Wow. You need to tone this down a notch I think. While bots certainly are a vialation of the game's rules and I agree that most are damaging to the game, they are not "criminals", nor are they "stealing" anything. These terms are cleary defined and just don't apply here.
By selling in game assets which they do not own as per the Terms of Service (signed contract) they are in fact stealing.
Bot makers are not legally criminals (in most cases) but they are breaching the contract which is in fact illegal under any definition and by selling products they do not own as per the contract they are legally defined as stealing from the company. Breaches of contract are virtually always a civil case but make no mistake it is in fact "illegal," "stealing" and the bot makers can be sued for breaching the contract, theft of property and damages to business. Example.
You do not own ANYTHING in this game or virtually any MMO. Not your account. Not your name. Not your items. Nothing. You lease everything you have access to and have no legal right to sell it.
If you do the MMO company has the right to every penny you sell it for.
And this is not limited to just MMO's. Your iTunes, amazon or Google account have similar restrictions. Back in 2012 there was a false report that Bruce Willis was going to sue Apple due to the restrictions on transferring songs he purchased on iTunes. Now the rumor was debunked the next day by Willis but that is a grain of falsehood in the otherwise very real legally binding contracts you make with Apple, Amazon, Google, Microsoft...and every MMO.
@ambisinisterr the interesting question is how these laws actually behave in question, because whilst true, these things are illegal, but practically trying to enforce those laws isn't as easy as it sounds. For example, say the bot company exists somewhere in some country that America (or whatever country NWO is based in) doesn't have an extradition treaty with, that person may be breaking the terms of service, but good luck ever taking them to trial for it. The same is true for the terms of service for any game really, you don't know how binding they are, until the company actually tries to enforce them. Whilst I do agree that they should be legally binding and that people should not get away with breaking them, I imagine most of the time, for the company in question, it isn't worth the effort they would have to go to to actually have people punished for breaking those terms.
The real issue is, who polices the internet, it isn't governed by one country, it has no nationality and no borders, in many ways, the internet is ahead of its time.
Interesting but you are all forgetting one thing.You cant force your own law to other countries' citizens.I am not American so where can you sue me.I dont think my country have any virtual world laws yet.I mean I remember there was a dude who got hacked and robbed 2000$ worth of ingame items 3-4 years ago.He went to the police but police was also dumbfounded because there was no law for ingame items to be counted as owned property or something like that.Of course hacking is illegal but I dont think its punishment as harsh as robery.Also most of online gaming companies dont like dealing other governments than where they are founded because of issues like taxes or lawsuits.For example, I am not American and I accepted user aggrements so lets say I did something I was not supposed to, where do you plan to sue me.And according to whose law?
This is exactly what I am getting at.
Look at the bottom of the Terms of Service. There's usually a severability clause as well as a clause determining where and under what jurisdiction the contract is governed by. Any dispute (or claim) arising from said agreement is governed under the laws of the courts stated in that clause, regardless of where the claim originates.
For example, Section 31 (haha, for anyone that gets the Star Trek reference in this) of the ARC Terms of Service states:
Unless applicable mandatory law expressly dictates otherwise: - this Agreement is governed by and shall be construed and enforced under the laws of the Netherlands; - the applicability of the Vienna Sales Convention is expressly excluded; - Any action, dispute or proceeding instituted under this Agreement shall be brought before the competent court in Amsterdam, the Netherlands.
This would be an example of a jurisdiction clause. Unless the law of your country expressly states otherwise, any suit brought against ARC (and conversely, any suit ARC brings against a person) would be governed under Netherlands law and in a court of the Netherlands, regardless of the country in which the person resides.
Let me put it this way, as unlikely as it is, say there was someone out in Kazakhstan who played NWO and happened to run a botting company. Assuming ARC wanted to persecute him how would they apprehend him in the first place to hold him accountable. It is completely impractical. You can argue as much as you like that "these laws and contracts exist and are in place" but until a company actually tries to enforce them on someone living outside of their sphere of influence, there is nothing to support that they have any strength at all. Right underneath that bit you quoted is also:
31.4: If any provision of this Agreement shall be unlawful, void, or for any reason unenforceable, then that provision shall be deemed severable from this Agreement and shall not affect the validity and enforceability of any remaining provisions.
