Changing some numbers don't need testing of every skill on every item, that's ridiculous.
You need to test every change you make in order to see if it works properly just in case certain aspects are producing unintentional effects with various feats/spells and whatnot. It's not just "increase damage" concept, it's "test everything CW oriented concept". New developers do their job to an extent, but have issues because of the code that they didn't make.
Relying on storm spell to deal damage was awful and everyone was against it when it came out, because it didn't need skill to deal damage, only just be in the middle of mobs and cast Icy Terrain.
People were against it because a) People needed to drastically change their builds. b) People needed to adapt a new technique. c) Singularity was not used anymore and GWF tears were shed. d) MoF tears were also shed due to the Eye of the Storm + Storm Spell.
People to this day still use Icy Terrain in order to gain procs, that's just one aspect of the CW rotation of spells and it is by far the weakest damage dealer out of all spells.
You're stating that CWs relying on Storm Spell was awful. This leads me to believe that you do not understand just how much CWs have been nerfed over the previous two years, disabling their abilities to actually crit.
That's like saying "Since CWs play so good they don't need to crit on several of their abilities", and here you propose an increase to the actual damage itself instead on just one aspect that EVERYONE AND THEIR GRANDMA got used to.
Playing melee CW is not risk free and as such it is completely justified, especially since
a) CWs are a squishy class b) Life-Steal got nerfed c) Are not a top three DPS classes d) Million other reasons that I can find
So, umsche, do you main the Spell Storm control wizard?
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Changing some numbers don't need testing of every skill on every item, that's ridiculous.
You need to test every change you make in order to see if it works properly just in case certain aspects are producing unintentional effects with various feats/spells and whatnot. It's not just "increase damage" concept, it's "test everything CW oriented concept". New developers do their job to an extent, but have issues because of the code that they didn't make.
Relying on storm spell to deal damage was awful and everyone was against it when it came out, because it didn't need skill to deal damage, only just be in the middle of mobs and cast Icy Terrain.
People were against it because a) People needed to drastically change their builds. b) People needed to adapt a new technique. c) Singularity was not used anymore and GWF tears were shed. d) MoF tears were also shed due to the Eye of the Storm + Storm Spell.
People to this day still use Icy Terrain in order to gain procs, that's just one aspect of the CW rotation of spells and it is by far the weakest damage dealer out of all spells.
You're stating that CWs relying on Storm Spell was awful. This leads me to believe that you do not understand just how much CWs have been nerfed over the previous two years, disabling their abilities to actually crit.
That's like saying "Since CWs play so good they don't need to crit on several of their abilities", and here you propose an increase to the actual damage itself instead on just one aspect that EVERYONE AND THEIR GRANDMA got used to.
Playing melee CW is not risk free and as such it is completely justified, especially since
a) CWs are a squishy class b) Life-Steal got nerfed c) Are not a top three DPS classes d) Million other reasons that I can find
So, umsche, do you main the Spell Storm control wizard?
I swiched to MoF recently, which is why I'm opposed to a "boost Storm spell only" strategy. In my opinion, every CWs need love, not just SS. And I would be opposed to a simple "increase Smolder damage" for MoFs, it's not fun.
I think CWs were more fun to play with the pre mod4 meta, gather mobs then destroy them with the big ball.
I, too, would like to see more D&D iconic spells like those you mentioned. But frankly speaking, Control Wizard is not designed to be a glass cannon because it spares some of its concentration on crowd control. Aside from Control Wizard, 4e rulebooks have also suggested some other interesting "builds" ("classes" if translated into this game). There is a suggested build called War Wizard, which is designed to be a full glass cannon. If highly offensive spells like Fireball, Chain Lightning, Cone of Cold, Meteor Swarm, and Acid Arrow were to be implemented, it would be for War Wizard. As for Dispel Magic and Invisibility, it would be more appropriate for Illusionist Wizard, which is yet another suggested build.
Except the D&D4 path was altered and removed. D&D5 is very different! Wizards were a powerhouse in D&D2-3 and pretty good dps again in D&D5. With those mentioned iconic aoe spells it could tear whole attacking groups to a new one! Yeah my heart missed a beat when Orcus used actual Power word: Death! Not to mention there are meteor showers all over the game (Scorpions, Dwarf spellcasters in DV). Triggered spells and real time stop would be very powerfull!
Thaum clearly need some buff or maybe the release of Sorcerer will put the nuke wizard back in the game.
It seems to me that 5e at here is for deciding the contents of class and race lists. This game still uses 4e concepts such as Paragon Path, At-Will Power, Encounter Power, and Daily Power.
Jack-of-all-trades style probably isn't for wizards. I would rather see the nuker wizard (War Wizard) be introduced than see thaumaturge be buffed. Although thaumaturge enables Control Wizard to do some more damage, Control Wizard is not born to nuke after all. So it would be better that the nuker do the nuking job and Control Wizard concentrates on crowd control.
I was talking about the comparison between Control Wizard and War Wizard. According to rulebook PHB, the former is mainly designed to control enemies while the latter is designed to do full-time nuking.
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romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
@ianthewizard2012 I can only quote myself here. Why are people so obsessed with old and outdated rulebooks which are COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. This isn't a table-top game that only plays in your head. This an MMORPG project.
and who defines what a class is supposed to do? What do you mean by SUPPOSED TO? You are comparing it to something, perhaps to a previous experience of yours, from an another game perhaps? What were wizards SUPPOSED TO do in that game and why are you trying to force your own preferations onto a whole community who obviously disagrees with you? Are you trying to say that this game is DnD? Because it's not. It's an MMO that LOOKS like DnD. Whichever rules you are trying to enforce here, it won't work, the environment is different, along with the rules.
