greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,134Arc User
There is no honor in PvP. If you have reason (Blood Among the Runes, Ice Rush, etc) to go into the PvP areas you are fair game and too often PvPers will take advantage of the fact that you're there for a fast kill. Once flagged being outside of the PvP area you are still a target until you can get that **** washed off.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
There is no honor in PvP. If you have reason (Blood Among the Runes, Ice Rush, etc) to go into the PvP areas you are fair game and too often PvPers will take advantage of the fact that you're there for a fast kill. Once flagged being outside of the PvP area you are still a target until you can get that **** washed off.
It depends on what you mean by honor. PVP zones are where you are able to complete PVP boon tasks. If noone enters then noone gets these boons. They may not matter to PVEers but PVPers try to accomplish everything to be as close to completely BIS as possible. So if the only people entering these zones are the occasional, casual PVEer in hopes to complete a quest or get Black Ice then they will quickly be found by PVPers and killed to make progress towards those boons.
Now, if there were large Open world fights because of either 1) Contested mobs (like demons or even black ice beholder/rhemoraz) or 2) Because Black Ice domination was announced and people could flood the zone then everyone has a chance to get kills because there will invariably be people on both sides who are PVPers and everyone will benefit. Now, lesser geared players or no tenacity players are more likely to die, however they have at least a 50/50 chance for real benefit and they may make progress towards boons in the process. Now compare that with a certain death with 0% chance of profit when you enter the PVP zones now.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
1) Place the demonic fights inside PVP zones so that they become "contested" mobs. I.E. your side has to fight to win the loot which then gives it an interesting flair different than just doing PVE, it becomes a mixture.
This is not something I would want to see. Not everyone likes doing PvP. The demons are a necessary evil with the current state of the game and rewards. IWD as a whole is a necessary evil, but a lot of players avoid having anything to do with the PvP aspect of the zone.
This is sort of exactly the reason I'm suggesting it. You sometimes need to give people incentive to enter PVP zones.
It's a nice thought, but it doesn't address the real issue. The non-whale people that would be willing to PvP simply cannot afford to keep up with the pointless power creep. It's not a matter of enticing people to enter a zone. It's the activity that's meaningless to them.
Which again is why you entice them, if you give them rewards for doing it and make it easier to get tenacity gear (as I also addressed) then it makes it more palatable, or if the rewards are good enough, enticing.
No, it would not entice them. It would drive players away. For some players, no reward is worth dealing with PVP. I cant understand why real PVPers would want to lure or entice players to do content they don't want to do. How much fun can it really be to fight players unable, unmotivated, or unwilling to even fight back? How much fun would it be if we reversed it? And put rewards and content that PVPers need locked behind mandatory role-play? It's a situation where no one has fun and no one wins.
1) Place the demonic fights inside PVP zones so that they become "contested" mobs. I.E. your side has to fight to win the loot which then gives it an interesting flair different than just doing PVE, it becomes a mixture.
This is not something I would want to see. Not everyone likes doing PvP. The demons are a necessary evil with the current state of the game and rewards. IWD as a whole is a necessary evil, but a lot of players avoid having anything to do with the PvP aspect of the zone.
This is sort of exactly the reason I'm suggesting it. You sometimes need to give people incentive to enter PVP zones.
It's a nice thought, but it doesn't address the real issue. The non-whale people that would be willing to PvP simply cannot afford to keep up with the pointless power creep. It's not a matter of enticing people to enter a zone. It's the activity that's meaningless to them.
Which again is why you entice them, if you give them rewards for doing it and make it easier to get tenacity gear (as I also addressed) then it makes it more palatable, or if the rewards are good enough, enticing.
Tenacity gear is easy. Just do Siege with your guild and you can have it in less than a week. Well, almost. Gear isn't the issue. The power creep is: R12s, trancendents, R140 artifacts.. there's just no competing with that from a F2P perspective. You can put all the rewards you wish into this, but if the experience simply isn't fun people will leave as soon as they got what they wanted. We've already seen that in the NCL. A ton of people went for the mount at the start. At 80% of the event it was like it never existed. Rewards were gained, people went through the horrible experience for it and had absolutely no desire to keep PvPing.
You want to entice people to PvP? Start by making it a fun and fair game for everyone involved. Then we'll discuss rewards.
A few things to note. FIrstly try getting SH siege to pop and then we'll talk about how easy it is to get tenacity gear. Secondly rank 12's mean less than having mythic artifacts which in turn means less than having rank 8 SH boons. It's not rank 12's that are making end game players OP it's the SH boons that give huge stat boosts. I would venture to say I'd rather have rank 7's and a SH boon than rank 12's and no boon. Thirdly, if there are enough f2p players they can overwhelm even the best geared PVPer. This is why open world offers the best likelyhood for fun. They may die, but they will also get kills because there will be PVEers and PVPers on each side which makes it better for them than a PM vs Pugs in domi.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
1) Place the demonic fights inside PVP zones so that they become "contested" mobs. I.E. your side has to fight to win the loot which then gives it an interesting flair different than just doing PVE, it becomes a mixture.
This is not something I would want to see. Not everyone likes doing PvP. The demons are a necessary evil with the current state of the game and rewards. IWD as a whole is a necessary evil, but a lot of players avoid having anything to do with the PvP aspect of the zone.
This is sort of exactly the reason I'm suggesting it. You sometimes need to give people incentive to enter PVP zones.
It's a nice thought, but it doesn't address the real issue. The non-whale people that would be willing to PvP simply cannot afford to keep up with the pointless power creep. It's not a matter of enticing people to enter a zone. It's the activity that's meaningless to them.
Which again is why you entice them, if you give them rewards for doing it and make it easier to get tenacity gear (as I also addressed) then it makes it more palatable, or if the rewards are good enough, enticing.
No, it would not entice them. It would drive players away. For some players, no reward is worth dealing with PVP. I cant understand why real PVPers would want to lure or entice players to do content they don't want to do. How much fun can it really be to fight players unable, unmotivated, or unwilling to even fight back? How much fun would it be if we reversed it? And put rewards and content that PVPers need locked behind mandatory role-play? It's a situation where no one has fun and no one wins.
