Why isn't PvP itl vs itl

erics19223 · April 2016

We have 3k and higher desimating ppl make it fun for all not just a few guilds thx

zachisrising · April 2016

I agree

metalbba · April 2016

I agree the stat gaps in pvp run from everyone dies from a light breeze to trying to beat a wall at tennis. If we could add like 200 itl sections to +70 pvp the consistency of pvp matches would make the game more enjoyable.

ellisar · May 2016

I play a GWF, and I constantly come up against classes that should be squishy and easy prey if I can get to them, who I cannot even scratch in pvp, it makes no sense at all. Then there are the tankier classes who could literally walk away grab a snack, take a bathroom break come back and still not be dead.

They need to bring back gearscore or a new method of calculating a characters overall power and then break it into sensible brackets. They need to count in boons, and additional power points, and lock gear when queing to prevent abuse. I don't know how hard this would be to code, but I know it would make pvp far far more balanced then it is currently; which is not at all. Even if keeping item level and separating item level brackets at lvl 70 item level 1-1500, 1501-2000, 2001-2500, 2501-3000, 3001-3500, 3501+ would help, not as good as a more accurate way of gauging a characters overall power but still more balanced then now, where a 2000 itl is vs a 3500 itl which is no chance for the 2000 and zero challenge for the 3500.

As is I get maybe 1 in 10 matches that are evenly matched, and these rare matches are really fun, it's really a shame that this is the exception and not the rule. The other 9 are either my team steamrolling the other team, or us getting demolished. It's like if a bunch of level 20's queued for Orc Assualt and then got thown into the Epic Shores of Tuern, it would be just as ridiculous as most of these match-ups are in pvp.

nickjdowe · May 2016

I believe blow outs will happen anyway because of premades. If a team has the optimal class diversity and all members are 100% PvP builds then the pug team is SoL for the most part.

The down side to this kind of bracket system is that it will just add another form of twinking. It removes the incentive to raise your iLevel to meet the play level of your opponents and will actually drive some players/classes to undergear in order to beat up on lower tier players.

Safest form of bracket style PvP would be by using a player ranking filter that would assign a numerical value to your position on the leaderboards. Teams would be balanced according to overall team score. For that to work you would need a working leaderboard which we've never had. This would also cause long wait times for premade teams of high ranking to sit in the queue waiting for a rival team (equal ranking score) to queue against them. Making solo queuing more desirable, however this could cause you to have to be on opposing team from your guild mates or intended party.

I would suggest a functioning leader board bracket system. With 2 brackets. Team leaderboard and Solo leaderboard. You could advance in the ranking respectively by either queuing solo or with a premade. Individual players could not advance in the solo rankings if they queued as a team and vis versa. High ranking teams would have to schedule matches with other high ranking teams in order to avoid long queue times. A good majority of matches would consist of high and low ranked players being balanced out during the queue system to make the matches more even.

*btw there's been an ongoing discussion about 5 man teams that are only good because of their class synergy and play style. It's been said that a few of these groups would all get rekt in 1v1 scenarios if it weren't for the factor I just mentioned. So a solo and team leaderboard structure would benefit all players by allowing the best of the best players to rise in a solo leaderboard while allowing the premade groups the bragging rights of leading their own leaderboard. A lot of the best players according to the current state of PvP, never ever solo queue because it would hurt their rankings and their k/d ratio. So if those guys want to rise in the solo leaderboard they are going to have to stop holding hands.

fb11445868222191 · May 2016

I would like to see near gear score based opponents. You get a 2000 up against 3000 or 4000 and there is nothing you can do /:

nickjdowe · May 2016

fb11445868222191#2951 said:
I would like to see near gear score based opponents. You get a 2000 up against 3000 or 4000 and there is nothing you can do /:

Some classes really don't come together til 3k+, what would be the incentive for a 2k TR to gear up past 3k if he is dominating everyone in his bracket? ILevel brackets just seem like a new form of Twink PvP.

nickjdowe · May 2016

poopoomcmuffns said:
A 2k warlock or gwf i know for sure, get almost rekted by other classes at the same il.

exactly

ltsmithneko · May 2016

theslotharmy#3268 said:

poopoomcmuffns said:
A 2k warlock or gwf i know for sure, get almost rekted by other classes at the same il.
Not GWF

Depends what powers they use Im pve and still kill pvp players that are high geared, comes down to skill with how you balance your stamina if your a pve gwf running into pvp. Then again if your a pvp gwf high geared you won't die. ;p

ltsmithneko · May 2016

Since im a pve gwf im Swordmaster and use Battle fury(stamina regen is very very helpful), hidden daggers (dem crits), florish (stun).

