So: 1. Basically all is gear dependant and you are complaining something that only a very small group of can reproduce. 1.a. I mean "you can have all buffs and related increase of pow,rec,cri,ls,arpen,dr which make you feel you comfortable".
2. Just 1 bonding should work, the highest one. 2.a. The way the bondings worked before Cryptic make them the carrot hanging from the stick. 2.b. YES Bonding should gave the pet a buff that won't return.
3. I misunderstood your "can do pretty good in CN" so basically i can do pretty good in CN too, in 1h20m with every group or 40min even with all 2,5 and one orange blink dog w 10/11/12 bonding neckneckring of another person. Moreover companions won't make iL (something similar your old GS).
4. I wrote that in the wrong line, NO BUFF TO companions will affect in negative way EVERYONE, for exemple but not limited there are puppets from SW and buffs from GF.
5. What buffing and what stacking are decisions made by some. BTW my opinion is that a Siege Machine is buffable as long it is a NPC (standalone or companion), about stacking i wish that each different source, or subsequent cast, applies a buff and so stacking with the same unexpired alredy apllied.
You would think that after almost 3 years the game has been out they would have the combat system nailed down and not be breaking the game so often.
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
/puts on the mod hat
Look guys, this is a serious issue going on behind the scenes here. Stacking power into the hundreds of thousands and millions, then hitting for 10's of millions of points of damage is obviously NOT the intent here. I appreciate the threads on this subject, and trust me, I want this to get fixed as much as anyone else. To those who have more information to contribute to this thread, please do.
Fixing something is NOT the same as nerfing it. If there are broken mechanics or powers causing unintended consquences, it needs to be addressed. And to do that, we need to get as much information on the root cause of the problem. Willy nilly nerfing won't fix anything.
So please keep that in mind before posting. This is a serious issue, and I'll be pruning any off-topic posts from this thread.
For those trying to keep the discussion on topic, please do not engage with those going off topic. Use the report function as needed.
null I'm pretty sure you just described what is not happening here. But I do agree, no nerfs, add content that fits more with 3.5+ IL to keep it interesting.
I buff my power solo from 17 k power to about constant 60 k and 102 k spikepower
That's ....a 350 to 600% powerbuff. Too much? Yes!
Correct. And I agree with you. But here you're talking about yourself only. In terms of interaction, it's important what you transfert to party which is much less as absolute value, but very high if this power enter into another interaction between a toon and its companion with bonding runestones. Here WoL plays an important role.
The moment my companion loses buffs i stay at 36 k power wich is ok getting 15 k power from maxed bondings+high radiants in my companion and 4k from BF and WoL. Normally i play with an augment an do pretty good in CN without bondings, no need for that.
In your opinion ~20k is a reasonable number and here you're a bit higher than an augment. As a consequence, bonding runestones should not exist because the RoI is irrelevant. I'm not saying this is wrong. I'm only trying to understand what is reasonable and what is not and the consequence of it. I played with an augment for years and I'm still alive.
What you call a nerf is normality for about 95% of all DC ingame that use low companions or augments.
It will only hit some player with a maxed companion , since a small minority wears 3x rank 12 bondings.
The buff transfer is broken and surly not WAI and get's bigger the better your bondings are causing silly numbers and instant death to some dragon.
According to the devs, the boinding mechanic is ok: so it's WAI. Before the introduction of the bonding runestones mechanic and before groups >5 were possible, the overall behavior of the power buff (AA+BF+WoL), companion included, has been always considered WAI. So if you touch them, then it's a nerf. Imo all we have is "WAI" (I will come back to this in a second), it worked as it is today for years. New stuff has been introduced without studying the consequences:I call it bad design, because it breakes what was considered WAI till yesterday. Work As Intended means that a design cycle is in place where all the consequences are considered: here it's clear that this was not done. So talking about WAI or not-WAI is meaningless. Even more the 25 DCs experience already showed the consequences, but that was not taken into account when the bonding runestones were "fixed". This is scary...
Now, how to fix: - Downgrading again the feats of the cleric: this is a nerf and it would be the 100th to cover the 100th design failure. That's not right. Period. - Reviewing the interaction between the toon (not only the cleric) and the companion -> this is a design fix, but it has some consequences that hit not only the clerics, but also other classes. - Reviewing the bonding mechanic. - Finally, my preferred one: release new contents designed to challenge such mechanic.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Look guys, this is a serious issue going on behind the scenes here. Stacking power into the hundreds of thousands and millions, then hitting for 10's of millions of points of damage is obviously NOT the intent here. I appreciate the threads on this subject, and trust me, I want this to get fixed as much as anyone else. To those who have more information to contribute to this thread, please do.
Fixing something is NOT the same as nerfing it. If there are broken mechanics or powers causing unintended consquences, it needs to be addressed. And to do that, we need to get as much information on the root cause of the problem. Willy nilly nerfing won't fix anything.
So please keep that in mind before posting. This is a serious issue, and I'll be pruning any off-topic posts from this thread.