Enemies could have a control resistance similar to a damage resistance. Then classes built for control could have abilities that have more control resist ignored, that kinda thing. T2 mobs and underdark stuff then could just have high control resist rather than their current control immunity.
I swiched to MoF recently, which is why I'm opposed to a "boost Storm spell only" strategy.
Phahahahaahahah. Exactly my point. MoFs are DoTs, SSs are burst. Always been like that and it will always remain to be like that.
Also, don't tell me how MoFs are not leaning on the features since that would be a major lie. How would you feel if the features that you lean on get nerfed to the ground? Exactly.
This is the issue with you MoF guys, you always tend to diss the SS class without realizing that not every paragon tree is the best and this goes for all classes around. Name me 10 GWF that chose Iron Vanguard? No sane GWF will do that next to a GF and OP. Makes no sense.
Also, you openly admitted that you'd hate to see the SpellStorm class having more damage. Question is - why don't you open the topic where you will ask the Devs to increase the smolder damage? What stops you? Me perhaps? The rest of the CW community? FCOL.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I agree. The CW has been treated so badly for the last few modules. Ignored except to be nerfed. Also, bring control back into the game and boost the CW's control powers. If you must, make them less effective in PVP. If not, perhaps change the name to Elemental Mage and add more elements to the powers list.
less effect in pvp? Cw control effects last like 0.3 secs in pvp. or they are immune to them. i would LOVE more element powers tho. a fast casting fire and lightning at will and fireball/lightning bolt encounters. can't see it happening tho.
@ianthewizard2012 I can only quote myself here. Why are people so obsessed with old and outdated rulebooks which are COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. This isn't a table-top game that only plays in your head. This an MMORPG project.
and who defines what a class is supposed to do? What do you mean by SUPPOSED TO? You are comparing it to something, perhaps to a previous experience of yours, from an another game perhaps? What were wizards SUPPOSED TO do in that game and why are you trying to force your own preferations onto a whole community who obviously disagrees with you? Are you trying to say that this game is DnD? Because it's not. It's an MMO that LOOKS like DnD. Whichever rules you are trying to enforce here, it won't work, the environment is different, along with the rules.
I can understand you. But while some can anticipate CW to be the only wizard class in the game forever, others can also anticipate more wizard classes to be introduced in the future.
As for D&D-wise, I think your remark is thought-provoking. There have been many times when I asked myself if this really is D&D or if this really is meaningful while I was doing those tedious daily quests. I feel that I have became so robotic and confused. Maybe I should think about it and make my decision seriously.
Also, you openly admitted that you'd hate to see the SpellStorm class having more damage. Question is - why don't you open the topic where you will ask the Devs to increase the smolder damage? What stops you? Me perhaps? The rest of the CW community? FCOL.
Do you realize that this is a game and not politics? We don't need groups of certain class builds lobbying for change at the developers. A game needs a certain amount of balance. One paragon path dealing twice as much damage as the other is not it. If all wizard damage would get increased then both storm spell as well as smolder would deal increased damage. Everyone wins. Where is the problem with that? They did the same with guardian fighters in mod 6, just increased all the damage. Then when the damage is normalized, the devs can take a look at what individual powers are underperforming compared to one another.
I swiched to MoF recently, which is why I'm opposed to a "boost Storm spell only" strategy.
Phahahahaahahah. Exactly my point. MoFs are DoTs, SSs are burst. Always been like that and it will always remain to be like that.
Also, don't tell me how MoFs are not leaning on the features since that would be a major lie. How would you feel if the features that you lean on get nerfed to the ground? Exactly.
This is the issue with you MoF guys, you always tend to diss the SS class without realizing that not every paragon tree is the best and this goes for all classes around. Name me 10 GWF that chose Iron Vanguard? No sane GWF will do that next to a GF and OP. Makes no sense.
Also, you openly admitted that you'd hate to see the SpellStorm class having more damage. Question is - why don't you open the topic where you will ask the Devs to increase the smolder damage? What stops you? Me perhaps? The rest of the CW community? FCOL.
Dude, I want all CWs to deal more damage... I switched to MoF because debuffs offer more overall damage than pure dps in a good group.
I'm opposed to a "boost Storm spell only" strategy. In my opinion, every CWs need love, not just SS. And I would be opposed to a simple "increase Smolder damage" for MoFs, it's not fun.
I think CWs were more fun to play with the pre mod4 meta, gather mobs then destroy them with the big ball.
I agree completely on an increase in CW damage, just not on a single portion of the CW like you want.
Plus this is a topic about increasing CW damage, not just about unnerfing Storm-spell, you hijacked it that way cause you think it's the only solution even though there are others and the fact that it's never going to happen, just like the unnerf of GWF's deep wound never happened.
If I was to switch back to SS, I wouldn't want Storm Spell to be my best source of damage. I didn't like that much in mod 4-5.
Don't bother, umsche. The guy has proven over and over again that all he appears to be here for is hostility.
Frankly, after having played some more hours since the lost nerf I don't think we need much of a damage buff. I'd just love to see some powers being brought up to speed. In an ideal world, I'd also appreciate not being dependent on the same two class features.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Care to show the breakdown of powers being used by the GF and yourself? That's some effectiveness.
