What I see is that DC and GF were moved into a different game where there really are no defined roles.
Wow, we agree at last. I never thought this moment would happen. *Selfie*!
Game changed. OPs can tank and heal (even without a permabubble). Life steal, power creep, mount buffs (that can heal) crazy busted bonding pets, dungeons replaced with heroics and other tankless content, etc etc.. GF & DC hit the employment lines, homey. We got a DC in this thread right now, agreeing with me. I bet they don't even have GF toon.
And to a certain extent, CWs are also in the same boat. Who cares about control in PvE anymore?
DPS,DPS,DPS. It's the currency in this game now. Without it, you don't really serve much purpose unless you want to spend 90% of your time in this game begging in Protector's Enclave LFG chat to be taken along on a 8 minute burn fest.
The other classes have been locked into strict roles and continue to be nerfed accordingly. It is not fair or balanced. The main examples of this are the Divine Judgment nerf, the GWF temp HP nerf, and the Storm Spell nerf.
But lets be fair here! DPS roles locked into the DPS roles... DPS roles are the most desired by far! Even before content got dumbed down to a DPS burn-fest, collect your 4k ad or salvage meat, rinse repeat. DPS was king.
That's like going up to rich kids and being like "Kids, since you're rich, I'm going to have to break it to you..you're going to be locked in to remaining rich, I'm so sorry *tiny tear*. *queue sad music*
To ask all GFs to remain nothing more then agro-pets and buff-bots for your personal reasons in a game that is obviously moving way from 5-man dungeon play is ridiculous. So yeah, roles are going out the door. It's just easier and cheaper to develop content like that. I didn't ask for it. I was one of the zillion folks asking for dungeons back.
You're precious temp hps. I don't ask for that nerf. And who did? I don't remember that thread. Can you post that here? A thread saying that GWF tmp hit points is destroying this game. If I had a magic wand, I'd give them back to you defiantone. Because it's pretty obvious you're scorned about it. But killing my (and many many others') toon, that I have worked my butt off for since Mod 2, won't get that back for you, man. I'm sorry. You make a thread asking for GWF tmp HP to return. I'll be there backing you up. I got a GWF, and doing dailies sucks with him now. I had to replace a stone with a friggin angle of protection. I get it.
@deathbeez all I wanted from this thread was to raise awareness to the fact that the issue existed and then have GFs (who know their class better than I do) to identify the root cause of the issue and then come up with a reasonable solution.
Sure, I get that. I mean, I wish you hadn't But eventually cheese-ball tactics always come to the surface and get FoTM status. Sad it had to happen because it's going to ruin it for honest players when the nuclear nerf bomb strikes.
If you ever see a GF's ACT log have weapon master's strike and crushing surge at the same time, and missing tide of iron (that's a GF's best party-wide debuff), cheese is about to ensue. Or they're actually trying to get paingiver and/or somone else is doing the buff/debuff for them.
Honesty, when I saw the dev's buff GF at-wills in the balance changes thread, I knew a nerf was coming. So I think there is already a game-plan for the devs, and we just spent over a week bickering at each other and they won't read a word of it. When have they listened to feedback lately, and why would they weed through 400 flames to find it now?
This game is hurt. Mod 6 was like garlic to a vampire. We need to think about the bigger picture when asking for balancing. Can this game afford to lose more players? You can't just switch toons anymore when it takes 55 million refinement points in artifact gear alone to be end-game. Esp with the skill node nerf. Almost everything is BoP now so you can't transfer most of your stuff. It's not an option except for real whales. So if the Conq GF class dies, I'm going with it. I can't tolerate rebuilding 2 years worth of work. And I bet I'm not the only one. What fun is being DPS king in a game that is dead. Or everyone being the same class/build? I've seen both happen in different games. Think bigger before hitting 'Enter.'
0
arandompandaMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 107Arc User
I have an idea. I am a GF-main player but agree Intro the Frey has gotten overpowered in PvE and PvP. It's abused in PvP by Conqueror GFs but still very much needed by GF Tactician tanks (that don't PvP.)
Tact GFs have a feat far up in the tree that makes ITF do 1/2/3/4/5% dmg.
Inspiring Leader: "Into The Fray increases the damage dealt by party members by 1/2/3/4/5% "
How about this: Cap ITF globally and no longer have it related to DR. Rank 1:20% Rank 2:10% Rank 3:10% Rank 4:10% 50% max.
Anything less and a GF conq (me included) won't slot it.
Now modify Inspiring Leader to do 5/5/5/5/5% instead of 1/1/1/1/1% more damage. So Tactician GFs will have a max ITF damage of 75% which is close to where is it now, slightly lower sure but not useless by far!
And PvP GFs will only get a 50% DPS boost instead of 80% or higher in both PvP & PvE. Does that seem far?
In module 5, people were all arguing for the nerfing of CW, because CW was able to fill more than 1 roll at the same time. By the same argument, GF should be balanced, because it can fill more than 1 role at once.
Yes, but people all call for nerfs on everything that isn't their class without properly thinking things through. Two wrongs don't make a right. The CW should be rebalanced, not the GF.