Like I said im pve these are the powers I use when I pvp for feeders. I would alter them a bit if I was pvp though, but I preffer pve.

nickjdowe · May 2016

We are talking about undergeared or low iLevel GWF vs another class of the same level. A 2.4il GWF will get stomped out by several classes of the same level. However the GWF really shines at around 3.4iL+. Those same classes that gave him trouble are much better fights now. We are not talking about builds just the stats a GWF needs to be competitive aren't available until he gets closer to bis. Other classes like TR and HR or even a DC can perform well at lower item levels because they already have what they need. Yes they will improve at higher iLevel but not as significantly as the SW or the GWF that need time to mature. This basically means that if your CW or HR is owning people at an iLevel of 2800 why would he ever gear up to the 3k bracket and have to fight matured SWs and GWFs? In essence this creates a new form of Twink PvP.

I stand by the 2 leader board system for Party Leader vs Solo Queue Leader. (This would prove that some people are only good because of the company they keep.) People (who really want to challenge themselves) can solo queue and the ones that just want guild bragging rights can queue in a party. 2 separate leaderboards would reflect the results, and the queue system could sort players by their rank when solo queuing to make the team's even and sort party teams by rank so that 4K teams don't get pared with 2ks.

ellisar · May 2016

I don't see a leader board as the best solution, I've seen them in other games and they can be manipulated. These also take longer to establish a true rating, so newcomers with tricked out gears would have how many matches of owning low geared players before they establish there true rank in the system, all along getting easy matches up to the top at the expense of all the average and lower geared players? You'd also have to solo queue until you and your teammates are BiS or close to it. I'd imagine it'd be right back to unfair matches because people could manipulate a teams cumulative ranking with a single low scored player that can still contribute teamed with high scored players.

Brackets would work but everything making your character more powerful needs to be given a point value. If people want to sit in a bracket so what, nothing to stop others doing the same, and they will have plenty of fair competition if that is the norm, which I doubt. Most people would not because most people want to continually improve their toon. Being at the low end of the bracket will be more challenging than being in the middle or the top of the bracket, but it would be loads fairer than what we have now, lock gear/boons/powers on queue and they can't manipulate their score. I also don't think queue times would be longer, I think they'd be similar, and possibly in the future shorter; as more people would play, and more often due to much much fairer matches. To be clear I'm advocating a new more accurate system for scoring a characters power just as much as the brackets.

No solution will be perfect, no solution will make the people that hate pvp because there ego is too big to lose to another player happy. But the system as is, is garbage and needs to be changed.

manyvengeance · May 2016

Well, an actual leaderboard could be really beneficial, not the random thing we have atm, then you can separate characters in brackets, e.g. we could have brackets like most of the other multiplayer games out there, bronze, silver, gold, diamond and a Top tier, you play the first 5-10 matches to classify up to Gold (depending on your own performance and win rate), then you need to climb to the higher tiers, by winning matches and taking into account your KDA, ppl in Bronze tier can get paired up against ppl at Silver, Silver could fight either against some Bronze or even Gold, and so on, if there's a Gold on your team, there's also a Bronze, something like that. That way, who would care if you have an awesome KDA if you only stay on Bronze, ppl will actually fight to achieve victory.

It's a brilliant idea having separate leaderboards for solo and team, just adding on to that, the solo q would be awesome to do with a partner, but that partner will need to be one tier superior or one tier inferior than you, that way you avoid a Bronze player getting wins without doing anything. This way ppl will feel like they're actually progressing in PvP, not like "I won, aaaaaaaaand... I'm moving down the standing pages

" lol

kitten · May 2016

Yay broken Q Broken Q. This is why people stop PVP after 60 tier. You get fair play right until level 70. Why Neverwinter why. Cause that guy spent more than my mortgage payment to gear up? So let him go fight other 3000-4000. I simply play this game and should be up agianst my peer(same level) group. Wake up Neverwinter.

daisynyc4100 · May 2016

Keep in mind, the problem with item level 'brackets' is you can just take all your gear off to manipulate your IL lower and put it back on after you've Queued up. I recall people doing something similar for Tiamet back in mod5 to reach the required (10K gear score (?)..or whatever the min req was). They would bump up their GS with random useless stuff and then drop back down once inside.

satniteeduardo · May 2016

IL is not all there is though. Guild boons make a difference. PVP spec v PVE spec gear. If you really want it fair then it would need to be based on some measure of player skill but its probably too late to implement it now.