Sure, here is goristro:
GF:
Me:
I do have focused wizardry. My rotation for goristro was Icy rays (tab), RoE, Disintegrate, CoI. The reason Icy terrain and sudden appear in the log is because I used them in phase 1, which seems to be counting as part of the goristro fight for some reason.
a) It will lead to multiple bugs, like it did before thus making clustafunky synergy with enchantments of various sorts b) It will not help CWs in the longer run since devs will scribe-it-down as "Job Complete!" and leave it like that for some time c) SS CWs will still underperform in AoE combat, while MoFs will remain regular and a better choice party-wise as they are now d) The single-target damage will remain the obvious choice, thus undermining the possibility to gain from pure INT builds e) CWs are still going to be looked down upon f) Developers DO NOT increase damage per orb, but rather per feat/encounter recovery (as we've seen with the skills such as Spell Twisting and the recent GF damage increase for around 20%).
A game needs a certain amount of balance. One paragon path dealing twice as much damage as the other is not it.
Haha classic, find me Iron Vanguard that deals more damage than a Swordmaster and I will agree with you. Until you do so, you will not post biased opinions that "Game is terrible because your paragon choice is not equal to another paragon choice". If anything, they should be as different as possible, not as similar as possible since that destroys their purpose. Hell, why we don't make ALL the classes to deal equal damage and be equally tanky since we're so effin altruistic in all this? The game needs FIXING, there's no denial in that, but not by increasing the overall damage of everything, but by fine-tuning. Otherwise, there's little for a SS class to offer in a Buff-friendly party, especially as a thaumaturge and especially since even the renegade/oppressor can get Spell Twisting options and go for a build with high crit/arpen/power, thus completely disregarding the recovery.
Don't bother, umsche. The guy has proven over and over again that all he appears to be here for is hostility.
When you have nothing smart to add, attack the guy, that'll do it, no? Even when one of the best CW ACTers show you how much underperforming CW actually is compared to a ...well...tanky class (???) you still gonna throw "StormSpell is ok". In that case, why do you even care? In case you didn't read my previous statements, I don't really care for the damage itself, however I'd like to have more options to choose from when I build a high-crit CW, which is a reasonable, logical and rewarding thing to do, especially with things such as Vorpal Enchantment. However, it makes no sense nowadays to take it since it doesn't crit that much, only within a margin of a 7-9% mistake when it actually crits the 0 damage.
One Aura of Courage OUTPERFORMS the Storm Spell by a solid amount of around +50% for a 2k-3k IL CW
I think CWs were more fun to play with the pre mod4 meta, gather mobs then destroy them with the big ball.
Meaning that you only need good recovery and AP build and then you're godlike, futhermore meaning that you'd call at least 2 CW's in a PT to do the very thing furthermore implying that there would be room just for one more DPS class which would most certainly be the one that's outmatching CWs by at least 50-60% dps wise (not always the smartest thing, especially with mobs that insta-kill anything and especially now after OPs got their blues bubble jammed down). Yeah, I'm not with you on this one since I would need to drastically change my build and such a thing would totally lead me off the game since I do not seek fun anymore in being a |)amn vacuum cleaner leaning on the Singularity from a distance, playing with one hand. I DID that, It was boring.
Dude, I want all CWs to deal more damage... I switched to MoF because debuffs offer more overall damage than pure dps in a good group.
I do not understand you, you go from A to B to C in 1 point 3 sec. So you want more CC at all times, but then you actually want more DPS for everyone, and then you want the situation to remain the same because increasing the MoF's damage would still make the MoF a better choice for the Party Buff/Debuff. Where does the pure DPS class of a CW come into that big altruistic picture of yours? I know where. NOWHERE. Because, in fact, you do not care because I'm not even sure that you know what you want for yourself.
Plus this is a topic about increasing CW damage, not just about unnerfing Storm-spell, you hijacked it that way cause you think it's the only solution even though there are others and the fact that it's never going to happen, just like the unnerf of GWF's deep wound never happened.
If you need 100.000 AD to respec back into SpellStorm I will send it to you just so that you stop writing this nonsense. You seem VERY keen to stop the feature to return to it's normal state and we all know it was because of the outperforming synergy with the LM set.
If I was to switch back to SS, I wouldn't want Storm Spell to be my best source of damage. I didn't like that much in mod 4-5.
That much is obvious. You have some old freaky vendetta against the changes in mods 3-4-5. This is why you are biased and this is why it's so easy for me to see your biased actions. But, hey, I'm not gonna go into that since I already see that you're one angry MoF who hates the Storm Spell crits. And yet, they say I'm the angry one. Must be the avatar. Ta-ta.
Just an ending note :
"In an ideal world, I'd also appreciate not being dependent on the same two class features."
How does this even make logic? You only get to choose two features for yourself, unless you're a ninja who changes them at all times for whatever reason... With that on mind, when in the history of the Neverwinter was any class performing within the margin of same DPS/same effectiveness? I do not recall such a thing. Nor I recall that all features were equal. Something will always perform better than something else.
With THAT in mind, why not just the thing that we all got used to and we all are ready to take on willingly? That's why I do not understand you people who oppose the StormSpell crits, you want miracles to happen and the fact is that it never happened in the history of Neverwinter. If it wasn't for the StormSpell crits you'd oppose something else having high damage. Well guess what, your ideology is the reason the game's at the state it is now, since you do not allow things to bloom.