For those trying to keep the discussion on topic, please do not engage with those going off topic. Use the report function as needed.
Thanks.
Here how it works in a very simple case (the base mechanic taking into account the Dc feats and the bonding runestones only): a DC and a GWF, both with rk 12 bonding runestones and both with 3 offensive slots on the companions. The DC in this simulation is my cleric. My total power is exactly that (as you know, numbers float, so sometimes I'm 124k, sometimes 123K...).
In case of 2 or more AC/DCs, it becomes an exponential interaction because there's a positive loop coming back from the clerics. It's like adding 20k^y [i don't have this precise number] to the toon and to the companion, plus the WoL effect, everthing times the runestones buff. I hope someone else can do the calc...I'm too lazy and not paid for it (but I can tell you that 3 AC/DCs with WoL can buff up to 1 milion power). If you add to this other power sources (OP, SW, potions, mounts powers,...), then it becomes higher and higher + ITF and whatever you want...
Again: how do the devs want to fix this? See my previous post...
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Look guys, this is a serious issue going on behind the scenes here. Stacking power into the hundreds of thousands and millions, then hitting for 10's of millions of points of damage is obviously NOT the intent here. I appreciate the threads on this subject, and trust me, I want this to get fixed as much as anyone else. To those who have more information to contribute to this thread, please do.
Fixing something is NOT the same as nerfing it. If there are broken mechanics or powers causing unintended consquences, it needs to be addressed. And to do that, we need to get as much information on the root cause of the problem. Willy nilly nerfing won't fix anything.
So please keep that in mind before posting. This is a serious issue, and I'll be pruning any off-topic posts from this thread.
For those trying to keep the discussion on topic, please do not engage with those going off topic. Use the report function as needed.
Thanks.
Here how it works in a very simple case (the base mechanic): a DC and GWF, both with rk 12 bonding runestones. The DC in this simulation is my cleric. My total power is exactly that (as you know, numbers float, so sometimes I'm 124k, sometimes 123K...). In case of 2 or more AC/DCs, it becomes an exponential interaction because there's a positive feedback coming back from the clerics. It's like adding 20k^y [i don't have this precise number] to the toon and to the companion, plus the WoL effect, everthing times the runestones buff. The devs should know...scary.
From where is the 28k? It should only be 19k+ (BF, AA, WoL). What you show is exactly the problem; and it is not the dc, it is the interaction with companions and how bondings rebuff those interactions. Me, as an user of augment, i only give to allies 19k power (i have the same 24k base power). I consider 19k as power buff is fine coming from a buffer class.
Look guys, this is a serious issue going on behind the scenes here. Stacking power into the hundreds of thousands and millions, then hitting for 10's of millions of points of damage is obviously NOT the intent here. I appreciate the threads on this subject, and trust me, I want this to get fixed as much as anyone else. To those who have more information to contribute to this thread, please do.
Fixing something is NOT the same as nerfing it. If there are broken mechanics or powers causing unintended consquences, it needs to be addressed. And to do that, we need to get as much information on the root cause of the problem. Willy nilly nerfing won't fix anything.
So please keep that in mind before posting. This is a serious issue, and I'll be pruning any off-topic posts from this thread.
For those trying to keep the discussion on topic, please do not engage with those going off topic. Use the report function as needed.
Thanks.
Here how it works in a very simple case (the base mechanic): a DC and GWF, both with rk 12 bonding runestones. The DC in this simulation is my cleric. My total power is exactly that (as you know, numbers float, so sometimes I'm 124k, sometimes 123K...). In case of 2 or more AC/DCs, it becomes an exponential interaction because there's a positive feedback coming back from the clerics. It's like adding 20k^y [i don't have this precise number] to the toon and to the companion, plus the WoL effect, everthing times the runestones buff. The devs should know...scary.
From where is the 28k? It should only be 19k+ (BF, AA, WoL). What you show is exactly the problem; and it is not the dc, it is the interaction with companions and how bondings rebuff those interactions. Me, as an user of augment, i only give to allies 19k power (i have the same 24k base power). I consider 19k as power buff is fine coming from a buffer class.
It's 3.600+12.000+124.000*0.1 (WoL). WoL works with the instant power (credits to the DC @lerapiso818 ) I see this from a different point of view: the DC's interaction with companion and the other classes has always been there from the beginning of NW. The runestones make it overpower = bad design. Incredibly, this has been discussed in the Temple forum for months...it's well known. And even if you fix this, there are other mechanics for massive damages. If you consider 19k a reasonable buff, then the bonding runestones should be deleted. Another way to solve it: cooldown of the bonding runestones.
PS: @ironzerg79 I'm not here to criticize, but the post in the Temple forum where this issue was reported had been removed by the mods "for investigation by the devs" one month ago. In that thread many clerics reported how it works, at least in principle. It's a bit off topic, but this has to do with the quality of the interaction between the devs and the players and how the feedbacks from the players are considered (see the recent issues with the alliance...) As a DC, I was aware of the consequence of the new mechanic when this was described by the devs, but the devs stated that this WAI (for the moment). To be honest: I'm not open to share what I know, not because I want to take advantage of it, but because I don't see any reason to do it given that players are not listened at the right time. I hope to have my post published back in the Temple forum as promised by the mods: the investigation is now over.