So to sum up Renegade CWs also have 3 roles in parties. Striker, Controller and Healer. Should Renegade CWs lose their capstone ability to heal? According to the logic used in this thread - yes. Healing is not part of what CWs are supposed to do so Chaotic Growth needs to be removed. I'd be ok with that even though my CW is renegade. It would go a way toward making healadins and healing DCs more necessary.
If the content was in any way difficult, would the CW still heal enough to keep people alive?
DCs and Healadins also offer way more than just healing. There are some serious buffs rolling out of those classes.
GWFs and CWs have been nerfed so many times that it would be hard to count. We did not rage-quit, we moved on and adapted.
Join the party. The exact same can be said for DC. But that's not something to brag about. I don't wish classes had any kind of nerf hammer at them but there's too little time and testing at Cryptic to fully test things before their obligations make them roll things out to Live. CW had plenty of mods where they were DPS kings. DCs had 1. Plenty of CW moved on to other classes. Some did rage-quit. It happens.
I'm wary of the proposed CW class rework the devs have going. I suspect this board's Nerf GF DPS agitprop will be completely moot once CW get their re-work. Once again CW will be dps kings and all of a sudden everyone who has a GWF or some other dpser will unslot their rank 10-12, haul out their CW and dominate both PvP and PvE.
The circular firing squad will begin all over again. Welcome to the never ending story. That cartoon Deathbeez posted was funny because it's true about NW too.
In any case the real argument in this thread is mostly about game design philosophy. Specifically class design philosophy. I've seen similar arguments on D&D tabletop sites. The whole insistence that you can't be a tank and high dps at the same time. As I recall, D&D has a long history of allowing dual and triple classing. In allowing for a high DPS tank you all do realize that's completely in line with D&D game design history, right?
It will make a game that already has a less D&D feel than DDO become that much less so if the agitprop to neuter class roleplay diversity succeeds. Forum agitprop already succeeded in neutering GWF Sentinel as a wanted GWF in teams. I sure do like my Sentinel. Wish she was needed again but as it now stands...nope.
DCs and Healadins also offer way more than just healing. There are some serious buffs rolling out of those classes.
Not if you prefer to play a striker DC only and choose encounters that don't party buff. It's easy. Slot Daunting Light, Chains of Blazing Light and Searing Light [notice how that encounter load-out (strike/cc strike/heal strike) almost mimics the roleplay diversity of Renegade CW who provide the same strike/cc strike/cc heal strike (when the capstone procs) abilities to parties - CW can even provide party buffs if the right feats are chosen].
Next go for personal dps-boosting feats in the Righteous tree. You provide no party buffs but your own personal dps is quite good. I've never had anyone complain in any parties I was in. My dps is comparable to most Renegade CW of similar IL.
So having been on the side that has been nerfed so many times how can you call joining the nerf them team adapting ?? Seems rather self defeating in the end. For me the GF is the only class in this game with more than one way to go about playing them. Have seen this on all the other class I play. Rather than trying to go after any other class we would all be better served if you might in fact focus on the other things that would allow your own class to be more. So that all three skill paths have a reason to be. The only time I have ever been in support of a hate to even say it nerf is when it was spoven to be a perma item. And even then I have felt that something else of worth should be given to them to keep that skill path an option.Trying to make every class into a one trick poney is not a very good option. I have even had a very good time tanking with my TR and we can all recall the all CW teams that used to run around this game. Focus on the things that build us all up and stop trying to fall into the mind set that only wants to tear us all down. Doing that will only come home to hurt your own in the end.Which I why I always try and support all the other clesses in this game. The better they are the better we all can be. There is nothing that has ever been written that says you cant balance a game with buffs rather than nerfs that send people walking toward the door.
Now this is what I see the vast majority of the time. Now you can try to attack with some superiority-positon or straw-man rhetoric all you please, but I'm only going by what I see [often]. And this picture represents that very well, hence why I took the screenshot (end edited it)
Pug run in Kessel.
The GWF with an item-level literally less then a thousand then the CW dominates the DPS. Totally fair right? K.. Almost twice as much DPS as the CW. In my experience, they usually do better then this, but almost always come in after the GWFs and rarely win.
I get #3 which is pretty normal (shrug) Hardly the top DPS class LOL even though I'm the 2nd best equipped and I got a pet with rank 12s.
The Tricker rogue is 2.5k item level. Maybe[probably] an alt. Tied almost with the heal cleric. TRs in the runs I do usually come just above the DC unless they have an il 3.5k+, then they do better and get 2nd. I can't remember the last time I saw a TR win paingiver.
That picture describes what I see in most of my PUG runs. About 85'ish % of the time.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Now this is what I see the vast majority of the time. Now you can try to attack with some superiority-positon or straw-man rhetoric all you please, but I'm only going by what I see [often]. And this picture represents that very well, hence why I took the screenshot (end edited it)
Pug run in Kessel.
The GWF with an item-level literally less then a thousand then the CW dominates the DPS. Totally fair right? K.. Almost twice as much DPS as the CW. In my experience, they usually do better then this, but almost always come in after the GWFs and rarely win.