"I don't like the storm spell because I don't like the way it performed in prevous mods"
Well guess what? I don't like disintegrate spell, but I'm not gonna go and say to make it unable to crit and thus destroy one of the best single-target spells for a CW. Just do what's reasonable, maybe increase it's ICD by a sec or two "in an ideal world". Not slam it to the ground. But, hey I do not see that you hate on other things that do a lot of damage. I bet that you really enjoyed the LM set now. Was that also the CW feature now? Hm? Hypocrites.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
If you need 100.000 AD to respec back into SpellStorm I will send it to you just so that you stop writing this nonsense. You seem VERY keen to stop the feature to return to it's normal state and we all know it was because of the outperforming synergy with the LM set.
I've got enough of those respec tokens but thanks mate.
Surely I'm not clear enough whit my statements, I'm all okay for SS to deal more damage than MoF since they don't debuff as much, what they actually do now.
I agree CWs could deal more damage since they underperfom compared to other classes, but the buff should be given to all CWs not just SS.
I would buff either overall damage hence weapon damage, or encounter damage, which is the core of CWs gameplay.
Edit : I really enjoy the proccing stuff, that makes it very interesting to me since it's like a mini-game withing a game. And it's usually party-friendly, which makes it a big plus since this is a MMORPG.
It is what makes me invested into playing it as a Wizard. The shining art example in it is that it actually require intellect and time investment.
"How to get to that particular proc in order to do exactly that when I press this" - Do you not see the beauty of it? That's what CW play is all about for me. It's not like "Put on StormSpell and begone with it", there's far more to it than meets the eye. You can give all the builds for the best CW damage out there, but if you do not play it with fine-tuning, you're going to underperfom drastically. In the end it's all about the knowledge and timing.
So, why diss the procs?
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
edited April 2016
Anyone remembers those times when we had to push enemies down or control them while the dps (rogue in that time) burst the boss, while the tank helped with the attention of ads, gathering them for us, and the support was taking care of everyone?
I dont remember threads of "CWs need more dmg" in those times because everyone had something IMPORTANT to do. Now everything is a DPS race, and that is the problem. Only DPS cares.
I feelt like SUPERMAN, when I was the only CW in the group, and the boss whent smooth thanks to my contribution in control, and everyone did his work.
You misinterpreted "in an ideal world", "I would" and "the same two". What I actually was expressing was that I'd love to see 3-4 viable class features per paragon path with each having its own place and merit in various distinct situations and builds. And I don't mean each of these should have an equal impact all the time. I'd love to see a variety of builds that can potentially perform at eye level. Will that ever happen? I don't know. Was this happening in the past? I think so, but I'm neither very sure nor do I really care about the past, at least with regard to the matter at hand. I care about the current state and where the future may take us. So yes. My annotation does "make logic" I would say.
As for GFs being amongst the highest hitting classes at the moment: I don't think that buffing all classes to their level or that of currently overperforming SWs is the solution to make people happy. I think that rebalancing those two classes would be the better route. Yeah - you might say that this is too much work and will never happen and I would agree to some extent. But yet again, this would be MY point of view on things, my opinion. I never claimed that this is THE way to go or phrased this as a request, as you tried to put in my mouth.
Furthermore - when did I say "Storm Spell is OK"? If anything, I find it overperforming. And before you jump on me again for claiming that I want CWs' damage nerfed, read my first paragraph again. I find it offending that you argue with accusations or assumptions and put words in my mouth.
On a side note - I happen to know both the GF and Sharp quite well. Freya/snoo isn't your ordinary GF. There probably is only a hand full of GFs that can pull off what you can see in that ACT parse. If at all. Have you compared your damage post the Lostmauth nerf to other classes such as GWFs? Suddenly performing roughly at eye level, right? I'd say that's fairly balanced. To conclude and repeat myself - I'd just love to have the routes that CWs can go to perform on the current level changed up a bit (see above).
Cheers
Post edited by wixxgs1cht on
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
You misinterpreted "in an ideal world", "I would" and "the same two". What I actually was expressing was that I'd love to see 3-4 viable class features per paragon path with each having its own place and merit in various distinct situations and builds. And I don't mean each of these should have an equal impact all the time. I'd love to see a variety of builds that can potentiall perform on eye level. Will that ever happen? I don't know. Was this happening in the past? I think so, but I'm neither very sure nor do I really care about the past, at least with regard to the matter at hand. I care about the current state and where the future may take us. So yes. My annotation does "make logic" I would say.
As for GFs being amongst the highest hitting classes at the moment: I don't think that buffing all classes to their level or that of currently overperforming SWs is the solution to make people happy. I think that rebalancing those two classes would be the better route. Yeah - you might say that this is too much work and will never happen and I would agree to some extent. But yet again, this would be MY point of view on things, my opinion. I never claimed that this is THE way to go or phrased this as a request, as you tried to put in my mouth.
Furthermore - when did I say "Storm Spell is OK"? If anything, I find it overperforming. And before you jump on me again for claiming that I want CWs' damage nerfed, read my first paragraph again. I find it offending that you argue with accusations or assumptions and put words in my mouth.
On a side note - I happen to know both the GF and Sharp quite well. Freya/snoo isn't your ordinary GF. There probably is only a hand full of GFs that can pull of what you can see in that ACT parse. If at all. Have you compared your damage post the Lostmauth nerf to other classes such as GWFs? Suddenly performing roughly at eye level, right? I'd say that's fairly balanced. To conclude and repeat myself - I'd just love to have the routes that CWs can go to perform on the current level changed up a bit (see above).