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Our QA team is investigating this. Thanks for all the reports, everyone. It really helps us out a lot.
Call me Andy (or Strum, or Spider-Man)! Follow Neverwinter on Twitter: NeverwinterGame Like Neverwinter on Facebook: Neverwinter Follow me on Twitter: StrumSlinger
A buff wich is already applied to you from Annoited Army+WoL+BF by yourself or by a DC in your group, gets reapplied by your buffed companion for an ammount of +285%, in case companion is legendary 300%. I know this lasts for long, enough threads about that in the past, but I also know this is by sure not WAI , lol. How do you know it´s WAI???
Did cryptic wrote you a letter telling:
"Hi rapo, we implemented this autobuffslope for clerics and their party to melt content in no time and we gave you high bondings on top , now 95% each, to get that buff for a total ammount of 400% in the sum. We hope you enjoy this service. Btw. this only will work in case you run one special build, special tree few feats and powers and a special paragon (AC), all other classes and builds and paragons will succ compared to that one , just keep it secret. In general we appreciate our buffs to lead to unpredictable interactions and crazy synergies affecting you, your companion and the chair next to you. Greetings your PW team. "
No, I am fed up about a logic, pretending it is WAI because noone told it´s not. I am 110% sure cryptic/devs have no clue about the effect and buffinteractions they produce, I am pretty sure they even don´t know what is getting buffed and what not, because they do not test stuff, they just patch and go.
NWO is filled up with bugs, silly interacting buffs and gamebreaking nonsense , like this one. All threads I read so far about powerbuffs did not get into detail, no thread told the truth about 3 powerbuffs bouncing back from companion towards you in detail, and @rapo you obviously did not know about it the day before, stating that the only problem is WoL in a 25 DC run. WoL is bugged , and companions should not get buffed the way they are atm. Alternativ is fix bondings, wich will not fix puppet, shadow deamon etc. acting like Chuck Norris...we witnessed this silly buffmix for such a long time now, i vote for an end of companionbuffs.
No, I am fed up about a logic, pretending it is WAI because noone told it´s not. NWO is filled up with bugs, silly interacting buffs and gamebreaking nonsense , like this one.
Your ridiculous letter shows two things: - You don't know what you're talking about. There are at least two AC builds, and not one, providing the same effect. - it's not unpredictable: it was widely discussed one month ago in the temple forum. I just created a simulation based on info already available: it's not rocket science, it's not a secret and everyone can write some stupid formulas.The behavior was explained very well by @lerapiso818 and visible in the 25 DCs Tiamt run - Unfortunately the post was removed "for investigation". The new bonding mechanic makes it only faster.
If it's not unpredictable, if the info is available and if someone is investigating, then when the bonding runestones mechanic is implemented in this way (which is not new, only reinforced and confirmed by the devs), I assume that someone is aware of what is doing (i.e WAI).
And, btw, I can only talk about the DC: I don't know if other classes have some broken interactions.
[EDIT] Again WoL+BF+AA+companion were been considered WAI before the introduction of the bonding runstones and even after it. I started the 5 DCs run post in this forum in December 2015. At that time, I was around with 75k power as an average and normal bonding runestones. 5 DCs with some bonding runestones run dungeouns with 200k (reported) power. @illhora reporting 1,5 milions damage, and no one said nothing till the Tiamat run...and some months later...scandal. The new mechanic with no cooldown of the bonding runestone makes it only more evident and strong, but nothing really new.
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
No, I am fed up about a logic, pretending it is WAI because noone told it´s not. NWO is filled up with bugs, silly interacting buffs and gamebreaking nonsense , like this one.
Your ridiculous letter shows two things: - You don't know what you're talking about. There are at least two AC builds, and not one, providing the same effect. - it's not unpredictable: it was widely discussed one month ago in the temple forum. I just created a simulation based on info already available: it's not rocket science, it's not a secret and everyone can write some stupid formulas.The behavior was explained very well by @lerapiso818 and visible in the 25 DCs Tiamt run - Unfortunately the post was removed "for investigation". The new bonding mechanic makes it only faster.
If it's not unpredictable, if the info is available and if someone is investigating, then when you implement the bonding runestones with such mechanic (confirmed by the devs), I assume that someone is aware of what is doing (i.e WAI).
Last patch we got alliances. Did it work as intended? A broken buffmechanic causing gamebreaking interactions is WAI...hmmmm The threads you mention did not tell all details about rebuffs etc. , the key issue was WoL as I remember. I read those stuff , some considered it to be a bugged effect , wich will not effect the most part of the game, since 25 DC runs a rare and Cryptic forgot about it.
