Guilds and Stronghold will become a not so safe place IMHO unless your the guild leader

djionicsxb1 · October 2015

Ok I am not going to say ALL guilds are egotistical money spending wannabees, but many a guild think they are the dogs*, and I am sure they will work hard in recruiting and building for stronghold.

But there is such a big flaw in the way that the principle of stronghold works.

Examples,

1) I am elite player and I play 24/7 to help my guild get XYZ with stronghold and just because I had an altercation with one of leaders of my guild the day before we can build/buy our armour I get kicked after XYZ months of grinding. What do I get from all my work in helping guild ?

Answer Nothing.

2) I am casual player in a small guild and dont play that much, but when I can I help the guild. Then somewhere down the line the guild leaders think I am not active enough or not helping enough so they kick me for new blood. What do I get for my small bit of help towards stronghold ?

Answer Oh look NOTHING again.

Whatever and whoever you are in any guild unless you are the SOLE leader of a guild you CAN and could be kicked. Many people will come and say that "this wont happen in our guild" we are a tight knit group of 20+ players etc etc, but it COULD happen is what I am trying to say.

So while I love the stronghold concept it should also go on a MVP (most valuable player) system. IE what YOU as a player put in, should be accredited to you the player and so IF you were to get kicked the guild loses the equivalent in resources/buildings etc etc so that if you have to go to another league then you havent lost it ALL.

Loot and boot became a problem and they fixed it, but in the coming months I can see a build and boot from guilds.

Anyway mock me or say what you like, at least this needs to be discussed.

Thanks

proudbowdy · October 2015

I can see this becoming a issue aswell

if a leader decides to kick someone over a disagreement I don't class that as leadership quality at all and if stuff like you mentioned happend on a regular basis I don't imagine a guild that has a habit of kicking members over small things would remain very active for very long anyway

bkt5789 · October 2015

I agree however the best defense is our own judge of character, if your guild leader seems that cutthroat then you shouldn't have joined his guild.

I'm a guild leader and I see these as being issues as well, I personally would not kick people out of my guild. I have people in my guild who work off shore, have busy jobs, and are also parents. I would never kick them out for being casual.

I see it this way, I really only need to have 20 active people at a time, and I have space for 150 people. That's plenty for me, I have no need to kick someone out, cause the limit is generous enough for me.

djionicsxb1 · October 2015

proudbowdy said:
I can see this becoming a issue aswell

if a leader decides to kick someone over a disagreement I don't class that as leadership quality at all and if stuff like you mentioned happend on a regular basis I don't imagine a guild that has a habit of kicking members over small things would remain very active for very long anyway

I get your point, but how well do you know the people in your guild ? Some will say I have been playing with them since day 1 etc etc. There have been many guilds that thought they was the best and fell apart just as quick as they were built, but now stronghold will add added pressure on you the player to play, to give to the guild or be kicked ? And even if you have given all you can give they could think that was not enough and kick you without reason and without any sort of loss to what you have already given (however little they might think it is to them as a guild). Then you have got to go find another guild and lets say you was in a top guild etc etc and you try getting into another top guild whats going to happen?

I just think it could get very messy and some players could get very pished in the coming months for reason X, Y or Z and guilds could become a big talking point on the forums because of stronghold and kicking

djionicsxb1 · October 2015

bkt5789 said:
I agree however the best defense is our own judge of character, if your guild leader seems that cutthroat then you shouldn't have joined his guild.

I'm a guild leader and I see these as being issues as well, I personally would not kick people out of my guild. I have people in my guild who work off shore, have busy jobs, and are also parents. I would never kick them out for being casual.

I see it this way, I really only need to have 20 active people at a time, and I have space for 150 people. That's plenty for me, I have no need to kick someone out, cause the limit is generous enough for me.

Yes a laid back guild leader who, from what you say wont care about how long it takes to get stronghold gear/builds etc etc. And that most probably will be fine and people may come and go because your not an "Elite" guild pushing hard for the stronghold and it should in principle work for your guild. But even if thats the case if someone wants to leave after they have put a there time into helping your guild, they should be accredited for some of that.