Yeah sure Agathe, compared to most dps GFs, it won't look like that, but if you compare the average dps gf (assuming such a thing exists, dps gfs at the moment are outliers) to the average dps CW assuming a similar skill level, it should look like that. And yes, nerfing other classes is an option.
Also, something I would REALLY like to point out is that storm spell is not overperforming, its actually only slightly better than other class features that are available, which is why Teh Roa (a MoF Thaum) compares so closely to SS CWs. The main reason that SS is interpreted as overperforming, is because it shows up in the combat log, as a proc. Imagine if Chilling presence showed up as a proc in the combat log, how large a portion of your DPS it would appear as, far larger than SS for sure and yet nobody complains about chilling presence, because you cannot see it as actually being there, its a buff. Arcane presence is only slightly worse than storm spell if you test it, the same is true of swath, the advantage storm spell has over both of those though is that its immediate damage, where as to use swath+CP you need to apply smolder through finicky methods (which is why MoFs do not do it) and for Arcane presence, you need to build up arcane stacks, which gimps your dps outside of boss fights. If storm spell is over performing, than chilling presence is blatantly broken.
You misinterpreted "in an ideal world", "I would" and "the same two". What I actually was expressing was that I'd love to see 3-4 viable class features per paragon path with each having its own place and merit in various distinct situations and builds.
Spoken like a true politician to me. You already have this, though. It's about how you BUILD your biggest potential, not about what's served to you on a silver platter so that you don't really have to think about it. Those options that you can choose from now - It just happen that they're not as DPS oriented as the biggest DPS oriented features. But this is not why we're here, though. We do not care about the variations. We're already playing as the Jack of All Trades practically at all times. If this is not obvious I give up!
And I don't mean each of these should have an equal impact all the time. I'd love to see a variety of builds that can potentiall perform on eye level. Will that ever happen? I don't know. Was this happening in the past? I think so, but I'm neither very sure nor do I really care about the past, at least with regard to the matter at hand. I care about the current state and where the future may take us.
"On eye level". You mean, on the casual level. Well, you SHOULD care since this is the reason why we're here and this is the reason why even your opinion, as latent as it comes, also pontificates itself into a dogmatic form of sorts. So, what, you want one thing to be like 47%, the other to be 49%, the third to be 53%? You can still achieve that, it just takes a lot of time and investment. Nobody's telling you that you must take a certain feature or a paragon. If that's not obvious then I really do not know what else to tell you.
As for GFs being amongst the highest hitting classes at the moment: I don't think that buffing all classes to their level or that of currently overperforming SWs is the solution to make people happy. I think that rebalancing those two classes would be the better route.
I have a hard time arguing something when you use "balance" where things need to get fixed, and especially since you state this :
There probably is only a hand full of GFs that can pull of what you can see in that ACT parse. If at all.
I mean, you just feed me with all the contradictory stuff to the point that whenever i try to explain a pile of contradictory, three new monuments rise up leading to more illogical statements : O how can you possibly keep this up>>>?
a) So, you want things to go in similar damage "to the eye", calling upon the "balance" (a nice way to call upon the nerf of SW and GF, the class that JUST got a boost, wasn't even a whole week yet).
b) You're FINE with a GF pulling more than a million damage per one hammer since "he can swaggypull it that way", but when Wizards utilize such endeavors it's "not equal to the eye". Hm.
c) If you added 3 x Smolder + a Critical Strike Storm Spell feature (and just for fun), you'd still equal the average damage that GF made there. You would not over-empower it. Let's not forget, smolder + storm-spell do not calculate well, but I just wanted you to have a somewhat picture of just what you're stating here.
d) It ain't my concern that a GF can pull such a feat by using his/hers brain to do so! That's only commendable. The issue here is that CWs are underperforming and especially one of the best features right now for the SpellStorm paragon. Yet, you come and say that Storm Spell "outperforms".
Furthermore - when did I say "Storm Spell is OK"? If anything, I find it overperforming.
Do you honestly not see how biased you sound now? So, a dedicated CW community should not pull-out equal damage to a GF, but a friend of yours as you state should do feats like that because "it's really hard to pull that out and only a handfull of blablabla". I mean, wow.
Furthermore - when did I say "Storm Spell is OK"? If anything, I find it overperforming. And before you jump on me again for claiming that I want CWs' damage nerfed, read my first paragraph again. I find it offending that you argue with accusations or assumptions and put words in my mouth.
I don't think that you realize what you're writing tbh. You just acknowledge that Storm Spell overperforms, but you don't want CWs damage nerfed. Am I missing something?
I'm absenting from further discussion. My apologies.
Edit : In case someone wonders why the "sudden" Storm Spell burst...of comments, please be aware that it was not my intention to spread it's manifesto, rather there was a topic merging which dealt with the specific feature in mind i.e. Storm Spell feature. This clarifies my position to some extent in case you wonder.
Post edited by c1k4ml3kc3 on
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I was talking about the comparison between Control Wizard and War Wizard. According to rulebook PHB, the former is mainly designed to control enemies while the latter is designed to do full-time nuking.
All major mmos has nuke wizards and I aint talkin' about those self cutting emos! I am talking about the real Arcane Damage!