I get #3 which is pretty normal (shrug) Hardly the top DPS class LOL even though I'm the 2nd best equipped and I got a pet with rank 12s.
The Tricker rogue is 2.5k item level. Maybe[probably] an alt. Tied almost with the heal cleric. TRs in the runs I do usually come just above the DC unless they have an il 3.5k+, then they do better and get 2nd. I can't remember the last time I saw a TR win paingiver.
That picture describes what I see in most of my PUG runs. About 85'ish % of the time.
@deathbeez you welcome to run with me, if you want to see what I am used to encountering.
No data,just an ACT from a edemo,where single encounter powers,rull and massive buff/debuffs value the most,the one that will hit first.
4 people posting again and again,asking for nerfs.
3 out of the 4 have not a GF.
one proclaimed expert that I inspected him today and he had unslotted all his gear enchants except weapon enchantement. But yeah GF is his main class lol.
One guy,Sharpedge that seeks "balance" yet never mentioned how much he likes bonding stones and the multiprocs.
general speaking,yeah,using a melee fast attack companion ,which on death ,resets stacks ,of 3 different ranks bonding stones.balanced!!!
20-30k extra power from one companion but -hey!-there is not a problem.Since it works for us it is fine.
DPS GFs threaten our DPS reign!!!Burn them!!!
lol
----------------------------------------
"The small Gf community,will not be able to protect its class for ever" ->Sharpedge pm "Let the nerf crusade,begin!" ->Sharpedge pm
Yes, but people all call for nerfs on everything that isn't their class without properly thinking things through. Two wrongs don't make a right. The CW should be rebalanced, not the GF.
Competely yes. There is so much emotion in threads like this. And I've seen nerf threads before, but not with energy like this. This is been going on in multiple forums, in multiple threads, and in post after post, since last week. Even if they're deleted, more spring up. But it's really the same 3 guys over and over. There is a very strong emotional war being waged here. And I don't think balance is at the heart of it.
no one is goin to kill the GF, class balancing = healthy game.
I think you're agenda and defiantone99 is more about regaining maximum superiority. I've only seen a couple non-GFs in this thread come at this issue logically and analytically. Sharpedge(cw) is one of them.
GWFs and CWs have been nerfed so many times that it would be hard to count. We did not rage-quit, we moved on and adapted.
It was the prone nerf I assume. GFs got it too. GF's got a nerf to a lunging at-will (because of PvP) and a prone skill (also because of PvP). Both are Iron Vangaurd that I don't use anymore, but I was like, thanks PvP crybabies! I assume that was the same time GWFs got their prone nerf. And the temp hitpoints thing recently. That's all I rememeber. What were the others?
I don't think comparing the nerfs that hit the GWF and the CW should stay in the same category. CW got some heavy GD setbacks. I think GWF are still riding on top of the world as far as I'm concerned.
Now this is what I see the vast majority of the time. Now you can try to attack with some superiority-positon or straw-man rhetoric all you please, but I'm only going by what I see [often]. And this picture represents that very well, hence why I took the screenshot (end edited it)
Pug run in Kessel.
The GWF with an item-level literally less then a thousand then the CW dominates the DPS. Totally fair right? K.. Almost twice as much DPS as the CW. In my experience, they usually do better then this, but almost always come in after the GWFs and rarely win.
I get #3 which is pretty normal (shrug) Hardly the top DPS class LOL even though I'm the 2nd best equipped and I got a pet with rank 12s.
The Tricker rogue is 2.5k item level. Maybe[probably] an alt. Tied almost with the heal cleric. TRs in the runs I do usually come just above the DC unless they have an il 3.5k+, then they do better and get 2nd. I can't remember the last time I saw a TR win paingiver.
That picture describes what I see in most of my PUG runs. About 85'ish % of the time.
CW at BiS level with right build melt things, have you met guy called Maggot or something like that? He outdps even BiS SM GWFs or Fernu. Pug CW is just typical controller which is their main role. Dont forget peple rush, and GWF who sprint to mobs get them 1st. CW shouldnt win vs pure striker, thats right.
Kessel is bad example, mobs can be melted fast. And you are GF. Come at zerg and watch some geared conq GFs pulling anvils 5kk+.
TR isnt that bad, but need gear and specific build. Most go sabo for pvp. I have outdps some 3k TR (legendaries n sh*t) while pugging todg (twice) on my 2.5k righteous DC, tho she has HP set (but debuff is worldwide). I know some good PvE TRs but they are rare. Most just wannabe assassin in PvP. Dont forget people who rarely play class may have less exp or just bad day. Not all care about paingiver chart tho.
About GF
Sure it need some rework but not to put them in corner. Fair nerf to ITF buff - 80% hard cap as real dr vs monster's dmg. This wont hurt pvp gfs who have their dr somewhere at 40-50% maybe but not allow pve tacticians overbuff their parties (140%+ buff with bondings for example). KC - 25% dmg bonus for target above 50% HP, 50% bonus for target under 50%. No more one-shot on Rinbo. Still 50% more damage taken - thats fair if you count they can shield alot dmg. Bull charge - not sure, maybe smaller range? Stun with all those elvens around is like nothing. Anvil - maybe 30-40% more dmg vs target under 40% HP. Well, people avoid anvil with jumping already. Conq and prot cap stones should be swapped. Conq should hit for bonus dmg, prot should being damaged for his bonus.
