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Okay, yesterday in IWD I watched a CW...
gomok72
Member Posts: 616 Arc User
..struggle to actually control "NON" controller specific classes. Now, I am not a CW main (My SW is my main and always will be.), but it puzzled me watching a Control Wizard that had invested in all types of control stats to not be able to out control a HR and a TR that he had fought several times.
From what I gathered, this specific control wizrd who is pretty decent in PvP hit a TR with his repel and not knock the guy back (Immune went up over his head several times), or seeing the TR get CCed only to come out of it within nano seconds.
I'm just wondering, since most Control wizards, I have seen in PvP run repel and other single targe attacks, with very high burst. My question is this, what exactly are their roles in PvP in this game?
I mean, Rangers, and TR, control a whole lot better than them ( I had to make my spec include Oghma's, to beat HR in PvP). I am very, very, confused by this and thought I would ask this question, in order to hopefully get an answer, since I really don't know any specific builds for this class or how exactly they are to play out in PvP as a supposed "Control" class.
I thought I would put this link up that actually describe what Control Wizards are supposed to be/do on the battlefield, "their function".
neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Control_Wizard
From what I gathered, this specific control wizrd who is pretty decent in PvP hit a TR with his repel and not knock the guy back (Immune went up over his head several times), or seeing the TR get CCed only to come out of it within nano seconds.
I'm just wondering, since most Control wizards, I have seen in PvP run repel and other single targe attacks, with very high burst. My question is this, what exactly are their roles in PvP in this game?
I mean, Rangers, and TR, control a whole lot better than them ( I had to make my spec include Oghma's, to beat HR in PvP). I am very, very, confused by this and thought I would ask this question, in order to hopefully get an answer, since I really don't know any specific builds for this class or how exactly they are to play out in PvP as a supposed "Control" class.
I thought I would put this link up that actually describe what Control Wizards are supposed to be/do on the battlefield, "their function".
neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Control_Wizard
I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.
-Kymos
-Kymos
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Also, the devs noticed in the past that CWs were more concerned about their DPS, and played more like ranged DPS than controllers.
If you can control a lot, you must deal low damage. It means, you play as support.
And 99% of PvP players don't want to be support. They want pew pew kill the enemy.
Tell to a CW that he will gain real CC but lose a huge part of his DPS, becoming a support for those who actually kill the enemy.
Most CWs will say "no thanks".
In short, don't expect any sort of parity or functional or even enjoyable PvP in an open world situation (IWD and SH), as the sheer amount of stuff available to break every aspect of PvP is enormous.
And strikers currently out-control controllers is another issue needs to be looked into. Strikers are supposed to deal high amounts of damage to a single target at a time, not to control. Yet they at here are spamming overwhelming control, even AOE control.
The Elven Battle Enchantment is also thought-provoking. There is such an enchantment to nullify control, but there aren't similar enchantments to nullify healing, strike, or defending. That doesn't seem to be fair to me. Maybe we can make it a fair match by either removing Elven Battle from the game or introducing similar enchantments to nullify healing, strike, or defending.
TR: Courage breaker -> Smokebomb -> wait 5 sec while throwing daggers -> shocking = CC combo.
CW: Choke -> Repel -> Ice knife/oppressive (could be the other way around) -> Disintegrate -> freeze at will = CC combo
HR: Disruptive shot (CC + immunity breaker) biggest threat, can't recall the names of the skills but everything is CC
GF: Actually has the least CC in the meta currently. only bullcharge is used in all the builds, the dailies vary between CC immunity or stunlock, but still = CC combo
GWF: CC Daily, that's all they got, but since they are the fastest striking class that's all they need to finish their entire combo.
SW: Dazing Daily -> Long choke -> bleed -> prone/killing flames = CC combo
Pally = Cancer.
So if you look at the meta, all the classes have CC combos which go through elven when executed correctly, the only difference is class mechanics like ITC, unstoppable etc' but they have been around for ages, they still don't do anything against burst damage, they are mainly there to keep classes like HR and CW not to be out of control.
There are two main problems for Control Wizards.
1. Elven Battle. It completely nullifies our control and it also have an huge impact on our damage because it removes the chill stacks from the target. Chill stacks are our main damage booster. One enchant should not have this big of an impact on one class.
2. Shield. We are forced to use our shield on TAB because without it, we die within seconds. Because of this, we lose our main encounter slot that is buffing all our encounters in different ways.
The damage resistance we get from shield on TAB should be given the CW by default without having to slot the shield. And then (ofc) remove the resistance from the shield so that shield only gives the extra control resistance. Maybe some small damage resistance so that it isn't totally useless, like 1 % instead of 5% for each rank.
