Guys, I'm a lvl 55 Faithful DC and currently focusing on PvP. I'm wondering if from this level and onwards (until level 70 and after) there is any role for healing or are most classes robust enough to not need healing?
At the moment I use AS, BoH and Forgemaster's Flame (I'm DO). I manage to provide support to CW, DC, HR, SW and TR but the tanks (unless the opposing team is much more powerful than mine) don't need healing. I'm wondering whether CW, DC, SW, HR and TR will continue needing healing as they level up. FF still allows me to contribute some DPS towards enemies (apart from the strong tanks)
If not then maybe better to respec as Righteous? Also if I'm righteous maybe I can combine large DPS with high crits in healing combining the best of both worlds? I really like the idea of combining healing and DPS, even if I'm not taking an "all-out" DPW encounter rotation as some people have suggested here in favour of using the flexibility the class provides... What do you guys think?
The investment for being solid righteous dc is very high and it is irreversible after to start your investment. Considering you are pvping, stay faithful and build yourself as tank will do.
Why is it irreversible? I can just respec can't I?
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
Nothing is irreversible, its just expensive. The gear, stat distribution, and companions for a righteous are much different that the healer based classes.
Healers focus a lot more on recovery & AP gain. Healers also focus a lot more on damage resistance and health points (doesn't need lifesteal).
In contrast righteous focuses more on crit for offense and righteous will stack 10%+ lifesteal generally.
The real cost is in the artifacts and artifact equipment differences. These things are massively expensive and bound of course so unlike enchants you can't just sell them and buy what you want with the risk only being the 10% AH fee. When you use artifact equipment as RP in new artifact equipment you only get 80% of the RP invested back. So you loose 20% of the value right off the top. This doesn't include your cost in marks, wards, and any jewels you put in the item. There's also the expense of configuring artifact equipment with the cubes which is also lost when you use them as RP.
I already regret my choice to build a righteous monster, the AD spent into my items and artifact choices is massively huge and that will cost you around a few months of grinding AD only to change your original healer build to righteous dps/debuff build. If you change back to healer, all the investment in your previous months are wasted. Think seriously before you pick this choice.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
I do think that a simple respec and some relatively cheap changes can make you a very competent healer. But in the max/min world of PVP it could be difficult. For instance my 100% crit chance and 160 crit severity could make for very potent but infrequent heals versus a recovery build. Maybe someday i can test it :-)
I'm with @jazzfong . A simple respec and few changes are not enough IMO when you're 3k+ but I think that we start from different assumptions. My virtuous PVE build and set up is irreversible, meaning that I've to start from scratch if I want to be an efficient righteuos. I've tested twice my current equipment, stats, etc as righteous and it doesn' t work: I don't see any relevant benefit coming from a power/recovery and ap gain based setup. I should: - reroll (not only respec) -> From Wis - Cha to Wis - Str - change some of my rk 10+ enchantments - get rid of 3 (purple) companions I have - change 3 mithyc artfacts - change my gear set (power / recovery based) - change the armor kits - change my trascendent plaguefire - change my legendary tiamat set - change one or more personalized or +4 ring - change the companion's equipment If you sum up the costs of those items, it's so high that it's not affordable. But if you're a 2.3k DC the cost, maybe, is not so high. In my case some compromises can be found without changing everything, but I don't like this idea.
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Thanks for the comments guys. One thing I don't completely understand is the investment you speak of. So my gear is all won through PVEing and PVPing (for the tenacity). Plaguefire, Tiamat, Lathander, armour kits etc...I know nothing of. The only things I've bought with AD are several epic enchantments (for Recovery/Deflection) from the Auction House in Protector's Enclave. Do you get all the gear etc the mention above from the campaigns? (I'm only on the second Tyranny of Dragon's campaign in Ebon Downs). I also have only recently started doing epic dungeons - maybe the artifact equipment you are referring to are from there? My level is 58 right now.