Also some things that get repeatedly said and accepted as common truth,they are not.
CW didn't got nerfed.It got rebalanced.Basically it was CW domination mainly as long and GWF that led to mod6 increase cap level. In history of Nw ,CW reigns supreme,it was always the best class in pve and one of the most in pvp. These two classes ,through false fedback,have got buffed so much ,that had made the content irrelevant.
But since they are the most noumerous and bring cash,Cryptic floowed their "suggestions".
Some of the CW "suggestions":
Storm Spell buff prior to mod3.(A passive proc doing 40% of their damage untill their righteous fix one mod ago?) Assailant Icy veins and chill stacks going through Gf shield (mod4 release)
Some of the GWF "suggestions"
Mod6 release; "We are too sqishy"!! yah we all were caue of the arp pen bug of the mobs. But GWfs cried so hard,that got buffed nearly to the level of mod2/3 beasts.
temp hps stacking,destro capstone activationg through TAKING(lol) nad giving damage.Extra 30% Dr to destro through unstop. Sprint gives another Dr layer..lol Hidden daggers..trolol....40% damage for 8 secs every 8 secs.three charges.. ha ha ...
-----------------------------
now we have 4 (four) people ,1 CW and 2 GWFs and one CW/GWf asking Gf to be nerfed..Why???
I know anvil of doom dealt > 400k (unmitigated) in PVP in mod 8, if target is<40%...somewhere has to be a bug</p>
1.48min , 5,319 dmg anvil. And he was in VM.he had +20% dmg
2.06 min,bullcharge,3800dmg. .........
And it seems like a bug.But to claim that this happens every day?Something is not right there.maybe the devs should lookm into this
After this hit,his damage is way to low.he hits non deflect for 1500 damage anvil at 4.00 min.maybe you should forward this to bug section?
5.21 ,19711 anvil to proned and target below 40% threshold.overall I ll say its damage is low.
But the 1m hit worries me.
I can't see more,it is boring ,i am honest here.But i have my thoughts ,and i cannot tell them in public.if you want pm me and i ll tell you what i believe.
--------------
overall his damage for a famous pvp toon with Gh20 boons is really low.Really low.Except that mega hit.out of nowhere. Not normal and I think this video should be adressed to ehm..bug section.
It is. But the mods want to leave it open... I did give some ideas and considerations a couple pages back, but it de-evolved back to arguing and whining.
One guy,Sharpedge that seeks "balance" yet never mentioned how much he likes bonding stones and the multiprocs.
It's because 'balance' is like 'right vs wrong'. Everyone has a different take on it. Add in emotional stock into an issue, then your chances of finding the target of balance, even the size of Texas, fly out the window. No consensus is going to happen. We all get this right? Nod your heads now. We are in Manchester vs Armory, Ford vs Chevvy, Colts vs Broncos mode here. In the end, not a single one of us gets a vote. And I strongly think the decision has already been made.
I can agree that the PvP concern is about balance: It really is player vs player and 1-hit concerns should be addressed for fairness. But PvP is so broke already, I can't really comment on any of it. I consider PvP in this game a banned word.
But the PvE paintaker DPS, epeen, complaining thing I feel more is about what people think is fair, then finding balance. "I got nerfed so you get should get nerfed too!" mentality. I have a really hard time hearing this from GWFs. CWs got a point.
I think the bonding reset bug to get 600% pet stats is rediculous, but in the end, it always rolls back to 'buff me, nerf them.' Like lostmouth, if it's widely used, it's not a bug. Until it stops NWO from making $, then its time to call it a bug.
The lines are drawn on both sides of this based on investment. We have a stance or an agenda, or you wouldn't of stuck it out in these threads by now. This is more like a drinking game now and it's almost 3am. This phenomenon isn't original to NWO. No real progress has been made since the GF changes thread. I think the nerf crusade side is trying to win by keeping the noise going and hope the devs take notice (that in itself is funny) and open the nerf cannon and fire off a salvo.
now we have 4 (four) people ,1 CW and 2 GWFs and one CW/GWf asking Gf to be nerfed..Why???
epeen in the name of balance--Superiority. People will vehemently protect it. I am shocked though. PvE DPS competition is a waaay bigger part of the NWO culture then I ever thought.
I had no idea it was such an amazing motivator. It's like DPS classes use DPS to feed their starving family in the 3rd world and must protect it tooth and nail. You can tell who's on top and wants to stay on top. I inspected these guys. legandary orcy (didn't that set just come out LOL?). 3.7+ gear scores. They take this game ultra seriously. Well, the DPS part no doubt.
@deathbeez : Mind if you post a image of your stats and your rotation on that run? . Because you may find defending 11M damage run while using ITF, KV and AoD... Which, then, you are just disproving yourself.