Entangle
Spell Mastery: Holds foe slightly longer, and when first cast, enemies near the target will be pulled towards them, and you gain a stack of Arcane Mastery for each target pulled.
Repel
Spell Mastery: Now affects multiple target
Icy rays
Spell Mastery: Deals 50% more damage, Immobilizes for an additional half second, and adds an extra stack of Chill.
But Im not sure fixing these two issues are enough to boost our control. Almost all classes has really good anti-control powers with really good heals and strong damage. I still feel that a CW needs something more. I think maybe nerfing some other classes control and add some extra time on CW stuns/holds could make it better. Basically move some of the control from the other classes to CW. This way we get a more unique role in PvP.
For example, Icy terrain should slow like Courage breaker does. Makes sense that you run slower on Ice?
Another idea is that Chill stacks slows target more than it does today.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
With the exception of TEB, and CC duration reduction due to deflection, an Oppressor build CW controls any opponent that does not have built-in CC breakers (like GWF or TR), or has prepared such artifacts (like Oghma's) to near permastatus.
Of course, people don't know jack*hit about stuff like this since they never try anything different. Even the veteran CW players themselves, unfortunately.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
1) Control in PVE is irrelevant, nothing needs controlling and so as a result everyone specs for damage. Even if it wasn't irrelevant, CW's are bad at it in pve (I specced oppressor for a while and ran control companions+the vt set to test it, CW really sucks at control)
2) Content in this game is really easy on the PVE side and this leads to players playing like individuals and not as a group, this also leads to them competing on boards like paingiver etc, even though said boards are meaningless.
3) This behavior then translates across to PVP, once people get into that individual mindset, its very difficult to convince them of anything else.
I personally in pve run a MoF renegade spec for party support (so don't claim that all CW's have the MOAR personal dps mentality). Even if there were things in pve that needed to be controlled though, I still wouldn't run oppressor because it SUCKS at controlling stuff, I would let a HR do it instead.
Nowadays glasscannon GWFs are in outrage that they have actual aggro, mobs are turning to them and thinking that the mark is only some kind of dmg buff!
As for the matter of hand: CWs can do dps in pvp or can do cc there but interestingly HR/GF's cc or TR smoke bombs are working better there.
CWs are good for aoe cc but for single target cc there are rivals.
Lol. GWFs are one to talk!
But it's true that most CWs in PvE care about DPS more than CC. Making CC useful again and making CWs the best at doing it is another issue. But i don't see many topics about this issue. The complaint i've read so far from MOST CWs is how their DPS is too low compared to primary DPS classes... One little difference: GWF is presented as PRIMARY DPS and secondary tank. CWs are PRIMARY CONTROLLERS and secondary DPS.
This said, there are GWFs who would go off-tank. I, for one, am a PvP type, iron vanguard, and i didn't max DPS but balanced DPS with tankiness (my higher stat is CON and i have 24% LS chance). When there's no tank around i usually run ahead, daring shout and start using Wicked strike AoE on the mobs (decreases the damage they deal).
But that's our SECONDARY ROLE. So it's normal for GWFs to care more about DPS, since it's a primary DPS class.
CWs, on the other side, are primary controllers. I'd expect to see a flood of complaints about how CC is not really needed in dungeons, and threads like this one asking about CC in PvP.
Instead, most complaints are: DPS DPS DPS. Why that class deals so much more DPS than me.
It's as if GWFs were posting complaint threads about GFs being able to tank much better.
Now, what i say is that in the past CWs were very focused on DPS, and may be the devs just went in the direction that they thought was more important for the CW community (ranged DPS).
Question: would most CWs go oppressor if CC was important/ noticeable again in that path, but in exchange for low DPS=you don't kill much? Cause that would be the low DPS path of a secondary DPS class.
You can open a POLL: would you give up a noticeable part of your DPS, to gain strong, significant control?
When you go oppressor, you lose a large portion of your damage (either as MoF or SS) because you either have to give up one of: chilling presence, storm spell, critical conflagration, swath of destruction depending on what class features you were using for orb of imposition and guess what, orb makes barely any difference to your control. Furthermore, you also have to give up either all the damage feats in thaum or all the buffs in renegade. The damage loss is already there, you can see it if you have ever ran with someone who decided to play oppressor, what you do not see is the loss in damage compensated by meaningful control.
Go play Wow or Skyforge and try tell wizards not to do dmg!
PPl came from there are in absolute horror whats happening here with nuke wizards and leave shortly...
