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Honest and Unbiased FEEDBACK to the new Stronghold PvP
kweassa
Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
PROS
■ If there is anything I can look highly upon with the new SHPvP, it's the environment. Getting out of that small, confined, artificial-feeling "arena" type of environment, and put into a much more natural looking environment was surprisingly refreshing.
■ Seasoned and experienced veterans of PvP (across all types of games) know that a "natural environment", more commonly referred to as "open world PvP" provides a quite unique and different experience from confined, "arena" type PvP. The latter usually takes form of that resembling a sports match, like football or basketball, while the former allow for a more lenient and fluent fighting experience where a lot of different and new elements come into play, such as large-scale tactics, more active use environmental advantages, clever LOS(line-of-sight) tricks, and etc etc..
■ OPvP, however, in most cases, are usually plagued with severe problems of its own, most of it usually being severe numbers imbalance. In that sense, SH offers a "pseudo-OPvP" experience in a very large map with a lot of terrain features. I found it thoroughly enjoyable in hiding in the corners of the town, sneaking behind the hills and bushes, waiting for an ambush behind tree-trunks, and finding high cliff like terrain to rain down with arrows.
■ The different strategic elements were easy to understand. Yes, I've played the "SH Training" quests before they were pulled out for some sort of fix. However, I didn't really pay attention to all the texts during the quest. But in the actual SH match, at first I couldn't remember anything from the "Training Quests", but after playing a while it was apparently quite easy to understand.
■ Basically, it would be a lot easier to understand if you realized that it is essentially a large-scale AoS genre game. I feel particularly proud of this, because I've actually suggested that NW implement a new game-play type which was basically a large-scale AoS game. Of course, I'm sure the devs already have had that idea for ages, as well as a lot of other people probably suggested it as well. But in essence, yes, SH is a big AoS type game, and therefore anyone who has any kind of experience in games like DOTA or LoL or the more recent Heroes of the Storm from Blizzard, would immediately realize how it should be played.
■ As strange as it might sound for some people, I actually find myself being relieved that SH is different from what people expected. Yes, the fact that the game is not a "your guild's stronghold versus the other guild's stronghold" does seem to suddenly make all those PvE quests you did in your Stronghold map seem moot. At first, I also thought that upgrading this, putting archer towers here, sorceror's tower there, and all this stuff meant that we'd actually be able to see those guild customizations in the map... and losing a SH fight would mean our infrastructure would be damaged and destroyed.. and winning would mean that we'd get to plunder the other guild's coffers for riches and treasure. So it seemed like a letdown.
■ But then I realized, that probably means the current 3~4 strongest guilds in the game would basically exploit the hell out of the entire guild community to become superpowers, while all the other smaller guilds are victimized. Don't deny this. You know it's the truth, that every time your guild queues, you'll be meeting a handful of those "you-know-who" guilds whom you have no way on Earth to defeat. Everytime, some of them will be queueing, and everytime, your SH will be plundered.
■ So in general, this "queue-up" system, I actually find to be a good idea. If anything, it helps those smaller guilds to still be part of the game and have fun. I'm not sure how the exact matchmaking works yet, but from a glance, it looks like the queue is placing East/West according to guilds, so all people from the same guild will always be in the same faction. We'll have to see if this system is more 'fair' than what we have in Domi or GG.
CONS
■ The lag. Yes, everytime a new area is introduced, it happens. Remember IWD at its opening day, anyone?
■ In general, having a great big map to operate in was a good idea, but I'm kind of getting the feeling that the current map might be a little too "empty." I get the impression that the devs were trying to keep the system 'clean', without too many clutters in the map, but at this point I think it might have been a better idea to just faithfully "copycat" some of the elements that make modern AoS games so popular and fun.
■ More NPCs would have been nice. Most AoS type games have considerable number of AI troops to simulate the feeling of an all-out battle. The pack horses and engineers aren't too bad, but I think it would have been more fun if the 'Captain' type NPCs weren't so few. It would have been better if they were grouped in 5 like troops, and the variety of resources the players gather would help them spawn faster to provide a "push" to each of the three lines.