That is the important word, a legal agreement isn't worth much if you have no way to enforce it. Its the exact same thing as Edward Snowdan really, he has broken the laws of the USA and the USA would certainly like to get a hold of him, but unless they manage to convince the Russian Government to turn him over, there is no way they can hold him accountable.
callofkutuluMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 56Arc User
any way you look at it the bots were better for the player, 3k stacks of r5 is way better than 30k stacks. Same thing for the AD sellers if the ad was cheaper for the player via 3rd party then that is the problem. If cryptic really wants to win this than take the profit out of it for the botters/sellers.
Would the people who buy AD and use botted rp rather buy from cryptic than some shady 3rd party? My guess is yes, so make the zen market items equivalent then the botters don't have anything worth selling. You can still control the zen ad price with your coal wards / pwards, (price out of line currently too). It is all about value and cryptic isn't offering it.
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
@ambisinisterr the interesting question is how these laws actually behave in question, because whilst true, these things are illegal, but practically trying to enforce those laws isn't as easy as it sounds.
It is actually very easy to legally enforce the contract. Consider that the article I linked was originally denied a preliminary hearing which, as usual, leads me to assume the people in the court did not originally take the matter seriously simply based on the premise of the lawsuit. However contractual agreements are nothing new to laws, lawyers and even the most conservative (non-political party definition) of judges. The internet has become a Wild Wild West of sorts as this is a new medium but proving a violation of the contract is very straightforward.
The much larger issue is the practicality of going after individual people. Lawyers and travel expenses are expensive which is why MMO companies normally opt to just terminate the contract (discontinue service) to people on an individual basis when they breach the contract. It is not practical to file a lawsuit against every person but when one target is large enough to justify the expense put towards the lawsuit then it has been done in the past and will continue to be done in the future.
Interesting but you are all forgetting one thing.You cant force your own law to other countries' citizens.I am not American so where can you sue me.I dont think my country have any virtual world laws yet.I mean I remember there was a dude who got hacked and robbed 2000$ worth of ingame items 3-4 years ago.He went to the police but police was also dumbfounded because there was no law for ingame items to be counted as owned property or something like that.Of course hacking is illegal but I dont think its punishment as harsh as robery.Also most of online gaming companies dont like dealing other governments than where they are founded because of issues like taxes or lawsuits.For example, I am not American and I accepted user aggrements so lets say I did something I was not supposed to, where do you plan to sue me.And according to whose law?
As stated, contracts are nothing new to the world. They are as old as the legal system and every country has laws regarding them. So as Lew said in part, unless the terms of the contract are not legal in the country you are in then the contract would be legally binding regardless of where you or the company resided.
Jagex is a UK based company. The bot company they filed the suit against was in the United States and the actual Lawsuit took place within the United States.
The UN actually passed laws on the International Sale of Goods back in 1980 which may or may not apply based on the circumstances of the contract but as stated within that link there are virtually always going to be domestic laws which govern international contracts. You would have to contact a lawyer for full details if you are really that curious. All I can do is say that the belief that just because you live in another country means you are immune to legal ramifications when dealing with international companies is a fallacy.
Contracts are enforced domestically and internationally as long as they are legal within both countries.
There is no debate to be had on whether or not they can be enforced internationally. I had already proven they can be enforced internationally before you had even posted. The bigger question is whether or not it is worth the time, effort and money to enforce them other than by terminating the contract (banning the user) in which case the answer is: normally not.
@ambisinisterr the interesting question is how these laws actually behave in question, because whilst true, these things are illegal, but practically trying to enforce those laws isn't as easy as it sounds.
It is actually very easy to legally enforce the contract. Consider that the article I linked was originally denied a preliminary hearing which, as usual, leads me to assume the people in the court did not originally take the matter seriously simply based on the premise of the lawsuit. However contractual agreements are nothing new to laws, lawyers and even the most conservative (non-political party definition) of judges. The internet has become a Wild Wild West of sorts as this is a new medium but proving a violation of the contract is very straightforward.
The much larger issue is the practicality of going after individual people. Lawyers and travel expenses are expensive which is why MMO companies normally opt to just terminate the contract (discontinue service) to people on an individual basis when they breach the contract. It is not practical to file a lawsuit against every person but when one target is large enough to justify the expense put towards the lawsuit then it has been done in the past and will continue to be done in the future.