reignmaker · May 2016

I saw a really good idea someone had. It was to calculate people's highest gear score and that's where you'd be placed so you couldn't wear lesser gear unless you've never put on greater. So you'll always be paired up with people who have high gs if you ever had one.

xxxsfalxxx · June 2016

Something like a system where it mostly puts PvP-only leaderboard-topping premades into matches with the same kind, not against low tenacity low IL casuals low or not on the leaderboards. Without such a system, it seems it's just going to be the same lopsided garbage it is most of the time; if the teams are anywhere balanced, it's an accident. What's the point anyway of putting people or teams who are on the top couple of pages of the leaderboards up against those simply looking for a fun match or for the two main AD rewards and shards for the guild. Those playing 20-45 minutes of PvP in a day in matches against those who spend most or all of their time in PvP, why have that system?

If anyone was interested in equalizing this, there appears a lot of ways to help do that. IL+Tenacity, pro league queue versus pickup-ish only queue, brackets, whatever. Since it hasn't been equalized though, that would seem pretty self-explanatory that nobody is interested in equalizing it. Especially if the leaderboard system itself is broken, etc.

cscriv79 · June 2016

If they put to IL segregation then people would just sit at their class perfect IL and not progress further, being beaten on by higher IL leads some ppl to spend money to get higher geared not realising a lot of it is skill or build based.

sundance777 · June 2016

cscriv79 said:
If they put to IL segregation then people would just sit at their class perfect IL and not progress further, being beaten on by higher IL leads some ppl to spend money to get higher geared not realising a lot of it is skill or build based.

Or stop playing PvP cause it is not player vs player, it is more like gear vs gear...

timmorton · June 2016

Instead of ranking PVP by IL, why not have 2 different PVP arenas you can enter. A casual one for anyone at any item level who can play and grind it out to get better and a ranked one for anyone who wants more of a challenge and bragging rights. Much like in Destiny. That way people will still have incentive to get better no matter which division they are in. This would eliminate the chances of a pre made running into a pug group. I know it is not fun being the pug group and can't see it being much fun for the killing group either especially when half the match no one even gets off the platform any more. You could also keep rankings for ranked section and start a tournament for a PVP cup. Increasing the want and desire to make it to ranked section after casual. If they ran tournaments on a regular basis that would increase the PVP population, making it more exciting. The better you do in the tournament the better rewards you get. I think this would solve a lot of problems. If I saw that tournaments were being won and the items they got from it, that would motivate me to get out of casual and join ranked. I'm not asking for handouts I'm asking for more comparable battles in PVP no matter who you are.

joshrdajoker35 · June 2016

They had a combat league on pc. I don't think it went over as well as they thought. Everyone needs to just wear their big boy/girl pantys when Qing even the 4K gets the shty end of the q sometimes

theguiido · July 2016

erics19223 said:
We have 3k and higher desimating ppl make it fun for all not just a few guilds thx

I completely agree with you. Fighting people with no gear (pugs) is boring. 1000 to 0 games is no competition. For both the winning team and the losing team alike.

The only problem with this is for people like me.

I am a 3.5k GF playing with near maxed out characters-maxed out characters. If the games law was set so 4k's can only play with 3.8's or 3.7's play with 3.5's, how would that make any sense for me? If I wanted to play with my friends. You can't just expect me to jump that much in item level in a day. Especially since i am not a serious P2W player lol.

"Why not make it based on Item Level?"

The problem with this is many things.

First off, it could be exploited easily as I could simply take off 4 pieces of gear going in, and then when I am in a game with new PvP players I put on my Lionsmane gear and 2 shot kids. Doesn't seem like fun, right? because thats currently the situation. Another problem with this is that queueing against people with similar item level does not mean you are similar at all. I can have PvE gear and be a 3k and you can be a PvP player at 3k. Who's going to win, the person with tenacity or the person without...... Exactly.

So what are some of the solutions?

Since your solution is a great solution to the problem, it would cause much negative feedback and would make "end-game" Veteran PvP players very angry as players would not be able to play with friends or make a comp/premade. PvP as it is isn't even that catered to that much anyway.

The best solution is a new PvP Queue System specifically designed for PvP to base it upon ratio and gear type. Notice how I did not say "Item Level" this means (Assists, Kills, Deaths and Gear like Battlefield,Grim,Guild,Lionsmane or perhaps no gear at all) This would put all the people new to PvP into groups of lower geared/ no gear PvP players, and players with higher kills for example and grim gear would match up with people with that specific type of armor, additionally the Queue can find closer matches based upon your wins, losses, and assists throughout the game for a more crisp, and pin point match on a similar player like you.

