Low item level characters out dps'ing 3ks

thatguy321654987 · April 2016

Just had a few games where a sw 2k item level character did 110 mil dps, compared to me a 3k tr, i did like 40 mil. The only stat this guy had more than me was in critical strike, by like a 1000. I fail to see how this is possible.

This also happened to 3.3 GWF friend of mine, who was partied with another gwf, at 2.6. He had better stats, yet the 2.6 was able to do 25 mil more dps. I am confused.

zibadawa · April 2016

Build, companions and knowing how to pump out the damage optimally are big factors. SW's also have some of the top DPS builds in the game, and can do prodigious amounts of damage with things like Tyrannical Threat when used appropriately.

lewstelamon01 · April 2016

Stats alone aren't everything. Keep in mind that 1k crit translates to about a two percent increase in crit chance. Not much, you think--except that Tyrannical Threat links damage from EVERYTHING near its target. So, while you're wailing away on one monster, he's hitting the entire group...and that two percent adds up. Especially when you consider that SW also gets a feat that increases their crit severity by up to 15%. Also, was this SW a Hellbringer or Soulbinder paragon? Soulbinders can get a LOT of additional damage from Soul Sparks--something else that won't show up on a character sheet. Curse increases damage against a target, so on.

Also, item level can be deceptive. There's a LOT of items that don't add directly to one's offensive potential that are nevertheless counted in item level (such as Dragon Hoard and Fey Blessing enchantments).

Bottom line: It ain't just the stats. There's a whoooooole lot more to damage than your character sheet.

wildfirede · April 2016

that and r12 bondings giving gazillion of stats and counting as 0il

mrgiggles651 · April 2016

And boons don't count for iLVL. Stronghold boons can give basically more stats than any gear you can get.

ogarious · April 2016

zibadawa said:
Build, companions and knowing how to pump out the damage optimally are big factors. SW's also have some of the top DPS builds in the game, and can do prodigious amounts of damage with things like Tyrannical Threat when used appropriately.

This.....With my build and 2904 IS I can outdamage most 4k characters in PvE dungeons. Some of the best wizards can tie or manage to beat me by around 100k or so, but they have to be really good. You all had your time on the top, now it's the scourge warlock's turn HAMSTER!!!

durugudesu · April 2016

ogarious said:

zibadawa said:
Build, companions and knowing how to pump out the damage optimally are big factors. SW's also have some of the top DPS builds in the game, and can do prodigious amounts of damage with things like Tyrannical Threat when used appropriately.
This.....With my build and 2904 IS I can outdamage most 4k characters in PvE dungeons. Some of the best wizards can tie or manage to beat me by around 100k or so, but they have to be really good. You all had your time on the top, now it's the scourge warlock's turn HAMSTER!!!

kindly name these best wizards you speak of. thanks

schietindebux · April 2016

There were by sure some wizards who beat you orgarious, not sure after lolset nerf.
But back to topic, running beside a 2k damnation warlock is allways a pleasure, no matter if he is Hellbringer or Soulbinder at that itemlevel.
He will by sure out dps you in most cases. Hellbringer is said to be the weaker path, but he can also do good.
Having rank 12 bondings and a maxed companion on top, 8k power from SH boon, 4k mount and a GF in his party, his puppet will deal more damage than a you do in some dungeons.
A soulbinder puppet deals about 60%+ overall damage at 2k il, a hellbringer up to 85% from overall damage (15% deals the lock

), the buffs from HB will give the puppet even more power than SB ´s puppet gains.
Furylocks at that IL won´t work that good.

mentinmindmaker · April 2016

There are a lot of factors in this that IL does not show:
* Playstyle - an aggressive playstyle running ahead of group counts for a lot
* Mount bonus
* Guild boon bonus
* Some IL has no dps effect(utility ones typically)
* Class - GWF and SW are a bit unbalanced currently. Too strong compared to others. Correcting the Lostmauth set probably only was the first step in a balancing process
* Use of buff potions
* Build quality - there is usually a huge difference between an optimal build and a less optimal one

For starters, read your class boards and tune your character according to posted successful builds there.
And if you care about dps standing, make sure you don't lag behind group in dungeons.

The only thing that is not directly fixable is the class tuning by Cryptic. But it seems they are working on that now, and I'll be surprised if the better GWF and SW builds are not looked closely at.

phoenix1021 · April 2016

That was probably a damnation build. Soul Puppets deal tons of damage, probably due to a bug somewhere. Has nothing to do with skill, boons or potions or anything.

ftryda · April 2016

Most likely the sw was soulbinder damnation. I ran that build the majority of my time up to 3.3k iL. (I am now 4k+ depending on gearing). While many damnation refuse to admit it, I assure you it was the puppet dealing damage since I tested many runs where I engaged the bare minimum to keep puppet up. This is also why the damnation warlock will reach high numbers at even a lower iL because the source is the puppet. It is a combination of stacking buff interactions that overstack and seem to duplicate on the puppet. Although fury warlocks see this same odd interaction with murderous flame...