Interesting but you are all forgetting one thing.You cant force your own law to other countries' citizens.I am not American so where can you sue me.I dont think my country have any virtual world laws yet.I mean I remember there was a dude who got hacked and robbed 2000$ worth of ingame items 3-4 years ago.He went to the police but police was also dumbfounded because there was no law for ingame items to be counted as owned property or something like that.Of course hacking is illegal but I dont think its punishment as harsh as robery.Also most of online gaming companies dont like dealing other governments than where they are founded because of issues like taxes or lawsuits.For example, I am not American and I accepted user aggrements so lets say I did something I was not supposed to, where do you plan to sue me.And according to whose law?
As stated, contracts are nothing new to the world. They are as old as the legal system and every country has laws regarding them. So as Lew said in part, unless the terms of the contract are not legal in the country you are in then the contract would be legally binding regardless of where you or the company resided.
Jagex is a UK based company. The bot company they filed the suit against was in the United States and the actual Lawsuit took place within the United States.
The UN actually passed laws on the International Sale of Goods back in 1980 which may or may not apply based on the circumstances of the contract but as stated within that link there are virtually always going to be domestic laws which govern international contracts. You would have to contact a lawyer for full details if you are really that curious. All I can do is say that the belief that just because you live in another country means you are immune to legal ramifications when dealing with international companies is a fallacy.
Contracts are enforced domestically and internationally as long as they are legal within both countries.
There is no debate to be had on whether or not they can be enforced internationally. I had already proven they can be enforced internationally before you had even posted. The bigger question is whether or not it is worth the time, effort and money to enforce them other than by terminating the contract (banning the user) in which case the answer is: normally not.
I am not going to bother arguing this, because even though I can put up a strong rebuttal and even though I can point out the flaws in your argument, it isn't really worth the effort and at the end of the day, its a moot point. The result is still ban rather than legal action. If you do want to have this discussion, we can have it over voice chat or something, since it is interesting to discuss, but I don't feel like typing long walls of text to argue this.
There isn't a multiplayer game on the face of the planet which doesn't promote botting short of a pure PvP game.
There's NOTHING that any MMO can make which can't be botted other than PvP and boss fights. Even removing trade doesn't work as people will still bot to do whatever else. There will always be people looking to skip whatever tasks they have to do in order to advance in the game no matter how trivial it is unless it is not bottable to begin with.
Sorry magenubbie but you will not find a Dark Souls MMO and this game will not give up PvE. You are asking the impossible.
So long as the game is bottable...and it always will...there will always be bots as long as people are willing to pay them.
Take a look on sky forge, no botas there, reason: simple, no ah, no trade option, BUT, far more easy to get itens, not that stupid 1% chance we have here. Problem solved, also free access to all currencies, free exchange from credits(regular game currency) to paying currency
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
I am not going to bother arguing this, because even though I can put up a strong rebuttal and even though I can point out the flaws in your argument, it isn't really worth the effort and at the end of the day, its a moot point. The result is still ban rather than legal action. If you do want to have this discussion, we can have it over voice chat or something, since it is interesting to discuss, but I don't feel like typing long walls of text to argue this.
You are arguing something I am not disputing. The average person would simply be banned. I am not saying otherwise. I am saying that legally they have every right to sue you and would win but do not do so because it would cost more than they would receive in return.
There are rare cases (particularly with botting companies) that lawsuits have been filed they have been won because the contract is legally binding. There is no debating that. Your argument of the practicality of filing a lawsuit over every minor transgression is a completely different and irrelevant to the point I made which is that the terms of the contract define (indirectly) that selling or buying in game assets for out of game assets is stealing as you have no legal right to sell them.
No wall of text needed. You need only to not dispute something never stated to begin with. They have the right to sue. They would win the suit. But it would not be practical to sue everyone. Plain and simple.
Unless you are arguing something different and I am completely missing the point entirely in which do feel free to send me a PM.
Take a look on sky forge, no botas there, reason: simple, no ah, no trade option, BUT, far more easy to get itens, not that stupid 1% chance we have here. Problem solved, also free access to all currencies, free exchange from credits(regular game currency) to paying currency
A quick google search returned that players do bot the game much to the surprise of people who think people only bot to sell items. As I said those who would choose to buy from bots simply switch into being bots in games which prevent them from trading with others.
Less? It is hard to prove but I see no proof that it is less. Less complained about for sure but spam bots are annoying so logically people complain more about them.