Please give the CW an arcane based spellstorm renegade build option that does not force one to waste points on cold based buffs. I prefer lightning over ice magic.
I would love to see more classic D&D spells.
This may be a little off topic, but I would also love to see more caster classes. I love playing magic users and there are only a few options for them in NW.
Comments
a) People needed to drastically change their builds.
b) People needed to adapt a new technique.
c) Singularity was not used anymore and GWF tears were shed.
d) MoF tears were also shed due to the Eye of the Storm + Storm Spell.
People to this day still use Icy Terrain in order to gain procs, that's just one aspect of the CW rotation of spells and it is by far the weakest damage dealer out of all spells.
You're stating that CWs relying on Storm Spell was awful. This leads me to believe that you do not understand just how much CWs have been nerfed over the previous two years, disabling their abilities to actually crit.
That's like saying "Since CWs play so good they don't need to crit on several of their abilities", and here you propose an increase to the actual damage itself instead on just one aspect that EVERYONE AND THEIR GRANDMA got used to.
Playing melee CW is not risk free and as such it is completely justified, especially since
a) CWs are a squishy class
b) Life-Steal got nerfed
c) Are not a top three DPS classes
d) Million other reasons that I can find
So, umsche, do you main the Spell Storm control wizard?
I think CWs were more fun to play with the pre mod4 meta, gather mobs then destroy them with the big ball.
Jack-of-all-trades style probably isn't for wizards. I would rather see the nuker wizard (War Wizard) be introduced than see thaumaturge be buffed. Although thaumaturge enables Control Wizard to do some more damage, Control Wizard is not born to nuke after all. So it would be better that the nuker do the nuking job and Control Wizard concentrates on crowd control.
MoFs are DoTs, SSs are burst. Always been like that and it will always remain to be like that.
Also, don't tell me how MoFs are not leaning on the features since that would be a major lie. How would you feel if the features that you lean on get nerfed to the ground? Exactly.
This is the issue with you MoF guys, you always tend to diss the SS class without realizing that not every paragon tree is the best and this goes for all classes around. Name me 10 GWF that chose Iron Vanguard? No sane GWF will do that next to a GF and OP. Makes no sense.
Also, you openly admitted that you'd hate to see the SpellStorm class having more damage. Question is - why don't you open the topic where you will ask the Devs to increase the smolder damage? What stops you? Me perhaps? The rest of the CW community? FCOL.
As for D&D-wise, I think your remark is thought-provoking. There have been many times when I asked myself if this really is D&D or if this really is meaningful while I was doing those tedious daily quests. I feel that I have became so robotic and confused. Maybe I should think about it and make my decision seriously.
Care to show the breakdown of powers being used by the GF and yourself? That's some effectiveness.
If all wizard damage would get increased then both storm spell as well as smolder would deal increased damage. Everyone wins. Where is the problem with that?
They did the same with guardian fighters in mod 6, just increased all the damage.
Then when the damage is normalized, the devs can take a look at what individual powers are underperforming compared to one another.
I switched to MoF because debuffs offer more overall damage than pure dps in a good group.
And I will quote Myself since you don't read : I agree completely on an increase in CW damage, just not on a single portion of the CW like you want.
Plus this is a topic about increasing CW damage, not just about unnerfing Storm-spell, you hijacked it that way cause you think it's the only solution even though there are others and the fact that it's never going to happen, just like the unnerf of GWF's deep wound never happened.
If I was to switch back to SS, I wouldn't want Storm Spell to be my best source of damage. I didn't like that much in mod 4-5.
Frankly, after having played some more hours since the lost nerf I don't think we need much of a damage buff. I'd just love to see some powers being brought up to speed. In an ideal world, I'd also appreciate not being dependent on the same two class features.
GF:
Me:
I do have focused wizardry. My rotation for goristro was Icy rays (tab), RoE, Disintegrate, CoI. The reason Icy terrain and sudden appear in the log is because I used them in phase 1, which seems to be counting as part of the goristro fight for some reason.
a) It will lead to multiple bugs, like it did before thus making clustafunky synergy with enchantments of various sorts
b) It will not help CWs in the longer run since devs will scribe-it-down as "Job Complete!" and leave it like that for some time
c) SS CWs will still underperform in AoE combat, while MoFs will remain regular and a better choice party-wise as they are now
d) The single-target damage will remain the obvious choice, thus undermining the possibility to gain from pure INT builds
e) CWs are still going to be looked down upon
f) Developers DO NOT increase damage per orb, but rather per feat/encounter recovery (as we've seen with the skills such as Spell Twisting and the recent GF damage increase for around 20%). Haha classic, find me Iron Vanguard that deals more damage than a Swordmaster and I will agree with you. Until you do so, you will not post biased opinions that "Game is terrible because your paragon choice is not equal to another paragon choice". If anything, they should be as different as possible, not as similar as possible since that destroys their purpose. Hell, why we don't make ALL the classes to deal equal damage and be equally tanky since we're so effin altruistic in all this?
The game needs FIXING, there's no denial in that, but not by increasing the overall damage of everything, but by fine-tuning. Otherwise, there's little for a SS class to offer in a Buff-friendly party, especially as a thaumaturge and especially since even the renegade/oppressor can get Spell Twisting options and go for a build with high crit/arpen/power, thus completely disregarding the recovery. And nobody played them since the other class outperformed the GF by a very large margin. So, they went full PvP. "When the damage is normalized". - I can't believe I just read that.