As far as a lower iL gwf, I believe this thread already has the best explanation of this which is either playstyle and running ahead just enough with well placed timing or simply guild boons and/or bonding stones can make the difference.

grabmoore · April 2016

Everything can happen in a skirmish, yes LoL and Valindra are skirmish-like, too. Just ran ahead like the hyperactive CoD kid you are and kill everything before the others even enter the dungeon...

If this SW was a damnation-lock it takes no skill. Not that current gameplay requires any skill at all with 4k toons running 2k content.

thatguy321654987 · April 2016

Very interesting. I am only just starting to tweak my companions. I'll look into it. For the record, i got to give some props to the SW; the guy came in late after some people left and just dominated the chart.

taitinhakkaaja · April 2016

Invite those sw's to t1 content and no buffs... Then you see how good they really are.

relkindx · April 2016

My friends has a 4k Ranger that he likes to play as a Stormwarden Archer. (he has bonding R12's as well). He always gets out DPS'ed by CW's and GWF even if they are 1k-1.5 k lower than him. Haven't talked to him since the lostmauth change though. I think the CW's and GWF's took the biggest hit on that, not sure though.

cesoso55 · April 2016

mentinmindmaker said:
There are a lot of factors in this that IL does not show:

* Class - GWF and SW are a bit unbalanced currently. Too strong compared to others. Correcting the Lostmauth set probably only was the first step in a balancing process

The only thing that is not directly fixable is the class tuning by Cryptic. But it seems they are working on that now, and I'll be surprised if the better GWF and SW builds are not looked closely at.

I don't think so, HR, TR and CW can do great dps as well, even more than gwf in some situations (like trash clearing for example), if you see more gwf and sw running around with hdps is because there are well explained guides in the forums and people are used to think those classes are the only ones for max dps, so they refer to them when someone ask for a dps build, but I have seen TR, HR and CW focused on dps competing on dps with same lvl and skill gwf and sw.

blinxon · April 2016

cesoso55 said:
but I have seen TR, HR and CW focused on dps competing on dps with same lvl and skill gwf and sw.

Erm...i dont think a HR or a CW can make the same DPS as a SW or a GWF. Some BIS TRs maybe can. But a HR or a CW? sry...cant believe this.

schietindebux · April 2016

to those comment above.
1. @ftryda , noone negates that puppet is broken, never did, morderous flame is even more broken fyi (200.000.000 miohits, pfff

)
2. @grabmoore , it´s the same skill every player has in this game, low level since it´s all about how broken your buidl is

3. @taitinhakkaaja , even running T1 damnation is very good in case you manage to pop your spirits and puppet deals solid damage even in T1
4. I stick with cesosos55, since in my world there is a GWF who can do crazy ammounts of damage even after lolset-nerf, there are TR-builds that beat damnation in some dungeons on single target as they beat GWF´s, there also are CW´s i personally met who dealt more damage in a max.-buff-group than a damnation warlock
Warlock solo compared to other classes is unhandy and "low fun" btw., this class only shines in dungeons has no CC no dodge, not much buffs...all this class has is damage (and 50% from that damage is bugged)
Fact: my 2,5 GWF kills frost giants 2 time faster than my near maxed warlock, and he doesn´t need a 4k crit ring, a maxed companion and bondings rank 12 to do so

This game is all about (most important at first)
1. the quality of bondings you use
2. the companion you run and
3. the build you run (maybe that´s more at 2)
4. a little bit of knoweledge about the class

Ah, I forgot the last and also very important point, abusing broken feats and mechanics is one of the most important points
At least GF, OP, Hunter and warlock are in some powers and feats broken (warlock is obviuos puppet, morderous flame)
GF...steel blitz + commander strike seems broken ( commander strike allways was buggy regarding PVP)
Hunter..saw that video near oneshooting a dragon in WoD, lol...
OP I can´t tell since patch what is broken ( at least the healing that class does

, but zero mitigation so wasted)
... TR/CW/GWF not sure about these classes

Uh, another thing, witnessed a dragonrun in WoD few days ago, it was a "premade" group from know guilds.
5-6 guy running with HV and I guess HP-set, melting those dragons by a GWF/GF and some more striker in..6 seconds or let´s say 8 ?
Never saw a better evidence for the fact that this game is not about skill or classes, no that´s just redicules, 10 buffs from broken equip+ feats like ITF and a mighty dragon looked like a small insect.

durugudesu · April 2016

blinxon said:

cesoso55 said:
but I have seen TR, HR and CW focused on dps competing on dps with same lvl and skill gwf and sw.
Erm...i dont think a HR or a CW can make the same DPS as a SW or a GWF. Some BIS TRs maybe can. But a HR or a CW? sry...cant believe this.

MEH.

cesoso55 · April 2016

blinxon said:

cesoso55 said:
but I have seen TR, HR and CW focused on dps competing on dps with same lvl and skill gwf and sw.
Erm...i dont think a HR or a CW can make the same DPS as a SW or a GWF. Some BIS TRs maybe can. But a HR or a CW? sry...cant believe this.