I find hillarious and hypocrite that well-fed Fotm GWFs with their imba char which was rolled for paingiver dominating for the 1st place said "dps is not important" and accusing other classes to chase dps too much!
I find also hillarious when GWFs are accousing tanks when mobs are turning to GWFs after using dazing strike or IBS like its their fault!
Yes that should be the thaumaturgy or a new arcane spellcaster class!
I beg to differ as far as control goes. Being one of the games most notable Scoundrels, I should be able to stun, interrupt and root just about everyone. I do very well in PvP... considering my choice to be different. I should be able to, but people chose to have the Scoundrel path decimated to nothing... while allowing HRs to have OP roots and CWs a spammable Repel.
If the CW was good and he was not facing a MI with high Recovery and ITC slotted... he would have had no problems taking him out. Oghma's is a constant on me when I PvP.
I have learned one thing about this game... someone will always find a way to exploit anything if it is possible. It is like Ruler #34... "if it exists there will be HAMSTER related to it". It does nothing to complain about what another has without opening yourself up for scrutiny.
This is not WoW or Skyforge. This in NWO.
I picked my GWF in july 2013 when the class was the weakest of all and the damage was laughable.
Also, my build is not full DPS.
I find hilarious when players like you rage so much on me making their wrong assumptions. Typical.
Will answer to mac when i get back from work and have more time.
I play the build that I have the most fun with. What do I find most fun? Well, it changes based on the different mods.
Back in Mod 5, CWs were control and DPS beasts - we didn't need to sacrifice DPS for control (or vice-versa) - we were able to enjoy both. Back then, I was a pure Thaumaturge, and it was fun being primary paingiver with great control
In early Mod 6 (when there still was the infamous dungeon armor penetration bug) speccing for more control was almost necessary to have a smooth dungeon run. Then, I specced as a Renegade (for buffs) dipped in Oppressor (for Icy Veins) and had the Valindra set. It was fun using arcane singularity and insta-freeze with icy terrain so that teammates could cut down mobs easily. What I was missing out on was Spell Twisting, which I felt most acutely in PvP when up against other CWs that could repel and disintegrate me much quicker than I could them.
So, I switched to Renegade (again for buffs, and chaotic self-heals) but now dipped in Thaum for Spell Twisting. I found that my encounters had enough of a short cooldown that I could still control well enough in PvE (using Conduit of Ice on Tab and Icy Terrain - and using epic Cragmire Crypts as my testing ground), but now could actually compete with the Spell Twisting CWs in PvP.
As the Mods progressed, I experimented with the Oppressor path for PvP primarily. While I could control better, it usually was only practicably noticeable on players that I would have been able to control or kill easily enough anyway. GWFs in sprint or unstoppable were largely immune, DCs with Elven Battle broke free and healed past my Oppressor damage, GFs would prone and AoD which I couldn't do much about, and don't get me started on OPs. And in PvE, Oppressors are the poor-man's CWs: the monsters which do the most damage are control immune, and it would take 3-4 times longer to kills mobs that I would dispatch easily as a Renegade or Thaumaturge. Furthermore, in dungeons, while I would have nice control, it would only really be useful with lower-geared pick up groups where damage would often be lacking already; when running with experienced players, control was often not necessary as we blazed through mobs anyway.
Icy Veins in the Oppressor path was fun initially, but having to get up close to mobs or players can be lethal to a squishy CW (we cannot toe-to-toe fighters e.g. GFs or GWFs easily, nor can we facetank Demogorgon), so I find Icy Veins as having limited value in the way I like playing my CW now: ranged DPS with good utility e.g. buffs with somewhat useful (but not necessary) control.
Right now I see myself as more of a DPS wizard than a control wizard. If Neverwinter had the option for an elemental mage, I would probably play that character. I like this type of playstyle, and the "control wizard" was the closest fit when I started out (I never even heard of a "control wizard" before I started playing this game). Similarly, if dungeons or content were re-designed to actually *require* control, then I would spec for more control. Furthermore, I do not think more control would be the answer in PvP - I really, really, really dislike being on the receiving end of a perma-stun character, hence would not want to inflict that on others
Open world PvP is partially about gears but heavily affected by companions... you dont need CC reduction things, you just need a pig, crab, cocktrice and so, HR would become ur heal bot, 1/3 of CW's attacks are CC, means heals too, TR smoke bomb, I would dance in it... so yea, dont be surpised how open world pvp can be very different than DOM/GG.... :O
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
I can dare say that as of current, there is no CW player in the game that really specializes in CC-oriented and specialized PvP builds and tactics, other than myself. (Well, actually since I've quit this P2W shizbang during mod7, probably nobody right now)
Now, don't get me wrong. I know may excellent CW players. They are true specialists with the CW, probably hordes of CW players play better than myself. Me, I'm a TR main, dabbles in a few other select classes with experimental builds for fun. CW is not my main class at all, so under normal circumstances my playing skill with the CW is extremely limited when compared to real CW experts.