And they can't do it now because of... dragons? When you have nothing smart to add, attack the guy, that'll do it, no?
Even when one of the best CW ACTers show you how much underperforming CW actually is compared to a ...well...tanky class (???) you still gonna throw "StormSpell is ok". In that case, why do you even care?
In case you didn't read my previous statements, I don't really care for the damage itself, however I'd like to have more options to choose from when I build a high-crit CW, which is a reasonable, logical and rewarding thing to do, especially with things such as Vorpal Enchantment. However, it makes no sense nowadays to take it since it doesn't crit that much, only within a margin of a 7-9% mistake when it actually crits the 0 damage.
One Aura of Courage OUTPERFORMS the Storm Spell by a solid amount of around +50% for a 2k-3k IL CW Meaning that you only need good recovery and AP build and then you're godlike, futhermore meaning that you'd call at least 2 CW's in a PT to do the very thing furthermore implying that there would be room just for one more DPS class which would most certainly be the one that's outmatching CWs by at least 50-60% dps wise (not always the smartest thing, especially with mobs that insta-kill anything and especially now after OPs got their blues bubble jammed down). Yeah, I'm not with you on this one since I would need to drastically change my build and such a thing would totally lead me off the game since I do not seek fun anymore in being a |)amn vacuum cleaner leaning on the Singularity from a distance, playing with one hand. I DID that, It was boring. I do not understand you, you go from A to B to C in 1 point 3 sec. So you want more CC at all times, but then you actually want more DPS for everyone, and then you want the situation to remain the same because increasing the MoF's damage would still make the MoF a better choice for the Party Buff/Debuff. Where does the pure DPS class of a CW come into that big altruistic picture of yours? I know where. NOWHERE. Because, in fact, you do not care because I'm not even sure that you know what you want for yourself.
I'm evil and selfish. Come join me. Ahahah. If you need 100.000 AD to respec back into SpellStorm I will send it to you just so that you stop writing this nonsense. You seem VERY keen to stop the feature to return to it's normal state and we all know it was because of the outperforming synergy with the LM set. That much is obvious. You have some old freaky vendetta against the changes in mods 3-4-5. This is why you are biased and this is why it's so easy for me to see your biased actions. But, hey, I'm not gonna go into that since I already see that you're one angry MoF who hates the Storm Spell crits. And yet, they say I'm the angry one. Must be the avatar. Ta-ta.
Just an ending note :
"In an ideal world, I'd also appreciate not being dependent on the same two class features."
How does this even make logic? You only get to choose two features for yourself, unless you're a ninja who changes them at all times for whatever reason...
With that on mind, when in the history of the Neverwinter was any class performing within the margin of same DPS/same effectiveness? I do not recall such a thing. Nor I recall that all features were equal. Something will always perform better than something else.
With THAT in mind, why not just the thing that we all got used to and we all are ready to take on willingly? That's why I do not understand you people who oppose the StormSpell crits, you want miracles to happen and the fact is that it never happened in the history of Neverwinter.
If it wasn't for the StormSpell crits you'd oppose something else having high damage. Well guess what, your ideology is the reason the game's at the state it is now, since you do not allow things to bloom.
"I don't like the storm spell because I don't like the way it performed in prevous mods"
Well guess what? I don't like disintegrate spell, but I'm not gonna go and say to make it unable to crit and thus destroy one of the best single-target spells for a CW. Just do what's reasonable, maybe increase it's ICD by a sec or two "in an ideal world". Not slam it to the ground. But, hey I do not see that you hate on other things that do a lot of damage.
I bet that you really enjoyed the LM set now. Was that also the CW feature now? Hm? Hypocrites.
I'm just expressing my opinion, which is launching powers only to procs stuff is boring, not fun. I've got enough of those respec tokens but thanks mate.
Surely I'm not clear enough whit my statements, I'm all okay for SS to deal more damage than MoF since they don't debuff as much, what they actually do now.
I agree CWs could deal more damage since they underperfom compared to other classes, but the buff should be given to all CWs not just SS.
I would buff either overall damage hence weapon damage, or encounter damage, which is the core of CWs gameplay.
Edit : I really enjoy the proccing stuff, that makes it very interesting to me since it's like a mini-game withing a game. And it's usually party-friendly, which makes it a big plus since this is a MMORPG.
It is what makes me invested into playing it as a Wizard. The shining art example in it is that it actually require intellect and time investment.
"How to get to that particular proc in order to do exactly that when I press this" - Do you not see the beauty of it? That's what CW play is all about for me. It's not like "Put on StormSpell and begone with it", there's far more to it than meets the eye. You can give all the builds for the best CW damage out there, but if you do not play it with fine-tuning, you're going to underperfom drastically. In the end it's all about the knowledge and timing.
So, why diss the procs?
I dont remember threads of "CWs need more dmg" in those times because everyone had something IMPORTANT to do. Now everything is a DPS race, and that is the problem. Only DPS cares.
I feelt like SUPERMAN, when I was the only CW in the group, and the boss whent smooth thanks to my contribution in control, and everyone did his work.
This is root of the problem IMHO
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You misinterpreted "in an ideal world", "I would" and "the same two". What I actually was expressing was that I'd love to see 3-4 viable class features per paragon path with each having its own place and merit in various distinct situations and builds. And I don't mean each of these should have an equal impact all the time. I'd love to see a variety of builds that can potentially perform at eye level. Will that ever happen? I don't know. Was this happening in the past? I think so, but I'm neither very sure nor do I really care about the past, at least with regard to the matter at hand. I care about the current state and where the future may take us.