No, I am fed up about a logic, pretending it is WAI because noone told it´s not. NWO is filled up with bugs, silly interacting buffs and gamebreaking nonsense , like this one.
Your ridiculous letter shows two things: - You don't know what you're talking about. There are at least two AC builds, and not one, providing the same effect. - it's not unpredictable: it was widely discussed one month ago in the temple forum. I just created a simulation based on info already available: it's not rocket science, it's not a secret and everyone can write some stupid formulas.The behavior was explained very well by @lerapiso818 and visible in the 25 DCs Tiamt run - Unfortunately the post was removed "for investigation". The new bonding mechanic makes it only faster.
If it's not unpredictable, if the info is available and if someone is investigating, then when you implement the bonding runestones with such mechanic (confirmed by the devs), I assume that someone is aware of what is doing (i.e WAI).
Last patch we got alliances. Did it work as intended? A broken buffmechanic causing gamebreaking interactions is WAI...hmmmm
So why , on request, did the dev say "the new mechanic is WAI"? The Alliance issues was a functional problem: you press a button and it doesn't work. The bonding runestone mechanic is an interaction between "systems" (the toons): it's subtle, but it's well known, reported, described, shown on videos, under investigation by the devs. Only this evening @ironzerg79 said that it's not WAI. Those "buffmechanic causing gamebreaking interactions" are well known by the DCs since December 2015 (at least) and constantly reported in this forum. Till now silence: can you please explain me why? The interaction is the same, nothing has changed: the difference is given by the "efficency" of the bonding runestones which make it more visible and it grows exponentially if more than 1 cleric is around and more power is injected by other classes. In the temple forum, we were discussing about the idea to have this behavior fixed to some extent: please search the forum and you will find my opinion as well. I recorded a SW puppet dealing 7.5 mlns 3 months ago and you can see it in the Orcus's speed kills videos: where do you think all that damage comes from? from ITF only? Even after the GoH nerf and the OP bubble nerf, the speed kills went on. I'm at 124k everytime instead of every 20 seconds for few seconds. It's ridiculous, but nothing really unexpected (at least for me). On request, the devs said "this behavior is WAI". Paradoxically, the gamebreaking interactions are the consequence of having been considered the new bonding runestone mechanic as WAI. General speaking it's quite difficult to foreseen the effect of a new feature in a complex system: it's like when the rabbits landed in Australia (http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2009/04/08/2538860.htm) . But in this case, no excuses: everything was well known.
I stop here. We have two different opinions: we can live with them. Nothing personal.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
0
jeffsliderMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 112Arc User
All threads I read so far about powerbuffs did not get into detail, no thread told the truth about 3 powerbuffs bouncing back from companion towards you in detail, and @rapo you obviously did not know about it the day before, stating that the only problem is WoL in a 25 DC run. WoL is bugged , and companions should not get buffed the way they are atm.
I must react again because what you're saying is false and not fair. Proof (30 March 2016): http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1214345/major-power-inconsistency-annointed-army-and-companions-gift-acting-funny @lerapiso818: "You buff your pet power, each r12 bonding procc give you back 95% of his buffed power". The behavior of WoL was described by @lerapiso818 as well in the post removed about the DCs run. That's why I gave him the credits. This is also the post where @thefabricant shared the hypothesis that the power is caped at 150k. In a previous post, it seems that you know that. Sorry: I don't see any post from you or anyone else yelling "It's not WAI!!!" in that thread: not you, not the mods, not the devs..... Uhmm I see a post by myself confirming the mechanic....uhm...Were you sleeping?. And the mechanic is the same, but today with more power over the time injected The previous bonding mechanic was less disruptive than the new one from the DC perspective.
@rapo you obviously did not know about it the day before, stating that the only problem is WoL in a 25 DC run.
Please stop saying lies about me if you don't have evidence of what you're saying. The link above proves the opposite of what you're stating (30 March 2016). Writing "obviously" shows your intention to create a flame without a good reason. Apologies from you would be appreciated. The post is still there, probably ignored as usual by whoever has the responsibility to look at it and where none wrote "it's not WAI!!"...please explain why if the mechanic is exactly the same. The OP called it politely "major inconsistency"
And now you're stating that WoL is bugged. Using your own words:"I am fed up about a logic, pretending it is bugged because noone told it isn't". WoL has its own mechanic..as a mechanic it has its own behavior which become strange if someone introduces features that touch the power stat without understanding the consequence on the classes. WoL was designed before mod 6 when the power values were lower than today. Then bonding runestones, power creeps, power from the mounts, power from the OP, power from the SW and they lost the control on the behavior of the overall system. What happens here is close to theso called "butterlfy effect" and it's visible when 2 or more clerics start playing with the power stats while WoL is one of the drivers of this effect: a small increase of power becomes a monster at a certain point.