In any case I am really not going to debate every other MMO on the face of the planet. I am willing to indulge in minor side references but naming a bunch of other games just to say "this game is PvP and people still bot" or "this game has no trade and people don't bot as much" is a line I am going to draw.
Games are not going to redesign from the ground up to combat bots. The only MMO's which are not botted at all are SOME (don't name the exceptions for the love of...) PvP Games or games with Dark Souls level boss fights as it's main source of progression. Games without free trade or games that have faster progression will always be botted until they cross the same line that people no longer feel a sense of progression which is a death sentence for an MMO as the sense of progression is the only way to keep players playing (and thus paying) for the service.
Stop naming MMO's. I am going to remove any names from this point forward unless my quick google search doesn't find complaints of botting. If you want to prove me wrong then please do so. Find a bot free MMO which isn't a PvP Game or a game which is Dark Souls caliber PvE and know that Neverwinter is not those games and asking for it to become that is not something that will be done.
The way I understand it, all content in a MMORPG is legally considered the property of the MMORPG operator. Also the content is not removable from the game.
So the can be no theft in the normal sense.
The users are just granted a right to use the property of the MMORP operator for their entertainment.
What the botters do however, is to disrupt the intended way of working in the product.
So I think this would have to be handled according to the laws used to combat hacking, DDOS and similar disruptive misconduct over the Internet. Most countries have laws that can be applied against that - they better have or they could get shut out from the Internet.
Another way to legally attack this would be contract law, since they are breaking the TOS, which is a legally binding contract between you and the MMORP operator. Again, most countries have laws to enforce contracts, or they would have major problems being part of the international business community.
But since the economic value of each case is so small, for all practical purposes the only thing the MMORPG operators can do is to shut the bad guys out from the game. It is just not worth it to pursue it further.
And since they generally cannot block IP addresses(because of huge dynamically assigned IP ranges for client access), all they really can do is to try to find and remove the bots as quickly as possible. And also change the game to make the effort required to bot and the fruits gained from it less so that in the end, the cost/benefit of botting goes away.
But since bots to a large extent can duplicate what players do, that probably would mean removing any tradeable goods from the game. Which would be bad for playability.
Maybe we should be required to fill out a CAPTCHA password each time we engage a mob?
Interesting trivia : Do tou know why pirate <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> sites exist in their extent: because the most visited ones are actually owned by the same company that holds the rights to the "pirated" content...
Makes you wonder if somehow this could be translated to MMOs like for example some gold selling site being actually owned by some MMO company - so it gets royalty free and developer free money that would else go to a third party from there....
Please fix Zhentarim Warlock companion's skill "Arcane Warping" to the originally intended "Arcane Boost" zhentarim-warlock-companion
The way I understand it, all content in a MMORPG is legally considered the property of the MMORPG operator. Also the content is not removable from the game.
Dungeons was removed and R.I.P. now to so called leveling dumgeons.
And since they generally cannot block IP addresses(because of huge dynamically assigned IP ranges for client access), all they really can do is to try to find and remove the bots as quickly as possible. And also change the game to make the effort required to bot and the fruits gained from it less so that in the end, the cost/benefit of botting goes away.
But since bots to a large extent can duplicate what players do, that probably would mean removing any tradeable goods from the game. Which would be bad for playability.
Maybe we should be required to fill out a CAPTCHA password each time we engage a mob?
hmmm, maybe some changes is good for "payability" so they might interest it and captcha per mob can be new minigames in game so it will be NEW -content then?
ps. sorry clipped some stuff off, but I think contex is still same?
But at the end of the day here i am running edemo/ndemo and i succeded in having x594 of +1- +4 rings , and basically thats my only reward after 7 days of farming non stop.
Maybe its karma. Newer players who now have to farm for over a year for one mythic would be happy if you get 594 more +1 - +4 rings going forward
* Commercial bots diverts funds from the player mass to the botters. These funds could otherwise have gone to the game operator. If the game operators economy is undermined, game updates will be fewer, and ultimately the game can be shut down. * For-self bots skews the competitive landscape in PvE and well as PvP, giving the botters a lot more resources than they deserve from their efforts in game. Gear in game and the associated status should be build by the same rules by all, it is not acceptable that someone get a lot of goodies because they run a programmed solution(bot). * And of course the botters contribute to lag, diverts developer resources to handle them, messes up the economy, etc etc. Lots of bad secondary effects from botting too.
