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  • scathiasscathias Member Posts: 1,174 Arc User

    No, it is Into the Fray, Hallowed Ground AND all of the level 60 sets that are the "exploits" on top of the buffs and debuffs the classes already have. Even after the LM nerf, the Haste nerf, and the OP nerf, these items and powers will still make content trivial. I would like to see the end of speed runs and "bosses" dying in less than 15 seconds. No need for LM set, a Pali or Haste DC, just a GF and a Righteous DC.

    You also are using the word exploit when what you clearly meant based on what you said "I would like to see the end of speed runs and "bosses" dying in less than 15 seconds." is overpowered. You feel these items and the ways that buffs/debuffs and mechanics interact are overpowered.
    Mod 5 sets are still working exactly the same way that they have since mod 0 (and HV was nerfed to not stack anymore remember) and buffs and debuffs still interact the same way. If the devs want to change how this stuff works then fine with me. But again, overpowered is not an exploit
    Guild - The Imaginary Friends
    We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    scathias said:

    Guys...everyone experienced 1000 times , how ITF combined with AS, HG and some more feats/powers sillilly overperforms, melting bosses in seconds.

    Discussing or denying it just makes me shake my head.

    The mechanic wich is based on the DR a GF gains is absolutely silly and has to be fixed.

    On one side player cry for more challenge and in the next thread they cry if things are mentioned as an exploit.



    NWO is an exploit in lots oft cases , every day everyone is doing it, most even doesn't know about exploiting.

    Bonding stacks up to 6+ ..exploit

    Rebuff from companion gaining up to 150k ...exploit.

    Lolset...exploit.

    Warlock puppet...exploit

    Warlock MF...exploit

    OP bubble+binding oath ..exploit

    ITF + DR buffs....exploit

    Gift oft hasze itself was exploited excessivly in PVP combined with special PVP fest.

    And 100's more.



    You do not really think that devs intendet all those stuff working this way, do you?

    The fact you do not read any statements from devs side doesn't mean it's WAI.

    It only tells me, they can't fix stuff in time and do not have a clue about lot's of absurdly broken stuff.

    I think you have confused the word exploit with another common word, overpowered. not a single one of the things you have listed there is controllable by the player. They are all very strong when used to their greatest potential, and indeed they can be overpowered but they are in no way exploits. The devs are free to change how anything in this game works if they think it is too strong, and they do so as is demonstrated by the nerf of Lostmauth and Haste. I fully expect that ITF will see a rework or nerf in the coming months, that doesn't make it an exploit though.
    I really think it´s you that seems to be confused a bit...
    you need 15 seconds to melt orcus , endcontents last boss even can´t get into first phase wich is either his bubble, the crystals or his shouting...that´s by sure intended by the game designer, wake up please

    wikipedia
    In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, :o game system :o , rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner :# not intended by the game's designers :# .[1] Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them.
  • scathiasscathias Member Posts: 1,174 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    Did I not just agree with you that this stuff is overpowered when it all combines with each other? How is having overpowered stuff that the devs gave us an exploit?
    Guild - The Imaginary Friends
    We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    Because I pretty much doubt it is intended to gain a > 500% damageboost from all those stacking buffs and twohit bosses.
    I doubt that feats and powers from warlock or hunter should deal 200 to 300 Million hits.
    I doubt that a warlock puppet deals more damage in a bossfight than a strikerclass.
    I doubt that paladind should deal 300 Million hits to SHdragon or 300 Million heals.
    Stop fooling us and yourself please.
  • scathiasscathias Member Posts: 1,174 Arc User
    Despite what the forums love to say, the devs are not stupid. They know full well what buffs do in this game and they know why they work like they do. They stuffed enough buffs into this game and made them multiply together. 500% is a potential result when you get enough people working together.
    I can't speak to HR doing 300 mil, i have never seen that before. as to MF, I'd be just as happy as you if that got fixed. It's been around since the SW was introduced though and they have never bothered. That isn't to say it is WAI, but bugged isn't exploit.
    How much damage would a damnation build do if it's puppet couldn't be buffed up? if you increase the base damage too much then you get a killing machine in pvp but still isn't effective in pve. as it stands puppet is pretty cheesy but it does competitive damage to other striker classes yes?
    Binding Oath is fixed on preview, another case of the devs implementing balance where they wanted it. And who really cares about 300 million heals. there is nothing to heal that is that large. if it was 300k the result would be the same. if there was a mechanic that did damage based on the size of the heal that could be cause for concern, but most feats that deal damage based on healing only proc off the HP that was actually healed, so that limits you to 200k or so.
    Guild - The Imaginary Friends
    We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
  • phoenix1021phoenix1021 Member Posts: 532 Arc User
    scathias said:

