Whatever, that wasn't the point of the thread anyway, this back and forth is pointless. But you totally showed what you originally asked, why these kind of discussions seem impossible. People come in here with the mindset "I am right". And when someone has a different opinion or viewpoint, they declare them to be dumb, irrational or not dedicated enough to understand. Basically, nobody comes here for honest discussion. That is probably why "nerf threads" are not allowed.
Videos and screenshots of ACT are not real data. The combat logs would be. Telling everyone they are not allowed to disagree with certain "elite" players won't solve anything. The "not providing anything" is totally sbjective.
How come that a video showing, in example, a GF doing 100k crit damage vs other BiS player on 1v1 scenario is not real data? How come that a video showing, again as an example, a GF soloing eCC is not "real data" either? How is possible that ACT logs are not considered "real data" when its info is stracted from combatlogs themselves? Would you be kind enought to explain those points? . Because the only thing i get from your post is "these are not real data because i say so" ("subjetive" as you stated).
Because it is basically a photograph of a programm showing the data. As I said, real data would be providing the actual combat log. Then everyone could have a look what really causes the high damage spikes, instead of people that call for nerfs interpreting the data for everyone.
I've met two types of people here on the forums. Those who accept the facts and congenially agree with the necessity for the changes and those who regardless of how much data is at their disposal will never accept/understand because they've "wasted AD" on something that for better or worse is a typical exploit and/or irregularity.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Videos and screenshots of ACT are not real data. The combat logs would be. Telling everyone they are not allowed to disagree with certain "elite" players won't solve anything. The "not providing anything" is totally sbjective.
How come that a video showing, in example, a GF doing 100k crit damage vs other BiS player on 1v1 scenario is not real data? How come that a video showing, again as an example, a GF soloing eCC is not "real data" either? How is possible that ACT logs are not considered "real data" when its info is stracted from combatlogs themselves? Would you be kind enought to explain those points? . Because the only thing i get from your post is "these are not real data because i say so" ("subjetive" as you stated).
Because it is basically a photograph of a programm showing the data. As I said, real data would be providing the actual combat log. Then everyone could have a look what really causes the high damage spikes, instead of people that call for nerfs interpreting the data for everyone.
Combat Log Since you seem to want this, the edemo with Freya and Quilla.
So, now I can see that you killed demogorgon in 13 seconds. Some people suddenly did millions of dps, probably due to some gamebreaking buffs/debuffs. It died so fast, one member of your group couldn't even get there in time to do a hit. Then at the last second Freya, buffed with at least knight's challenge, the cleric buffs and whatever debuffs you put on the enemy (everyone had about 300% effectiveness) landed one Anvil of Doom critical hit that did 12 million damage and put them at the dop of the dps charts. And that was a lucky hit too, because there was no 100% crit chance involved, and it wouldn't have worked on a full health enemy. You weren't able to pull that off at goristro either, so it can't be something that is achievable at will even with a group like that. How does anyone conclude from this very specific scenario that all the guardian fighters in the game are doing too much damage? That hit might as well have been a killing flames and everyone would say warlocks are op, or an ibs and everyone would cry about gwfs again.
The problem here is obviously how much buffs and debuffs stack and multiply each other, probably some old mod 5 sets (high prophet) involved as well.
Here is the damage graph for the fight against the boss, with that one huge spike from the 12 million AoD hit. Yes, I can make screenshots of graphs too!
Videos and screenshots of ACT are not real data. The combat logs would be. Telling everyone they are not allowed to disagree with certain "elite" players won't solve anything. The "not providing anything" is totally sbjective.
How come that a video showing, in example, a GF doing 100k crit damage vs other BiS player on 1v1 scenario is not real data? How come that a video showing, again as an example, a GF soloing eCC is not "real data" either? How is possible that ACT logs are not considered "real data" when its info is stracted from combatlogs themselves? Would you be kind enought to explain those points? . Because the only thing i get from your post is "these are not real data because i say so" ("subjetive" as you stated).
Because it is basically a photograph of a programm showing the data. As I said, real data would be providing the actual combat log. Then everyone could have a look what really causes the high damage spikes, instead of people that call for nerfs interpreting the data for everyone.