Much of the content is locked behind what many PVPers don't like. PVE. We had to do massive amounts of PVE to get SH boons to be BIS for PVP. So while I understand your argument please know that we have been forced to do massive amounts of what we don't like so that we can be well equipped to do what we do like. This argument is not one you want to use.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Something else I always see in these discussions as well is the idea of "whales" or "P2W' vs "F2P" players. This is all nonsensical reasoning for a multitude of reasons. Firstly without "P2W" or "whales" this game would already be dead. Who pays to keep the lights on in NW? Who pays the devs salary? Certainly not the person who may make one purchase or less their entire experience. I can't tell you how stupid it is to hear people think they are insulting others by calling them p2w. It's like having someone pay for your all inclusive vacation and then complaining that the same person took a vacation at a nicer resort with their own money. It's literally biting the hand that feeds your gaming experience.
Secondarily, you don't have to p2w to become BIS. But you do have to put in time into getting your economy in place and into building your toon taking every advantage of every resource at your disposal. So you can either pay to win or play to win or you can complain at everyone else who is doing better than you.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
my main complain as always is the total lack of balance.. i mean i get it takes work but paladins can stay like this for another day. Im getting tired of loggin in too for this very reasons.. and well maybe im a bit tired of my hr performances too.. and ambush ring...and drains... and some guilds (rayrdan staph)
overall pleased. fix the queue. insignas need to be bound on account... i mean i bought those for my hrs, i still need them on my tr...still i can only pve with my hr.
nice campaign! good job campaign guy! worst dailies in the history of gaming... are you dailies guy ok?
1) Place the demonic fights inside PVP zones so that they become "contested" mobs. I.E. your side has to fight to win the loot which then gives it an interesting flair different than just doing PVE, it becomes a mixture.
This is not something I would want to see. Not everyone likes doing PvP. The demons are a necessary evil with the current state of the game and rewards. IWD as a whole is a necessary evil, but a lot of players avoid having anything to do with the PvP aspect of the zone.
This is sort of exactly the reason I'm suggesting it. You sometimes need to give people incentive to enter PVP zones.
It's a nice thought, but it doesn't address the real issue. The non-whale people that would be willing to PvP simply cannot afford to keep up with the pointless power creep. It's not a matter of enticing people to enter a zone. It's the activity that's meaningless to them.
Which again is why you entice them, if you give them rewards for doing it and make it easier to get tenacity gear (as I also addressed) then it makes it more palatable, or if the rewards are good enough, enticing.
No, it would not entice them. It would drive players away. For some players, no reward is worth dealing with PVP. I cant understand why real PVPers would want to lure or entice players to do content they don't want to do. How much fun can it really be to fight players unable, unmotivated, or unwilling to even fight back? How much fun would it be if we reversed it? And put rewards and content that PVPers need locked behind mandatory role-play? It's a situation where no one has fun and no one wins.
Much of the content is locked behind what many PVPers don't like. PVE. We had to do massive amounts of PVE to get SH boons to be BIS for PVP. So while I understand your argument please know that we have been forced to do massive amounts of what we don't like so that we can be well equipped to do what we do like. This argument is not one you want to use.
Yea, I always love this argument. The playing field isn't equal nor was it ever intended to be. This is not some MOBA. This is a PVE game with PVP options. The game has never presented itself as a place where you can start off as a PVPer and remain one exclusive to all other content. If PVE is that toxic to you, then this is truly the wrong game for you. There are far better PVP options available. After all, explorer type players cant level up without PVE content. Roleplayers are forced to do PVE as well. Those who come here to craft or play the markets have to PVE too. Everyone here came here knowing PVE would be involved. Dont try to sell me on the argument that PVPers honestly felt that they were somehow going to be an exception to this.
Now we can argue that the options presented here are in a woeful state and need drastic improvement. And I would completely agree with you. I simply draw the line at where those options, regardless of who they cater to, become forced.
It still comes down to the same question why would anyone want to play with someone who clearly doesn't want to or is ill equipped to do so?
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
PvP is riddled with problems that make it ridiculously unfun and punishing for non-super hardcore PvPers.
1) The gear gap is just to big. If you're not BiS, you're dead meat with no chance to compete.
2) The class balance sucks. Half the classes in this game are more or less second-class citizens in PvP with little to no chance to compete against the other classes. Combined with #1, it makes PvP even less fun.
3) The PvP community itself is extremely toxic. Even for those brave enough to wade into it, it won't be long before you're receiving tells from people about how much you suck, how you should quit the game, or all the interesting things they did to your mom last night. I only wish I was exaggerating here...
Top all that off with things like Domination, GG or SH Seige being dominated by guilds who have zero interest in actually making things competitive for anything below BiS, and you give your average player literally no reason to PvP, no matter how attractive you make the rewards.
1) Place the demonic fights inside PVP zones so that they become "contested" mobs. I.E. your side has to fight to win the loot which then gives it an interesting flair different than just doing PVE, it becomes a mixture.
This is not something I would want to see. Not everyone likes doing PvP. The demons are a necessary evil with the current state of the game and rewards. IWD as a whole is a necessary evil, but a lot of players avoid having anything to do with the PvP aspect of the zone.
This is sort of exactly the reason I'm suggesting it. You sometimes need to give people incentive to enter PVP zones.
It's a nice thought, but it doesn't address the real issue. The non-whale people that would be willing to PvP simply cannot afford to keep up with the pointless power creep. It's not a matter of enticing people to enter a zone. It's the activity that's meaningless to them.
Which again is why you entice them, if you give them rewards for doing it and make it easier to get tenacity gear (as I also addressed) then it makes it more palatable, or if the rewards are good enough, enticing.
No, it would not entice them. It would drive players away. For some players, no reward is worth dealing with PVP. I cant understand why real PVPers would want to lure or entice players to do content they don't want to do. How much fun can it really be to fight players unable, unmotivated, or unwilling to even fight back? How much fun would it be if we reversed it? And put rewards and content that PVPers need locked behind mandatory role-play? It's a situation where no one has fun and no one wins.
Much of the content is locked behind what many PVPers don't like. PVE. We had to do massive amounts of PVE to get SH boons to be BIS for PVP. So while I understand your argument please know that we have been forced to do massive amounts of what we don't like so that we can be well equipped to do what we do like. This argument is not one you want to use.