I got a better game, chum. Lets pretend I wasn't even there. So how is it possible that the GWF with a gear score 1k less then the CW beat him in DPS but almost 100%. It's not rare. I see this stuff all the time. I never see GFs ruling in paingiver DPS. And I'm actually trying to do it
I saw it once... in a video, in a nerf thread, this week, and the video's purpose was clearly created to show a beastly DPS GF in extraordinary and rare circumstances, being buffed by another GF and using their own buffs for the purpose of the this lovely nerf crusade we see before us.
I suggest if we're going to spend so much time in here, we should get some better curtains. Maybe a lava lamp, right? Fresh.
Sure it need some rework but not to put them in corner. Fair nerf to ITF buff - 80% hard cap as real dr vs monster's dmg.
This wont hurt pvp gfs who have their dr somewhere at 40-50% maybe but not allow pve tacticians overbuff their parties (140%+ buff with bondings for example). KC - 25% dmg bonus for target above 50% HP, 50% bonus for target under 50%. No more one-shot on Rinbo. Still 50% more damage taken - thats fair if you count they can shield alot dmg. Bull charge - not sure, maybe smaller range? Stun with all those elvens around is like nothing. Anvil - maybe 30-40% more dmg vs target under 40% HP. Well, people avoid anvil with jumping already. Conq and prot cap stones should be swapped. Conq should hit for bonus dmg, prot should being damaged for his bonus.
I'd be fine with all that. Solid recommendations. And I"d be fine with more. I can't speak to the impact PvP GF would have with these changes.
Well, people avoid anvil with jumping already. LMFAO. I watched some of those staged 1-shot PvP videos. And I watch the GF cast buff after buff and buff, then wheel of elements. I was thinking after all that broadcasting, you can't figure out a 100k bullcharge is coming your way in T-minus 1 second?
The knight's challenge cool down doesn't start till the skill wears off, unlike ITF where the cool down ticks while in action. Can you just not be in range for 7 seconds? I'd guess instead of tactics, its easier to whine for nerfs.
I wish GWF Sentinel was a viable option again in team play but too many people expect Destroyer instead.
Even if the GWF sentinel tree could tank, no one would care. It's all about DPS now. This may be why the GWF nerf lobbiest in this thread are pushing so hard to have service classes remain service classes. So they can go full 100% DPS and get heals and agro-mangement externally. Would be a strong motivator.
I actually agree with the OP and I'm a GF. But what i request is to fix things first before introducing a nerf. There are some things that work heavily for the gfs favor in terms of dealing damage, can we have a closer look at those mechanics first before anything else.
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
Also some things that get repeatedly said and accepted as common truth,they are not.
CW didn't got nerfed.It got rebalanced.Basically it was CW domination mainly as long and GWF that led to mod6 increase cap level. In history of Nw ,CW reigns supreme,it was always the best class in pve and one of the most in pvp. These two classes ,through false fedback,have got buffed so much ,that had made the content irrelevant.
But since they are the most noumerous and bring cash,Cryptic floowed their "suggestions".
Some of the CW "suggestions":
Storm Spell buff prior to mod3.(A passive proc doing 40% of their damage untill their righteous fix one mod ago?) Assailant Icy veins and chill stacks going through Gf shield (mod4 release)
Some of the GWF "suggestions"
Mod6 release; "We are too sqishy"!! yah we all were caue of the arp pen bug of the mobs. But GWfs cried so hard,that got buffed nearly to the level of mod2/3 beasts.
temp hps stacking,destro capstone activationg through TAKING(lol) nad giving damage.Extra 30% Dr to destro through unstop. Sprint gives another Dr layer..lol Hidden daggers..trolol....40% damage for 8 secs every 8 secs.three charges.. ha ha ...
-----------------------------
now we have 4 (four) people ,1 CW and 2 GWFs and one CW/GWf asking Gf to be nerfed..Why???
People keep saying this HAMSTER about CW but they seem to forget that we're nearly in mod 10 at this point and it's been a long time since CW has been anything but 2nd/third tier DPS. Also in case you were unaware SS has been doing ~1/3 of a SS CWs damage anyways.
@deathbeez : Mind if you post a image of your stats and your rotation on that run? . Because you may find defending 11M damage run while using ITF, KV and AoD... Which, then, you are just disproving yourself.
I got a better game, chum. Lets pretend I wasn't even there. So how is it possible that the GWF with a gear score 1k less then the CW beat him in DPS but almost 100%. It's not rare. I see this stuff all the time. I never see GFs ruling in paingiver DPS. And I'm actually trying to do it
I saw it once... in a video, in a nerf thread, this week, and the video's purpose was clearly created to show a beastly DPS GF in extraordinary and rare circumstances, being buffed by another GF and using their own buffs for the purpose of the this lovely nerf crusade we see before us.
I suggest if we're going to spend so much time in here, we should get some better curtains. Maybe a lava lamp, right? Fresh.
If he was running low rank enchants in def slots, no utility enchants, had level 139 artifacts etc. etc. he could have pretty similar offensive stats and then GWFs still outDPS CWs anyways. Then have the CW be MoF and it's not even a contest.