Combat Log Since you seem to want this, the edemo with Freya and Quilla.
So, now I can see that you killed demogorgon in 13 seconds. Some people suddenly did millions of dps, probably due to some gamebreaking buffs/debuffs. It died so fast, one member of your group couldn't even get there in time to do a hit. Then at the last second Freya, buffed with at least knight's challenge, the cleric buffs and whatever debuffs you put on the enemy (everyone had about 300% effectiveness) landed one Anvil of Doom critical hit that did 12 million damage and put them at the dop of the dps charts. And that was a lucky hit too, because there was no 100% crit chance involved, and it wouldn't have worked on a full health enemy. You weren't able to pull that off at goristro either, so it can't be something that is achievable at will even with a group like that. How does anyone conclude from this very specific scenario that all the guardian fighters in the game are doing too much damage? That hit might as well have been a killing flames and everyone would say warlocks are op, or an ibs and everyone would cry about gwfs again.
The problem here is obviously how much buffs and debuffs stack and multiply each other, probably some old mod 5 sets (high prophet) involved as well.
Here is the damage graph for the fight against the boss, with that one huge spike from the 12 million AoD hit. Yes, I can make screenshots of graphs too!
As if you couldn't see the fight was 13 seconds just by looking at the video. Also, this fight was rather slow, we have done much faster kills than this.
Goristro wasn't the same because the GF has to run backwards and forwards between the boss and the sanity well, you can see this in the video. The TR has a huge advantage there because of how much faster the class moves, if it weren't for that fact, that would have gone in the favour of the GF as well. Why does running backwards and forwards make such a difference? Well, if you consider the length of the fight, any time not spent at the boss puts you millions behind. https://youtu.be/RGQjysGMh-0 The video, so you can confirm what I say. Finally, the Anvil did NOT make the difference between first and second. I can say that with 100% confidence. Why? Because Paingiver measures HP removed, not damage dealt. The boss was at ~10% HP when that anvil landed, so only 10% of the bosses HP was removed by the anvil itself. 7:20 for the paingiver chart. The amount of HP removed in fact, was roughly equal to the amount of HP the TR removed at 7:04-7:05 with Shadow of Demise.
Context matters a lot, if you want to stick your own charts here to argue with, fine, but make sure you mention the context as well. The context can easily be found by looking at that the video.
Finally, you haven't said anything that wasn't glaringly obvious from the information I posted in that thread. Let me break it down for you.
This screenshot: 1) Effectiveness = how effective your damage was. More debuffs = higher effectiveness. There is an average effectiveness of 255% there so its fairly obvious that debuffs were used. 2) The video could have easily shown all of the debuffs used, *hint* they on the bar underneath the bosses name.
You want my justification for why I say GF does too much damage? Fine, when running as the only GF (hence, they are using itf and sacrificing some personal damage), GF breaks even with a TR and CW who are specced purely for dps. So, whilst fulfilling 2 roles (tank and DPS) the GF is able to do DPS equal to both of the other classes. When the GF doesn't have to fulfill both roles and only has to fulfill one, he does far more damage. Fair argument?
Now, considering the GF does have the capability of fulfilling multiple roles, as a pure dps, it should be in line with CW and when attempting to fulfill 2 roles, it should be beneath CW.
Look, @thefabricant, I really don't have the time to go through all of your videos and graphs. It just looks to me that the damage is pretty normal for a dps specced character except for spikes related to some insane multiplied buffs/debuffs.
The video, so you can confirm what I say. Finally, the Anvil did NOT make the difference between first and second. I can say that with 100% confidence. Why? Because Paingiver measures HP removed, not damage dealt. The boss was at ~10% HP when that anvil landed, so only 10% of the bosses HP was removed by the anvil itself. 7:20 for the paingiver chart. The amount of HP removed in fact, was roughly equal to the amount of HP the TR removed at 7:04-7:05 with Shadow of Demise.