Yea, I always love this argument. The playing field isn't equal nor was it ever intended to be. This is not some MOBA. This is a PVE game with PVP options. The game has never presented itself as a place where you can start off as a PVPer and remain one exclusive to all other content. If PVE is that toxic to you, then this is truly the wrong game for you. There are far better PVP options available. After all, explorer type players cant level up without PVE content. Roleplayers are forced to do PVE as well. Those who come here to craft or play the markets have to PVE too. Everyone here came here knowing PVE would be involved. Dont try to sell me on the argument that PVPers honestly felt that they were somehow going to be an exception to this.
Now we can argue that the options presented here are in a woeful state and need drastic improvement. And I would completely agree with you. I simply draw the line at where those options, regardless of who they cater to, become forced.
It still comes down to the same question why would anyone want to play with someone who clearly doesn't want to or is ill equipped to do so?
There is a lot of vitriol here, not sure why the salt. Anyway PVP and PVE when the game started held hands. In order to get the best PVP gear you had to do T2 dungeons and pray to the RNG gawds that you got the gear you wanted for the bonus you wanted. Then you could take that gear with your OP rank 7s and lesser vorpal into PVP and compete.
For most of us this was fun, we enjoyed playing in all environments together. There were a few BIS guilds out there that roflstomped using tenebrous and perfect enchants and all rank 10s but the majority of pug matches were fun. This game was advertised as an Dungeons and Dragons based MMO. It didn't state that it was only for Roleplayers, PVEers, PVPers, or Foundry creators. It had all these elements and they all fit together pretty nicely.
It's actually what happened over the course of the next few mods that ruined that. The different types of players were separated into factions and forced into playtypes that they may not have enjoyed as much. PVEers hate spending time in PVP zones because they will get wrekt, PVPers hate that PVEers pug into domi on their teams with no tenacity just for the "daily" and cause their team to lose masssively. Foundry creators have been mostly ignored for mods now despite being very active in pointing out what needs to be done to the foundry. Roleplayer by in large left the game for others, not that they are all gone, there's still a smaller active community on the server.
Now, that said, I would like to see the game come back to a point where PVP isn't the bane of PVEers existence through some changes to try and, if not level the playing field at least shore it up a bit. I would like to see changes that give PVPers more fun and incentive to run PVE besides for their SH boons, and now insignias to be BIS.
I am not here to try to create a greater divide or slaughter non tenacity under geared pugs but to try and help them rejoin what was originally a community with niches but everyone could do what they like and not have to worry about having every little item in order to feel like they could even stand to Q for PVP content.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
I am a PVE player since May 2013 and did some PVP for fun until they introduced pvp gear. Since then nothing will bring me to pvp and if you put IWD demon HEs in the open world pvp areas I will not go there. No matter the rewards, I will never go there and I am quite sure many other PVE players wouldn't do that either. Don't try to force players to do something they would rather not do just so a few players can complete some boons? Just as with stronghold pvp you had to be one of those players that finished the tasks in the first 2 weeks, because after that no one wanted to play that content any more.
If you want to finish your boons, just ask some of your friends to let themselves kill 100 times in IWD pvp areas and get it over with. No need to to force others to be cannon fodder in the least liked part of this game. Btw, you should have made the title "state of pvp" as that is your main points and over 80% of your opening post.
Tenacity gear is easy. Just do Siege with your guild and you can have it in less than a week. Well, almost. Gear isn't the issue. The power creep is: R12s, trancendents, R140 artifacts.. there's just no competing with that from a F2P perspective. You can put all the rewards you wish into this, but if the experience simply isn't fun people will leave as soon as they got what they wanted. We've already seen that in the NCL. A ton of people went for the mount at the start. At 80% of the event it was like it never existed. Rewards were gained, people went through the horrible experience for it and had absolutely no desire to keep PvPing.
You want to entice people to PvP? Start by making it a fun and fair game for everyone involved. Then we'll discuss rewards.
This. It's not about rewards. It's just not fun. Though there are some who will put themselves through hell to get rewards. Alot of people just won't bother doing it and do/play something else. Theres plenty of guilds who need conqueror shards for their guild and they would rather all go to icewind dale and all crowd into an empty BiD to get their shard than queue for PVP.
Every time I go PvP one side just gets steam rolled by the other, on most occasions. I'd rather not waste my time with it. Siege is the only map I find has more balance flow providing one team is not a full pvp guild. But the imbalances, just ruin it for people.
You have a PvEr who wants to try PvP, has no tenacy gets steam rolled, ganked and humilated, then is told they have to put up with this until they have gear to stop this from happening, and even then it may not be fun when they do.
Giving tenacy to people passively is a tiny step in the right direction. It will save people from having to change armor and reslot enchants everytime. But you will also have to re-introduce stat curves or scale down/up stats so people are more equal. The entry level vs BiS gap is soooo large, as soon as these new players get one shotted over and over all they will think about is "p2w" and just not PvP ever again.
I am a PVE player since May 2013 and did some PVP for fun until they introduced pvp gear. Since then nothing will bring me to pvp and if you put IWD demon HEs in the open world pvp areas I will not go there. No matter the rewards, I will never go there and I am quite sure many other PVE players wouldn't do that either. Don't try to force players to do something they would rather not do just so a few players can complete some boons? Just as with stronghold pvp you had to be one of those players that finished the tasks in the first 2 weeks, because after that no one wanted to play that content any more.
If you want to finish your boons, just ask some of your friends to let themselves kill 100 times in IWD pvp areas and get it over with. No need to to force others to be cannon fodder in the least liked part of this game. Btw, you should have made the title "state of pvp" as that is your main points and over 80% of your opening post.
I have a poll going to remove tenacity from gear and add it to character sheet to remove the tenacity gap. My suggestions don't "force" anyone to go into the PVP zones they simply give rewards if you decide to do so.
As for asking my friends to die 100 times, they are too busy completing SH tasks to build our guild SH or complete CN to get insignias, will you come to IWP and let me kill you? No? Likely for the same reasons I wouldn't ask them.
Thirdly, I addressed different areas of PVE and PVP, they are both aspects of the same game, if you don't like that take it up with the games' creators as it was their decision to have elements of all. I don't cry at you for PVE, don't cry at me for PVP.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
There is no salt here. I have even said that all gameplay styles are lacking and need improvement. So, yes, that includes PVP. Ive actually been trying to be all inclusive because this argument goes beyond PVP. And I feel the arguments are the same regardless of what form of gameplay you choose to focus on.