If you know how it works, everyone can open a spreadsheet and write down some formulas. I give you a homework: let's assume that the companions is not buffed anymore. How much power can my cleric transfer? I can tell you that the result is interesting. If the cleric is not BiS, how much power is generated if the companion is unbuffed? Are the bonding runestones the best choice in this case? Can you evaluate the RoI given that the b.runestones are very expensive? (This has an impact on Cryptic's cash flow...btw).
I understand your frustration, but I invite you to read more the forum. Apparently all threads you read so far are not the right ones.
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
I gave a SHORT and every easy explanation wich is hart to find in those threads. It's all about you and your distance to your companion. No companion at 30 feet range, no rebuff. Dead companion, no rebuff. Casting AA in different order , before fight or infight, different results. Stop posting walls of text please. About the homework , i already stated about my powerstats without rebuff, ,just read yourself and stop making this a science task. It's a simple and obviously issue, wich can be understood by a 12year old child.
I gave a SHORT and every easy explanation wich is hart to find in those threads.
It's all about you and your distance to your companion.
No companion at 30 feet range, no rebuff.
Dead companion, no rebuff.
Casting AA in different order , before fight or infight, different results.
Stop posting walls of text please.
About the homework , i already stated about my powerstats without rebuff, ,just read yourself and stop making this a science task.
It's a simple and obviously issue, wich can be understood by a 12year old child.
Again: I understand you frustration, trivializing the object of a discussion is always a tentative to hide the lack of arguments,,, not fair again. But you don't talk about WAI anymore: a good step in the right direction. Yes...so simple and obvious that more details were requested. Unfortunately you were not able to provide them, obsessed by your WAI- not WAI problem ("science" helps sometimes to prevent a discussion like this one). I post what I want, I don't have to ask your permission. If you don't like, don't read it...none forces you. At this point I hope that a mod puts this exchange in the trash: it's not constructive...really.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
I can say that the power buffing works exactly as rapo had stated and in the Temple it's been discussed, shared and vocalize well before the bonding update. This has worked this way for a long time.
The all DC Tia, all DC edemo, all DC CN etc runs. All highlighted the crazy power buffs. A long time ago.
I can´t accept an argument, stating that a companionbuff is needed because a healspec doesn´t deal enough damage.
Damnation warlock runs ammok and the puppet is getting buffed from all sources dealing >10mio hits, WAI? Not in my world. But this prevents the class from being fixed, dealing silly damage in different ways, so it´s annoying and needs a fix. This only can be achieved by stopping those buffs swapping all over the landscape.
ITF, a buff based on DR, boosted by two aoe from DC and the sigil of devoted, this can´t be considered being WAI.
WoL, a powerbuff wich climbs up to millions, because he get´s overbuffed several times, WAI? not in my world, bad designed and broken from the first moment. [Btw. you get 50% from your base power by AA (allways a fix amount) and 25% together from WoL+BF from your "current-buffed-power". -->Battle fervor acts like WoL--> some homework for rapo maybe]
A healing spell wich is healing a piece of wood in SH PVP, WAI?
Right, the problem right now is that it's affecting other people's damage and you don't need 25 dc's to recreate such crazy numbers, it only takes 2.
ofc and it cannot be different given that the clerics are at max power. Here how it works with two BiS clerics and 1 Bis GwF casting AA, all with 3 bonding runestones on 3 offensive slots. The calculation is not perfect because it's not easy to model the reinforcing loop between 2 clerics on excel, it's not dynamic and I did it in a hurry, but i think it's a decent approximation of the values that you see often in game here and there. This only takes into account 2 DCs, bonding runestones and nothing else..but it's not difficult to figure out what happen when other sources of power are in. The WoL component is relevant at high power: it's important to note that the effect of two clerics is not the sum of the two, it's much much more. If you put a 3rd cleric instead of a GWF....well....you know....
@metalldjt. I'm open to every solution, but it must be reasonable. I'm quite worried when overloaded and overtasked devs under challenging deadlines try quick and dirty solutions.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
I think everyone is missing the point of the original post and using this as an excuse to nerf the GF and his scary ITF buff. You guys are thinking too much, fix the broken power interaction first. If people are still too powerful for the current content maybe they need to look at adding more difficult content or adding an adjustable difficulty option. The nerf and buff strategy is not good for the game in the long run. And right now we have characters that can exceed the min item level for dungeons by a large amount.
As stated, BF acts like WoL, taking the current power and not the basepower into account. You can test it very easy by using your companions in range and out of range, note that power. It displays exactly a 25% buff/rebuff from both feats and an allways fix buff tied to your baspower from AA.
Maybe you should start a new thread called overpowered fiasco and throw around your great ideas about how to make the game a slow, boring mess. The original poster already did all the testing and has isolated the cause. So 3 pages of comments that all point fingers at each other is pretty pointless.
Maybe you should start a new thread called overpowered fiasco and throw around your great ideas about how to make the game a slow, boring mess. The original poster already did all the testing and has isolated the cause. So 3 pages of comments that all point fingers at each other is pretty pointless.
