About "healthy threads"

clonkyo1 · May 2016

I will make the main reference about the main source of this topic i want to talk about:

http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/12825487

Edit: Mod fixed link

I think we should start from, on which IMO is, the main source of the problem: Players who invent data, providing it like if it were real, players who state that "videos and ACT are not real data" (??, since when these are not "real" data?) or, worse yet, players saying providing nothing but toxicity to threads and to the discussion itself.

I know that some "ways to deal with these users" are, in example, Shadow bans but, as far as i can see, these very same players, providing the aforedmentioned stuff on threads are still not shadow baned at all, which means that we, real and legit players, will not get a "healthy thread" because, usually, these kind of users only posts on the threads where their own "interests" are threatened, turning the thread into a "war" which will bring nothing to the game. But as each time i watch these threads closed while those players are NOT either banned or shadow banned a lot of players feel like "trolls won" which will make other threads turn into those one closed.

So, just to get a start point: i think we should ignore and report these all well known players when they post their biased stuff on aforementioned threads, that way, we, as a community, will have a healthy thread where we can discuss the pros and cons about "nerf this/buff that". What do you think about my solution?? I know it's too tempting to answer them back, but we all should avoid it in the shake of "balance" and "fun" , which, sadly, are long lost thanks to these players.

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deathbeez · May 2016

I think the moderators of this forum do a fantastic job.

They are a resource to this game's community and do it completely for free.

I think the patience in the thread you're referring to was more then fairly moderated, considering it's dubious intent.

And I think this thread is entirely in poor taste and have every intention of reporting it for the flame-bait trash it is.

Edit: Pour/poor, fanatic/fantastic (it's early)

deathbeez · May 2016

Disputing an Infraction
"PWE has the final say on all aspects of this community. If you have a problem, you may make a complaint to PWE directly through our support site, and not publicly on the website. Creating threads or posts that question or reference administrative decisions or potential administrative decisions, such as post removals and thread closures, is not permitted."

http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1191393

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kvet · May 2016

The job of a moderator is a really tough one. If they "over-moderate" they get smeared as power hungy meanies who are overstepping their authority. If they "under-moderate" they end up being told they're not doing enough, or that their siding with one player over another, etc. It's a Goldilocks conundrum... So what's just right? That's REALLY hard to say.

We need to remember that the moderators, just like the rest of us, are people too. They have their opinions and biases and, for the most part anyway, are able to remain objective. I think the current batch of mods do a great job, as close to hitting that "just right amount of moderation" as they can - certainly it's better now that it was, say, a year ago at any rate.

I don't think we can put the onus of keeping threads civil onto the mods. This community, like many (most?) MMO communities, has people capable of carrying on civil and production conversations and people that just can't. When those latter types go over the line, the mods handle it pretty effectively, but that line is pretty generous which is really as it should be. We NEED to be able to have open and honest conversions, even arguments. It's only when the thread truly devolves, or when a specific post is so egregious and irrelevant, that a mod needs to step in officially. That's, to be perfectly frank, what they do now. They've found a good balance finally, so I think they're to be commended.

The rest is on us. Lord knows I'm guilty of getting my hackles up, but I try very hard to keep things in perspective... as a community, the best thing WE can do is just... not react when someone is being a troll. Ignore them. Don't reply to them. Don't further an argument for the sake of arguing. It's hard sometimes, and as I said, I'm not perfect angel, but the only thing we can really do as a community is just... not succumb to the temptation and lower ourselves to the level of a troll.

ironzerg79 · May 2016

I understand the frustration. It's extremely difficult in a lot of regards to have a productive discussion on these boards without people jumping in to troll or flame-bait someone. But the best course of action is to not take the bait or engage with the trolls. Please report the offending posts, along with your concerns and the team will deal with the post on a case by case basis.

It's far easier for the moderation team to deal with each report individually, than to jump into a thread once it's already gotten out of control. It also creates a trail of moderation that we can track, so that we're better able to deal with personalities that are constantly or intentionally disruptive.