If you have a problem with grinding, any MMORPG might not be the right game for you
Honesty there is no fight against bots. As a player I could care less. What we should care about is grind, boredom, quality of life and content.
I used to be the same way, but it seems like any time they do something anti-bot it hurts the players. Look at how expensive it is to upgrade artifacts since they made their anti-botting skill node change. It looks to me like having effective bots in the game is extremely good for players who don't bot.
0
jiubiizeekkMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 144Arc User
Honesty there is no fight against bots. As a player I could care less. What we should care about is grind, boredom, quality of life and content.
I used to be the same way, but it seems like any time they do something anti-bot it hurts the players. Look at how expensive it is to upgrade artifacts since they made their anti-botting skill node change. It looks to me like having effective bots in the game is extremely good for players who don't bot.
So true.... I've got two characters whom have maxed legendary/mythic artifacts. But the SW has been shat on over and over. kinda over it. and i have lost intrest in my Guardian fighter because its so easy, Except when you know Orcus hits 500-1mil damage on me when i have a laggy response whilst using fighters recovery.
So i decided to dust off my old CW with epic artifacts and those artifacts haven't moved a single point since the "antisipated Skill node "fix"" simply because Im not going to waste RP when it isn't 2x refine because its so god dambed expensive. Like 30K for 99 rank 5's. That doesn't even get you up 1 rank. on a non 2xrefine time.
At the very least make the skill node change simultaneous with an increase in refining item/enchant drops that can be sold and used by real players *stares at lowly epic artifact gear with one enchant slot*
Someone should make a calculation how many days of max ad are needed to get 4 artefacts from green to mythic and if it is 2 years simply make a suggestion to lower rp needed.
Please fix Zhentarim Warlock companion's skill "Arcane Warping" to the originally intended "Arcane Boost" zhentarim-warlock-companion
Yep, RP surely needs a rework (that 3 years spending all your daily ad every day without counting enchants is..... ) and it's not that they sell refinement as a primary zen thing (besides the awful blood rubies there is none)
Please fix Zhentarim Warlock companion's skill "Arcane Warping" to the originally intended "Arcane Boost" zhentarim-warlock-companion
at 36k a day it would take 3.2 years to max 4 new artifacts.
Thats insane...... Might as well just give up on making alts. Guess the Decision making people still haven't decided on how much they're going to Mess with us....
Wow. You need to tone this down a notch I think. While bots certainly are a vialation of the game's rules and I agree that most are damaging to the game, they are not "criminals", nor are they "stealing" anything. These terms are cleary defined and just don't apply here.
By selling in game assets which they do not own as per the Terms of Service (signed contract) they are in fact stealing.
Bot makers are not legally criminals (in most cases) but they are breaching the contract which is in fact illegal under any definition and by selling products they do not own as per the contract they are legally defined as stealing from the company. Breaches of contract are virtually always a civil case but make no mistake it is in fact "illegal," "stealing" and the bot makers can be sued for breaching the contract, theft of property and damages to business. Example.
You do not own ANYTHING in this game or virtually any MMO. Not your account. Not your name. Not your items. Nothing. You lease everything you have access to and have no legal right to sell it.
If you do the MMO company has the right to every penny you sell it for.
And this is not limited to just MMO's. Your iTunes, amazon or Google account have similar restrictions. Back in 2012 there was a false report that Bruce Willis was going to sue Apple due to the restrictions on transferring songs he purchased on iTunes. Now the rumor was debunked the next day by Willis but that is a grain of falsehood in the otherwise very real legally binding contracts you make with Apple, Amazon, Google, Microsoft...and every MMO.
@ambisinisterr the interesting question is how these laws actually behave in question, because whilst true, these things are illegal, but practically trying to enforce those laws isn't as easy as it sounds. For example, say the bot company exists somewhere in some country that America (or whatever country NWO is based in) doesn't have an extradition treaty with, that person may be breaking the terms of service, but good luck ever taking them to trial for it. The same is true for the terms of service for any game really, you don't know how binding they are, until the company actually tries to enforce them. Whilst I do agree that they should be legally binding and that people should not get away with breaking them, I imagine most of the time, for the company in question, it isn't worth the effort they would have to go to to actually have people punished for breaking those terms.