Other guilds will be more cutthroat because even with 150 players it going to need a lot of time to build everything asap to get the BiS and you know how people like there egos in games like this.

proudbowdy · October 2015

null I have nearly 1000 + plus hours put into nw I imagine that will increase alot further but I have been in and out of alot of guilds and seen everything from boot looting own members to leaders robbing/scamming there own members and extreme rage if they wiped etc etc.
not all where bad guilds I just didn't feel like the paticuler guild was right for me the majority of the time

But I kept searching for a place that felt right for me my current guild I only have been in a couple of weeks before that longest I lasted was 4-5 days in a guild and have to say its the most fun I have had recently and yes they might kick me in the future but as of right now they have the right attitude I haven't seen any rage or big ego players just relaxed players enjoying the content and helping each other progress

And if I'm kicked in the future so be it ill go back to guild hopping untill I can find the right guild for me again

littlevale · October 2015

bkt5789 said:
I agree however the best defense is our own judge of character, if your guild leader seems that cutthroat then you shouldn't have joined his guild.

I'm a guild leader and I see these as being issues as well, I personally would not kick people out of my guild. I have people in my guild who work off shore, have busy jobs, and are also parents. I would never kick them out for being casual.

I see it this way, I really only need to have 20 active people at a time, and I have space for 150 people. That's plenty for me, I have no need to kick someone out, cause the limit is generous enough for me.

My guild is run (and was founded) the same way. *high-five*

It is unfortunate that Strongholds have the potential to rebirth "boot 'n loot" and I surely hope that no one's hard work is taken advantage of. While we can read the wikis, lurk in the PC forums, and research all we want...the firsthand experience is going to be the most beneficial in finding what works for YOUR guild's Stronghold, imo.

virtueofcyanide said:
Leadership is 100% responsibility though most see it as 100% privilege. Responsibility is a part of a system that really works. Assuming privilege is ALWAYS a cornerstone for failure.
[snip]
In the end, leaving is something that should be planned and considered very carefully. It's really a no-brainer that contributions should be kept at a minimum until you know what you're dealing with.

This.

pbrand45 · October 2015

Yes it is a risk involved playing the game and it would be upsetting if happened to me. I'm willing to take that risk and continue playing , if someone is not willing to take that risk then don't play the game . It has been an issue on PC and they have made petitions to change this, hopefully the devs do change it in the near future , but I wouldn't hold your breath.

bkt5789 · October 2015

Isn't the guild map on strong holds limited to 20 people at a time though? So that means that unless the game gives guilds multiple maps then I see a lot of booting going on. Especially after people put in all that work into the guild stronghold that's just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up.

@dynamitelotus high five! Guild allies? Lol

ancojo · October 2015

I've already brought up this issue once before and some numpty asked me why I had done so and why I didn't reply to the original PC thread! This is going to be a massive issue on Xbox, I personally think console gamers are worse than PC ones attitude wise! Give it a month or 2 maybe even less and this forum will be full of people complaining about this very such issue, this is the reason I wont be donating a single thing to any guild until they change this or until I stupidly make my own guild were no one is kicked (Oh look I can say that aswel "I wont kick" However annoy me in any way and I'll boot you out or threaten to do so unless you give me all your gold) Yeah I'm joking but am I really?

Thats the main issue here "Trust" and I trust no one! Its funny how many come and say they wouldn't do this, they have a good guild and maybe they do but who knows and again thats the problem, you just do not know and trusting some random gamer not to boot you just for the fun of it is taking a chance I would not be willing to take.

These decisions do make me wonder about the mentality of the devs, if the boot/loot issue wasn't bad enough you aint seen nothing yet!

Take my advice either make your own guild or join a guild and contribute NOTHING then you wont loose anything earned when your booted as you wont have put in anything so anything gained was free, after all this is supposed to be a free to play game!

yourenext2die · October 2015

ancojo said:

Take my advice either make your own guild or join a guild and contribute NOTHING then you wont loose anything earned when your booted as you wont have put in anything so anything gained was free, after all this is supposed to be a free to play game!

Well then this is a sure way to get booted. Then you're back to starting over with another guild. If you join a guild then you're agreeing to help and contribute to accomplish a set goals as a team player. Purposely going out of your way to not contribute is well deserving of a kick. Good luck on acquiring your BIS gear then.

armadeonx · October 2015

I put a few comments on this subject on a similar thread on the PC forums - someone posted saying their guild leader sold the guild for cash and the new guy started kicking anyone who objected AND anyone who TALKED to those he kicked.

Guilds need good members to stay alive. However, once a stronghold has been built, the guild itself takes on value irrespective of members. It is entirely conceivable that some people will not be able to resist selling this valuable asset.

The root of this problem is that guilds are essentially monarchies. One person owns all of the guilds assets regardless of which members donated them

My suggestion was similar to djion in that guilds could have a twin-cost system of initial purchase and player investment credit (pic).