But with totally CC-crazy builds? There are hardly other CW players who have actually built a CW from the bottom up, that from the start, gave up on all damage totally and entirely devoted itself to only CCs -- every possible area of investment and build choices I've devoted everything to CCs, just to see how far it can go. Like, how many CW players know that if you go CC-build for PvP, you don't go SS, but MoF? Not bloody many. Even less who know why.
All I can say is, just before I've quit playing, my latest build stopped using Shield. Against some premade level CW players, I've received swearing, cussin', and death threats in my pm, because I'm supposedly a "cheap, lousy permabuild who can't do shi* alone except bore the hell out of me".... which actually means the CC oriented CW build exactly what I intended with it in the first place: CONTROL.
...well of course, all of the above was before people started using TEB.
The point is, CC-oriented CWs have their own build, and own way of fighting, that actually quite differs from the standard SS/DPS oriented PvP builds, and in most cases it does exactly what you would expect from the word "controller". Like, a fight in the middle happens, and from that point on, anything that's not a GWF, TR, or has TEB, I can take it out from the fight and stop him from doing anything to aid his own team. If it's a class without any inherent CC breakers, I can dribble him from one end of the map to the other like a basketball. If it's a trapper HR, if I get the jump on him, I can do to him the same thing he does to other people.
The CW already has enough control. The problem is other classes which are too omnipotent in their role, or certain items in the game that make obsolete an entire game mechanic, like CCs.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
scoundrel damage in particul is 0 and the path itself does pretty much 0 use of stealth as an offensive tool.
scoundrel control should be on par with control classes, like sentinel gwfs should have a way to actually get aggro and a better management of determination.
The CW still has *some* control, but mostly, it takes a secondary role to what else a CW can do, which is ranged damage. Because of the ineffectiveness of control against certain classes/builds/enchants, the marginal benefit gained from an increase in DPS outweighs the marginal benefit gained from an increase in control, in my opinion. I think most other CWs are aware of this, intuitively or by trial-and-error, and hence the proliferation of similarly built DPS CWs in PvP. I'm not saying this is a good thing, having one playstyle dominate the field, but that's how it is. (Just to note, however, I appreciated what you added to the field of what a CW can do
Judging by the responses above, some try to categorise CWs into certain roles (i.e. Primary Controller/Secondary Striker) when CWs will naturally gravitate towards the path which offers the greatest advantage. Whether or not CWs would want more control would depend on what is really being offered. If it is a chance to perma-stun even against TEB in PvP, then I would not take it, on principle - but others might. If it is a chance of actually being able to freeze bosses, or cause interrupts, then I would be tempted to try it out again at least.
Who's asking for more cc?
What kind of authority you are thinking to have that you are pressuring ppl to know their place...?
Every class has a right to do dps with the right paragon tree!
I have been calling for this... for the longest time now. If I do get some balance on this build... YIKES!
The basic premise of RPGs -- and in close relation, the basic premise of game balance, resides in role diversion. It doesn't have to be a pre-set role like controller or striker or whatever, but what it needs to be is a conscious choice between certain positive qualities that inadvertently implies a matching negative quality which follows.. As it is, the CW is actually the only class in the game which abides by these rules. Other classes have long passed through that line and in one way or another, becoming source of imbalance. None of the conventional "rules" apply to those any more. Classes like the GWF or the TRs can basically do whatever they want and get away with it. They don't need any heal support or CC support or anyone else behind their back. They don't suffer the choice between hard controls / utility / dps. In a sense they can just have everything at their disposal.
Hence, everone else's concept of balance have also been focused and tweaked to that insane/abnormal behavior the GWF/TRs can display, and everyone questions, "Man, why can't my class do shi* like those GWF/TRs can?", and afterwards, everyone starts to think being able to 1v1 like the GWF/TR, being able to multi v 1 like the GWF/TR, and being able to kill stuff like the GWF/TR, and being able to survive any odds like the GWF/TR.... is what it means to be 'balanced'. When it isn't.
In the end, people start talking roles, because as archaic it may be, IT WORKS.
Well, it certainly works a helluva lot better than this crazy imbalanced chaos where every wannabe chants "oh noes, 'roles' is an old and outdated concept, and I don't want that. I want my class to be able to do everything at any circumstances with zero repercussions. Limiting abilities and specifications according to roles is a stupid old idea".
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'