You are so wrong, since these threads at least got noticed by somone, no matter if everone got his own arguments and PoV getting into heat discussions, in the end no personal hate, only disagreement. We behave pretty well .... compared to Donald Trump. In case you are a fanboy of speedkill-threads, head over and enjoy.
Comments
So:
1. Basically all is gear dependant and you are complaining something that only a very small group of can reproduce.
1.a. I mean "you can have all buffs and related increase of pow,rec,cri,ls,arpen,dr which make you feel you comfortable".
2. Just 1 bonding should work, the highest one.
2.a. The way the bondings worked before Cryptic make them the carrot hanging from the stick.
2.b. YES Bonding should gave the pet a buff that won't return.
3. I misunderstood your "can do pretty good in CN" so basically i can do pretty good in CN too, in 1h20m with every group or 40min even with all 2,5 and one orange blink dog w 10/11/12 bonding neckneckring of another person. Moreover companions won't make iL (something similar your old GS).
4. I wrote that in the wrong line, NO BUFF TO companions will affect in negative way EVERYONE, for exemple but not limited there are puppets from SW and buffs from GF.
5. What buffing and what stacking are decisions made by some. BTW my opinion is that a Siege Machine is buffable as long it is a NPC (standalone or companion), about stacking i wish that each different source, or subsequent cast, applies a buff and so stacking with the same unexpired alredy apllied.
Look guys, this is a serious issue going on behind the scenes here. Stacking power into the hundreds of thousands and millions, then hitting for 10's of millions of points of damage is obviously NOT the intent here. I appreciate the threads on this subject, and trust me, I want this to get fixed as much as anyone else. To those who have more information to contribute to this thread, please do.
Fixing something is NOT the same as nerfing it. If there are broken mechanics or powers causing unintended consquences, it needs to be addressed. And to do that, we need to get as much information on the root cause of the problem. Willy nilly nerfing won't fix anything.
So please keep that in mind before posting. This is a serious issue, and I'll be pruning any off-topic posts from this thread.
For those trying to keep the discussion on topic, please do not engage with those going off topic. Use the report function as needed.
Thanks.
I'm pretty sure you just described what is not happening here. But I do agree, no nerfs, add content that fits more with 3.5+ IL to keep it interesting.
Before the introduction of the bonding runestones mechanic and before groups >5 were possible, the overall behavior of the power buff (AA+BF+WoL), companion included, has been always considered WAI. So if you touch them, then it's a nerf.
Imo all we have is "WAI" (I will come back to this in a second), it worked as it is today for years. New stuff has been introduced without studying the consequences:I call it bad design, because it breakes what was considered WAI till yesterday.
Work As Intended means that a design cycle is in place where all the consequences are considered: here it's clear that this was not done. So talking about WAI or not-WAI is meaningless. Even more the 25 DCs experience already showed the consequences, but that was not taken into account when the bonding runestones were "fixed". This is scary...
Now, how to fix:
- Downgrading again the feats of the cleric: this is a nerf and it would be the 100th to cover the 100th design failure. That's not right. Period.
- Reviewing the interaction between the toon (not only the cleric) and the companion -> this is a design fix, but it has some consequences that hit not only the clerics, but also other classes.
- Reviewing the bonding mechanic.
- Finally, my preferred one: release new contents designed to challenge such mechanic.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
In case of 2 or more AC/DCs, it becomes an exponential interaction because there's a positive loop coming back from the clerics. It's like adding 20k^y [i don't have this precise number] to the toon and to the companion, plus the WoL effect, everthing times the runestones buff. I hope someone else can do the calc...I'm too lazy and not paid for it (but I can tell you that 3 AC/DCs with WoL can buff up to 1 milion power).
If you add to this other power sources (OP, SW, potions, mounts powers,...), then it becomes higher and higher + ITF and whatever you want...
Again: how do the devs want to fix this? See my previous post...
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
What you show is exactly the problem; and it is not the dc, it is the interaction with companions and how bondings rebuff those interactions. Me, as an user of augment, i only give to allies 19k power (i have the same 24k base power). I consider 19k as power buff is fine coming from a buffer class.
I see this from a different point of view: the DC's interaction with companion and the other classes has always been there from the beginning of NW. The runestones make it overpower = bad design.
Incredibly, this has been discussed in the Temple forum for months...it's well known.
And even if you fix this, there are other mechanics for massive damages.
If you consider 19k a reasonable buff, then the bonding runestones should be deleted.
Another way to solve it: cooldown of the bonding runestones.
PS:
@ironzerg79
I'm not here to criticize, but the post in the Temple forum where this issue was reported had been removed by the mods "for investigation by the devs" one month ago. In that thread many clerics reported how it works, at least in principle. It's a bit off topic, but this has to do with the quality of the interaction between the devs and the players and how the feedbacks from the players are considered (see the recent issues with the alliance...)
As a DC, I was aware of the consequence of the new mechanic when this was described by the devs, but the devs stated that this WAI (for the moment).