The initial purchase essentially being for the 'structure'.

Players would earn an individual 'pic' rating through donating.

The guild would purchase the upgrade but also need a sufficient 'pic' total from its membership, equivalent to that required to keep the upgrade functional. If pic numbers fall then an upgrade may be unusable until numbers pick up again.

This would mean:
For the ordinary membership, if they have a good pic rating they would be valuable to any guild.
Ownership stays with the guild and as long as they have a good member pool wouldn't lose anything through someone leaving.
New players can join smaller/more casual guilds or start their own and build up their personal rating - then have the option of moving to a more pro guild or continue expanding their current guild if it's a good place.

Funnily enough the only objections I got to this suggestion were from guild leaders. This doesn't really shift the power into the hands of the membership as the guild still owns the structure but it does mean they have to run a guild well enough to keep their members and those members do not lose everything if they move/are forced out.

ancojo · October 2015

yourenext2die said:

ancojo said:

Take my advice either make your own guild or join a guild and contribute NOTHING then you wont loose anything earned when your booted as you wont have put in anything so anything gained was free, after all this is supposed to be a free to play game!
Well then this is a sure way to get booted. Then you're back to starting over with another guild. If you join a guild then you're agreeing to help and contribute to accomplish a set goals as a team player. Purposely going out of your way to not contribute is well deserving of a kick. Good luck on acquiring your BIS gear then.

It was a tad sarcastic but if you hav a chance you can earn your "Bis" from contributing nothing and then loose your "Bis" By being booted its far, far, far better than to contribute stupids amounts to get your "Bis" Only to be booted out of the guild for some reason and still loose your "Bis"

The Bis from Stongholds is a total waste of time and effort if theres a chance you could loose that "Bis" At any moment the Guild leader decides to get rid of you. Tip - DO NOT get rid of your 2nd best gear if you manage to get the Bis from Strongholds, imagine being booted only to realise you have no other gear!

Its madness to have to have this as an option, all that hard earned work will be for nothing and will do just one thing when you get booted, and it will happen, its just going to turn even more players away from the game! Can anyone seriously agree with this formula? Yet again it could easily be resolved by letting you take what you earned with you when you are booted? Is that so hard to implement? I'd love to know the reasoning behind this mind boggling decision thats already affected the PC version but then again we all know that PC issues always come to the Xbox because the devs/decision makers are to stupid to resolve them before hand!

For those trying to defend this issue please, please, please post back if it happens to you and then repeat your defence just so I can laugh at you!

bkt5789 · October 2015

I don't really go out of my way to recruit, I'll get my gear with my current actives eventually if I must. But why hog that ability to get my best in slot gear to myself? I wanna share it, and make more friends that wanna join in with me on this endeavor. I don't really want a guild where we have to find pugs to do dungeon running. Right now my guild is used to respectfully bowing out when there is an odd number of people on that can't run but everyone is still happy. Even I will bow out of dungeon running so that all my new friends in my guild can get their caches and their gear. After all at that point I can meet new people and make new friends with like minds to join me.

Really if you get with a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> guild leader (mmorpg bring out the worst in people), you're going to get shitted on. I told my guildies/friends that if they want to leave for the bigger guilds they can, I won't take it personally. But after this conversation which was guild wide, the guildies decided they want to stay because we trust each other more than these other guilds and they brought up reasons being mentioned in this thread.

As a group we are all farming campaign currencies, and putting aside many things to level up our stronghold.

rockstargfu · October 2015

Viable point, and sad thing is if guilds built up, ppl cant up and say this guild is immoral im leaving, in an attempt to break the guild down by any measure. No they will stay and try to appear active so they dont get kicked and lose all the benefits with you.

Guild gets the power play of i kicked him and youd be a fool to just up and leave

bkt5789 · October 2015

I agree I don't like it at all. I wonder if we can fill out a petition to have how it all works change?

There is also the issue of cliques which plague guilds when they get larger - it can't be avoided. People will find a group that they prefer to be with. My guild has discussed this in depth and we decided that if we were lucky enough to find enough people to have such a problem, we would not mind but we would try and work with those that are not included in said cliques.

armadeonx · October 2015

ancojo said:

The Bis from Stongholds is a total waste of time and effort if theres a chance you could loose that "Bis" At any moment the Guild leader decides to get rid of you. Tip - DO NOT get rid of your 2nd best gear if you manage to get the Bis from Strongholds, imagine being booted only to realise you have no other gear!