So yes. My annotation does "make logic" I would say.
As for GFs being amongst the highest hitting classes at the moment: I don't think that buffing all classes to their level or that of currently overperforming SWs is the solution to make people happy. I think that rebalancing those two classes would be the better route. Yeah - you might say that this is too much work and will never happen and I would agree to some extent. But yet again, this would be MY point of view on things, my opinion. I never claimed that this is THE way to go or phrased this as a request, as you tried to put in my mouth.
Furthermore - when did I say "Storm Spell is OK"? If anything, I find it overperforming. And before you jump on me again for claiming that I want CWs' damage nerfed, read my first paragraph again. I find it offending that you argue with accusations or assumptions and put words in my mouth.
On a side note - I happen to know both the GF and Sharp quite well. Freya/snoo isn't your ordinary GF. There probably is only a hand full of GFs that can pull off what you can see in that ACT parse. If at all. Have you compared your damage post the Lostmauth nerf to other classes such as GWFs? Suddenly performing roughly at eye level, right? I'd say that's fairly balanced. To conclude and repeat myself - I'd just love to have the routes that CWs can go to perform on the current level changed up a bit (see above).
Cheers
Yeah sure Agathe, compared to most dps GFs, it won't look like that, but if you compare the average dps gf (assuming such a thing exists, dps gfs at the moment are outliers) to the average dps CW assuming a similar skill level, it should look like that. And yes, nerfing other classes is an option.
Also, something I would REALLY like to point out is that storm spell is not overperforming, its actually only slightly better than other class features that are available, which is why Teh Roa (a MoF Thaum) compares so closely to SS CWs. The main reason that SS is interpreted as overperforming, is because it shows up in the combat log, as a proc. Imagine if Chilling presence showed up as a proc in the combat log, how large a portion of your DPS it would appear as, far larger than SS for sure and yet nobody complains about chilling presence, because you cannot see it as actually being there, its a buff. Arcane presence is only slightly worse than storm spell if you test it, the same is true of swath, the advantage storm spell has over both of those though is that its immediate damage, where as to use swath+CP you need to apply smolder through finicky methods (which is why MoFs do not do it) and for Arcane presence, you need to build up arcane stacks, which gimps your dps outside of boss fights. If storm spell is over performing, than chilling presence is blatantly broken.
Those options that you can choose from now - It just happen that they're not as DPS oriented as the biggest DPS oriented features. But this is not why we're here, though. We do not care about the variations. We're already playing as the Jack of All Trades practically at all times. If this is not obvious I give up! "On eye level". You mean, on the casual level.
Well, you SHOULD care since this is the reason why we're here and this is the reason why even your opinion, as latent as it comes, also pontificates itself into a dogmatic form of sorts. So, what, you want one thing to be like 47%, the other to be 49%, the third to be 53%? You can still achieve that, it just takes a lot of time and investment. Nobody's telling you that you must take a certain feature or a paragon. If that's not obvious then I really do not know what else to tell you. I have a hard time arguing something when you use "balance" where things need to get fixed, and especially since you state this : I mean, you just feed me with all the contradictory stuff to the point that whenever i try to explain a pile of contradictory, three new monuments rise up leading to more illogical statements : O how can you possibly keep this up>>>?
a) So, you want things to go in similar damage "to the eye", calling upon the "balance" (a nice way to call upon the nerf of SW and GF, the class that JUST got a boost, wasn't even a whole week yet).
b) You're FINE with a GF pulling more than a million damage per one hammer since "he can swaggypull it that way", but when Wizards utilize such endeavors it's "not equal to the eye". Hm.
c) If you added 3 x Smolder + a Critical Strike Storm Spell feature (and just for fun), you'd still equal the average damage that GF made there. You would not over-empower it. Let's not forget, smolder + storm-spell do not calculate well, but I just wanted you to have a somewhat picture of just what you're stating here.
d) It ain't my concern that a GF can pull such a feat by using his/hers brain to do so! That's only commendable. The issue here is that CWs are underperforming and especially one of the best features right now for the SpellStorm paragon. Yet, you come and say that Storm Spell "outperforms". Do you honestly not see how biased you sound now? So, a dedicated CW community should not pull-out equal damage to a GF, but a friend of yours as you state should do feats like that because "it's really hard to pull that out and only a handfull of blablabla". I mean, wow.
I don't think that you realize what you're writing tbh. You just acknowledge that Storm Spell overperforms, but you don't want CWs damage nerfed. Am I missing something? .
Neither is thefabricant your ordinary CW, yet he gets dusted behind like a baby pulling out only 2 Ice Knife dailies before the whole thing was over.
I don't wanna argue this anymore. It's bothersome to fight the mass of contradictions.
Edit : In case someone wonders why the "sudden" Storm Spell burst...of comments, please be aware that it was not my intention to spread it's manifesto, rather there was a topic merging which dealt with the specific feature in mind i.e. Storm Spell feature.
This clarifies my position to some extent in case you wonder.
All major mmos has nuke wizards and I aint talkin' about those self cutting emos!
I am talking about the real Arcane Damage!
2,3million crushing surge at-will? wow!
I would love to see more classic D&D spells.
This may be a little off topic, but I would also love to see more caster classes. I love playing magic users and there are only a few options for them in NW.