    Despite what the forums love to say, the devs are not stupid. They know full well what buffs do in this game and they know why they work like they do. They stuffed enough buffs into this game and made them multiply together. 500% is a potential result when you get enough people working together.
    I can't speak to HR doing 300 mil, i have never seen that before. as to MF, I'd be just as happy as you if that got fixed. It's been around since the SW was introduced though and they have never bothered. That isn't to say it is WAI, but bugged isn't exploit.
    How much damage would a damnation build do if it's puppet couldn't be buffed up? if you increase the base damage too much then you get a killing machine in pvp but still isn't effective in pve. as it stands puppet is pretty cheesy but it does competitive damage to other striker classes yes?
    Binding Oath is fixed on preview, another case of the devs implementing balance where they wanted it. And who really cares about 300 million heals. there is nothing to heal that is that large. if it was 300k the result would be the same. if there was a mechanic that did damage based on the size of the heal that could be cause for concern, but most feats that deal damage based on healing only proc off the HP that was actually healed, so that limits you to 200k or so.

    Do you realize how much work it would be to change buffs from being multiplicative to additive? It's not just changing some *s to +s, especially if the dev team changed and didn't program the original code. That's why it's hard to say if these things are intended, and it's also why I doubt a change like that is likely to happen. Same with the puppet, some say the damage is intended, but maybe it's just not understood how the high damage comes to be.
    But calling this an exploit is a bit weird. This is not in the realm of one-shotting tiamat or creating AD out of thin air... And there will always be speedruns, you can't stop them. Someone will always find the best combination of gear, buffs and powers to conquer content. And there is nothing wrong with it really.
  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,141 Arc User
    Boosting the signal on the profession nodes question which my whole guild were asking.

    Do masterwork nodes grant x4 (or x3 as it would be in some editions of D&D) resources during double professions. If they don't, this is a MASSIVE kick in the teeth for any guilds who've built and levelled an explorers guild as anybody else can just hoard GMs and spend them during the event.
  • imperiousshiniimperiousshini Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 199 Arc User

    Boosting the signal on the profession nodes question which my whole guild were asking.

    Do masterwork nodes grant x4 (or x3 as it would be in some editions of D&D) resources during double professions. If they don't, this is a MASSIVE kick in the teeth for any guilds who've built and levelled an explorers guild as anybody else can just hoard GMs and spend them during the event.

    Great job asking mino!
  • rapo973rapo973 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 831 Arc User
    edited April 2016


    wikipedia
    In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, :o game system :o , rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner :# not intended by the game's designers :# .[1] Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them.

    This is really controversial. This definition refers to "the use of a bug or glitches [...]". It means that the reposibility is on the player's shoulders.
    Taking into account the "fair use policy" and the definition above, it's true that:
    - GoH Ap gain is an exploit
    - OP bubble is an exploit
    - GoH + Op bubble is the worst exploit ever
    - ITF is an exploit
    - ITF+AS+HG is another worst exploit ever
    - LM set is an exploit (many DPS classes are involved)
    - SW puppet is an exploit
    - SW MF is an exploit
    - TR perma stealth is an exploit
    - GF one-shot kill in PvP is an exploit
    - HR perma daze/stun is an exploit
    - .....sorry the list is too long...i stop here.

    Due to the all above exploits, all the players in this game should be banned: they all (if not all, many, many, many players) use extensively at least one (or more) exploit from the list above.
    But here we have a logical fallacy : if all players are using them, no one is really taking advantage over someone else even if it's in a manner not intended by the game's designer. Here you have a BIG problem: whatever class you choose, you end up to an exploit. PvP should not exists.

    Imo a design problem should not be managed downloading the responsibility on the players. They use what the game give them: if there's an overpower LM set, they will use it. If a strong interaction exists between GF/DC, it will be used and so on.
    Reasoning along this path leads nowhere.