EDIT: Also, please don't make this thread about moderation. Let's talk about ways we can make this board a better place to discuss ideas, feedback, get help and otherwise be a happier and more productive place. We know moderation is a part of that, but let's not get into the weeds talking about specifics here.

throsbi · May 2016

I am so biting my lip on this one. But I will say the moderators can and do take sides and sometimes you see that reflected in the things they post. It shows they are human and its a good thing. It also shows how hard it is for anyone to remain on the fence and keep all us sheeple running along in the right direction.

I am not going to make quotes or post links to rules and things of that nature. Anyone reading this has more than likely read the forum rules. If not you should.

I will say this even if you think you know someone is trolling or trying to start a flame war just follow the rules of conduct and reporting as you should. If you think you can pass along some knowledge or brighten someones day by adding than by all means do so.

Someone posted a couple links to a comic on another thread that not only made reading thru the thread worthwhile, it also put a smile on my face.

Edited to correct some mistakes. Brain works faster than the fingers............

bitt3rnightmar3 · May 2016

The problem that I have noticed in many threads on this forum is one of ego. While I do not feel the need to comment on many things I read I do regularly keep up with these threads. No one likes being told they are wrong or to look at things differently. In order to have a discussion with constructive collaboration *Both* sides of the argument need to be present and willing to engage with the possibility that they may learn something, change their minds or invent a new possibility through discussion. If someone doesn't understand something or worse yet thinks they understand something when infact they do not they become more hostile when proven or shown to be incorrect instead of listening or accepting humility. No one is an expert at everything- if you are why infact are you concerning yourself with these small arguments if you are not present to bring constructivity?

If the majority keeps on the 'Nerf you buff me' train or passive aggressive trolling the discussion will not move forward to a constructive place. It's madness really and I don't expect anyone to agree all the time on everything! Disagreeing is one thing.. but bringing it to the level where personal attacks start and constructive criticism stop is pointless and a waste of time for everyone involved as well as devaluing to the argument/counter arguments presented.

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bitt3rnightmar3 · May 2016

clonkyo1 said:

The problem is, basically, that those "trolls" will enter on every single thread to put it upside down only for the sake of their own selfishness. That's why i opened this thread, to give other players some ideas to "fight" these "trolls" whose only want to ruin the game at any cost.

While it's every 'Good Citizen's' responsibility to report offenses.. the vast majority of people will simply ignore the offenders and not want to be involved with a flame war or troll fest and stop interacting with the forum entirely. Basically- the more attention you pay to trolls the more of them show up looking to get paid- the more the discussion is derailed and made pointless. That is why in essence, there are so many 'trolls' commenting on all the threads.. the majority of people are choosing not to report or engage with any part of this and I honestly can't say that they are at fault for their choice.

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kreatyve · May 2016

So many times I have had to tell people to just report and ignore the people who are flaming or trying to derail a thread. If you are quoting or responding to a flame, even if you are not flaming yourself - your comment will be removed along with theirs. Depending on how busy we are, you may even get a warning about it. To quote the rules directly:

Report violations, do not quote them or reply to them. Responding to a violation in an inflammatory manner is a violation in itself and will result in appropriate action.

Us moderators are unpaid volunteers. We do not have to do this. We do this because we want these forums to be a safe environment to talk about the game that many of us love very much. We want people to be able to come here if they are seeking answers to their questions regarding the game, without fear of being harassed or trolled.

Many people have asked me why I personally would want to be a moderator. That's the reason. I love this game. I love this community. I've always been a player first, moderator 2nd.

deathbeez · May 2016

@xsayajinx1
@thefabricant kept it classy and has my respect, even if we didn't agree.
If he didn't make that thread, some else was going too. The FotM GF KC/ITF/AoD cheesebot is broken.

I agree about your other emm points.
I think this forum needs to be cleaned up a bit. No, not a bit. A LOT.

wildfirede · May 2016

I have another question regarding the topic

Was a single suggestion in the last 10-20 pages actually ever accepted by the devs in any form?

The lostmauth nerf was actually a fix for a set bonus behaving not as described and the paladin nerf should have happened even before release....