If he was running low rank enchants in def slots, no utility enchants, had level 139 artifacts etc. etc. he could have pretty similar offensive stats and then GWFs still outDPS CWs anyways. Then have the CW be MoF and it's not even a contest.
Wasn't the case. I've never seen players with 3.6+ item level just forgot to put something, anythin in empty slots. They did have some 9 in the utils, defs were 10s and up. Had some 11s in the off slots.
Comments
Game changed. OPs can tank and heal (even without a permabubble). Life steal, power creep, mount buffs (that can heal) crazy busted bonding pets, dungeons replaced with heroics and other tankless content, etc etc..
GF & DC hit the employment lines, homey.
We got a DC in this thread right now, agreeing with me. I bet they don't even have GF toon.
And to a certain extent, CWs are also in the same boat. Who cares about control in PvE anymore?
DPS,DPS,DPS. It's the currency in this game now. Without it, you don't really serve much purpose unless you want to spend 90% of your time in this game begging in Protector's Enclave LFG chat to be taken along on a 8 minute burn fest.
But lets be fair here! DPS roles locked into the DPS roles... DPS roles are the most desired by far!
Even before content got dumbed down to a DPS burn-fest, collect your 4k ad or salvage meat, rinse repeat. DPS was king.
That's like going up to rich kids and being like "Kids, since you're rich, I'm going to have to break it to you..you're going to be locked in to remaining rich, I'm so sorry *tiny tear*. *queue sad music*
To ask all GFs to remain nothing more then agro-pets and buff-bots for your personal reasons in a game that is obviously moving way from 5-man dungeon play is ridiculous. So yeah, roles are going out the door. It's just easier and cheaper to develop content like that. I didn't ask for it. I was one of the zillion folks asking for dungeons back.
You're precious temp hps. I don't ask for that nerf. And who did? I don't remember that thread. Can you post that here? A thread saying that GWF tmp hit points is destroying this game. If I had a magic wand, I'd give them back to you defiantone. Because it's pretty obvious you're scorned about it. But killing my (and many many others') toon, that I have worked my butt off for since Mod 2, won't get that back for you, man. I'm sorry. You make a thread asking for GWF tmp HP to return. I'll be there backing you up. I got a GWF, and doing dailies sucks with him now. I had to replace a stone with a friggin angle of protection. I get it.
But eventually cheese-ball tactics always come to the surface and get FoTM status. Sad it had to happen because it's going to ruin it for honest players when the nuclear nerf bomb strikes.
If you ever see a GF's ACT log have weapon master's strike and crushing surge at the same time, and missing tide of iron (that's a GF's best party-wide debuff), cheese is about to ensue. Or they're actually trying to get paingiver and/or somone else is doing the buff/debuff for them.
So I think there is already a game-plan for the devs, and we just spent over a week bickering at each other and they won't read a word of it. When have they listened to feedback lately, and why would they weed through 400 flames to find it now?
This game is hurt. Mod 6 was like garlic to a vampire. We need to think about the bigger picture when asking for balancing. Can this game afford to lose more players?
You can't just switch toons anymore when it takes 55 million refinement points in artifact gear alone to be end-game. Esp with the skill node nerf. Almost everything is BoP now so you can't transfer most of your stuff. It's not an option except for real whales. So if the Conq GF class dies, I'm going with it. I can't tolerate rebuilding 2 years worth of work. And I bet I'm not the only one.
What fun is being DPS king in a game that is dead. Or everyone being the same class/build? I've seen both happen in different games.
Think bigger before hitting 'Enter.'
DCs and Healadins also offer way more than just healing. There are some serious buffs rolling out of those classes.
I'm wary of the proposed CW class rework the devs have going. I suspect this board's Nerf GF DPS agitprop will be completely moot once CW get their re-work. Once again CW will be dps kings and all of a sudden everyone who has a GWF or some other dpser will unslot their rank 10-12, haul out their CW and dominate both PvP and PvE.
The circular firing squad will begin all over again. Welcome to the never ending story. That cartoon Deathbeez posted was funny because it's true about NW too.
In any case the real argument in this thread is mostly about game design philosophy. Specifically class design philosophy. I've seen similar arguments on D&D tabletop sites. The whole insistence that you can't be a tank and high dps at the same time. As I recall, D&D has a long history of allowing dual and triple classing. In allowing for a high DPS tank you all do realize that's completely in line with D&D game design history, right?
It will make a game that already has a less D&D feel than DDO become that much less so if the agitprop to neuter class roleplay diversity succeeds. Forum agitprop already succeeded in neutering GWF Sentinel as a wanted GWF in teams. I sure do like my Sentinel. Wish she was needed again but as it now stands...nope.
Next go for personal dps-boosting feats in the Righteous tree. You provide no party buffs but your own personal dps is quite good. I've never had anyone complain in any parties I was in. My dps is comparable to most Renegade CW of similar IL.
Now you can try to attack with some superiority-positon or straw-man rhetoric all you please, but I'm only going by what I see [often].
And this picture represents that very well, hence why I took the screenshot (end edited it)
Pug run in Kessel.