> @putzboy78 said: > I do think that a simple respec and some relatively cheap changes can make you a very competent healer. But in the max/min world of PVP it could be difficult. For instance my 100% crit chance and 160 crit severity could make for very potent but infrequent heals versus a recovery build. Maybe someday i can test it :-)
When you say the min/max world of PvP when you talk specifically about a healer? If faithful then my DPs is never going to be solid for instance? And conversely, if righteous, my heals will never be good enough (for instance through the loss of my Test of Faith and Gift of Faith)?
Thanks for the comments guys. One thing I don't completely understand is the investment you speak of.
It's not easy to explain in few words. The build (feats & powers) is just like the foundation of a house. On top of it, it's a slow and expensive construction process where you've to be aware where you want to go. Usually this process requires some respecs in the middle for many reasons. The DC is a very flexible class and many approaches can be followed. I think that this discussion: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1212947/cleric-meta is quite useful to have a first understanding of the complexity/grind you've in front of you. Concerning the items we're talking about, I suggest to ctrl+j in game and check: - the artifact equipements features - the gear sets - the artifacts
Thanks for the comments guys. One thing I don't completely understand is the investment you speak of. So my gear is all won through PVEing and PVPing (for the tenacity). Plaguefire, Tiamat, Lathander, armour kits etc...I know nothing of. The only things I've bought with AD are several epic enchantments (for Recovery/Deflection) from the Auction House in Protector's Enclave. Do you get all the gear etc the mention above from the campaigns? (I'm only on the second Tyranny of Dragon's campaign in Ebon Downs). I also have only recently started doing epic dungeons - maybe the artifact equipment you are referring to are from there? My level is 58 right now.
> I do think that a simple respec and some relatively cheap changes can make you a very competent healer. But in the max/min world of PVP it could be difficult. For instance my 100% crit chance and 160 crit severity could make for very potent but infrequent heals versus a recovery build. Maybe someday i can test it :-)
When you say the min/max world of PvP when you talk specifically about a healer? If faithful then my DPs is never going to be solid for instance? And conversely, if righteous, my heals will never be good enough (for instance through the loss of my Test of Faith and Gift of Faith)?
> @rapo973 said: > Thanks for the comments guys. One thing I don't completely understand is the investment you speak of. > > > > It's not easy to explain in few words. > The build (feats & powers) is just like the foundation of a house. On top of it, it's a slow and expensive construction process where you've to be aware where you want to go. Usually this process requires some respecs in the middle for many reasons. > The DC is a very flexible class and many approaches can be followed. I think that this discussion:
> is quite useful to have a first understanding of the complexity/grind you've in front of you. > Concerning the items we're talking about, I suggest to ctrl+j in game and check: > - the artifact equipements features > - the gear sets > - the artifacts > > The selection of each item and how they work together are a part of what you need to put on top of your foundation. > Read this as well:
> > It's the index of the things you've to think about.
OK this was very informative - when is it the case that someone can get several "million" ADs? At the moment I have just under 80k and that took 60 levels to get!
Also now at level 60 I'm seeing I need waaaaay more experience than before to level up. I still haven t completed the Chasm on the main Quest path - I guess lots of PvP helped me level up to where I am. and yet the main Quest path gives 3000-4000 experience points per quest which is very small. I've seen my Guild gives some 40k quests as do some new quests opened in protector's enclave for 16k. Should I switch completely to the high-exp quests or should I continue both on the main quest path and do a mixture of new quests and campaigns?
> @arcofortep12 said: > > > As Putz said, some things are available after level 70 like the Lostmauth/Tiamat sets, some armors and weapons, though weapon, armor and standard enchantments you can buy them right now. Ensorcelled weapons are generally a good investment, they are dirty cheap and solid. I still wear them on my toons (but I have 8 to mantain).
Ensorcelled items - you mean those that can be bought at the Trad of Blades at PE? I have about 12k glory and was wondering if it was worth spending it just yet on belts and rings (wepaons are locked for level 65)
1. Ensorcelled mulhorand items can be bought from AH. 2. Millions of AD isnt a big number. You can refine 36k ad per day and every month gives 1 mil+ ad. Many of us played for more than 2 years and guess the total ad we had. 3. Leveling from 60 to 70 is painful, choose whatever u like and do it. By some time playing here and there u should get to 70.
I'm mixing pvp and pve... why do you say level 70 pvp is trash? Because of the whole unbalanced thing?
