah blah, when clearly it is a personal problem, not a class one. Personal problem as in these are the things given to you at the moment, and you have no choice but to choose from these resources. This is why Class changes are coming, so as to try and give us new options and choices(but so far have not been successful).
Issues regarding archery and combat, i have yet to see an archery on par with my damage as a trapper, but as for combat, i have met someone who can pull it off. he lost damage from being a trapper, but still is on par with my trapper's damage. He has done this on live server, given that he has retraining tokens. Now if you want to try this and play with a combat hr, then i suggest you go to the preview server, test stuff, find what encounters and feat you need to produce the best results and figure it out, not just rely on someone posting a video on how to do it(i like the videos, but then when these go out and everyone follows, the argument "i am stuck to this path blah blah blah" is back in motion again.
PvP wise - i am sorry for those who play pvp, everyone knows your hardships, and i can only give my moral support to the changes you want and nothing more, for i dont play this game only to be in very harsh and toxic community(overall pvp) so i just only do it from time to time.
Contact:@EmeraldG1173
Main: EMERALD LEGEND
The dev blog on HRs said your metrics show that your high iLevel players are only using a very small number of encounter powers. It seems like you may have interpreted this as meaning those powers are better than all the others, and have gone on to make some adjustments to them including adding charges (steel breeze) or reducing their damage (hindering strike/shot).
The issue for trappers is that very few powers apply grasping roots (needed to activate the capstone), which results in people playing that type of HR to be reliant on using a small number of encounter powers. The proc chance from trapper's cunning is not high enough to ensure that we can keep master trapper active using other powers even if we wanted to do that.
What seems really odd to me is that rather than increasing the number of encounter powers which apply grasping roots, you're actually reducing it by taking it off binding arrow. If we had more powers which could activate the capstone, we would have more choice of powers, but your change will actually have the effect of further reducing build diversity.
So this seems like another example of your stated goals not being achieved by your proposed changes. If you want us using more encounter powers than just a handful, then give trappers more choice of encounter powers by adding grasping roots to them, not fewer choices. And like I said in my last post, if you think HR is generally behind other DPS classes, then don't reduce the damage output of its encounter powers; do something to make the ones which are underutilised more attractive instead.
You seem to be doing the exact opposite of what you need to do, and I can't understand why that is. Also, fix buggy class features and careful attack so that it is usable in large group fights.
Thanks.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Thanks for the tip. The next time I am not lagging, I will try this technique.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/comment/12851405
is a link to my build i am looking for criticism and opinions and review as to how to improve it.
I do like and appreciate all the effort that goes into your data mining,... but your basic logic is slightly flawed,... no matter what you do,.. (unless you have true, complete balance - which in MMO's seems to be a myth),.. there will always be 1 build that out performs the others for a specific goal. In this case, DPS.
Since Mod 6, you've made the game heavily DPS dependent, so that's the build everyone is going to copy.
I should say,.. I am a HR,.. it's what I play,.. my first toon,.. and through all the buffs & nerfs,... it's the class I still play, and probably always will. So, if it underperforms,.. I play this game less,.. and spend my time on other games,...
I agree the the HR now lags behind a number of other classes in terms of DPS,... so,.. Just up the DPS?.... Wouldn't take much for the Trapper to fall in line with the other top DPS classes... and it would help the other trees as well. I like the decreased cooldowns,... and yes they can increase the DPS,.. via the spam rate on encounter powers, but as modded,. these do seem (as several of the other posters have tested / proven) to actually decrease overall damage per time. Which isn't your stated goal....
You want to help trapper,.. fix the bugs with grasping roots,.. and give Trapper a tree feat that adds Strong (epic level) grasping roots to Cordon of Arrows & Plant Growth?.. then the major (only) high DPS dealing power would also be capable to triggering the capstone feat. As it currently sits,.. we can choose 2 powers that can trip the capstone,.. and have improved DPS via Cordon/Plant Growth, OR we can chose 3 encounters that (at least in one stance or the other) have a chance to trigger the capstone?... either way,.. it limits the overall DPS capability of the class,.. which you admit is under performing.
If you want to affect the performance against bosses & 'Immune' targets,.. make them immune to only the 'stun' or 'disable' portion of the grasping roots? So,.. a boss can still move instead of being frozen,.. BUT I can still do my full DPS over time vs. that boss instead of some instant modifier that sounds good (250% of weapon damage), but in reality only provides a small portion of the 'normal' DPS to the target. So, that boss is too tough for the roots to hold in place,.. but he still takes full damage from the roots trying to to keep him in place while he moves through them.
The extra distance on the shift,... thank you! badly,.. badly needed,..... Now,. about that 'doesn't always work' thing?.... o.O
Thank you for looking into the class balance issues,... but it doesn't seem like your changes are really going to achieve your stated goals,.. These changes don't seem to increase the overall damage that HR's can do,... bringing them in line with other 'DPS classes', but seem to give additional mechanics or options for the class to get to the same DPS levels it can already achieve via the thorned roots build. I believe your stated target was to increase the overall DPS capability of the class,... not get additional options for continuing to under-perform in DPS?
in relation to the other trees,... I didn't read anything that would make either of them more viable.
Melee ranger?... Why not give the melee ranger extra deflection based on an ability score, like the TR?... or like the TR a 75% deflection severity?.. We can never compete with the TR (and shouldn't) as a 'sneak attack', one shot Melee fighter,..BUT a ranger IS a fighter,.. and the TR is not. We should be able to be more survivable in continued close-quarters combat than a TR, without the one-shot spikes,.. but with more consistent high DPS to balance it out,....
Ranged,.. needs even more help yet,...
Again,.. I applaud and appreciate your efforts,.. I just don't believe your data is telling you exactly what you believe it is,.. and don't believe these changes will actually help to achieve your goals,... though,. I do look forward to trying them,.. and hopefully,.. be proven wrong. =}
You have better chance of devs seeing your comments and possibly responding if you post here:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1218454/official-feedback-thread-hunter-ranger-changes/p1
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.