    Many players want these powers nerfed and it can be a possibile way to manage it. The consequence would be dramatic for this game (example: some players from my guild are going to quit the game due to the OP/LM set nerf).
    Another option can be to create challenging contents even if you use such powers (discussed here for example: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1213704/why-challenging-endgame-content-is-good-for-the-game). In this case low IL/casual players will start crying about the difficulty of the game.
    This is a chicken and egg problem and currently it's managed by kicking & slapping here and by giving a carot there, hoping that the players will keep on spending $.



    Post edited by rapo973 on

    Oltreverso guild leader
    Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
  • fernandoeliseifernandoelisei Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 76 Arc User
    @terramak Theres some thing about lag in Well Of Dragons and StrongHold ? In cannot play in WoD or SH Dragon Fligth. The lag in all game are so frustant. Think about this please, theres a lot of players left the game because lag.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    rapo973 said:


    wikipedia
    In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, :o game system :o , rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner :# not intended by the game's designers :# .[1] Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them.

    This is really controversial. This definition refers to "the use of a bug or glitches [...]". It means that the reposibility is on the player's shoulders.
    Taking into account the "fair use policy" and the definition above, it's true that:
    - GoH Ap gain is an exploit
    - OP bubble is an exploit
    - GoH + Op bubble is the worst exploit ever
    - ITF is an exploit
    - ITF+AS+HG is another worst exploit ever
    - LM set is an exploit (many DPS classes are involved)
    - SW puppet is an exploit
    - SW MF is an exploit
    - TR perma stealth is an exploit
    - GF one-shot kill in PvP is an exploit
    - HR perma daze/stun is an exploit
    - .....sorry the list is too long...i stop here.

    Due to the all above exploits, all the players in this game should be banned: they all (if not all, many, many, many players) use extensively at least one (or more) exploit from the list above.
    But here we have a logical fallacy : if all players are using them, no one is really taking advantage over someone else even if it's in a manner not intended by the game's designer. Here you have a BIG problem: whatever class you choose, you end up to an exploit. PvP should not exists.

    Imo a design problem should not be managed downloading the responsibility on the players. They use what the game give them: if there's an overpower LM set, they will use it. If a strong interaction exists between GF/DC, it will be used and so on.
    Reasoning along this path leads nowhere.

    Many players want these powers nerfed and it can be a possibile way to manage it. The consequence would be dramatic for this game (example: some players from my guild are going to quit the game due to the OP/LM set nerf).
    Another option can be to create challenging contents even if you use such powers (discussed here for example: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1213704/why-challenging-endgame-content-is-good-for-the-game). In this case low IL/casual players will start crying about the difficulty of the game.
    This is a chicken and egg problem and currently it's managed by kicking & slapping here and by giving a carot there, hoping that the players will keep on spending $.



    Agree, btw. I do abuse these things myself every day.
    I never read anything about being called an official exploiter by cryptic, but they do know about the abusive tendecies >50% of their customers got, but they can´t fix it and can´t ban the hole server...so they just keep quiet i assume.
    I can´t understand those players you talk of, who quit a game the moment they get their class fixed and may have the very first chance to create a new build, totally different from this permabubble nonsense, wich is so boring... no heal, no skill, no teamwork needed. I won´t miss them.
  • rapo973rapo973 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 831 Arc User
    edited April 2016


    I can´t understand those players you talk of, who quit a game the moment they get their class fixed and may have the very first chance to create a new build, totally different from this permabubble nonsense, wich is so boring... no heal, no skill, no teamwork needed. I won´t miss them.

    Some of them had already created/followed new builds in the past due to other nerfs (one of them is a 4.2k gwf). They spent resources (time/money) to do it and they are not willing to spend again. Other players don't accept the nerf: easy and simple.
    In general I dont argue about the decisions taken by another player (even if I don't agree) and I take them as a fact. Indeed It's a fact that some players quit for whatever reason (stupid or not) everytime there's a nerf .
    So be careful when nerfs are decided...


    Oltreverso guild leader
    Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    rapo973 said:


    I can´t understand those players you talk of, who quit a game the moment they get their class fixed and may have the very first chance to create a new build, totally different from this permabubble nonsense, wich is so boring... no heal, no skill, no teamwork needed. I won´t miss them.