Are you saying keeping the new armor is dependent on being in the guild - i.e. if you leave the guild then you lose the armor?

regenerde · October 2015

http://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/1205873/we-need-more-protection-against-guilds-being-sold-or-leaders-going-mental
this is from the PC side.

My suggestion:
If a player gets kicked out of a guild, he would get his donations back in Stronghold Vouchers.

If a player decides to leave a guild, he would get 25-75% of his donations back in Stronghold Vouchers, depending on his time being in the guild and how much resources he has donated during that time.

Those vouchers could be donated again, but they would not grant any additional guild marks.
The resources loss itself would come up as "main contribution target", any building/upgrade in progress would be put on hold until the loss is refilled.

Anyway, until there're changes made to secure donations in some way, i would not buy any Stronghold Pack from the ZEN shop or the AH, or even donate any AD into the guild coffer.
Even if you are really carefull in choosing your guild, there is still the chance that you can get kicked out of the guild at any time, and with that you will lose all the Stronghold benefits you played or paid real money for...

About the guild equipment, you only need enough guild marks and access to the market to buy it. You don't need to be in a guild to use it, and the equipment is also account wide.

xristopher1024 · October 2015

Do you not get guild marks for all your donations (depending on donation values)?

My understanding is those guild marks are yours as you use them as currency to purchase items from the various stronghold marketplace shops. If you get kicked from a guild, those marks go with you so you really don't lose the value of your donations.

The only thing you can lose is how far along that particular guilds stronghold is and if you join another guild that is not as far along, you have to wait (and probably donate more) to get to the same point but you still have your guild marks. Inversely, you could potentially join another guild that is much further along and reap those benefits. Which could be a potential issue for guilds where members could jump guilds to get into one where it is further along. So the sword could cut both ways.

yourenext2die · October 2015

Many people simply lack the leadership and organizational skill required to properly run a large active guild. Someone gets a taste of being in charge and it goes to their head. For others, their immaturity starts to show. I'm not in a guild myself right now but I've been in leadership roles for years.

SGT 1/23 INF

Power hungry noobs.

yourenext2die · October 2015

virtueofcyanide said:
@yourenext2die

You're absolutely right. You should start to consider starting a guild....

I was actually contemplating it for a while until the Strongholds release date came out, to start one so close to launch would be setting myself up for failure. Way back when the game first came to XBOX I was a 15K GWF with "Well Endowed." Then I changed to a TR and have been riding solo ever since.

icecold40 · October 2015

I'm currently the guild leader of a very small guild about 20 people, and anyone is free to join. I don't kick anyone so if anyone wants to join send a message to my g t DRUNKOFF FORTYS. I'll be online tomorrow

regenerde · October 2015

The worth of guild marks...
- when you have your equipment set
- when you can't get invited into a guild with an open market
- when better equipment is released with Underdark
maybe close to nothing.

Refunded Stronghold Vouchers on the other hand could...
+ help you getting into a guild with an open market
+ help you in your new guild with getting better guild boons
become a good reason for a guild leader to think twice about random member kicking.

Anyway, this might become more interesting, when the first Xbox players have spend time and money to progress their guild Stronghold, but one day just get kicked out of their guild, and find them self standing in the rain with pretty much nothing in their hand, after spending money and time into the guild.

mahburg · October 2015

Interesting thread I am leader of a Small guild and we have only kicked people whose interpersonal behavior is unacceptable to the members, I never kick anyone, it goes to a communal decision and the Sgt at Arms or designee does the kicking once I sign off on it.
That being said, I do wonder how many of the complainers on here put up the insane AD needed for the bank tabs?
The leader or initial founder has to stump that up, not sure why when the game is structured in this way folk should be surprised that some GL's can be a bit dictatorial, after all they put up the stuff to form it did they not?

As I said I don't work that way but I am not surprised some folk think and behave the way they do.

Removing the AD sink that is the Guild bank would help a lot imho!

regenerde · October 2015

... and your guild bank tab would have to do what exactly with a guild Stronghold?
Or what have the resources being brought in by other guild members to build/upgrade a guild Stronghold to do with your guild bank?

This thread is about
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/xbox/neverwinter/news/detail/9589133-strongholds-coming-to-neverwinter-xbox-one!
and what allready happened on the PC side to some players regarding investing time and money to build/upgrade a guild Stronghold, and suddenly being kicked out of the guild without any good reason at all.

The Devs should really take a moment to come up with either own ideas on this problem, or take up on ideas presented by players.

mahburg · October 2015

regenerde said:
... and your guild bank tab would have to do what exactly with a guild Stronghold?
Or what have the resources being brought in by other guild members to build/upgrade a guild Stronghold to do with your guild bank?