The GWF with an item-level literally less then a thousand then the CW dominates the DPS. Totally fair right? K..
Almost twice as much DPS as the CW. In my experience, they usually do better then this, but almost always come in after the GWFs and rarely win.
I get #3 which is pretty normal (shrug) Hardly the top DPS class LOL even though I'm the 2nd best equipped and I got a pet with rank 12s.
The Tricker rogue is 2.5k item level. Maybe[probably] an alt. Tied almost with the heal cleric.
TRs in the runs I do usually come just above the DC unless they have an il 3.5k+, then they do better and get 2nd. I can't remember the last time I saw a TR win paingiver.
That picture describes what I see in most of my PUG runs. About 85'ish % of the time.
No data,just an ACT from a edemo,where single encounter powers,rull and massive buff/debuffs value the most,the one that will hit first.
4 people posting again and again,asking for nerfs.
3 out of the 4 have not a GF.
one proclaimed expert that I inspected him today and he had unslotted all his gear enchants except weapon enchantement.
But yeah GF is his main class lol.
One guy,Sharpedge that seeks "balance" yet never mentioned how much he likes bonding stones and the multiprocs.
general speaking,yeah,using a melee fast attack companion ,which on death ,resets stacks ,of 3 different ranks bonding stones.balanced!!!
20-30k extra power from one companion but -hey!-there is not a problem.Since it works for us it is fine.
DPS GFs threaten our DPS reign!!!Burn them!!!
lol
----------------------------------------
"The small Gf community,will not be able to protect its class for ever" ->Sharpedge pm
"Let the nerf crusade,begin!" ->Sharpedge pm
There is so much emotion in threads like this. And I've seen nerf threads before, but not with energy like this.
This is been going on in multiple forums, in multiple threads, and in post after post, since last week. Even if they're deleted, more spring up. But it's really the same 3 guys over and over.
There is a very strong emotional war being waged here. And I don't think balance is at the heart of it. I think you're agenda and defiantone99 is more about regaining maximum superiority.
I've only seen a couple non-GFs in this thread come at this issue logically and analytically.
Sharpedge(cw) is one of them.
It was the prone nerf I assume. GFs got it too.
GF's got a nerf to a lunging at-will (because of PvP) and a prone skill (also because of PvP).
Both are Iron Vangaurd that I don't use anymore, but I was like, thanks PvP crybabies!
I assume that was the same time GWFs got their prone nerf.
And the temp hitpoints thing recently. That's all I rememeber. What were the others?
I don't think comparing the nerfs that hit the GWF and the CW should stay in the same category.
CW got some heavy GD setbacks. I think GWF are still riding on top of the world as far as I'm concerned.
Kessel is bad example, mobs can be melted fast. And you are GF. Come at zerg and watch some geared conq GFs pulling anvils 5kk+.
TR isnt that bad, but need gear and specific build. Most go sabo for pvp. I have outdps some 3k TR (legendaries n sh*t) while pugging todg (twice) on my 2.5k righteous DC, tho she has HP set (but debuff is worldwide). I know some good PvE TRs but they are rare. Most just wannabe assassin in PvP. Dont forget people who rarely play class may have less exp or just bad day. Not all care about paingiver chart tho.
About GF
Sure it need some rework but not to put them in corner. Fair nerf to ITF buff - 80% hard cap as real dr vs monster's dmg. This wont hurt pvp gfs who have their dr somewhere at 40-50% maybe but not allow pve tacticians overbuff their parties (140%+ buff with bondings for example).
KC - 25% dmg bonus for target above 50% HP, 50% bonus for target under 50%. No more one-shot on Rinbo. Still 50% more damage taken - thats fair if you count they can shield alot dmg.
Bull charge - not sure, maybe smaller range? Stun with all those elvens around is like nothing.
Anvil - maybe 30-40% more dmg vs target under 40% HP. Well, people avoid anvil with jumping already.
Conq and prot cap stones should be swapped. Conq should hit for bonus dmg, prot should being damaged for his bonus.
I know anvil of doom dealt > 400k (unmitigated) in PVP in mod 8, if target is<40%...somewhere has to be a bug
Also some things that get repeatedly said and accepted as common truth,they are not.
CW didn't got nerfed.It got rebalanced.Basically it was CW domination mainly as long and GWF that led to mod6 increase cap level.
In history of Nw ,CW reigns supreme,it was always the best class in pve and one of the most in pvp.
These two classes ,through false fedback,have got buffed so much ,that had made the content irrelevant.
But since they are the most noumerous and bring cash,Cryptic floowed their "suggestions".
Some of the CW "suggestions":
Storm Spell buff prior to mod3.(A passive proc doing 40% of their damage untill their righteous fix one mod ago?)
Assailant
Icy veins and chill stacks going through Gf shield (mod4 release)
Some of the GWF "suggestions"
Mod6 release;
"We are too sqishy"!! yah we all were caue of the arp pen bug of the mobs.
But GWfs cried so hard,that got buffed nearly to the level of mod2/3 beasts.
temp hps stacking,destro capstone activationg through TAKING(lol) nad giving damage.Extra 30% Dr to destro through unstop.