    Some of them had already created/followed new builds in the past due to other nerfs (one of them is a 4.2k gwf). They spent resources (time/money) to do it and they are not willing to spend again. Other players don't accept the nerf: easy and simple.
    In general I dont argue about the decisions taken by another player (even if I don't agree) and I take them as a fact. Indeed It's a fact that some players quit for whatever reason (stupid or not) everytime there's a nerf .
    So be careful when nerfs are decided...

    most player I know quit because they got bored by unchallenging PVE content and broken PVP, caused by these broken things in game.
  • imperiousshiniimperiousshini Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 199 Arc User
    when are those blue changes going live? or the elemental campaign?
  • mstrssihrmstrssihr Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 545 Arc User
    anim3k said:

    @terramak couple weeks a go you copy my feedback, any answers from devs? most important are "zen promotions" to get companions not avablive in normal way, and the second "made rings +5 BOE"? or maybe a little icreasing drop rate%?

    Wow YES please =
    - Major Peachy Bottom * Gutbuster's Brigade -

    "Last request - microtransactions for alllll old skins for zen/weapon appearance changes, 500 zen to make ur wep glow the color/enchant you want it... You will make more off that one item than any other zen item ever made." freshour

    "beckylunatic" Gateway AH should have column headers to sort by buyout, bid, end time, quantity, etc. These disappeared iirc with the module launch. It's obnoxious.
  • doublea2014doublea2014 Member Posts: 49 Arc User

    btw. is there any way that we might get the same auras on our paladin as xbox has`?
    And is there anything planned to improve some skills from paladin which could improve the groups dmg/defense instead of only being flashy and buffing the palading only?
    I am talking about skills like Circle of power, sacred weapon, divine touch, relentless avenger etc. There is really no need for them to be there unless you want to annoy a lot of group members.

    Circle of power: Only improves the paladins dmg and dr as oath of protection while also blocking the view on the ground which makes it harder to see red circles. Also no one really needs that much more healing because as of right now its more than enough to only use your at will heal skill when speccing the oath of devotion.
    Sacred weapon: the improvement is quite noticeable but again only for yourself and the duration is either very short or the number of times very limited. Might be much better if its time based only and improves everyones dmg. everything else can be kept as a nice addition.
    Divine touch: The shield provided from speccing into oath of protection is very nebulous. Its not clear how much or how good that shield will protect yourself. First make it more clear like 30% of your max hp are granted as a shield for 8 seconds. Second maybe you can make it a party wide buff for 4-5 seconds for half the amount? For the oath of devotion effect i suggest you could add another nice DR party buff?
    relentless Avenger: Its very annoying for all dmg classes if a thrash mob group already pulled together is pushed into every direction just because the paladin tries to troll the party by claiming that he does dmg with that or because its one of the best ap encounter filler for both Paragon trees. Its very annoying and the push on mobs should be removed completely and or changed into a 1 sec stun.

    lol that's why as a paladin im smart enough not to use those powers you just stated above, kind of given when you get yelled at for using Lag powers in Dragon runs and Throwing mob powers in Tiamat, you learn really quick what powers not to use, or what powers not to use when and where, Circle Of power for example should only be getting used in dungeons when you need more tanking, other then that its a waste, Sacred weapon wasted points spent, and relentless avenger a waste due to the fact you chunk Ads everywhere, lol no comments on divine touch lol
  • deathbeezdeathbeez Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 789 Arc User
    Major bug with enchantments not working with Guardian Fighter's at-wills.
    http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1214594/bug-on-crushing-surge-gf
  • kitkathdkitkathd Member Posts: 286 Arc User
    I just can't stand some of their methods. Like take Leadership as an example. I had absolutely 0 problem with the removal of AD. What drives me crazy is they didn't rebalance it after the fact so that now its literally a complete disaster to a new player trying to level it. It literally is only used by leadership farms now. Cause its virtually impossible to level with the outrageous exp/reward ratios all across the board.

    It seems very much like the meetings this company has about balance and bug fixing are conducted by people who don't even play the game. They can't even claim lack of testing when this giant stinkbomb rolls out on thursday cause we all have been screaming in forums and on preview about it for weeks now.
  • scathiasscathias Member Posts: 1,174 Arc User
    Kit, it is actually easier to level from lv 21-25 inclusive of leadership then it is to lv from 1-20 inclusive. and the rewards from lv 21-25 are also considerably better than from 1-20. Yes leadership is a real pain to get to lv 21 but from there on it really pays off, especially since the tasks are all set up for doing once or maybe twice per day so they are very non micro manage as well.