■ If NPCs spawned in combat groups, then we could have seen more variety of them... melee NPCs.. .archer NPCs.. healer NPCs.. caster NPCs.. and etc etc..
■ The Supply Depots are just too easy to take and turn over. It makes it too easy for a pair of very strong players to 'infiltrate' the lines and just make the efforts of many people go to waste. I feel it could have been better if they were more 'fortified positions' than 'supply depots'. Like mentioned above, supplies people bring in would fortify the foremost 'frontline' position further, where the NPC troops will periodically spawn and make towards each others' position.
■ The Golem NPCs sort of seem too lackluster, as well as easy. I feel it would have been better if they were stronger, of more variety, and provided a direct 'timed buff' as with other AoS games -- like, "kill a very powerful Ogrelord and his minions, and the entire team receives a +15% damage boost for 180 seconds"... this would then make hunting these NPCs a much more tactical and crucial choice, and as a result a lot more interesting fights near these NPCs might ensue.
■ This, I feel, is a must. Needs more visual and direct information queues. Would it have been so difficult to try and implement "fight is happening" legend on the map screen? Like a big flash, or a "X" mark, or something? Currently, the feel of SH is very "loose" because its hard to see what is going on where. Hence a lot of people not used to SH just aimlessly wander around. In Domi or GG we'd at least have the domination meter. I feel an audible/visual queue, indicating a 'clash' is happening somewhere (instead of the yellow information text which nobody reads) is greatly needed.
OVERALL
■ I think SH is a good attempt. I feel it has strong potential -- but not in its current form. It could use a few more tweaks and features. Yes, Cryptic has made some very, very bad decisions in regards to PvP, especially with general balance. However, I don't think SH is one of those mistakes. Viewed from a purely game/mechanic standpoint, it is a worthy attempt to try and reproduce the very popular AOS-genre gameplay within a MMOG format, and I feel it can work.
■ However, like said, to really work, for the potential to really take flight, it needs some more crucial features. A bit more tweaks, and the devs need to keep their ears open for feedback to make this even better.
■ If there is anything I can look highly upon with the new SHPvP, it's the environment. Getting out of that small, confined, artificial-feeling "arena" type of environment, and put into a much more natural looking environment was surprisingly refreshing.
■ Seasoned and experienced veterans of PvP (across all types of games) know that a "natural environment", more commonly referred to as "open world PvP" provides a quite unique and different experience from confined, "arena" type PvP. The latter usually takes form of that resembling a sports match, like football or basketball, while the former allow for a more lenient and fluent fighting experience where a lot of different and new elements come into play, such as large-scale tactics, more active use environmental advantages, clever LOS(line-of-sight) tricks, and etc etc..
■ OPvP, however, in most cases, are usually plagued with severe problems of its own, most of it usually being severe numbers imbalance. In that sense, SH offers a "pseudo-OPvP" experience in a very large map with a lot of terrain features. I found it thoroughly enjoyable in hiding in the corners of the town, sneaking behind the hills and bushes, waiting for an ambush behind tree-trunks, and finding high cliff like terrain to rain down with arrows.
■ The different strategic elements were easy to understand. Yes, I've played the "SH Training" quests before they were pulled out for some sort of fix. However, I didn't really pay attention to all the texts during the quest. But in the actual SH match, at first I couldn't remember anything from the "Training Quests", but after playing a while it was apparently quite easy to understand.
■ Basically, it would be a lot easier to understand if you realized that it is essentially a large-scale AoS genre game. I feel particularly proud of this, because I've actually suggested that NW implement a new game-play type which was basically a large-scale AoS game. Of course, I'm sure the devs already have had that idea for ages, as well as a lot of other people probably suggested it as well. But in essence, yes, SH is a big AoS type game, and therefore anyone who has any kind of experience in games like DOTA or LoL or the more recent Heroes of the Storm from Blizzard, would immediately realize how it should be played.