"Cant this be exploited?"

Everything can be. This would lower it by 90% because I don't think any one would find it fun to move all rank 12's and Transcendent Enchantments to grim gear which costs a lot of gold, and to pug stomp people all day lol. This is the best option that Cryptic Studios can make as my suggestion would fix this problem.

Hope this helps.

Hey @kreatyve what do you think? (;

kreatyve · July 2016

@theguiido I don't know why you are asking me, I don't pvp, lol. Personally, I think they should normalize gear for PvP (make everyone wear exactly the same gear and enchants) and make it be more skill and build based than who has the bigger wallet. That's just my opinion though.

theguiido · July 2016

kreatyve said:
@theguiido I don't know why you are asking me, I don't pvp, lol. Personally, I think they should normalize gear for PvP (make everyone wear exactly the same gear and enchants) and make it be more skill and build based than who has the bigger wallet. That's just my opinion though.

hahahaha

mordekai · July 2016

If there are PVP lobbies tiered and based on a scaling reward system then premades would be disinclined to go after weak pugs.

Say there are several post 70 queues,ranging from "pugs for fun" (0 to minimal Tenacity) to "so lets see how good you really are..." (no holds barred) where the rewards are incremental based on the quality of the opponent. The greater the group IL (IN PLAY )disparity, the less you win.

As to the scaling and people queuing in HAMSTER gear and switching up , having 4 tiers would offer a way to circumvent this...

Quite simply once you have won X number of games more than you've lost at a certain tier you are qualified at that tier.
Playing at a lower tier would further reduce your rewards.

If you've been regularly winning at tier 4 and decide to go bully some plebs at tier 1 you get squat for your efforts. There should be no reward for doing something that presents no challenge.

It would require a special sort of person to deliberately burn themselves in higher tier games in order to show off at a lower one...

And for those who start to get overtaken at higher tiers, when their win\loss ratio drops, they become legitimately eligible for the lower tier again without a penalty...

ETA of course the ratio would not extend back too far, probably the last ten or so games. So you don't end up with someone trying really hard to break the next tier having to win 35 on the bounce to qualify. and the drop out would be one more than the same number the other way.
Eg. if you win 6/10 most recent games you hit the tier. To lose the tier you would need to lose 7 out of your next 10.

The specific numbers would be judged and beta'd to see what works, but the principle works.

mordekai · July 2016

Obviously, not all top end PVPers are looking for a simple walk over so they can dance on the fallen bodies of their less empowered victims.
But it certainly seems like there are enough who are.

And let's face it, if games were more balanced, those top enders who do crave parity as much as the weaker players, they'd have it.

sh00termcl0vin · July 2016

"normalizing" gear in PVP is a terrible idea. As with any game that has character progression it just removes any incentive to improve your character so you can become more competitive. I started out pretty much like everyone else with low item level and earned my gear and rewards by playing the game. If you don't want the grind then this game is definitely not for you.

As for pug stomping that is more the matchmaking systems fault. Premade teams should never be matched against pugs as a first choice. There does need to be some tweaking done there. I play in 5 mans pretty frequently and there is nothing less fun than playing against a pug when your queueing up because the match is a forgone conclusion. I'm pretty sure most of the other teams feel the same way.

Bottom line is progression needs to exist in pvp in order to keep people playing towards a goal and PW making money. The changes you suggest do neither. A better suggestion would be to fix the current queue system and balance the classes better rather than trying to get some Neverwinter socialist pvp system going.

snypes2888 · July 2016

I think that they should make tenacity enchantments. That way people who wanna get into PvP could use current gear to get started. They don't have to give much. And dragonflight gear with tenacity gems would be good. Because lionsmane would still be better do to being able to use other enchantments.

armadeonx · July 2016

My thought is: Get rid of pvp gear completely.

Add a standard tenacity rating automatically to all players on entering any pvp environment.

This at the very least removes the need to grind through weeks of death just to become competitive. The auto-tenacity should account for the increased offence stats on pve gear - i.e. everyone gets around 4k tenacity - and make it apply to piercing damage!!!

elrondknight · July 2016

joshrdajoker35 said:
They had a combat league on pc. I don't think it went over as well as they thought. Everyone needs to just wear their big boy/girl pantys when Qing even the 4K gets the shty end of the q sometimes

Yeah... I tried that after the NCL. Went for 6 weeks without earning enuff points to qualify for rewards. No thanks. You can have it.

Why isn't PvP itl vs itl

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