Put simply, you wont get people to enjoy a thing by forcing it on then. Moving content from one player style to another will only cause resentment.
PvP is riddled with problems that make it ridiculously unfun and punishing for non-super hardcore PvPers.
1) The gear gap is just to big. If you're not BiS, you're dead meat with no chance to compete.
2) The class balance sucks. Half the classes in this game are more or less second-class citizens in PvP with little to no chance to compete against the other classes. Combined with #1, it makes PvP even less fun.
3) The PvP community itself is extremely toxic. Even for those brave enough to wade into it, it won't be long before you're receiving tells from people about how much you suck, how you should quit the game, or all the interesting things they did to your mom last night. I only wish I was exaggerating here...
Top all that off with things like Domination, GG or SH Seige being dominated by guilds who have zero interest in actually making things competitive for anything below BiS, and you give your average player literally no reason to PvP, no matter how attractive you make the rewards.
Interestingly in the last 3 forum posts I have written they are all about trying to boost up newer potential PVP players to a more level playing ground with PVPers. Class balance, rings, drains, and broken enchants, tenacity for free for all players. Yet all I get from many posters is negativity.
You talk about toxicity, it's not just from PVPers. PVEers can be just as vile and toxic... I've been trash talked in Epic Demo for missing aiming the Gorristro as badly or worse than I have in PVP when I kill an undergeared player.
You talk about toxicity when I come to the forums and get lambasted for trying to find solutions to imbalances and problems constructively.
This is one of the most biased statements I've read from a community moderator yet. Should I simply stop trying to come up with potential work arounds or fixes for what I see in the game that needs to be addressed?
Should I simply never post about PVP again? I'm disappointed that all I get from a moderator is that we should simply give up on PVP all together. Perhaps it's too late if even those who moderate are simply throwing their hands up and saying it's all screwed let's just forget about it.
Thanks for your reply.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
There is no salt here. I have even said that all gameplay styles are lacking and need improvement. So, yes, that includes PVP. Ive actually been trying to be all inclusive because this argument goes beyond PVP. And I feel the arguments are the same regardless of what form of gameplay you choose to focus on.
Put simply, you wont get people to enjoy a thing by forcing it on then. Moving content from one player style to another will only cause resentment.
Which is how we felt with Stronghold, I tried to state this and you went all preachy on me about PVE. It was salty when I was trying to explain that both sides feel this "push" and it's not enjoyable for either side. If you look at the overall discussion though, and combine it with my other forum posts you'll see the bigger picture that I'd like to see PVP overall become more balanced and less lop sided and I don't want to "force" anything on anyone but try to include appropriate incentives in combination with rewards and gear gap closers to make it fun again.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Interestingly in the last 3 forum posts I have written they are all about trying to boost up newer potential PVP players to a more level playing ground with PVPers. Class balance, rings, drains, and broken enchants, tenacity for free for all players. Yet all I get from many posters is negativity.
You talk about toxicity, it's not just from PVPers. PVEers can be just as vile and toxic... I've been trash talked in Epic Demo for missing aiming the Gorristro as badly or worse than I have in PVP when I kill an undergeared player.
You talk about toxicity when I come to the forums and get lambasted for trying to find solutions to imbalances and problems constructively.
This is one of the most biased statements I've read from a community moderator yet. Should I simply stop trying to come up with potential work arounds or fixes for what I see in the game that needs to be addressed?
Should I simply never post about PVP again? I'm disappointed that all I get from a moderator is that we should simply give up on PVP all together. Perhaps it's too late if even those who moderate are simply throwing their hands up and saying it's all screwed let's just forget about it.
Thanks for your reply.
Well it would be nice if our community manager relayed these concerns to developers and then actually told us what they think or plan or why they are not doing x y and z. Some transparency would be nice.
But right now, all of this feedback and suggestions is like pissing into the wind.
Interestingly in the last 3 forum posts I have written they are all about trying to boost up newer potential PVP players to a more level playing ground with PVPers. Class balance, rings, drains, and broken enchants, tenacity for free for all players. Yet all I get from many posters is negativity.
You talk about toxicity, it's not just from PVPers. PVEers can be just as vile and toxic... I've been trash talked in Epic Demo for missing aiming the Gorristro as badly or worse than I have in PVP when I kill an undergeared player.
You talk about toxicity when I come to the forums and get lambasted for trying to find solutions to imbalances and problems constructively.
This is one of the most biased statements I've read from a community moderator yet. Should I simply stop trying to come up with potential work arounds or fixes for what I see in the game that needs to be addressed?
Should I simply never post about PVP again? I'm disappointed that all I get from a moderator is that we should simply give up on PVP all together. Perhaps it's too late if even those who moderate are simply throwing their hands up and saying it's all screwed let's just forget about it.
Thanks for your reply.
Well it would be nice if our community manager relayed these concerns to developers and then actually told us what they think or plan or why they are not doing x y and z. Some transparency would be nice.
But right now, all of this feedback and suggestions is like pissing into the wind.
I have actually seen some of the issues brought up by myself, and other forum posters be addressed relatively quickly and sometimes in exactly the ways it was suggested. I have even seen the devs pop in and comment on fixes they were working on or whether something was on their radar.
Simply put, the reason I keep posting here is that some of this feedback does get listened to and all I can hope to do is share some insight on issues I see that need addressed and hope that they get picked up by the devs and given some consideration. If that is pissing in the wind, then I will continue to be covered in my own urine until they stop paying any attention to these forums at all.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
I don't cry at you for PVE, don't cry at me for PVP.
Exactly what I came to love from PVP players
I don't cry at you for PVP, I just don't do it. So for me the idea of making (=forcing) me do it if I want to do HEs in IWD is terrible. You say you don't ask your friends to let you kill them in IWD, so don't ask that other players do that.
If pvp was an aspect of the game like pve was, why is it that you have to go to different zones to do it and it even has its own campaign? In my opinion its more like a parallel universe to the main part of the game, but most times when classes get nerfed or mechanics get changed its because some pvp players cried long enough over some imbalance they perceived in their part of the game. You are doing the same, crying over how pvp players can not get enough kills for the pvp campaign. I wish for pvp to get better in this game, but please without impact on the pve part.
I don't cry at you for PVE, don't cry at me for PVP.
