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Balance GFs in PvP/PvE
xsayajinx1
Member Posts: 1,936 Arc User
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmKzYn-li0Q&list=UU_G5_kUOK2Xfkplmsg1-MMg&index=4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E3em0qfwaMEdit: just to clarify things: First video is against a full specc'd PvP player with maximum Tenacity possible.
Second video as comparison is against a full PvE player without any Tenacity at all!
Helpful suggestions are needed to balance GFs in PvP. I know, this will also affect PvE play, so PvEers are welcome to throw in their opinions as well!
Keep it please contructive!!!
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/SaiyajinX
Post edited by xsayajinx1 on
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PVE is and has been slowly destroyed because of the PVP whiners. Im not saying the perma-bubble and its effects were a bit much, but the class is almost worthless now.
News flash, GF conquerors have always been strikers. The feat tree hasn't changed in a year or longer.
ITF needs a hard cap maybe 20 percent!? No GF will give up one of their 3 skill slots for 20%. There is better things to use and you will kill the buff the class is desired for most!! This nerf-crusade has flown past being reasonable.
Beside the dps, the AP gain is not great and the 400 temp hps you get is a joke.
KC should stay because it's a tanking skill also. The target does less dmg to everyone else *but* you.
What is the advantage here? Both do 2x dmg to each other. Completely remove a skill because you are too slow to react to it? Why not remove the GF class entirely? Why stop now? You've been on a roll for 2 weeks now.
AoD on a GF is fractionally as powerful as a GWF's IBS without being buffed with 7 different buffs.
I actually enjoy combat vs gf's that can kill me when I make a mistake. A game of chess is more enjoyable than a game of checkers right?
#noMoreNerfsPls
That is 1 of the top pve trs. The TR is a class thats primary rolls is dps, when you random queue as a tr, the game puts you into a party as a dps. This shows, that the devs intend for the class to be a dps. By the same token, when you queue as a GF, the game queues you in as a tank. This tells you, the devs intend for your primary roll to be support. So why is a class that doesn't even have dps as its secondary role doing more damage than a class that has dps as its primary? Furthermore, the tr is pretty much BiS and is using bondings, at the time, the GF had rank 8 enchants and an augment.
Here are the facts:
1) GF has primary role as support, this means, that a GF who builds for dps, should realistically do less damage than other dps classes building for dps. This means that at best, a dps gf should draw even with a CW.
2) Decent DPS GFs are doing more damage than primary DDs.
3) There are very few decent dps Conq GFs, which makes it hard to illustrate point 2. The fact that there are few of them, doesn't justify their existence though, as that is like saying, "there are only a few Mod edited out bad word. in the world, so they are not an issue and should not be addressed."They are so rare in fact, that in an entire instance of 25 gfs, there was only one:
4) Tactician and Protection do miserable dps, that means that if any balance changes are made to a GFs dps, they should be done carefully as to not harm either path, in fact, anything to make their soloing life slightly easier, would probably be appreciated.
Oh yeah, and for anyone here who wants to just say, "well you a bad CW and running with bad trs" come run some stuff with me and judge me in game, instead of just making assumptions on the forums.
Im not gonna call that an exploit but it is highly unusual.
As usual I am opposed and always have been opposed to any kind of nerf because I feel it is a direct ripoff to all players that work hard on perfecting their character.
Im usually disappointed sadly...
I am going to assume the majority of crits were from the feat "jagged blades" which is a conq specific feat.
Is your expectation that 3.7k CW (even with new GH 17 boons on ACT) should beat in DPS 3.3k GF (+ GH20 boons). Correct? I wonder how stats look in real comparison during fight.
PS. You removed link from your forum signature to your guide for Paladin, i liked it very much.
— (The unwritten rule)
On another note, I am somewhat at a loss with OP's running baby owlbears in oPvP and stacking crazy power, as soon as soon as they pop Burning Light it's all over whoever you are.
Nerfs end up disproportionately hurting the players who can least afford to take the nerf. The middling-dps-ers (read everyone below the top-tier spots in ACT or Paingiver). To the Pro-Nerf Cabal in this group - This is precisely why you are getting the response you are getting for your crusading. It is the middling GFs of all 3 trees whom will be hurt disprortionately if your agitprop is successful. All so you can target the few top-tier guys. So to get rid of the problem at the top - the middle to lower tier will suffer. Low-dps classes in a game that has relegated "support" skills to nice but not necessary is a way to increase the speed of the exodus of this game. Your usual answer is Play a Primary Striker instead if you want to be DPS but most people don't have the time or cash to gear up 2 mains as I have. Let alone 3 or more. The CWs here surprise me - as a class that has had this same scenario come at them and the resulting CW-player disgruntlement from it - I'm surprised you want to now visit this problem upon others.