What else came in the last six months :

vip system - noone asked AFAIK

trade bar nerf - actually the oposite most players hated it 40+ pages ...

mount system - yea power creeeep noone asked - some mounts still broken

strongholds - yeaa grind till you burn out, nothing to do with housing (but it is the new bot playground)

nodes nerf - yea i myself asked for bots being hindered a few times but making those enchants boa would have done exactly the same.

queue system - not exactly what anyone asked (good side ppl can queue in 10+ instances with friends) atleast it works now.

what we did not get:

bug fixes - some over a year old,

tooltips... some plain wrong since day one but hey atleast the astral deva one was fixed after two years...

class balance - a open letter to the community that did promise they will look into it ...gl...

so dunno what healthy treads will bring if there is no response from the other side...and no response makes people angry.

deathbeez · May 2016

defiantone99 said:
or they do not want class balance.

We've been over this like a billion times. When it's 'hey, we want class balance...but start by nerfing those other guys over there...and throw us a few buffs too bro' It's going to get personal. It's because this game is a source of pleasure; fun, reality escape, rp, etc. Everyone is going to fiercely protect their stake in their toon. That's why some MMO boards nuke nerf/buff threads on site--because of this.

Humans are really awful when debating topics their passionate about. Ever see/hear about a divorce? Whoa. You see the animal come out.

Look at history. Advancements in medicine, logistics, technology, transport, because we wanted to be better at destroying each other over the coarse of five thousand years. It's in our blood.

So sometimes it's best to let an outside party arbitrate, like the devs, and we watch from the side. Because we keep going in circles on this buff me, nerf them nonsense, that's been going on.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. No matter how much noise making threads you and the other two GWFs make. I think a balancing agenda is already secretly laid out and we're wasting key-strokes.

And the last one, I really didn't think we had a problem and were on-topic (survivablity) when I asked about specific areas. It was the other two. Kind of like getting kicked out of the club because your bodyguards are out of line. You had some solid points.

kreatyve · May 2016

Just because the devs do not comment does not mean they are not reading and taking things into consideration. I think some people underestimate how long it takes for a idea to get realized in a game this large. Even with minor bugs - first they have do discover the source of the bug, then they must decide on the best course of action to fix the bug without breaking something else, they also have to prioritize the bug. Certain things that aren't game breaking or being majorly exploited, or not easily fixed, get set aside for things that can be easily fixed or are more serious in nature.

Then there are other issues, such as the trade bar store. I personally do not know the reasoning behind the removal of the wards. But I do know that they obviously did have a reason for doing so, even if it's not something immediately clear to the players. Do they have to share their reasoning with us? Not really. People do need to understand that they are running a business, and the bottom line is to make money, as is true with any business. Despite the people who said they are leaving or not spending any more money over the trade bar store, new players are coming in every day and they are spending money too.

But as for the "no response from the other side" would you rather have them posting on the forums all day or working on fixing bugs and making new content for the game?

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wildfirede · May 2016

well as you said they are not responding so - fixing bugs,

But i think i do not have to link

last two patch notes
vs
last six months of bug reports

to compare how much of them was fixed, wait make that 12 months.

So in 5 weeks time they managed to fix 3 bugs that were introduced with the new content and would not exist if someone actually tested the new pet for 15 minutes in actual gameplay or bothered to open a few nodes in the endgame zones.

not a single one from the bug forum on the old content or the player suggestions. Ok if we take the typo correction on astral deva we have one fix.

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dragoness10 · May 2016

That's fine if you are your own driver, but not so much if you're made to take the bus.

One thing I do miss about NWN Classic was the ability to go online, post packs and haks on a forum(s), then people could chose to add them in, or not to their servers. Nobody was "CEO in charge" per say after the initial purchase of the game, and it was online run by consumers. (Pros and cons on that one, but that's not part of this discussion.)

It's not so simple here. If people send in code fixes Cryptic may feel there would be a need to pay them for the work done, or it has to be accounted for somehow where the source is.

Code fixes also cannot be trusted at face value instantly just in case somewhere in that repair for say.... AP % gain for boons there's a LARGE loophole allowing all bots from UBErBotland to get in and farm rank 7's from the Tarmalune marketplace without opening Lockboxes.

That's exaggeration, but it has to be considered. A small fix of code in one place can affect code elsewhere unexpectedly.

These things which are simple to Devs seem to be the hardest to get the layman regular player to understand.