Exactly what I came to love from PVP players
I don't cry at you for PVP, I just don't do it. So for me the idea of making (=forcing) me do it if I want to do HEs in IWD is terrible. You say you don't ask your friends to let you kill them in IWD, so don't ask that other players do that.
If pvp was an aspect of the game like pve was, why is it that you have to go to different zones to do it and it even has its own campaign? In my opinion its more like a parallel universe to the main part of the game, but most times when classes get nerfed or mechanics get changed its because some pvp players cried long enough over some imbalance they perceived in their part of the game. You are doing the same, crying over how pvp players can not get enough kills for the pvp campaign. I wish for pvp to get better in this game, but please without impact on the pve part.
I never insisted that they take the HE's out of other areas, just that they move some to the PVP zones. You, like so many PVEers, have a knee jerk reaction to anyone from the PVP community trying to positively affect what they enjoy in the game. You read into things what you want. You jump to conclusions that belie your underlying prejudice.
I would like the PVP zones to have more competition. I won 2 black ice dominations by myself just yesterday because I was one of two people there. There is obviously something wrong when these events are unannounced. I suggested that it could be corrected if announced as more PVPers (that's right PVPers vs PVPers) would come to the zone to fight each other. I also suggested that contested mobs (as exist in many other MMOs) may be fun as there would likely be an equal number of PVEers and PVPers on either side and all could get PVP kills (you could actually swarm those dreaded PVPers you hate so much and corpse hump them to relieve some of your pent up frustration with the PVP community) and also gain PVE rewards while doing it.
If you are blaming my post for being the catalyst for every PVE change that came from the PVP community I am flattered but I think you give me too much credit.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
There is no salt here. I have even said that all gameplay styles are lacking and need improvement. So, yes, that includes PVP. Ive actually been trying to be all inclusive because this argument goes beyond PVP. And I feel the arguments are the same regardless of what form of gameplay you choose to focus on.
Put simply, you wont get people to enjoy a thing by forcing it on then. Moving content from one player style to another will only cause resentment.
Which is how we felt with Stronghold, I tried to state this and you went all preachy on me about PVE. It was salty when I was trying to explain that both sides feel this "push" and it's not enjoyable for either side. If you look at the overall discussion though, and combine it with my other forum posts you'll see the bigger picture that I'd like to see PVP overall become more balanced and less lop sided and I don't want to "force" anything on anyone but try to include appropriate incentives in combination with rewards and gear gap closers to make it fun again.
You keep trying to twist the issue. I have been trying to argue a need to support and increase the options within the larger meta, in this case PVE. It is a PVE centric game, it is the larger meta. All of the other game play styles, including PVP are options within this meta. You really need to stop trying to compare the options to the meta, it skews the argument and is a distraction. Strongholds, for example, was a nod to guilds and play styles that enjoy that content. And included both PVE and PVP. As I have tried to point out, there are far more play styles then just PVP and PVE. And while I'm not a guild player, I can agree guild content was lacking up to this point. Options within the larger meta. Currently there are very few, and they are unfulfilling. I don't actually have to state them all, I think we can agree regardless of play style preferred, options are lacking across the entire spectrum.
And I agree with you PVP needs fixing. It was all but stated when I said all game play options are woefully under supported. For the record, all, includes PVP. Normally I wouldn't need to point that out but you seem to be intentionally missing it.
So really the only point we seem to disagree on, is moving the demon HEs to PVP zones. You feel this is an enticement, I disagree. You feel this isn't forced, I also disagree. Moving content that people are already playing and relying on for progress will force them to adjust to the move. Nothing positive can come from it. Regardless of how you wish to twist it, that is the crux of the issue. Taking content away from one group to support another. Removing IWD Heroics and moving them to PVP areas is exactly that.
I think the people jumping negatively on this post are really not considering what the OP is saying. Everything listed would benefit the entire community in a positive way. As someone who has seen every aspect of the game; I started in one of the largest roleplaying guilds, am a 'completionist' when it comes to PVE, have created and spent many happy hours in the foundry and am now at home in a large pvp guild, I am fully in support of changes to be made as suggested in the original post.
On the recurring issues of the HE's in pvp zones;
Why can't Demon HE's spawn in the pvp zone and also out of it? Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't pvp'ers have HE's in their zone too?
As a pvp DC, it annoys the HAMSTER out of me that I am flagged and then can't 'heal' at a HE, because everyone else is unflagged. And by having HE's spawn in and out of the pvp zone, it gives people the option to fight in or not. YOU HAVE A CHOICE. You DON'T have to go in there. Just stick to the HE's outside of the pvp area. The PVP area is dead except for the occasional IWD Domi and then... it's always pot luck if you run into it. THIS is what the original post was saying.
Some PVE'rs will fight in it PVP zone HE's. And guess what, if they are lucky enough to have a DC/Pally from a pvp guild on their faction - they are going to be moderately protected. It's not all doom and gloom if you actually THINK about it.
Why are we so easy to take the negative stance on the original posts suggestion?
"Here's a circle... I'm not sure it's a real circle, so don't trust it too much!" Idril (AoGlyph)
There is no salt here. I have even said that all gameplay styles are lacking and need improvement. So, yes, that includes PVP. Ive actually been trying to be all inclusive because this argument goes beyond PVP. And I feel the arguments are the same regardless of what form of gameplay you choose to focus on.
Put simply, you wont get people to enjoy a thing by forcing it on then. Moving content from one player style to another will only cause resentment.
Which is how we felt with Stronghold, I tried to state this and you went all preachy on me about PVE. It was salty when I was trying to explain that both sides feel this "push" and it's not enjoyable for either side. If you look at the overall discussion though, and combine it with my other forum posts you'll see the bigger picture that I'd like to see PVP overall become more balanced and less lop sided and I don't want to "force" anything on anyone but try to include appropriate incentives in combination with rewards and gear gap closers to make it fun again.
You keep trying to twist the issue. I have been trying to argue a need to support and increase the options within the larger meta, in this case PVE. It is a PVE centric game, it is the larger meta. All of the other game play styles, including PVP are options within this meta. You really need to stop trying to compare the options to the meta, it skews the argument and is a distraction. Strongholds, for example, was a nod to guilds and play styles that enjoy that content. And included both PVE and PVP. As I have tried to point out, there are far more play styles then just PVP and PVE. And while I'm not a guild player, I can agree guild content was lacking up to this point. Options within the larger meta. Currently there are very few, and they are unfulfilling. I don't actually have to state them all, I think we can agree regardless of play style preferred, options are lacking across the entire spectrum.