The real issue is, who polices the internet, it isn't governed by one country, it has no nationality and no borders, in many ways, the internet is ahead of its time.
Interesting but you are all forgetting one thing.You cant force your own law to other countries' citizens.I am not American so where can you sue me.I dont think my country have any virtual world laws yet.I mean I remember there was a dude who got hacked and robbed 2000$ worth of ingame items 3-4 years ago.He went to the police but police was also dumbfounded because there was no law for ingame items to be counted as owned property or something like that.Of course hacking is illegal but I dont think its punishment as harsh as robery.Also most of online gaming companies dont like dealing other governments than where they are founded because of issues like taxes or lawsuits.For example, I am not American and I accepted user aggrements so lets say I did something I was not supposed to, where do you plan to sue me.And according to whose law?
This is exactly what I am getting at.
Look at the bottom of the Terms of Service. There's usually a severability clause as well as a clause determining where and under what jurisdiction the contract is governed by. Any dispute (or claim) arising from said agreement is governed under the laws of the courts stated in that clause, regardless of where the claim originates.
For example, Section 31 (haha, for anyone that gets the Star Trek reference in this) of the ARC Terms of Service states:
Unless applicable mandatory law expressly dictates otherwise: - this Agreement is governed by and shall be construed and enforced under the laws of the Netherlands; - the applicability of the Vienna Sales Convention is expressly excluded; - Any action, dispute or proceeding instituted under this Agreement shall be brought before the competent court in Amsterdam, the Netherlands.
This would be an example of a jurisdiction clause. Unless the law of your country expressly states otherwise, any suit brought against ARC (and conversely, any suit ARC brings against a person) would be governed under Netherlands law and in a court of the Netherlands, regardless of the country in which the person resides.
Due to the fact, that we are consumers, any clause claiming a certain land as origin is invalid in germany and in most european countries.
Fact is, that most contracts you 'sign' online are wishful thinking on the side of the company. There are laws restricting the ability to dictate onsided rules of service and it cant get more one sided than 'you dont own anything you pay for and we can do anything we want without any reason at all'. If this would be possible, there would be no warrenty, no legal actions etc, bc every contract would have one line 'I am allowed to do anything and you dont have any rights' and the one writing the contract would 'rule' without any fear of legal actions.
BTW did you never wonder, why landlords abandoned 'jus prima noctae', if there are no restictions to legal contracts.^^
While most judges and lawmakers still have difficulties grasping the fact, that something immaterial can have a value, the fact is, that an account and items have a value on their own. Imo it is just a question of time, until someone claims, that his character is a work of art, protected by copyright law or some other legal reason (last, but not least, 'I paid for that, so I own it) and wins.
This is valid for players, while botters 'play' to earn money, so it is a business for them, so there is another set of laws applying to their legal relationship with cryptic.
I suppose that if Cryptic want to sue someone, they can file the case at the Amsterdam court. It would then be up to the court to decide if they are competent, and if so, which country's law that applies. If they decided in favor of Cryptic, then enforcing the judgement would be an entierly different story.
I guess this would be a long and complicated ride. It might be easier to sue directly in the home country of the violater, depending on which country that is.
Whatever happens, if they sue someone, I hope they win. I'd rather see the money end up in the pockets of those that create and develop the game, rather then with some geek that is too lazy to get a real job.
With dreams to be a king, first one should be a man.
I suppose that if Cryptic want to sue someone, they can file the case at the Amsterdam court. It would then be up to the court to decide if they are competent, and if so, which country's law that applies. If they decided in favor of Cryptic, then enforcing the judgement would be an entierly different story.
I guess this would be a long and complicated ride. It might be easier to sue directly in the home country of the violater, depending on which country that is.
Whatever happens, if they sue someone, I hope they win. I'd rather see the money end up in the pockets of those that create and develop the game, rather then with some geek that is too lazy to get a real job.
taking years and years to remake a few dungeons is not a real job either.
On a side note, a quite successful company with lots of lawyer money got into talks with a pirate server company instead of due ng them - maybe they will make them content creators
So hire bot operators for content creation - maybe pay them in AD
Please fix Zhentarim Warlock companion's skill "Arcane Warping" to the originally intended "Arcane Boost" zhentarim-warlock-companion
Comments
31.4: If any provision of this Agreement shall be unlawful, void, or for any reason unenforceable, then that provision shall be deemed severable from this Agreement and shall not affect the validity and enforceability of any remaining provisions.