■ As strange as it might sound for some people, I actually find myself being relieved that SH is different from what people expected. Yes, the fact that the game is not a "your guild's stronghold versus the other guild's stronghold" does seem to suddenly make all those PvE quests you did in your Stronghold map seem moot. At first, I also thought that upgrading this, putting archer towers here, sorceror's tower there, and all this stuff meant that we'd actually be able to see those guild customizations in the map... and losing a SH fight would mean our infrastructure would be damaged and destroyed.. and winning would mean that we'd get to plunder the other guild's coffers for riches and treasure. So it seemed like a letdown.
■ But then I realized, that probably means the current 3~4 strongest guilds in the game would basically exploit the hell out of the entire guild community to become superpowers, while all the other smaller guilds are victimized. Don't deny this. You know it's the truth, that every time your guild queues, you'll be meeting a handful of those "you-know-who" guilds whom you have no way on Earth to defeat. Everytime, some of them will be queueing, and everytime, your SH will be plundered.
■ So in general, this "queue-up" system, I actually find to be a good idea. If anything, it helps those smaller guilds to still be part of the game and have fun. I'm not sure how the exact matchmaking works yet, but from a glance, it looks like the queue is placing East/West according to guilds, so all people from the same guild will always be in the same faction. We'll have to see if this system is more 'fair' than what we have in Domi or GG.
CONS
■ The lag. Yes, everytime a new area is introduced, it happens. Remember IWD at its opening day, anyone?
■ In general, having a great big map to operate in was a good idea, but I'm kind of getting the feeling that the current map might be a little too "empty." I get the impression that the devs were trying to keep the system 'clean', without too many clutters in the map, but at this point I think it might have been a better idea to just faithfully "copycat" some of the elements that make modern AoS games so popular and fun.
■ More NPCs would have been nice. Most AoS type games have considerable number of AI troops to simulate the feeling of an all-out battle. The pack horses and engineers aren't too bad, but I think it would have been more fun if the 'Captain' type NPCs weren't so few. It would have been better if they were grouped in 5 like troops, and the variety of resources the players gather would help them spawn faster to provide a "push" to each of the three lines.
■ If NPCs spawned in combat groups, then we could have seen more variety of them... melee NPCs.. .archer NPCs.. healer NPCs.. caster NPCs.. and etc etc..
■ The Supply Depots are just too easy to take and turn over. It makes it too easy for a pair of very strong players to 'infiltrate' the lines and just make the efforts of many people go to waste. I feel it could have been better if they were more 'fortified positions' than 'supply depots'. Like mentioned above, supplies people bring in would fortify the foremost 'frontline' position further, where the NPC troops will periodically spawn and make towards each others' position.
■ The Golem NPCs sort of seem too lackluster, as well as easy. I feel it would have been better if they were stronger, of more variety, and provided a direct 'timed buff' as with other AoS games -- like, "kill a very powerful Ogrelord and his minions, and the entire team receives a +15% damage boost for 180 seconds"... this would then make hunting these NPCs a much more tactical and crucial choice, and as a result a lot more interesting fights near these NPCs might ensue.
■ This, I feel, is a must. Needs more visual and direct information queues. Would it have been so difficult to try and implement "fight is happening" legend on the map screen? Like a big flash, or a "X" mark, or something? Currently, the feel of SH is very "loose" because its hard to see what is going on where. Hence a lot of people not used to SH just aimlessly wander around. In Domi or GG we'd at least have the domination meter. I feel an audible/visual queue, indicating a 'clash' is happening somewhere (instead of the yellow information text which nobody reads) is greatly needed.
OVERALL
■ I think SH is a good attempt. I feel it has strong potential -- but not in its current form. It could use a few more tweaks and features. Yes, Cryptic has made some very, very bad decisions in regards to PvP, especially with general balance. However, I don't think SH is one of those mistakes. Viewed from a purely game/mechanic standpoint, it is a worthy attempt to try and reproduce the very popular AOS-genre gameplay within a MMOG format, and I feel it can work.
■ However, like said, to really work, for the potential to really take flight, it needs some more crucial features. A bit more tweaks, and the devs need to keep their ears open for feedback to make this even better.
Stop making excuses. Be a man.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
0
Comments
It is a good basic 3-tiered chocolate cake... it just needs to be put together and have the right things added to send it to the next level.