And I agree with you PVP needs fixing. It was all but stated when I said all game play options are woefully under supported. For the record, all, includes PVP. Normally I wouldn't need to point that out but you seem to be intentionally missing it.
So really the only point we seem to disagree on, is moving the demon HEs to PVP zones. You feel this is an enticement, I disagree. You feel this isn't forced, I also disagree. Moving content that people are already playing and relying on for progress will force them to adjust to the move. Nothing positive can come from it. Regardless of how you wish to twist it, that is the crux of the issue. Taking content away from one group to support another. Removing IWD Heroics and moving them to PVP areas is exactly that.
"1) Place the demonic fights inside PVP zones so that they become "contested" mobs. I.E. your side has to fight to win the loot which then gives it an interesting flair different than just doing PVE, it becomes a mixture." Did I say remove them from the rest of the zone? Please, show me where I said remove them from other areas? I have tried telling you this multiple times but you still seem unable to comprehend.
Secondarily I am not twisting any issue. There is no larger meta, there are aspects, this game is an MMO centric game. Inside that "meta" is PVE, PVP, RP, and Foundry. These were originally equal parts of a greater whole. It is you who keeps trying to twist it so that PVE is the main focus and everything else is secondary.
I could take it a step further and say that when you reach end game, PVE flips roles and becomes completely non challenging so, in essence PVP is THE end game.
That said, I do agree that there are many areas in every aspect of the game that could be improved and I would like to see every element of the game improve, I just get tired of fighting against the divide. I am not factional, I do not prefer only PVPers opinions to PVEers but I find that it's difficult to discuss things when people instantly talk negatively about any opinion that end game PVPers may have about the game.
Thanks for your time.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Why can't Demon HE's spawn in the pvp zone and also out of it? Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't pvp'ers have HE's in their zone too?
I would have no issue with it, if it was worded that way from the start. If that was the OPs intention, then it was worded poorly.
I think he may have accidentally added one extra word, perhaps if it was stated; "1) Place demonic fights inside PVP zones..." instead of "1) Place the demonic fights inside PVP zones...." you would have had an easier time with the whole idea. Is that what you're saying?
Perhaps if you actually comprehended the content beforehand where he had explained that the pvp area is a dead zone, this would have made more sense? I don't know. I think people are far too quick to say 'NO!' in here.
"Here's a circle... I'm not sure it's a real circle, so don't trust it too much!" Idril (AoGlyph)
Secondarily I am not twisting any issue. There is no larger meta, there are aspects, this game is an MMO centric game. Inside that "meta" is PVE, PVP, RP, and Foundry. These were originally equal parts of a greater whole. It is you who keeps trying to twist it so that PVE is the main focus and everything else is secondary.
I could take it a step further and say that when you reach end game, PVE flips roles and becomes completely non challenging so, in essence PVP is THE end game.
It's fairly obvious what the meta here is. You can remove PVP and still be left with a functional game. We can argue and debate the details of whats left, or how populated or enjoyable it might be. But it would still be a functional game. Try to remove PVE and you are left with a small handful of maps and little else. PVP is not enough of the game to stand on its own and can be removed without greatly altering the main meta.
Now before the knee jerk reactions, I'm not advocating removing anything from the game. Nor will I argue if the game will remain marketable or profitable with PVP, or anything else, removed. I'm simply illustrating that the one part of the game that can not be removed is its PVE aspects, everything else is optional. Making PVE the meta. So while I would love to see more attention paid to many of the games neglected aspects. We have limped along now without several of them for a long time now.
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
Both @tolkienbuff and @sockmunkey have a point in that the only real end-game is pvp and that the meta is pve. In the last year or so there has been little incentive for pve players to progress due to a complete lack of challenge, which you will only find in pvp, where progress never seems to stop. Sadly, numerous bone-headed decisions from the powers-that-be totally ruined the pvp experience, leaving the elite guilds to roam unchecked.
I starting playing in Mod 2 and spent more time doing pvp than pve. I enjoyed pvp in Mods 2 and 3, which was the closest we had to balance bar a few minor problems here and there. Things went south from Mod 4 and has progressively got worse to the point where it is almost unplayable in its current state. Don't get me wrong, pve hasn't been all sunshine and roses during that time, with Mod 6 bringing a shitstorm that we are still trying to recover from.
Fact of the matter is, there is very little challenge for both pve and pvp players for various reasons and THAT needs to change.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
People don't like PVP for various reasons. A major reason is that we are not queued by Item Level. If we were, people might have a reasonable expectation that it would be fair. It would be more of a measure of skill vs. who has higher IL, better gear, and higher rank enchantments. Also, PVP matches could have actual scenarios with goals that players must accomplish while fighting each other. Killing each other for ten minutes over and over is unimaginative and boring. PVP should be about fair competition, a measure of skill, not who's been playing longer, is higher level, has better gear, or paid more. Why does no MMORPG seem to understand this?
I'm well aware of the reasons PVEers don't like PVP. I try to help address some of them by giving feedback about balancing in my posts. I don't mind people stating that they don't want to PVP or don't like PVP but I don't care for those who don't like PVPers... there's a huge difference.
Secondarily I am not twisting any issue. There is no larger meta, there are aspects, this game is an MMO centric game. Inside that "meta" is PVE, PVP, RP, and Foundry. These were originally equal parts of a greater whole. It is you who keeps trying to twist it so that PVE is the main focus and everything else is secondary.
I could take it a step further and say that when you reach end game, PVE flips roles and becomes completely non challenging so, in essence PVP is THE end game.
It's fairly obvious what the meta here is. You can remove PVP and still be left with a functional game. We can argue and debate the details of whats left, or how populated or enjoyable it might be. But it would still be a functional game. Try to remove PVE and you are left with a small handful of maps and little else. PVP is not enough of the game to stand on its own and can be removed without greatly altering the main meta.
Now before the knee jerk reactions, I'm not advocating removing anything from the game. Nor will I argue if the game will remain marketable or profitable with PVP, or anything else, removed. I'm simply illustrating that the one part of the game that can not be removed is its PVE aspects, everything else is optional. Making PVE the meta. So while I would love to see more attention paid to many of the games neglected aspects. We have limped along now without several of them for a long time now.