To be honest: I'm not open to share what I know, not because I want to take advantage of it, but because I don't see any reason to do it given that players are not listened at the right time. I hope to have my post published back in the Temple forum as promised by the mods: the investigation is now over.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
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I know this lasts for long, enough threads about that in the past, but I also know this is by sure not WAI , lol.
How do you know it´s WAI???
Did cryptic wrote you a letter telling:
"Hi rapo,
we implemented this autobuffslope for clerics and their party to melt content in no time and we gave you high bondings on top , now 95% each, to get that buff for a total ammount of 400% in the sum. We hope you enjoy this service. Btw. this only will work in case you run one special build, special tree few feats and powers and a special paragon (AC), all other classes and builds and paragons will succ compared to that one , just keep it secret.
In general we appreciate our buffs to lead to unpredictable interactions and crazy synergies affecting you, your companion and the chair next to you.
Greetings your PW team. "
No, I am fed up about a logic, pretending it is WAI because noone told it´s not.
I am 110% sure cryptic/devs have no clue about the effect and buffinteractions they produce, I am pretty sure they even don´t know what is getting buffed and what not, because they do not test stuff, they just patch and go.
NWO is filled up with bugs, silly interacting buffs and gamebreaking nonsense , like this one.
All threads I read so far about powerbuffs did not get into detail, no thread told the truth about 3 powerbuffs bouncing back from companion towards you in detail, and @rapo you obviously did not know about it the day before, stating that the only problem is WoL in a 25 DC run.
WoL is bugged , and companions should not get buffed the way they are atm.
Alternativ is fix bondings, wich will not fix puppet, shadow deamon etc. acting like Chuck Norris...we witnessed this silly buffmix for such a long time now, i vote for an end of companionbuffs.
- You don't know what you're talking about. There are at least two AC builds, and not one, providing the same effect.
- it's not unpredictable: it was widely discussed one month ago in the temple forum. I just created a simulation based on info already available: it's not rocket science, it's not a secret and everyone can write some stupid formulas.The behavior was explained very well by @lerapiso818 and visible in the 25 DCs Tiamt run - Unfortunately the post was removed "for investigation". The new bonding mechanic makes it only faster.
If it's not unpredictable, if the info is available and if someone is investigating, then when the bonding runestones mechanic is implemented in this way (which is not new, only reinforced and confirmed by the devs), I assume that someone is aware of what is doing (i.e WAI).
And, btw, I can only talk about the DC: I don't know if other classes have some broken interactions.
[EDIT]
Again WoL+BF+AA+companion were been considered WAI before the introduction of the bonding runstones and even after it. I started the 5 DCs run post in this forum in December 2015. At that time, I was around with 75k power as an average and normal bonding runestones. 5 DCs with some bonding runestones run dungeouns with 200k (reported) power. @illhora reporting 1,5 milions damage, and no one said nothing till the Tiamat run...and some months later...scandal. The new mechanic with no cooldown of the bonding runestone makes it only more evident and strong, but nothing really new.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
A broken buffmechanic causing gamebreaking interactions is WAI...hmmmm
The threads you mention did not tell all details about rebuffs etc. , the key issue was WoL as I remember.
I read those stuff , some considered it to be a bugged effect , wich will not effect the most part of the game, since 25 DC runs a rare and Cryptic forgot about it.
The Alliance issues was a functional problem: you press a button and it doesn't work.
The bonding runestone mechanic is an interaction between "systems" (the toons): it's subtle, but it's well known, reported, described, shown on videos, under investigation by the devs.
Only this evening @ironzerg79 said that it's not WAI. Those "buffmechanic causing gamebreaking interactions" are well known by the DCs since December 2015 (at least) and constantly reported in this forum. Till now silence: can you please explain me why? The interaction is the same, nothing has changed: the difference is given by the "efficency" of the bonding runestones which make it more visible and it grows exponentially if more than 1 cleric is around and more power is injected by other classes.
In the temple forum, we were discussing about the idea to have this behavior fixed to some extent: please search the forum and you will find my opinion as well.
I recorded a SW puppet dealing 7.5 mlns 3 months ago and you can see it in the Orcus's speed kills videos: where do you think all that damage comes from? from ITF only? Even after the GoH nerf and the OP bubble nerf, the speed kills went on.
I'm at 124k everytime instead of every 20 seconds for few seconds. It's ridiculous, but nothing really unexpected (at least for me). On request, the devs said "this behavior is WAI". Paradoxically, the gamebreaking interactions are the consequence of having been considered the new bonding runestone mechanic as WAI.
General speaking it's quite difficult to foreseen the effect of a new feature in a complex system: it's like when the rabbits landed in Australia (http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2009/04/08/2538860.htm) . But in this case, no excuses: everything was well known.
I stop here. We have two different opinions: we can live with them.
Nothing personal.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Proof (30 March 2016):
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1214345/major-power-inconsistency-annointed-army-and-companions-gift-acting-funny
@lerapiso818: "You buff your pet power, each r12 bonding procc give you back 95% of his buffed power".