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
Lvl 70 pvp is challenging because:
1) their is a huge disparity between 1.7 ilvl and 4k ilvl competitors, and the queue matchmaking does not handle this 2) yes class imbalance is always a challenge, but that's in any game. For example an end game faithful DC or a perma-bubble paly OP are virtually un-killable while a KDR focused TR can reak havoc on almost anyone with one shotting them while stealthed 3) LvL 70 features rings (as of Mod 8) where CWs can attack and remain stealthed, Hitting an OP will leave you stunned, GFs who have substantial single target burst damage can sneak up on you in stealth and kill you in one rotation 4) Elite guilds use special enchants called (overloads) that drain your stamina (can't dodge) and AP (no dailys). Only being in a high level guild gives you access to these things 5) PVP guilds getting queued against pugs. So note 1-4 above. Now add a team balanced for PVP and coordinated via voice chat. When you lucky if your team all goes to 2 together and says hi before you start.
You probably already get a feel for some of these things as high ilvl people bring their enchants and mountains of AD down to lower lvl pvp to get their jolly's off on new/ungeared players. In LVL 70 pvp this is every match and multiple people per match. For low ilvl people its a massacre
1) their is a huge disparity between 1.7 ilvl and 4k ilvl competitors, and the queue matchmaking does not handle this 2) yes class imbalance is always a challenge, but that's in any game. For example an end game faithful DC or a perma-bubble paly OP are virtually un-killable while a KDR focused TR can reak havoc on almost anyone with one shotting them while stealthed 3) LvL 70 features rings (as of Mod 8) where CWs can attack and remain stealthed, Hitting an OP will leave you stunned, GFs who have substantial single target burst damage can sneak up on you in stealth and kill you in one rotation 4) Elite guilds use special enchants called (overloads) that drain your stamina (can't dodge) and AP (no dailys). Only being in a high level guild gives you access to these things 5) PVP guilds getting queued against pugs. So note 1-4 above. Now add a team balanced for PVP and coordinated via voice chat. When you lucky if your team all goes to 2 together and says hi before you start.
You probably already get a feel for some of these things as high ilvl people bring their enchants and mountains of AD down to lower lvl pvp to get their jolly's off on new/ungeared players. In LVL 70 pvp this is every match and multiple people per match. For low ilvl people its a massacre
pug pvp starts to be nearly impossible its enough for one charactert be as you described and the other team have no chance
4K+, pvp equip, enchans and tenacity. new rings. new guild boons...
i puged with average of 3K teams and we couldn't scratch a single CW/SW/GWF with the above items and buffs now some kill me in two hits even if i have fully empowerd astral shield (100K HP + 35% PVP DR + 30% DR)
the diffrence between high level pvp player to an average player changed in last few weeks and its impossible now if the guild shards were not needed i wholdn't do pvp at all
1) their is a huge disparity between 1.7 ilvl and 4k ilvl competitors, and the queue matchmaking does not handle this 2) yes class imbalance is always a challenge, but that's in any game. For example an end game faithful DC or a perma-bubble paly OP are virtually un-killable while a KDR focused TR can reak havoc on almost anyone with one shotting them while stealthed 3) LvL 70 features rings (as of Mod 8) where CWs can attack and remain stealthed, Hitting an OP will leave you stunned, GFs who have substantial single target burst damage can sneak up on you in stealth and kill you in one rotation 4) Elite guilds use special enchants called (overloads) that drain your stamina (can't dodge) and AP (no dailys). Only being in a high level guild gives you access to these things 5) PVP guilds getting queued against pugs. So note 1-4 above. Now add a team balanced for PVP and coordinated via voice chat. When you lucky if your team all goes to 2 together and says hi before you start.
You probably already get a feel for some of these things as high ilvl people bring their enchants and mountains of AD down to lower lvl pvp to get their jolly's off on new/ungeared players. In LVL 70 pvp this is every match and multiple people per match. For low ilvl people its a massacre
You are right - I have seen this in the PvP lately. Sometimes I am on a team that wreaks havoc on the other team (I guess I just landed there by luck), and yet others I am on the team that gets annihilated by the enemy who basically kills me in a couple of shots.