That is the important word, a legal agreement isn't worth much if you have no way to enforce it. Its the exact same thing as Edward Snowdan really, he has broken the laws of the USA and the USA would certainly like to get a hold of him, but unless they manage to convince the Russian Government to turn him over, there is no way they can hold him accountable.
Would the people who buy AD and use botted rp rather buy from cryptic than some shady 3rd party? My guess is yes, so make the zen market items equivalent then the botters don't have anything worth selling. You can still control the zen ad price with your coal wards / pwards, (price out of line currently too). It is all about value and cryptic isn't offering it.
The much larger issue is the practicality of going after individual people. Lawyers and travel expenses are expensive which is why MMO companies normally opt to just terminate the contract (discontinue service) to people on an individual basis when they breach the contract. It is not practical to file a lawsuit against every person but when one target is large enough to justify the expense put towards the lawsuit then it has been done in the past and will continue to be done in the future. As stated, contracts are nothing new to the world. They are as old as the legal system and every country has laws regarding them.
So as Lew said in part, unless the terms of the contract are not legal in the country you are in then the contract would be legally binding regardless of where you or the company resided.
Jagex is a UK based company. The bot company they filed the suit against was in the United States and the actual Lawsuit took place within the United States.
The UN actually passed laws on the International Sale of Goods back in 1980 which may or may not apply based on the circumstances of the contract but as stated within that link there are virtually always going to be domestic laws which govern international contracts. You would have to contact a lawyer for full details if you are really that curious. All I can do is say that the belief that just because you live in another country means you are immune to legal ramifications when dealing with international companies is a fallacy.
Contracts are enforced domestically and internationally as long as they are legal within both countries.
There is no debate to be had on whether or not they can be enforced internationally. I had already proven they can be enforced internationally before you had even posted. The bigger question is whether or not it is worth the time, effort and money to enforce them other than by terminating the contract (banning the user) in which case the answer is: normally not.
Problem solved, also free access to all currencies, free exchange from credits(regular game currency) to paying currency
I am saying that legally they have every right to sue you and would win but do not do so because it would cost more than they would receive in return.
There are rare cases (particularly with botting companies) that lawsuits have been filed they have been won because the contract is legally binding. There is no debating that. Your argument of the practicality of filing a lawsuit over every minor transgression is a completely different and irrelevant to the point I made which is that the terms of the contract define (indirectly) that selling or buying in game assets for out of game assets is stealing as you have no legal right to sell them.
No wall of text needed. You need only to not dispute something never stated to begin with. They have the right to sue. They would win the suit. But it would not be practical to sue everyone. Plain and simple.
Unless you are arguing something different and I am completely missing the point entirely in which do feel free to send me a PM. A quick google search returned that players do bot the game much to the surprise of people who think people only bot to sell items. As I said those who would choose to buy from bots simply switch into being bots in games which prevent them from trading with others.
Less? It is hard to prove but I see no proof that it is less. Less complained about for sure but spam bots are annoying so logically people complain more about them.
In any case I am really not going to debate every other MMO on the face of the planet. I am willing to indulge in minor side references but naming a bunch of other games just to say "this game is PvP and people still bot" or "this game has no trade and people don't bot as much" is a line I am going to draw.
Games are not going to redesign from the ground up to combat bots. The only MMO's which are not botted at all are SOME (don't name the exceptions for the love of...) PvP Games or games with Dark Souls level boss fights as it's main source of progression. Games without free trade or games that have faster progression will always be botted until they cross the same line that people no longer feel a sense of progression which is a death sentence for an MMO as the sense of progression is the only way to keep players playing (and thus paying) for the service.
Stop naming MMO's. I am going to remove any names from this point forward unless my quick google search doesn't find complaints of botting. If you want to prove me wrong then please do so. Find a bot free MMO which isn't a PvP Game or a game which is Dark Souls caliber PvE and know that Neverwinter is not those games and asking for it to become that is not something that will be done.
Also the content is not removable from the game.
So the can be no theft in the normal sense.
The users are just granted a right to use the property of the MMORP operator for their entertainment.
What the botters do however, is to disrupt the intended way of working in the product.
So I think this would have to be handled according to the laws used to combat hacking, DDOS and similar disruptive misconduct over the Internet. Most countries have laws that can be applied against that - they better have or they could get shut out from the Internet.