This thread is about
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/xbox/neverwinter/news/detail/9589133-strongholds-coming-to-neverwinter-xbox-one!
and what allready happened on the PC side to some players regarding investing time and money to build/upgrade a guild Stronghold, and suddenly being kicked out of the guild without any good reason at all.

The Devs should really take a moment to come up with either own ideas on this problem, or take up on ideas presented by players.

Its about how the mindset evolves, if you thought before firing off the gun, you might realise what someone is actually saying rather than what you imagine they are saying.
Guild leaders are human beings like the rest of us some will be scumbags some wont, some will move across the spectrum based on experience.
Strongholds is going to do the same thing as it will have sinks from what I understand, I am waiting to see how the strain will be spread across the guild as we all are.
However if the Guild leader is left to shoulder the bulk of the burden don't be surprised if he eventually develops a my way or the highway attitude.
The answer is for the Devs to stop placing players in a potential conflict situation due to how they have structured the game.
Hopefully that makes it clear enough for you

randomdigits · October 2015

Seeing how from hundreds of active guilds at the early launch of Mod 5 we went to just half a dozen (see the pinned thread in this forum) makes me highly skeptical that PvP part of Strongholds is going to be of any importance to the majority of remaining NW XB1 community.

One of the main reasons imho is that on PC guilds could be held together through keyboard chat, on Xbox the chat is pretty much dysfunctional and voice chat is used primarily by the hardcore players.

armadeonx · October 2015

I'm fine with the thought of everyone including myself donating small but regular amounts of AD and gold toward a stonghold. E.g. if all 150 members donate 2k AD and 5 gold per week that's 300k AD and 750g every week toward upgrades - plus all the mining/farming whatever.

I'm actually planning on putting an upfront 50k AD and 200g to help kick things off - bear in mind I'm not rich like some. Across 3 characters I currently have about 100k AD and 550g so for me that's a decent amount. The only thing that concerns me is security on investment - there isn't any. Marks are ok as a way of ensuring you have a personal capital return from your farming efforts but it doesn't transfer any building/input credit to your new guild which would make you a 'good pick' for a guild you're applying to.

I think at the absolute very least they should introduce a ranked title system (like professions) that show whether you're a good donator - that would be attractive to a new guild as it show you're a person who pulls your weight.

regenerde · October 2015

Well, i'm trying to get a full list of costs for Strongholds here
http://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/1206948/total-stronghold-costs
but no usefull answer at the moment in there.

There was a thread somewhere about those actual costs, and there it was stated, that building and upgrading a Stronghold will cost you millions of AD alone.
Then add to those costs of course gold, enchantments, equipment, influence (with a daily cap per character of course), shards from PvE and PvP daily quests, and campaign currency.

Building and upgrading costs time too, i think somewhere 190 days in total were mentioned.

Are you starting to get the picture?

ironzerg79 · October 2015

First, the guild Stronghold is meant to be a project that could take months and months, if not years. It's not something that's mean to be "finished" in one module. Don't go in with the expectation that it's going to be built quickly.

Second, it's foolish for guild leaders to kick someone who's regularly contributing to the guild over petty stuff...why? See point one. If you kick people who are actively donating, your progress is going to stall. If your progress stalls, people are going to get even more frustrated and leave (especially knowing that a good donor was booted). Your guild is then going to shrivel up and die.

Third, if this is your guild, and you're worried that you guild leader is such a [bad kitten] that he could randomly kick people out on a whim, leave now. Don't even risk it. There's plenty of guilds looking for great people. Abandon ship now before you even start donating.

Fourth, if you DO get kicked out a guild, all you lose is what you've donated. Your keep anything you've purchased from the market, and any guild marks you've accumulated. You'll also lose access to that guild's boons, but again...these things are expensive and take a long time to build...you're better off in the long run getting kicked and joining a real guild, then live under the fear and shadow of a dictator GL.

blindmonkeyz · October 2015

^^^ Very well said. I am a co-leader myself and we just absorbed a few guilds into ours to become stronger, we have on average of 26 players at all times throughout the day and night. Only time we would even kick someone would be if they were inactive for 2 months without telling us they are inactive. Otherwise we wont kick anyone. Everyone needs a home, a guild is a home on Neverwinter. I wish all of the other guilds the best and lets enjoy this fun game

Guilds and Stronghold will become a not so safe place IMHO unless your the guild leader

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