Putzboy I had no idea about these elite guilds. It sounds crazy though to allow this sort of imbalance to be produced by guild-specific items! Well, what I find the weirdest thing is abusive language within PvP that I've witnessed both to other teammates and recently to myself from the opposing team. Why would this behaviour occur? 12 year old boys maybe who just have no clue about what respect means? Not that is upsets me, but I really don't understand it. I ve read in different places that people have given up n PvP for precisely this nasty attitude.
So I guess take the imbalances created by the PvP matching system, all the rest you guys described above and add into the mix the nasty attitudes and maybe what you get can be described indeed as "trash"
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
You are right - I have seen this in the PvP lately. Sometimes I am on a team that wreaks havoc on the other team (I guess I just landed there by luck), and yet others I am on the team that gets annihilated by the enemy who basically kills me in a couple of shots.
Putzboy I had no idea about these elite guilds. It sounds crazy though to allow this sort of imbalance to be produced by guild-specific items! Well, what I find the weirdest thing is abusive language within PvP that I've witnessed both to other teammates and recently to myself from the opposing team. Why would this behaviour occur? 12 year old boys maybe who just have no clue about what respect means? Not that is upsets me, but I really don't understand it. I ve read in different places that people have given up n PvP for precisely this nasty attitude.
So I guess take the imbalances created by the PvP matching system, all the rest you guys described above and add into the mix the nasty attitudes and maybe what you get can be described indeed as "trash"
I go for the conq shards to feed the guild mimic. That is the limit of my daily pvp and I am very happy when it only takes one round to accomplish this. I rarely escape a round of PVP without adding someone to my ignore list. While pvp does not adhere to the ignore list for the purposes of queue, I do not want to give these people my gift of presence in PVE and I do not want to talk to them again in any case. I also hold out hope that cryptic will fix this issue with the queue but I'm not holding my breath.
Hello guys, i recently leveled up a righteous dc, i was wondering if i should get the lostmauth set asap and start directly with that in your opinion (talking about pve dps mainly) I already have it in my main which is a gwf and it scales insanely, are the benefits worth the investment on a dc? i'm not that rich right now Thanks
It is good, but if you need to save AD, grind for the new artifact set in mod 9. Stats are non-optimal, but it is cheaper than lol set.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
edited March 2016
artifact sets are expensive as is leveling them. Even if you hold on for a 2xRP weekend the RP deprecation can be expensive. If your planning to max/min your righteous DC then yes I'd get the eLoL set. For example if you take a legendary artifact equipment use it as RP in a new piece and get to lvl 56, the cost to get that piece to legendary is another 1.16M. Assuming you have neck/waist your talking to 2.3M. [link removed]
Obviously the depriciation cost is lower if you do the transition before you make it to legendary, but I typically recommend for artifacts and artifacts you save up and get the want you want most and not to waste AD on intermediate options. The choice is up to you however.
How much dps potential righteous DC has? I haven't seen any DC focusing only in dps...
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
on par with second tier dpsrs. righteous dc cannot help but debuff mobs meaning you will always raise the dps of those around you. So if you go strictly by the paingiver charts a similarly geared dps should always be matching or beating your dps. Also righteous DC uses a lot of DOT's, so a high dps party will mean low personal damage . If your looking to top dps charts you need a low dps party that lets your DOTs run uninterrupted.
You won't find many true dpsrs in the dc class because most of the people that play/enjoy dc do it because they enjoy being a support class. It's like finding a Conq PVP GF, they exist but rarely hang around because they never aspire to the DPS they really want/need and are less popular for grouping because they don't maximize their role.
Thanks for info. My main is 3.6k sw so i really ain't looking for another dps character to play. I started to gear up my righteous DC just for fun and noticed that i could do quite nice dps in solo play, so that lead to my initial question.