Then the trolls come in to aggravate everyone because things are not the way they want them, and they'd like to provoke a reaction out of you the player, and the Devs to respond. Online is a place you're "anonymous", and some people cannot in RL express negative emotions constructively so they take it out on forums, and other players.

Let the trolls waller in the irritating lack of response from ~you~. They'll throw themselves in the fire soon enough.

c1k4ml3kc3 · May 2016

This is an interesting thread. I like to see something more on the constructive side. I usually do not even go to other class forums to propose that certain things are kind of broken or simply not working as intended. People get really upset and emotional when I tell them that something is either ok or not ok. Or they consider me a troll, or a flame-lord (ironically so). I tend not to look at that, but I play a certain class, a certain level, and as such I must adhere to my class specifically since that's the trait/focus of my interest.

I tend to see things in a rather easy pattern. DCs should HEAL, Tanks should TANK, DPSers should DPS.
That ain't hard of a pattern.

Problem comes since each class has 3 types of choices for their run, and not everything can be maximized. As such, and with the data available at forums and due to the combat-log mining tools such as ACT, the entirety of the game focuses on the very BEST OF THE BEST aspects, and disregards everything else unless the point is not to play in such a way. Unfortunately, anything that's not "the best of the best" simply pales in comparison. It pales so much that it makes anything apart from "Best of the best" pretty much not viable be it because of the cost-investment needed to rebuild not just one, but pretty much every factor that represents equipment or because it's not really party-friendly and will be a nuisance rather than a much needed help.

There are three different parts of the game now (used to be two)

- 1st part is leveling from 1 to 60. That is SUPER UBER EXTRA EASY for anyone to do it solo, even the tankiest of classes can do it fast. You just take a companion, for instance Mystagogue. I, myself, leveled one MoF in 6 from 1 to 60 hours just doing quests. And I thought it was slow. I didn't even need to finish the entire quest-line, though.
- Now, you do not learn to play just by leveling. It is impossible to learn that with the classes. Or, rather, it's impossible to gain a much needed expertise with the class in such a short time-span. Not even once did I consider to join someone in leveling a toon, and I think that there is the problem. People do not need to find a party, aside from early dungeons like Clock Tower and similar. To this I'd propose a different song - to make people need to level-up a bit more drastically and make actual strategies for leveling up, so that they're not a fresh level 60-70 newbie who thinks that Gear Score dictates a skill.
- 2nd part, from level 60 to 70. Now, many people already got four quest-line boons at the point when MOD6 hit hard. There was Sharandar, Dread Ring, Icewind and Tiamat (WoD thingy), which made thingsa bit easier, however I'm sure that level 60 players experience a completely different game at that point, Things become SUPER HARD all of a sudden. Now, that's the place where they could experience a proper teamplay, but given the fact that thus far they've been running solo this is the point where newbiews will runaway and never play anymore. Cryptic should totally fix this by either making the very beginning of the game harder (1st part 1-60) or by making things easier. There already was something about making this easier, but I'm not sure that is the right thing to do. By the time they get to work with the team of guildies, or such, they act irresponsible and don't really possess that "teamplay" if you know what I mean. This is the part 3.
- 3rd part - THE REAL NEVERWINTER starts from level 70 and onward which makes it interesting since nothing is easily attainable. This part is all about transforming the mind of the newbies into somewhat average players. If they do not fall pray to the awful PvP by this time, they just might become a force in PvE depending upon how much they gear-up. However, the amount of the campaigns and the amount of daily quests is stupidly high at that point. The real question is - why does every character per account need to play all of the additional campaigns again and again? Something should definitely be done about that since not only are quests one the same, but imagine how it is for people who're collecting boons on several characters daily? 5000 ZEN for one campaign is too much to pay and I can't imagine anyone paying that much for each toon. It makes no sense.

So my proposition is that there's a particular ease-up midpoint that's not too steep for the newbies when going from 1 to 70and onward.

My other proposition is to bring back Spellplague dungeon. Why would you not bring it back? What's the catch? I can't find one solitary logical reason, unless the reason is that server doesn't have "Enough instances". Guess what? Buy more RAM and CPU for the Dragon[international] and earn more money by investing a bit. The game stops working, practically, if there're more than 10.000 people playing online. What's with that?