Sprint gives another Dr layer..lol
Hidden daggers..trolol....40% damage for 8 secs every 8 secs.three charges.. ha ha ...
-----------------------------
now we have 4 (four) people ,1 CW and 2 GWFs and one CW/GWf asking Gf to be nerfed..Why???
And he was in VM.he had +20% dmg
2.06 min,bullcharge,3800dmg. .........
And it seems like a bug.But to claim that this happens every day?Something is not right there.maybe the devs should lookm into this
After this hit,his damage is way to low.he hits non deflect for 1500 damage anvil at 4.00 min.maybe you should forward this to bug section?
5.21 ,19711 anvil to proned and target below 40% threshold.overall I ll say its damage is low.
But the 1m hit worries me.
I can't see more,it is boring ,i am honest here.But i have my thoughts ,and i cannot tell them in public.if you want pm me and i ll tell you what i believe.
--------------
overall his damage for a famous pvp toon with Gh20 boons is really low.Really low.Except that mega hit.out of nowhere.
Not normal and I think this video should be adressed to ehm..bug section.
I did give some ideas and considerations a couple pages back, but it de-evolved back to arguing and whining. It's because 'balance' is like 'right vs wrong'. Everyone has a different take on it.
Add in emotional stock into an issue, then your chances of finding the target of balance, even the size of Texas, fly out the window.
No consensus is going to happen. We all get this right? Nod your heads now.
We are in Manchester vs Armory, Ford vs Chevvy, Colts vs Broncos mode here. In the end, not a single one of us gets a vote. And I strongly think the decision has already been made.
I can agree that the PvP concern is about balance: It really is player vs player and 1-hit concerns should be addressed for fairness. But PvP is so broke already, I can't really comment on any of it. I consider PvP in this game a banned word.
But the PvE paintaker DPS, epeen, complaining thing I feel more is about what people think is fair, then finding balance.
"I got nerfed so you get should get nerfed too!" mentality. I have a really hard time hearing this from GWFs. CWs got a point.
I think the bonding reset bug to get 600% pet stats is rediculous, but in the end, it always rolls back to 'buff me, nerf them.'
Like lostmouth, if it's widely used, it's not a bug. Until it stops NWO from making $, then its time to call it a bug.
The lines are drawn on both sides of this based on investment. We have a stance or an agenda, or you wouldn't of stuck it out in these threads by now. This is more like a drinking game now and it's almost 3am. This phenomenon isn't original to NWO.
No real progress has been made since the GF changes thread. I think the nerf crusade side is trying to win by keeping the noise going and hope the devs take notice (that in itself is funny) and open the nerf cannon and fire off a salvo. epeen in the name of balance--Superiority. People will vehemently protect it. I am shocked though. PvE DPS competition is a waaay bigger part of the NWO culture then I ever thought.
I had no idea it was such an amazing motivator. It's like DPS classes use DPS to feed their starving family in the 3rd world and must protect it tooth and nail. You can tell who's on top and wants to stay on top. I inspected these guys. legandary orcy (didn't that set just come out LOL?). 3.7+ gear scores. They take this game ultra seriously. Well, the DPS part no doubt.
And where is all the other classes?
I don't have Knights Valor BTW.
Lets pretend I wasn't even there.
So how is it possible that the GWF with a gear score 1k less then the CW beat him in DPS but almost 100%.
It's not rare. I see this stuff all the time. I never see GFs ruling in paingiver DPS. And I'm actually trying to do it
I saw it once... in a video, in a nerf thread, this week, and the video's purpose was clearly created to show a beastly DPS GF in extraordinary and rare circumstances, being buffed by another GF and using their own buffs for the purpose of the this lovely nerf crusade we see before us.
I suggest if we're going to spend so much time in here, we should get some better curtains. Maybe a lava lamp, right? Fresh.
I can't speak to the impact PvP GF would have with these changes.
Well, people avoid anvil with jumping already.
LMFAO. I watched some of those staged 1-shot PvP videos. And I watch the GF cast buff after buff and buff, then wheel of elements. I was thinking after all that broadcasting, you can't figure out a 100k bullcharge is coming your way in T-minus 1 second?
The knight's challenge cool down doesn't start till the skill wears off, unlike ITF where the cool down ticks while in action.
Can you just not be in range for 7 seconds? I'd guess instead of tactics, its easier to whine for nerfs.
This may be why the GWF nerf lobbiest in this thread are pushing so hard to have service classes remain service classes. So they can go full 100% DPS and get heals and agro-mangement externally. Would be a strong motivator.
People keep saying this HAMSTER about CW but they seem to forget that we're nearly in mod 10 at this point and it's been a long time since CW has been anything but 2nd/third tier DPS. Also in case you were unaware SS has been doing ~1/3 of a SS CWs damage anyways. If he was running low rank enchants in def slots, no utility enchants, had level 139 artifacts etc. etc. he could have pretty similar offensive stats and then GWFs still outDPS CWs anyways. Then have the CW be MoF and it's not even a contest.
They did have some 9 in the utils, defs were 10s and up. Had some 11s in the off slots.