Comments
At the moment I use AS, BoH and Forgemaster's Flame (I'm DO). I manage to provide support to CW, DC, HR, SW and TR but the tanks (unless the opposing team is much more powerful than mine) don't need healing. I'm wondering whether CW, DC, SW, HR and TR will continue needing healing as they level up. FF still allows me to contribute some DPS towards enemies (apart from the strong tanks)
If not then maybe better to respec as Righteous? Also if I'm righteous maybe I can combine large DPS with high crits in healing combining the best of both worlds? I really like the idea of combining healing and DPS, even if I'm not taking an "all-out" DPW encounter rotation as some people have suggested here in favour of using the flexibility the class provides... What do you guys think?
Healers focus a lot more on recovery & AP gain. Healers also focus a lot more on damage resistance and health points (doesn't need lifesteal).
In contrast righteous focuses more on crit for offense and righteous will stack 10%+ lifesteal generally.
The real cost is in the artifacts and artifact equipment differences. These things are massively expensive and bound of course so unlike enchants you can't just sell them and buy what you want with the risk only being the 10% AH fee. When you use artifact equipment as RP in new artifact equipment you only get 80% of the RP invested back. So you loose 20% of the value right off the top. This doesn't include your cost in marks, wards, and any jewels you put in the item. There's also the expense of configuring artifact equipment with the cubes which is also lost when you use them as RP.
A simple respec and few changes are not enough IMO when you're 3k+ but I think that we start from different assumptions. My virtuous PVE build and set up is irreversible, meaning that I've to start from scratch if I want to be an efficient righteuos.
I've tested twice my current equipment, stats, etc as righteous and it doesn' t work: I don't see any relevant benefit coming from a power/recovery and ap gain based setup.
I should:
- reroll (not only respec) -> From Wis - Cha to Wis - Str
- change some of my rk 10+ enchantments
- get rid of 3 (purple) companions I have
- change 3 mithyc artfacts
- change my gear set (power / recovery based)
- change the armor kits
- change my trascendent plaguefire
- change my legendary tiamat set
- change one or more personalized or +4 ring
- change the companion's equipment
If you sum up the costs of those items, it's so high that it's not affordable. But if you're a 2.3k DC the cost, maybe, is not so high.
In my case some compromises can be found without changing everything, but I don't like this idea.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
> @putzboy78 said:
> I do think that a simple respec and some relatively cheap changes can make you a very competent healer. But in the max/min world of PVP it could be difficult. For instance my 100% crit chance and 160 crit severity could make for very potent but infrequent heals versus a recovery build. Maybe someday i can test it :-)
When you say the min/max world of PvP when you talk specifically about a healer? If faithful then my DPs is never going to be solid for instance? And conversely, if righteous, my heals will never be good enough (for instance through the loss of my Test of Faith and Gift of Faith)?
The build (feats & powers) is just like the foundation of a house. On top of it, it's a slow and expensive construction process where you've to be aware where you want to go. Usually this process requires some respecs in the middle for many reasons.
The DC is a very flexible class and many approaches can be followed. I think that this discussion:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1212947/cleric-meta
is quite useful to have a first understanding of the complexity/grind you've in front of you.
Concerning the items we're talking about, I suggest to ctrl+j in game and check:
- the artifact equipements features
- the gear sets
- the artifacts
The selection of each item and how they work together are a part of what you need to put on top of your foundation.
Read this as well:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1213089/elfs-mod-9-guide-placeholder-under-construction
It's the index of the things you've to think about.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
> Thanks for the comments guys. One thing I don't completely understand is the investment you speak of.
>
>
>
> It's not easy to explain in few words.
> The build (feats & powers) is just like the foundation of a house. On top of it, it's a slow and expensive construction process where you've to be aware where you want to go. Usually this process requires some respecs in the middle for many reasons.
> The DC is a very flexible class and many approaches can be followed. I think that this discussion:
> is quite useful to have a first understanding of the complexity/grind you've in front of you.
> Concerning the items we're talking about, I suggest to ctrl+j in game and check:
> - the artifact equipements features
> - the gear sets
> - the artifacts
>
> The selection of each item and how they work together are a part of what you need to put on top of your foundation.
> Read this as well:
>
> It's the index of the things you've to think about.
OK this was very informative - when is it the case that someone can get several "million" ADs? At the moment I have just under 80k and that took 60 levels to get!