That doesn't make any sense at all. According to the log you provided the rogue never had the chance to deal damage from shadow of demise, it did trigger from a smoke bomb, but the target died before the 6 seconds were over. That also looked like way more than 10% damage at the end, but it is hard to tell with how fast it went. Anyway, even if it was just a 5 million hit, substract that and you have the GF at the same general damage as all the other damage dealers.
Now just ask yourself how many groups in this game will ever have 300%+ effectiveness and 12 million damage hits. You are demanding this game to be changed to accomodate one or two organized groups because someone feels hurt about their dps.
And stop your patronizing, everyone here knows what effectivness means and how paingiver is calculated. This is exactly the kind of behavior that gets these threads closed.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Look, @thefabricant, I really don't have the time to go through all of your videos and graphs. It just looks to me that the damage is pretty normal for a dps specced character except for spikes related to some insane multiplied buffs/debuffs.
The video, so you can confirm what I say. Finally, the Anvil did NOT make the difference between first and second. I can say that with 100% confidence. Why? Because Paingiver measures HP removed, not damage dealt. The boss was at ~10% HP when that anvil landed, so only 10% of the bosses HP was removed by the anvil itself. 7:20 for the paingiver chart. The amount of HP removed in fact, was roughly equal to the amount of HP the TR removed at 7:04-7:05 with Shadow of Demise.
That doesn't make any sense at all. According to the log you provided the rogue never had the chance to deal damage from shadow of demise, it did trigger from a smoke bomb, but the target died before the 6 seconds were over. That also looked like way more than 10% damage at the end, but it is hard to tell with how fast it went. Anyway, even if it was just a 5 million hit, substract that and you have the GF at the same general damage as all the other damage dealers.
Now just ask yourself how many groups in this game will ever have 300%+ effectiveness and 12 million damage hits. You are demanding this game to be changed to accomodate one or two organized groups because someone feels hurt about their dps.
And stop your patronizing, everyone here knows what effectivness means and how paingiver is calculated. This is exactly the kind of behavior that gets these threads closed.
So, you basically admitting that, without anvil, GF does the same damage as the rest right? That means, that without its hardest hitting encounter, its breaking even, which means that with it, GF is doing more. Now, GF self buffs may very well be the issue, but the point is, the GF has a block mechanic, 60%+ DR and that kind of dps, in addition to the capability of being able to throw out a decent ITF. That leads me to question, what can a CW do in addition to dps. Can a CW control sturff? No, you have to sacrifice a lot of dps to gain any noticeable control. Can a CW tank stuff? No and even if you built for it, you still cannot. Can a CW heal? Not enough for any group that requires a healer. Can a CW buff/debuff? Not whilst also doing dps.
The point is, the GF does not have to sacrifice a significant amount to fulfill more than 1 roll. True, a buff GF is more efficient at buffing than a dps and a protector is a better tank, but its by marginal amounts. Also, you forgetting 1 thing, the tr there, is fully BiS with R8 SH boons and a bonding pet, the GF, has R8 offensive enchantments, R10 SH boons and an augment. That is right, an augment. So with an augment, a GF is able to compete with other classes using bonding stones. Also, my CW is also running with R12s.
I agree videos and data have some legitimacy.....obviously
With that said:
13 years of doing trade show demos for Intel also gives me some insight on how I can make you see what I want given the correct environment to do so. Not accusing anyone...... but I take that video/data with a grain of salt
It does appear some of you are truly trying to represent the data as correctly as possible - thanks for that.
My only opinion being a mostly "newish" player is....... I hate seeing nerf bats as devs always take it too far, I would rather see fixes to other classes before nerfing one. Nerf my GF? Ok, I still got 5 other Chr's at 2.5+, but don't cry when no one wants to play it anymore
I really don't have the time to go through all of your videos and graphs. It just looks to me that the damage is pretty normal for a dps specced character except for spikes related to some insane multiplied buffs/debuffs.