That's what you're going with? If you take out PVP there's still a game, thus PVE is the meta. Really. Well man, I can't argue with this kind of logic. They built an entire module around stronghold and created a MOBA based off it and PVE is the meta. Wow, you're not biased at all.
Thanks for your enlightening reply.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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torontodaveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 992Arc User
OP OP's OP is pretty good. I hope someone reads it.
[oathbound paladin original poster's original post ;D]
NW-DSQ39N5SJ - 'To Infinity, and BEYOND!' - Spelljammer Quest. Skyships, Indiana Jones moments NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
Comments
Now, if there were large Open world fights because of either 1) Contested mobs (like demons or even black ice beholder/rhemoraz) or 2) Because Black Ice domination was announced and people could flood the zone then everyone has a chance to get kills because there will invariably be people on both sides who are PVPers and everyone will benefit. Now, lesser geared players or no tenacity players are more likely to die, however they have at least a 50/50 chance for real benefit and they may make progress towards boons in the process. Now compare that with a certain death with 0% chance of profit when you enter the PVP zones now.
Thirdly, if there are enough f2p players they can overwhelm even the best geared PVPer. This is why open world offers the best likelyhood for fun. They may die, but they will also get kills because there will be PVEers and PVPers on each side which makes it better for them than a PM vs Pugs in domi.
Secondarily, you don't have to p2w to become BIS. But you do have to put in time into getting your economy in place and into building your toon taking every advantage of every resource at your disposal. So you can either pay to win or play to win or you can complain at everyone else who is doing better than you.
Im getting tired of loggin in too for this very reasons.. and well maybe im a bit tired of my hr performances too..
and ambush ring...and drains... and some guilds (rayrdan staph)
overall pleased.
fix the queue.
insignas need to be bound on account... i mean i bought those for my hrs, i still need them on my tr...still i can only pve with my hr.
nice campaign! good job campaign guy!
worst dailies in the history of gaming... are you dailies guy ok?
Now we can argue that the options presented here are in a woeful state and need drastic improvement. And I would completely agree with you. I simply draw the line at where those options, regardless of who they cater to, become forced.
It still comes down to the same question why would anyone want to play with someone who clearly doesn't want to or is ill equipped to do so?
PvP is riddled with problems that make it ridiculously unfun and punishing for non-super hardcore PvPers.
1) The gear gap is just to big. If you're not BiS, you're dead meat with no chance to compete.
2) The class balance sucks. Half the classes in this game are more or less second-class citizens in PvP with little to no chance to compete against the other classes. Combined with #1, it makes PvP even less fun.
3) The PvP community itself is extremely toxic. Even for those brave enough to wade into it, it won't be long before you're receiving tells from people about how much you suck, how you should quit the game, or all the interesting things they did to your mom last night. I only wish I was exaggerating here...
Top all that off with things like Domination, GG or SH Seige being dominated by guilds who have zero interest in actually making things competitive for anything below BiS, and you give your average player literally no reason to PvP, no matter how attractive you make the rewards.
For most of us this was fun, we enjoyed playing in all environments together. There were a few BIS guilds out there that roflstomped using tenebrous and perfect enchants and all rank 10s but the majority of pug matches were fun. This game was advertised as an Dungeons and Dragons based MMO. It didn't state that it was only for Roleplayers, PVEers, PVPers, or Foundry creators. It had all these elements and they all fit together pretty nicely.
It's actually what happened over the course of the next few mods that ruined that. The different types of players were separated into factions and forced into playtypes that they may not have enjoyed as much. PVEers hate spending time in PVP zones because they will get wrekt, PVPers hate that PVEers pug into domi on their teams with no tenacity just for the "daily" and cause their team to lose masssively. Foundry creators have been mostly ignored for mods now despite being very active in pointing out what needs to be done to the foundry. Roleplayer by in large left the game for others, not that they are all gone, there's still a smaller active community on the server.
Now, that said, I would like to see the game come back to a point where PVP isn't the bane of PVEers existence through some changes to try and, if not level the playing field at least shore it up a bit. I would like to see changes that give PVPers more fun and incentive to run PVE besides for their SH boons, and now insignias to be BIS.
I am not here to try to create a greater divide or slaughter non tenacity under geared pugs but to try and help them rejoin what was originally a community with niches but everyone could do what they like and not have to worry about having every little item in order to feel like they could even stand to Q for PVP content.
Don't try to force players to do something they would rather not do just so a few players can complete some boons? Just as with stronghold pvp you had to be one of those players that finished the tasks in the first 2 weeks, because after that no one wanted to play that content any more.
If you want to finish your boons, just ask some of your friends to let themselves kill 100 times in IWD pvp areas and get it over with. No need to to force others to be cannon fodder in the least liked part of this game.
Btw, you should have made the title "state of pvp" as that is your main points and over 80% of your opening post.
Every time I go PvP one side just gets steam rolled by the other, on most occasions. I'd rather not waste my time with it. Siege is the only map I find has more balance flow providing one team is not a full pvp guild. But the imbalances, just ruin it for people.
You have a PvEr who wants to try PvP, has no tenacy gets steam rolled, ganked and humilated, then is told they have to put up with this until they have gear to stop this from happening, and even then it may not be fun when they do.
Giving tenacy to people passively is a tiny step in the right direction. It will save people from having to change armor and reslot enchants everytime. But you will also have to re-introduce stat curves or scale down/up stats so people are more equal. The entry level vs BiS gap is soooo large, as soon as these new players get one shotted over and over all they will think about is "p2w" and just not PvP ever again.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
As for asking my friends to die 100 times, they are too busy completing SH tasks to build our guild SH or complete CN to get insignias, will you come to IWP and let me kill you? No? Likely for the same reasons I wouldn't ask them.
Thirdly, I addressed different areas of PVE and PVP, they are both aspects of the same game, if you don't like that take it up with the games' creators as it was their decision to have elements of all. I don't cry at you for PVE, don't cry at me for PVP.
Put simply, you wont get people to enjoy a thing by forcing it on then. Moving content from one player style to another will only cause resentment.
You talk about toxicity, it's not just from PVPers. PVEers can be just as vile and toxic... I've been trash talked in Epic Demo for missing aiming the Gorristro as badly or worse than I have in PVP when I kill an undergeared player.