The effort to "push" the lane in good, large-scale, terrific fights should be the essence of any good AOS-type game, and so should it be with SH, but like mentioned, it's just send one or two "covert operatives" behind the frontlines and disrupt the supply depots, and the foremost catapult base is just neutralized.
Hence, the suggestions in regards to "combat troop NPCs", and changing the supply depots into "fortified positions" which can't just be "backcapped" like in Domi or GG. My other suggestion, "visual queues for 'hotspots'" should also help. Many cases, people don't see which supply depot is being "stolen" until too late.
The warning signs and visual/audible queues should easily notify people to identify where the action is taking place. The more people gather to these 'hotspots', the larger scale the fights would be.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
boring laggy area too big confusing too long ppl (including me) have no idea where to go what to do.
last time i made my best efforts to earn points got 225 and got no freaking reward in the end thanx al lot!
all pvpers already got their gear and will not go there again. why? same reasons mentioned above.
same in my case. question is how long will it take me to get that gear. since so far i lost 7 matchs in a row. since two pvp top guilds farmed that area first two days and are now done with it.
1) lag... Incredible lag.
2) minimum time for the game too high
3) once a catapult is built you should not be able to backcap the depots but push from the start of the lane.
4) map really too big and empty, being able to teleport freely to the stronghold more than once would help a bit
- way to get new items (sets)
Cons:
- laggy as hell (btw IWD is laggy even now, when is empty)
- lack of communications (I'm not a moba player, but simple marks on map shuld help) - chaos
- no pvp (hard to meet anybody)
- new bugs implemented with module (stamina/aP drain)
My plan: gather sets. Wait new module since we can't even earn any AD. Avoid pvp till they fix bugs.
As some1 said before. Extraordinary talent. Killing the game using expansions. Just a Craptic.
.Suicide Squad.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
again- GG CRAPTIC, keep going and this game will die soon.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
I have been skunked twice but I did a lot of fighting and capped several Supply depos
So... not sure I like it
But to be honest, this is what's gonna happen. As soon as the big pvp guilds have got all their new gear, shpvp queues will get longer. Then, as every guild that currently has, or almost has, a lvl4 marketplace gets their pvp gear... shpvp will turn into IWD. There is absolutely zero reason to go back there afterwards, beyond masochism.
The only thing I can think of is big pvp guilds cooperating once in a blue moon to fill an instance and have show matches.
A few additions I would add, maybe you want to update your OP.
1) Reduce the player count on each side to 15vs15.
I think this would drastically help with latency/response issues with the servers and make a cleaner game.
2) LOVE the "NPC" spawn idea that is brilliant and helps "fill out" the map as well as creates some "balance" in the teams with NPCs able to assist in taking back Depots...
3) The time investment is pretty big... Would really like to see the Base HP dropped to 3k and rather than 10 supplies to the coffer = 2k more HP, it would be cut there down to 1k. So it would be a 3k start with a 4k Max HP rather than 4k start and 6k MAX.
4) The Golum NPCs could use an HP and damage boost. They are VERY easily to solo right now... Should probably require atleast 2 people to take 1 down. Also maybe some consistency with the #of coins dropped... Should be 2 per golumn potentially.... Would basically guarantee the game is near finish by the time the Dragon attacks (18 min mark in the game) making them ~20 minute games on average I think.
On the plus side, dom now seems like a refreshing walk in the park.
It would have been hilarious to have the same mechanic in SHpvp.
I can hear the complaints already if you had to start a lane push from your end in order to stop an assault from the catapults (and they already keep firing until they run out of ammo, you just can't add more ammo) because a strong team can just send most of their team to protect the catapults and if you can't compete gearwise/skillwise whatever then you lose. This way you have a chance to be sneaky and possibly interrupt the other team. Lots of communication is required on both sides.
We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
I'm not saying the queue is perfect, but we queue at the same time and 99% of the time it works.
On the topic of 4k players - that wasn't even mentioned? I'm not 4k, most of the people from my guild that jump into Siege are not - not all of them are pvpers either (Anyone who knows me knows I certainly am not). We still work together to hold supply depots, build catapults, etc. As with all group content in this game, it's about communication.
3K IL WK Sabo TR
Trying to suck less @ pvp near you