Another way to legally attack this would be contract law, since they are breaking the TOS, which is a legally binding contract between you and the MMORP operator. Again, most countries have laws to enforce contracts, or they would have major problems being part of the international business community.
But since the economic value of each case is so small, for all practical purposes the only thing the MMORPG operators can do is to shut the bad guys out from the game. It is just not worth it to pursue it further.
And since they generally cannot block IP addresses(because of huge dynamically assigned IP ranges for client access), all they really can do is to try to find and remove the bots as quickly as possible. And also change the game to make the effort required to bot and the fruits gained from it less so that in the end, the cost/benefit of botting goes away.
But since bots to a large extent can duplicate what players do, that probably would mean removing any tradeable goods from the game. Which would be bad for playability.
Maybe we should be required to fill out a CAPTCHA password each time we engage a mob?
Makes you wonder if somehow this could be translated to MMOs like for example some gold selling site being actually owned by some MMO company - so it gets royalty free and developer free money that would else go to a third party from there....
zhentarim-warlock-companion
Pure -> Transcendent Plague Fire weapon enchantment giving 80damge/20 seconds for 500k+ AD is a joke.
plague-fire-weapon-enchant-r11-vs-r12
ps. sorry clipped some stuff off, but I think contex is still same?
* Commercial bots diverts funds from the player mass to the botters. These funds could otherwise have gone to the game operator. If the game operators economy is undermined, game updates will be fewer, and ultimately the game can be shut down.
* For-self bots skews the competitive landscape in PvE and well as PvP, giving the botters a lot more resources than they deserve from their efforts in game. Gear in game and the associated status should be build by the same rules by all, it is not acceptable that someone get a lot of goodies because they run a programmed solution(bot).
* And of course the botters contribute to lag, diverts developer resources to handle them, messes up the economy, etc etc. Lots of bad secondary effects from botting too.
If you have a problem with grinding, any MMORPG might not be the right game for you
So i decided to dust off my old CW with epic artifacts and those artifacts haven't moved a single point since the "antisipated Skill node "fix"" simply because Im not going to waste RP when it isn't 2x refine because its so god dambed expensive. Like 30K for 99 rank 5's. That doesn't even get you up 1 rank. on a non 2xrefine time.
zhentarim-warlock-companion
Pure -> Transcendent Plague Fire weapon enchantment giving 80damge/20 seconds for 500k+ AD is a joke.
plague-fire-weapon-enchant-r11-vs-r12
zhentarim-warlock-companion
Pure -> Transcendent Plague Fire weapon enchantment giving 80damge/20 seconds for 500k+ AD is a joke.
plague-fire-weapon-enchant-r11-vs-r12
Fact is, that most contracts you 'sign' online are wishful thinking on the side of the company. There are laws restricting the ability to dictate onsided rules of service and it cant get more one sided than 'you dont own anything you pay for and we can do anything we want without any reason at all'. If this would be possible, there would be no warrenty, no legal actions etc, bc every contract would have one line 'I am allowed to do anything and you dont have any rights' and the one writing the contract would 'rule' without any fear of legal actions.
BTW did you never wonder, why landlords abandoned 'jus prima noctae', if there are no restictions to legal contracts.^^
While most judges and lawmakers still have difficulties grasping the fact, that something immaterial can have a value, the fact is, that an account and items have a value on their own. Imo it is just a question of time, until someone claims, that his character is a work of art, protected by copyright law or some other legal reason (last, but not least, 'I paid for that, so I own it) and wins.
This is valid for players, while botters 'play' to earn money, so it is a business for them, so there is another set of laws applying to their legal relationship with cryptic.
I guess this would be a long and complicated ride. It might be easier to sue directly in the home country of the violater, depending on which country that is.
Whatever happens, if they sue someone, I hope they win. I'd rather see the money end up in the pockets of those that create and develop the game, rather then with some geek that is too lazy to get a real job.
Rise to POWER with <House of Power>.
The Exterminator - (NW-DLNXF3BGG)
So hire bot operators for content creation - maybe pay them in AD
zhentarim-warlock-companion
Pure -> Transcendent Plague Fire weapon enchantment giving 80damge/20 seconds for 500k+ AD is a joke.
plague-fire-weapon-enchant-r11-vs-r12