The behavior of WoL was described by @lerapiso818 as well in the post removed about the DCs run.
That's why I gave him the credits.
This is also the post where @thefabricant shared the hypothesis that the power is caped at 150k. In a previous post, it seems that you know that.
Sorry: I don't see any post from you or anyone else yelling "It's not WAI!!!" in that thread: not you, not the mods, not the devs..... Uhmm I see a post by myself confirming the mechanic....uhm...Were you sleeping?. And the mechanic is the same, but today with more power over the time injected
The previous bonding mechanic was less disruptive than the new one from the DC perspective. Please stop saying lies about me if you don't have evidence of what you're saying. The link above proves the opposite of what you're stating (30 March 2016). Writing "obviously" shows your intention to create a flame without a good reason. Apologies from you would be appreciated.
The post is still there, probably ignored as usual by whoever has the responsibility to look at it and where none wrote "it's not WAI!!"...please explain why if the mechanic is exactly the same. The OP called it politely "major inconsistency"
And now you're stating that WoL is bugged. Using your own words:"I am fed up about a logic, pretending it is bugged because noone told it isn't". WoL has its own mechanic..as a mechanic it has its own behavior which become strange if someone introduces features that touch the power stat without understanding the consequence on the classes. WoL was designed before mod 6 when the power values were lower than today. Then bonding runestones, power creeps, power from the mounts, power from the OP, power from the SW and they lost the control on the behavior of the overall system.
What happens here is close to theso called "butterlfy effect" and it's visible when 2 or more clerics start playing with the power stats while WoL is one of the drivers of this effect: a small increase of power becomes a monster at a certain point.
If you know how it works, everyone can open a spreadsheet and write down some formulas.
I give you a homework: let's assume that the companions is not buffed anymore. How much power can my cleric transfer? I can tell you that the result is interesting. If the cleric is not BiS, how much power is generated if the companion is unbuffed? Are the bonding runestones the best choice in this case? Can you evaluate the RoI given that the b.runestones are very expensive? (This has an impact on Cryptic's cash flow...btw).
I understand your frustration, but I invite you to read more the forum. Apparently all threads you read so far are not the right ones.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
It's all about you and your distance to your companion.
No companion at 30 feet range, no rebuff.
Dead companion, no rebuff.
Casting AA in different order , before fight or infight, different results.
Stop posting walls of text please.
About the homework , i already stated about my powerstats without rebuff, ,just read yourself and stop making this a science task.
It's a simple and obviously issue, wich can be understood by a 12year old child.
But you don't talk about WAI anymore: a good step in the right direction. Yes...so simple and obvious that more details were requested. Unfortunately you were not able to provide them, obsessed by your WAI- not WAI problem ("science" helps sometimes to prevent a discussion like this one).
I post what I want, I don't have to ask your permission. If you don't like, don't read it...none forces you.
At this point I hope that a mod puts this exchange in the trash: it's not constructive...really.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
The all DC Tia, all DC edemo, all DC CN etc runs. All highlighted the crazy power buffs. A long time ago.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
I can´t accept an argument, stating that a companionbuff is needed because a healspec doesn´t deal enough damage.
Damnation warlock runs ammok and the puppet is getting buffed from all sources dealing >10mio hits, WAI? Not in my world.
But this prevents the class from being fixed, dealing silly damage in different ways, so it´s annoying and needs a fix. This only can be achieved by stopping those buffs swapping all over the landscape.
ITF, a buff based on DR, boosted by two aoe from DC and the sigil of devoted, this can´t be considered being WAI.
WoL, a powerbuff wich climbs up to millions, because he get´s overbuffed several times, WAI? not in my world, bad designed and broken from the first moment.
[Btw. you get 50% from your base power by AA (allways a fix amount) and 25% together from WoL+BF from your "current-buffed-power". -->Battle fervor acts like WoL--> some homework for rapo maybe]
A healing spell wich is healing a piece of wood in SH PVP, WAI?
Here how it works with two BiS clerics and 1 Bis GwF casting AA, all with 3 bonding runestones on 3 offensive slots.
The calculation is not perfect because it's not easy to model the reinforcing loop between 2 clerics on excel, it's not dynamic and I did it in a hurry, but i think it's a decent approximation of the values that you see often in game here and there. This only takes into account 2 DCs, bonding runestones and nothing else..but it's not difficult to figure out what happen when other sources of power are in. The WoL component is relevant at high power: it's important to note that the effect of two clerics is not the sum of the two, it's much much more. If you put a 3rd cleric instead of a GWF....well....you know....
@metalldjt.
I'm open to every solution, but it must be reasonable. I'm quite worried when overloaded and overtasked devs under challenging deadlines try quick and dirty solutions.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
You can test it very easy by using your companions in range and out of range, note that power. It displays exactly a 25% buff/rebuff from both feats and an allways fix buff tied to your baspower from AA.
We behave pretty well .... compared to Donald Trump.
In case you are a fanboy of speedkill-threads, head over and enjoy.