Many CWs to this day are still upset at the result of the class-parity 'balancing' done to that class. As someone with a CW main myself I know the typical end-result for Dev 'balancing' is that the class becomes less fun to play.
What the Devs balance for is challenging play. Not necessarily for class parity vis-a-vis other classes. Oddly I think in a game like NW sometimes going for one - more challenge - ends up being a primary CAUSE of decreased class parity balance. You can't bring the Challenge AND Class Parity AND Roleplaying Diversity all at the same time. It's like asking the Government to adequately fund Military AND Social Programs AND Tax Cuts without the three ending up in ADDED NATIONAL DEBT. Address one end of the triangle and problems with the other 2 suddenly come to the fore. So they try to approximate but the triangle of competing goals always insures if you address one to the satisfaction of one faction (example:the Pro-Nerfers for Parity) then at least one of the other two game goals will HAMSTER off many others for whom the other 2 are more crucial for their own reason for continuing to play.
Case History: A lot of CWs dumped the game after the re-balancing. CWs that didn't do as much dps but whom remained ended up paying the 'cost' of the CWs who were the DPS kings that caused the uproar in the first place. SW class is almost non-existent for similar reasons. And entire feat tree was nerfed into the ground when Life Steal mechanic was changed to inject Challenge. It will be the same here with GF.
GFs aren't in this thread because most that I've played with don't even speak English. The most commonly used phrase I've seen from top-geared GFs is "Ajuda!". It seems most native-English speakers don't bother to play GF anymore. It was never a popular class even when the game launched. Once the Nerf-Crusaders have their way I suspect GF will be as scarce or even moreso than the nearly-dead SW class.
How 'fractionally' would it take for you to stop? I inspected you. You're gear is amazing.
Nice legendary Orcus set on a GWF. And you want nerfs because of how Freya does in edemo under incredibly rare circumstances. If you're not paingiver with the mega-bling your wearing on the best DPS class in the game.
Not sure I'd believe that. But I'm sure you'll continue to say that to push along your agenda.
All of your hyperfocusing on the ACT logs and who's wining DPS in this match and all that other garbage.
It's PvE, you're not even competing for anything but you have to be king honcho in a stat screen for 3 milli-seconds? It's sad.
It's sad that there is so many more like you and that speak volumes with what this game has left to offer. It's bleak.
Nit-picking and bickering over who did more damage in the same played-out content.
My God you take being king of the hill in PvE DPS insanely seriously!
I don't want my GF to be paingiver.
I want it to be functional and relevant in this new, streamlined, DPS wins all, control and tanking are 'so 3 mods ago,' game. Pushing this already-DPS-focused game into a fully DPS-focused game is smart. It's more simple[lazy but cheap] to design and people pay in f2p games for superiority. Everyone is merging towards the DPS path because that's all you need. Dungeons were dead 3 mods ago when they got stripped away into Cryptic's /dev/null time capsule. The vanillia team is dead. It's all burn ASAP, collect your 4k AD, then do it again.
DC's have an a functional DPS tree (Righteous) for a while now.
Here is a taste of the DPS they can do.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1215517/solo-orcus-righteous
I'm a 3.5k IL Conq GF and I have never seen numbers that high on this toon ever. And I'm spec'ed for power and crit. If you can block, you can't do DPS. But you can heal and buff, and DPS is ok? Come 'on..
So I think you and your new friends are being very narrow-focused with your nerf ray-gun here.
Freya in this instance is not the norm, not by a looong shot. You guys keep using the same biased video and with very limiting screenshots (only item level, not stats).
They're not having to do any buffing but being buffed themselves. By another GF!!
When do you ever see this in the wild? You got a buff class with functional DPS that's also being buffed and buffing themselves.
Of course they're going to go atomic. And comparing to a PvE Tr. Come on. Tr's PvE DPS has sucked for a long time now.
I can scarcely remember when they didn't suck. I've seen OPs beat a TR in paingiver, literally. You're using the worse DPS class to compare DPS to.
I have never seen another GF win paingiver EVER but me.
My girlfriend that plays this game a heck of alot more then I do, has never seen a GF win paingiver EVER but me.
Usually the GF I ever see win paingiver is ME, and I never win paingiver over CWs and GWFs with the same IL. Not unless they're chilling at the campfire.
And the GWFs crying for nerfs with your broken favored class. Shame on you! Funny how they're always missing from the videos, eh? 90% of the time, in my experience, it's GWF that are the paingiver. And I'm fine with that! I always was.
So I don't get the reverse hate coming in here from GWFs when their precious DPS stats are threatened by a freak-occurrence GF.
You guys are going to win this. You're more dedicated, more organized, and there is more of you.
Instead of thinking about the bigger impact, you're thinking of yourselves. Totally entitlement thinking.
Well my DPS class should do more DPS then your DPS class. All this nerf arguments are going to kill morale.