Also now at level 60 I'm seeing I need waaaaay more experience than before to level up. I still haven t completed the Chasm on the main Quest path - I guess lots of PvP helped me level up to where I am. and yet the main Quest path gives 3000-4000 experience points per quest which is very small. I've seen my Guild gives some 40k quests as do some new quests opened in protector's enclave for 16k. Should I switch completely to the high-exp quests or should I continue both on the main quest path and do a mixture of new quests and campaigns?
> @arcofortep12 said:
>
>
> As Putz said, some things are available after level 70 like the Lostmauth/Tiamat sets, some armors and weapons, though weapon, armor and standard enchantments you can buy them right now. Ensorcelled weapons are generally a good investment, they are dirty cheap and solid. I still wear them on my toons (but I have 8 to mantain).
Ensorcelled items - you mean those that can be bought at the Trad of Blades at PE? I have about 12k glory and was wondering if it was worth spending it just yet on belts and rings (wepaons are locked for level 65)
2. Millions of AD isnt a big number. You can refine 36k ad per day and every month gives 1 mil+ ad. Many of us played for more than 2 years and guess the total ad we had.
3. Leveling from 60 to 70 is painful, choose whatever u like and do it. By some time playing here and there u should get to 70.
1) their is a huge disparity between 1.7 ilvl and 4k ilvl competitors, and the queue matchmaking does not handle this
2) yes class imbalance is always a challenge, but that's in any game. For example an end game faithful DC or a perma-bubble paly OP are virtually un-killable while a KDR focused TR can reak havoc on almost anyone with one shotting them while stealthed
3) LvL 70 features rings (as of Mod 8) where CWs can attack and remain stealthed, Hitting an OP will leave you stunned, GFs who have substantial single target burst damage can sneak up on you in stealth and kill you in one rotation
4) Elite guilds use special enchants called (overloads) that drain your stamina (can't dodge) and AP (no dailys). Only being in a high level guild gives you access to these things
5) PVP guilds getting queued against pugs. So note 1-4 above. Now add a team balanced for PVP and coordinated via voice chat. When you lucky if your team all goes to 2 together and says hi before you start.
You probably already get a feel for some of these things as high ilvl people bring their enchants and mountains of AD down to lower lvl pvp to get their jolly's off on new/ungeared players. In LVL 70 pvp this is every match and multiple people per match. For low ilvl people its a massacre
pug pvp starts to be nearly impossible
its enough for one charactert be as you described and the other team have no chance
4K+, pvp equip, enchans and tenacity. new rings. new guild boons...
i puged with average of 3K teams and we couldn't scratch a single CW/SW/GWF with the above items and buffs
now some kill me in two hits even if i have fully empowerd astral shield (100K HP + 35% PVP DR + 30% DR)
the diffrence between high level pvp player to an average player changed in last few weeks and its impossible now
if the guild shards were not needed i wholdn't do pvp at all
You are right - I have seen this in the PvP lately. Sometimes I am on a team that wreaks havoc on the other team (I guess I just landed there by luck), and yet others I am on the team that gets annihilated by the enemy who basically kills me in a couple of shots.
Putzboy I had no idea about these elite guilds. It sounds crazy though to allow this sort of imbalance to be produced by guild-specific items! Well, what I find the weirdest thing is abusive language within PvP that I've witnessed both to other teammates and recently to myself from the opposing team. Why would this behaviour occur? 12 year old boys maybe who just have no clue about what respect means?
So I guess take the imbalances created by the PvP matching system, all the rest you guys described above and add into the mix the nasty attitudes and maybe what you get can be described indeed as "trash"
I already have it in my main which is a gwf and it scales insanely, are the benefits worth the investment on a dc? i'm not that rich right now
Thanks
Obviously the depriciation cost is lower if you do the transition before you make it to legendary, but I typically recommend for artifacts and artifacts you save up and get the want you want most and not to waste AD on intermediate options. The choice is up to you however.
You won't find many true dpsrs in the dc class because most of the people that play/enjoy dc do it because they enjoy being a support class. It's like finding a Conq PVP GF, they exist but rarely hang around because they never aspire to the DPS they really want/need and are less popular for grouping because they don't maximize their role.