Actually I would put HR a little bit ahead of TR in dps, my main is a 3.5k gwf with 98% crit chance, Pure vorpal, all boons, perfect bondings, twisted and lostmauth set, WD feat updated, etc, I know what im talking about since i've been playing CN and Edemo last week and yesterdeay for example there was a 3.6 HR in a CN doing the same dps as me, while i was doing more dps against trash, the HR actually was outdpsing me in boss fights, In edemo i find some CW and obviously Sw that outdps or equals me at 3.2-3.6k. But I have found also TRs at 3.1-3.5k really close in dps to me. Sure, I see more Gwf and sw with hdps running around but that is because those classes got more popular since some videos and guides posted like lazalia for example, But I would not say they have a powerful advantage over TR, HR and CW if well built.

throsbi · April 2016

Item level, gear score, pedunkles, humperdinkles, call it what ever you like. Those silly numbers are just a guide for those that do not understand how to build a character. It gives them an easy go to. Stats, boons, skills, rotations, party makeup, and more sometimes even those odd little trinkets, pots and what not can make a huge difference. It usually boils down to the skill of the player that matters.

On top of all that, those charts in game are another guide for all us silly folks that dont pay attention to what matters.... a good run with the bosses down and the loots in the inventory. Why sweat the small stuff when we have more loots to get.

zibadawa · April 2016

cesoso55 said:
Actually I would put HR a little bit ahead of TR in dps, my main is a 3.5k gwf with 98% crit chance, Pure vorpal, all boons, perfect bondings, twisted and lostmauth set, WD feat updated, etc, I know what im talking about since i've been playing CN and Edemo last week and yesterdeay for example there was a 3.6 HR in a CN doing the same dps as me, while i was doing more dps against trash, the HR actually was outdpsing me in boss fights, In edemo i find some CW and obviously Sw that outdps or equals me at 3.2-3.6k. But I have found also TRs at 3.1-3.5k really close in dps to me. Sure, I see more Gwf and sw with hdps running around but that is because those classes got more popular since some videos and guides posted like lazalia for example, But I would not say they have a powerful advantage over TR, HR and CW if well built.

That's mostly because of bleed-like effects and other DoTs, which those classes have far more of than a GWF. Against trash there's not enough time for DoTs to do meaningful damage, but against a boss there's time for several casts of each DoT to do their full effect. The Lostmauth nerf affected GWFs the most, which has closed the gap between them and everyone else.

blinxon · April 2016

cesoso55 said:
In edemo i find some CW and obviously Sw that outdps or equals me at 3.2-3.6k. But I have found also TRs at 3.1-3.5k really close in dps to me.

Edemo says nothing about DPS. Sry. How much did the HRr out dpsed you in CN at bosses? Which boss? All bosses?

schietindebux · April 2016

If you judge the classes following the damage in a dungeon it´s probably warlock>GWF>CW>Hunter>TR
If you judge those classes according to the solo gameplay/handling/fun factor it´s probabaly CW?>GWF>Hunter>TR>warlock
You allways have to mention warlocks damage is 50% bugged, so fix it and we are all pretty close in damage.
TR outshines most classes on singel target if the build is made for dps.
You can do an edemeo run and find a GF near top damagedealer, that´s the guy who knows his class and mechanics.

thefabricant · April 2016

schietindebux said:
If you judge the classes following the damage in a dungeon it´s probably warlock>GWF>CW>Hunter>TR
If you judge those classes according to the solo gameplay/handling/fun factor it´s probabaly CW?>GWF>Hunter>TR>warlock
You allways have to mention warlocks damage is 50% bugged, so fix it and we are all pretty close in damage.
TR outshines most classes on singel target if the build is made for dps.
You can do an edemeo run and find a GF near top damagedealer, that´s the guy who knows his class and mechanics.

@schietindebux I would argue that a DPS gf is the highest dps toon out of all the classes.

taitinhakkaaja · April 2016

Where can get that kind of high dps gf build?

thefabricant · April 2016

taitinhakkaaja said:
Where can get that kind of high dps gf build?

You would have to ask people honestly, Freya, @d66723225 could tell you, if he is willing to deign the forum with his presence (he reads, but does not comment).

schietindebux · April 2016

Steel Blitz + commander strike, but only works that good in thiamat and edemo i was told

blinxon · April 2016

metalldjt said:

and yes, i agree with @thefabricant , if i remember correctly i've done few epic demos with Dom ( @freshour ) and he outdpsed me a few times, at that time he was running a pve build.

You was running a PVE build too?

blinxon · April 2016

Azure 12s...ok. Azure dont give you any power. You sure you played your GWF as a PVE toon (SM+ Destro)? NO offense. Just curious.

taitinhakkaaja · April 2016

I had some conversations about gf dps with some mates. My friend plays hr 3.4k il and he is very good dealing damage, he said that there was gf in dungeon that out dps everyone and dps difference was significant.

Low item level characters out dps'ing 3ks

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