You talk about toxicity when I come to the forums and get lambasted for trying to find solutions to imbalances and problems constructively.
This is one of the most biased statements I've read from a community moderator yet. Should I simply stop trying to come up with potential work arounds or fixes for what I see in the game that needs to be addressed?
Should I simply never post about PVP again? I'm disappointed that all I get from a moderator is that we should simply give up on PVP all together. Perhaps it's too late if even those who moderate are simply throwing their hands up and saying it's all screwed let's just forget about it.
Thanks for your reply.
But right now, all of this feedback and suggestions is like pissing into the wind.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Simply put, the reason I keep posting here is that some of this feedback does get listened to and all I can hope to do is share some insight on issues I see that need addressed and hope that they get picked up by the devs and given some consideration. If that is pissing in the wind, then I will continue to be covered in my own urine until they stop paying any attention to these forums at all.
I don't cry at you for PVP, I just don't do it. So for me the idea of making (=forcing) me do it if I want to do HEs in IWD is terrible. You say you don't ask your friends to let you kill them in IWD, so don't ask that other players do that.
If pvp was an aspect of the game like pve was, why is it that you have to go to different zones to do it and it even has its own campaign? In my opinion its more like a parallel universe to the main part of the game, but most times when classes get nerfed or mechanics get changed its because some pvp players cried long enough over some imbalance they perceived in their part of the game.
You are doing the same, crying over how pvp players can not get enough kills for the pvp campaign. I wish for pvp to get better in this game, but please without impact on the pve part.
I would like the PVP zones to have more competition. I won 2 black ice dominations by myself just yesterday because I was one of two people there. There is obviously something wrong when these events are unannounced. I suggested that it could be corrected if announced as more PVPers (that's right PVPers vs PVPers) would come to the zone to fight each other. I also suggested that contested mobs (as exist in many other MMOs) may be fun as there would likely be an equal number of PVEers and PVPers on either side and all could get PVP kills (you could actually swarm those dreaded PVPers you hate so much and corpse hump them to relieve some of your pent up frustration with the PVP community) and also gain PVE rewards while doing it.
If you are blaming my post for being the catalyst for every PVE change that came from the PVP community I am flattered but I think you give me too much credit.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
And I agree with you PVP needs fixing. It was all but stated when I said all game play options are woefully under supported. For the record, all, includes PVP. Normally I wouldn't need to point that out but you seem to be intentionally missing it.
So really the only point we seem to disagree on, is moving the demon HEs to PVP zones. You feel this is an enticement, I disagree. You feel this isn't forced, I also disagree. Moving content that people are already playing and relying on for progress will force them to adjust to the move. Nothing positive can come from it. Regardless of how you wish to twist it, that is the crux of the issue. Taking content away from one group to support another. Removing IWD Heroics and moving them to PVP areas is exactly that.
As someone who has seen every aspect of the game; I started in one of the largest roleplaying guilds, am a 'completionist' when it comes to PVE, have created and spent many happy hours in the foundry and am now at home in a large pvp guild, I am fully in support of changes to be made as suggested in the original post.
On the recurring issues of the HE's in pvp zones;
Why can't Demon HE's spawn in the pvp zone and also out of it? Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't pvp'ers have HE's in their zone too?
As a pvp DC, it annoys the HAMSTER out of me that I am flagged and then can't 'heal' at a HE, because everyone else is unflagged. And by having HE's spawn in and out of the pvp zone, it gives people the option to fight in or not. YOU HAVE A CHOICE. You DON'T have to go in there. Just stick to the HE's outside of the pvp area. The PVP area is dead except for the occasional IWD Domi and then... it's always pot luck if you run into it. THIS is what the original post was saying.
Some PVE'rs will fight in it PVP zone HE's. And guess what, if they are lucky enough to have a DC/Pally from a pvp guild on their faction - they are going to be moderately protected. It's not all doom and gloom if you actually THINK about it.
Why are we so easy to take the negative stance on the original posts suggestion?
Secondarily I am not twisting any issue. There is no larger meta, there are aspects, this game is an MMO centric game. Inside that "meta" is PVE, PVP, RP, and Foundry. These were originally equal parts of a greater whole. It is you who keeps trying to twist it so that PVE is the main focus and everything else is secondary.
I could take it a step further and say that when you reach end game, PVE flips roles and becomes completely non challenging so, in essence PVP is THE end game.
That said, I do agree that there are many areas in every aspect of the game that could be improved and I would like to see every element of the game improve, I just get tired of fighting against the divide. I am not factional, I do not prefer only PVPers opinions to PVEers but I find that it's difficult to discuss things when people instantly talk negatively about any opinion that end game PVPers may have about the game.
Thanks for your time.
instead of "1) Place the demonic fights inside PVP zones...." you would have had an easier time with the whole idea. Is that what you're saying?
Perhaps if you actually comprehended the content beforehand where he had explained that the pvp area is a dead zone, this would have made more sense? I don't know. I think people are far too quick to say 'NO!' in here.
Now before the knee jerk reactions, I'm not advocating removing anything from the game. Nor will I argue if the game will remain marketable or profitable with PVP, or anything else, removed. I'm simply illustrating that the one part of the game that can not be removed is its PVE aspects, everything else is optional. Making PVE the meta. So while I would love to see more attention paid to many of the games neglected aspects. We have limped along now without several of them for a long time now.
I starting playing in Mod 2 and spent more time doing pvp than pve. I enjoyed pvp in Mods 2 and 3, which was the closest we had to balance bar a few minor problems here and there. Things went south from Mod 4 and has progressively got worse to the point where it is almost unplayable in its current state. Don't get me wrong, pve hasn't been all sunshine and roses during that time, with Mod 6 bringing a shitstorm that we are still trying to recover from.
Fact of the matter is, there is very little challenge for both pve and pvp players for various reasons and THAT needs to change.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Thanks for your reply. That's what you're going with? If you take out PVP there's still a game, thus PVE is the meta. Really. Well man, I can't argue with this kind of logic. They built an entire module around stronghold and created a MOBA based off it and PVE is the meta. Wow, you're not biased at all.
Thanks for your enlightening reply.
@goatshark @graalx3 @badbotlimit @strumslinger @terramak
[oathbound paladin original poster's original post ;D]
NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.