And I really don't think that you have what it takes to lead a healthy discussion first and foremost. "I don't have the time" "Pics are no real data" "DPS specced tank should deal most dps" "Nerf buffz"
All in all I'm just going to say LOL. Have a nice day.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
So, you basically admitting that, without anvil, GF does the same damage as the rest right? That means, that without its hardest hitting encounter, its breaking even, which means that with it, GF is doing more. Now, GF self buffs may very well be the issue, but the point is, the GF has a block mechanic, 60%+ DR and that kind of dps, in addition to the capability of being able to throw out a decent ITF. That leads me to question, what can a CW do in addition to dps. Can a CW control sturff? No, you have to sacrifice a lot of dps to gain any noticeable control. Can a CW tank stuff? No and even if you built for it, you still cannot. Can a CW heal? Not enough for any group that requires a healer. Can a CW buff/debuff? Not whilst also doing dps.
The point is, the GF does not have to sacrifice a significant amount to fulfill more than 1 roll. True, a buff GF is more efficient at buffing than a dps and a protector is a better tank, but its by marginal amounts. Also, you forgetting 1 thing, the tr there, is fully BiS with R8 SH boons and a bonding pet, the GF, has R8 offensive enchantments, R10 SH boons and an augment. That is right, an augment. So with an augment, a GF is able to compete with other classes using bonding stones. Also, my CW is also running with R12s.
All of this is still in a 13 second window. The only thing this might prove is that the GF does more burst damage than others. In your log and in other short fights, there are a lot of things that don't get a chance to even do damage, such as shadow of demise; thamaturge DoT damage, and other DoTs; assailant and other semi-random feats/powers might not trigger in time; one of your group didn't even get to the fight at all; a warlock might have it's puppet on cooldown; cooldowns in general; not having enough action points in the beginning of the fight to get a daily out in 13 seconds. The burst only wins because of all the buffs/debuffs. Go in there with paladins as support instead of clerics/guardians, have a fight that lasts a reasonable amount of time, then that data maybe can be used.
And to the sacrifice part; since everything dies in seconds in your groups, survivability is a moot point. Nothing will ever get to damage you.
0
kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
And - as this thread has completely derailed from the initial topic, it is now closed.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Comments
But you totally showed what you originally asked, why these kind of discussions seem impossible. People come in here with the mindset "I am right". And when someone has a different opinion or viewpoint, they declare them to be dumb, irrational or not dedicated enough to understand. Basically, nobody comes here for honest discussion. That is probably why "nerf threads" are not allowed.
Combat Log Since you seem to want this, the edemo with Freya and Quilla.
And that was a lucky hit too, because there was no 100% crit chance involved, and it wouldn't have worked on a full health enemy. You weren't able to pull that off at goristro either, so it can't be something that is achievable at will even with a group like that.
How does anyone conclude from this very specific scenario that all the guardian fighters in the game are doing too much damage?
That hit might as well have been a killing flames and everyone would say warlocks are op, or an ibs and everyone would cry about gwfs again.
The problem here is obviously how much buffs and debuffs stack and multiply each other, probably some old mod 5 sets (high prophet) involved as well.
Here is the damage graph for the fight against the boss, with that one huge spike from the 12 million AoD hit. Yes, I can make screenshots of graphs too!
http://imgur.com/1LrFoaj
As if you couldn't see the fight was 13 seconds just by looking at the video. Also, this fight was rather slow, we have done much faster kills than this.
Goristro wasn't the same because the GF has to run backwards and forwards between the boss and the sanity well, you can see this in the video. The TR has a huge advantage there because of how much faster the class moves, if it weren't for that fact, that would have gone in the favour of the GF as well. Why does running backwards and forwards make such a difference? Well, if you consider the length of the fight, any time not spent at the boss puts you millions behind.
The video, so you can confirm what I say. Finally, the Anvil did NOT make the difference between first and second. I can say that with 100% confidence. Why? Because Paingiver measures HP removed, not damage dealt. The boss was at ~10% HP when that anvil landed, so only 10% of the bosses HP was removed by the anvil itself. 7:20 for the paingiver chart. The amount of HP removed in fact, was roughly equal to the amount of HP the TR removed at 7:04-7:05 with Shadow of Demise.
Context matters a lot, if you want to stick your own charts here to argue with, fine, but make sure you mention the context as well. The context can easily be found by looking at that the video.