And my final proposition is that since I'm sure PvP clients will cry their mother's milk out if CWs get more control options - to actually increase the damage of the CWs generally by whatever means necessary, and specifically the AOE composition because that should be the strongest point of the CW imho and that's the best way to play a CW at this point since many got used to it.

On another note - I think that Smoke Bomb (TR) is somewhat buggy in composition with a CW spell such as Sudden Storm and Icy Terrain.
I also think that GFs shouldn't be able to do more damage than every other class. Guardian Fighters should not deal 1.000.000+ damage per swing, regardless of how slow it is, on a regular at-will, and still be tanky as hell.

A proposition for the armor :
Power + Crit + Recovery + Life Steal for the Control Wizard class. Don't give us items with Arpen + Recovery, nobody takes that when we need as much crit as possible.
If you want us to take more arpen + recovery, give us features that nullifies the necessity for the crit like it was in previous mods with the Eye of the Storm for the SS class.

Far out.

phoenix1021 · May 2016

That thread was a "nerf thread", these are not allowed, right? So what's the deal?

clonkyo1 said:

I think we should start from, on which IMO is, the main source of the problem: Players who invent data, providing it like if it were real, players who state that "videos and ACT are not real data" (??, since when these are not "real" data?) or, worse yet, players saying providing nothing but toxicity to threads and to the discussion itself.

Videos and screenshots of ACT are not real data. The combat logs would be.
Telling everyone they are not allowed to disagree with certain "elite" players won't solve anything.
The "not providing anything" is totally sbjective.

I think a big problem is that some people think this MMO, which is played 90% as PvE should be balanced like a competetive game. These people can't accept that someone has a bigger paingiver score or gets good items as random loot. Then come to the forum and suggest to change the game to accomodate them.
Then there are the conspiracy believers, you can see them right here in this thread saying the mods are "biased" or something like that. In other areas they suggest cryptic is manipulating the game for "more money". They have these "other forums", that shouldn't be believed one bit.
This seems to be the way things go on the internet these days though. I would just not participate in it.
The best thing the devs could do is just ignore all these threads and get the data themselves and decide on that the balance changes, without discussion. They must have some kind of design "plan" or philosophy, right? Just go for that. You can't trust a player of a game when it comes to changing the rules, ever.

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phoenix1021 · May 2016

clonkyo1 said:

phoenix1021 said:

Videos and screenshots of ACT are not real data. The combat logs would be.
Telling everyone they are not allowed to disagree with certain "elite" players won't solve anything.
The "not providing anything" is totally sbjective.
How come that a video showing, in example, a GF doing 100k crit damage vs other BiS player on 1v1 scenario is not real data? How come that a video showing, again as an example, a GF soloing eCC is not "real data" either? How is possible that ACT logs are not considered "real data" when its info is stracted from combatlogs themselves? Would you be kind enought to explain those points? . Because the only thing i get from your post is "these are not real data because i say so" ("subjetive" as you stated).

Because it is basically a photograph of a programm showing the data. As I said, real data would be providing the actual combat log. Then everyone could have a look what really causes the high damage spikes, instead of people that call for nerfs interpreting the data for everyone.

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phoenix1021 · May 2016

clonkyo1 said:

phoenix1021 said:

Because it is basically a photograph of a programm showing the data. As I said, real data would be providing the actual combat log. Then everyone could have a look what really causes the high damage spikes, instead of people that call for nerfs interpreting the data for everyone.
I may misunderstood you but... are you saying that we need to enter into the serverlogs themselves to get the info from there and post here? Are you saying that a video showing the previous scenario is "false" because "we dont really know what's causing those damage spikes"? Are you saying that a program which base its data on the combat log provided and recorded by the game itself it's false too? ... Now i get why we can't get "healthy discussions" on this forum.

Mods, you can close this thread already, it's totally useless.

There is an actual combat log file generated by the game that ACT parses, It's in your game folder and could be uploaded for everyone to parse themselves. That's the raw data I mean.
Also you are the one being passive-agressive here. You were asking why a screenshot of ACT wouldn't be "real" data.

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About "healthy threads"

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