I'm already eye-balling that uninstall button. I've put too much time,$, and effort to role another class.
I have 0 confidence that NWO will fix this issue correctly. Holy heck, that was a big post.
This I can totally agree with! Indeed GWFs should have more diversity of viable play than they currently have. My GWF seldom gets played because she's a Sentinal - but since the game now rewards high-dpsers over relying upon fluff skills like healing she's seldom welcome in PUGs or even in guild runs.
And they lose to DPS comparisons to GFs wearing whites from the Nasher gang quest-line in Blacklake district.
And the fact most whales prefer the GWF class, well that's just a coincidence.
90% of the paingivers in the content I've run was GWFs ranging from 3k to 4k gear. I must of been seeing things. Cataracts I bet!
And the most Orcus soloed videos are GWFs.
According to this awesome-sauce thread, they're totally squishier then Rix if he was tossed into PvP against his will, wearing his berfday suit.
So those videos must be optical illusions....photo-shopped the video, that's it!
I'm convinced. GWFs, after having it so bad at the top, should be moved up even higher to demigod status.
- The perma-bubble should return to Neverwinter and be permanently attached to the posterior of all GWFs over level 4.
- GWF's should get a free extra, 4th encounter that involves lightning shooting from their eyes, and has no cooldown. In fact, it only comes in rapid fire mode.
- GWF's sprint should be increased in speed so far that it can now actually travel back in time and be able to high-five Marty McFly at will.
- Indomitable battle strike will get an additional additional AOE that involves contact with the surface causing critical mass, with a crit multiplier so high, Cryptic will have to staff interns 24/7 to reboot the severs every few hours because the sick DPS will make their CPUs overheat.
...cuz I think that's fair.About pvp, gimme a break, i could again suggest to take 20% dmg from gf encounters, but that wont change much with some top players, the problem is its top players, and even they still can be trashed by top cw in pvp, u just need to be good cw. Anyway, every change u make to gf dmg will heavily affect those poor folks at 2k IL trying to do they dailies. We have small community of GFs at it is, we dont need to drive them away even further, please HAMSTER off some cws, we dont need so many of them. Snoo running after his fotm like dog after heat is not helping either, but oh well, thats what u get when actually competent player takes a glance onto class.
The thing is, Buff GF /= PvP GF /= PvE DPS GF, those r 3 different viable build, or even more than 3. First one needs a cap at 80% imo, second one needs toned down overall but nothing than 30% dmg loss, third one should not be touched imo it works only when u have time for one rotation on pull or like 2 rotations on bosses. At best. U need top buffing party for that.
Just disclaimer, im first one.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
2) Just because you aren't able to do uber dps on gf, doesn't mean others aren't. I know a dps gf who landed a 48 mil anvil, thats higher than ibs ever has and will be.
3) Anyone who thinks tr does poor dps, has never played with a decent tr and should be quiet in this thread, since they showing how truly ignorant they are. Just because you don't know any decent trs, does not mean you should dismiss their existence. Also, don't base your judgements on pug groups, since most top end players hardly ever pug. To compare GWF to TR in full single class tiamat:
Some of the best GWFs I know were in the GWF run, but the best trs I know were not in the tr run. However, GWF and TR run look roughly even right?
4) When CW was the top dps in pve, they got nerfed, because they could do dps on top of doing everything else. GF should be balanced for the same reason. Unless of coarse you also feel that all the changes made to CW, should also be undone?
5) The best GF I know for dps and the best GWF I know for dps is the same person, kind of hard to get them both in the same instance to compare, right?
6) I am a CW and I have an issue with GF, not a GWF. Leave class stereotypes out of your arguments please, it lowers their quality and implies you are unable to argue constructively.
3. What are the significance of those videos to the argument, there are 25 people there with a mix of ilevel from 4k to 1700, some take it seriously others half occupied joking around ? These videos are irrelevant to any class balance discussion.
Bottom line, and even that is not a good comparison but can your best TR outdps the same best GWF in discussion ?
4. Ahh but can be this the issue here? not GWF, not GF, not TR, the issue is CWs. In PvE perspective lets assume that GF in a some specific non-tanking, non-buffing build is top single target dps. So what ? Lets flag that build (x points in y tree) as dps so the pug queue will be correct, wish them all the luck and lets get over with it.
If a GF can be build to trade of mobility and survivabilty for DPS, let them have it, same as DPS DC who can't heal anything.
The main thing to maintain balance is that specific build will indeed has the trade offs, and flagged correctly when grouping.
This will only help game diversity and players can spec into it when leveling and later shift to support if they want to.
Similarly to MoF / SS
The added videos and discussion (not OPs) are PvE so I reffer to PvE.
5. Extremely easy (with the variation we used to), the same way a person will compare 2 builds on the same char. You run with the same group (not same composition, but exactly the same group) several times to get a mean, swap and run again.