Finally, you haven't said anything that wasn't glaringly obvious from the information I posted in that thread. Let me break it down for you.
This screenshot:
1) Effectiveness = how effective your damage was. More debuffs = higher effectiveness. There is an average effectiveness of 255% there so its fairly obvious that debuffs were used.
2) The video could have easily shown all of the debuffs used, *hint* they on the bar underneath the bosses name.
Finally, as for how replicateable it is, well:
and I could provide a video of pretty much any dungeon done with Freya, to show it replicated over and over again.
You want my justification for why I say GF does too much damage? Fine, when running as the only GF (hence, they are using itf and sacrificing some personal damage), GF breaks even with a TR and CW who are specced purely for dps. So, whilst fulfilling 2 roles (tank and DPS) the GF is able to do DPS equal to both of the other classes. When the GF doesn't have to fulfill both roles and only has to fulfill one, he does far more damage. Fair argument?
Now, considering the GF does have the capability of fulfilling multiple roles, as a pure dps, it should be in line with CW and when attempting to fulfill 2 roles, it should be beneath CW.
Anyway, even if it was just a 5 million hit, substract that and you have the GF at the same general damage as all the other damage dealers.
Now just ask yourself how many groups in this game will ever have 300%+ effectiveness and 12 million damage hits. You are demanding this game to be changed to accomodate one or two organized groups because someone feels hurt about their dps.
And stop your patronizing, everyone here knows what effectivness means and how paingiver is calculated. This is exactly the kind of behavior that gets these threads closed.
Anyway, even if it was just a 5 million hit, substract that and you have the GF at the same general damage as all the other damage dealers.
Now just ask yourself how many groups in this game will ever have 300%+ effectiveness and 12 million damage hits. You are demanding this game to be changed to accomodate one or two organized groups because someone feels hurt about their dps.
And stop your patronizing, everyone here knows what effectivness means and how paingiver is calculated. This is exactly the kind of behavior that gets these threads closed.
@phoenix1021
So, you basically admitting that, without anvil, GF does the same damage as the rest right? That means, that without its hardest hitting encounter, its breaking even, which means that with it, GF is doing more. Now, GF self buffs may very well be the issue, but the point is, the GF has a block mechanic, 60%+ DR and that kind of dps, in addition to the capability of being able to throw out a decent ITF. That leads me to question, what can a CW do in addition to dps. Can a CW control sturff? No, you have to sacrifice a lot of dps to gain any noticeable control. Can a CW tank stuff? No and even if you built for it, you still cannot. Can a CW heal? Not enough for any group that requires a healer. Can a CW buff/debuff? Not whilst also doing dps.
The point is, the GF does not have to sacrifice a significant amount to fulfill more than 1 roll. True, a buff GF is more efficient at buffing than a dps and a protector is a better tank, but its by marginal amounts. Also, you forgetting 1 thing, the tr there, is fully BiS with R8 SH boons and a bonding pet, the GF, has R8 offensive enchantments, R10 SH boons and an augment. That is right, an augment. So with an augment, a GF is able to compete with other classes using bonding stones. Also, my CW is also running with R12s.
I agree videos and data have some legitimacy.....obviously
With that said:
13 years of doing trade show demos for Intel also gives me some insight on how I can make you see what I want given the correct environment to do so. Not accusing anyone...... but I take that video/data with a grain of salt
It does appear some of you are truly trying to represent the data as correctly as possible - thanks for that.
My only opinion being a mostly "newish" player is....... I hate seeing nerf bats as devs always take it too far, I would rather see fixes to other classes before nerfing one. Nerf my GF? Ok, I still got 5 other Chr's at 2.5+, but don't cry when no one wants to play it anymore
"I don't have the time"
"Pics are no real data"
"DPS specced tank should deal most dps"
"Nerf buffz"
All in all I'm just going to say LOL. Have a nice day.
The burst only wins because of all the buffs/debuffs. Go in there with paladins as support instead of clerics/guardians, have a fight that lasts a reasonable amount of time, then that data maybe can be used.
And to the sacrifice part; since everything dies in seconds in your groups, survivability is a moot point. Nothing will ever get to damage you.
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!