    Leadership gives some fantastic rewards once it is leveled and so a decent time investment in leveling it is not wrong. The overall time to level could be a shorter though. I think it takes so long that many new players give up because they don't realize the long term benefits, and they don't know about using gateway for professions so that they can do it faster, and while they are not logged in
    Guild - The Imaginary Friends
    We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    terramak said:


    • Devoted Clerics have been granted a Feat Respec.
    This is nice....but....

    This personally does not affect me - I am a Righteous DO, so nothing has really changed as far as I am concerned - however, this will be appreciated by many players who previously were Virtuous "Haste DCs", and will now be looking for a new purpose in life.

    However...

    Assuming that this free feat respec is primarily meant for that group, it may not be quite sufficient, as many of them may want to switch paragons as well (Annointed Champion <-> Divine Oracle). I would have suggested a full respec to any DC who currently has points in Gift of Haste. Other DCs (like myself) really have no need for a respec (and should not get one IMO), but those most affected may be rethinking their entire build, and that includes not only feats, but also paragon and powers.

    On a slightly different subject...several DC powers are still broken and while some have been broken for a long time, other issues are more recent. Overall that class works well enough to be usable (In fact, I consider the DCs to be the best balanced class in the game right now - neither overpowered nor underpowered, and it has actually several different, useful/viable builds - more so than any other class, I think.

    However, there are still bugs - the last time I counted, I had 24 issues, ranging from powers and feats being completely broken to minor tooltip errors. I (and, I assume, quite a few other DCs), would be happy to put together a "state of the DC" document, listing the issues, if you want, but for now, I'll just mention what I consider the biggest one - Divine Glow (which is one of the most used DC powers) does not proc weapon enchants that specifically say they should trigger on encounter use (Dread for example).
    Post edited by adinosii on
    Hoping for improvements...
  • rapo973rapo973 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 831 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    terramak said:


    • Devoted Clerics have been granted a Feat Respec.
    Assuming that this free feat respec is primarily meant for that group, it may not be quite sufficient, as many of them may want to switch paragons as well (Annointed Champion <-> Divine Oracle). I would have suggested a full respec to any DC who currently has points in Gift of Haste. [...]

    On a slightly different subject...several DC powers are still broken and while some have been broken for a long time, other issues are more recent. [...]
    I agree. Very reasonable arguments.


    Oltreverso guild leader
    Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
  • imperiousshiniimperiousshini Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 199 Arc User



    Do we still not know if those with Explorer's Guild will get x4 the mastercraft resources from nodes during the X2 Profession Resources and XP event??
    adinosii said:

    terramak said:


    • Devoted Clerics have been granted a Feat Respec.
    This is nice....but....

    This personally does not affect me - I am a Righteous DO, so nothing has really changed as far as I am concerned - however, this will be appreciated by many players who previously were Virtuous "Haste DCs", and will now be looking for a new purpose in life.

    However...

    Assuming that this free feat respec is primarily meant for that group, it may not be quite sufficient, as many of them may want to switch paragons as well (Annointed Champion <-> Divine Oracle). I would have suggested a full respec to any DC who currently has points in Gift of Haste. Other DCs (like myself) really have no need for a respec (and should not get one IMO), but those most affected may be rethinking their entire build, and that includes not only feats, but also paragon and powers.

    On a slightly different subject...several DC powers are still broken and while some have been broken for a long time, other issues are more recent. Overall that class works well enough to be usable (In fact, I consider the DCs to be the best balanced class in the game right now - neither overpowered nor underpowered, and it has actually several different, useful/viable builds - more so than any other class, I think.

    However, there are still bugs - the last time I counted, I had 24 issues, ranging from powers and feats being completely broken to minor tooltip errors. I (and, I assume, quite a few other DCs), would be happy to put together a "state of the DC" document, listing the issues, if you want, but for now, I'll just mention what I consider the biggest one - Divine Glow (which is one of the most used DC powers) does not proc weapon enchants that specifically say they should trigger on encounter use (Dread for example).
    It doesn't affect me as well since I am Avatar but those who use the AP-Boost heals, are Anointed Champions as far my knowledge goes to go back to Faithful paragon path they need to use the foresight (as a must) which means that they should respec to the Divine Oracles..
This discussion has been closed.