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Control vs tenacity and elven. SUggestion for valindra set.
mamalion1234
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,415 Arc User
Cryptic gone so far with the lostmauth set and gave to critical builds the set to deal the 30% damage of their damage.
I am control wizard and i want play the class as i want in pvp and i cant. I want to control.
NEW sets with more tenacity and trans elven battle make control totally useless.( even now with lesser tenacity+ elven the control last 0.5 sec). SO the control resist is so high my suggestion is to buff the valindra set to counter this resistance.
GIVE to valindra set control bonus 120% and let same the control resist at 10%.
AFfects pve? yes it is make content more easy but wizards cant play their role in pvp.
COntrol on control wizard is privilege.
I am control wizard and i want play the class as i want in pvp and i cant. I want to control.
NEW sets with more tenacity and trans elven battle make control totally useless.( even now with lesser tenacity+ elven the control last 0.5 sec). SO the control resist is so high my suggestion is to buff the valindra set to counter this resistance.
GIVE to valindra set control bonus 120% and let same the control resist at 10%.
AFfects pve? yes it is make content more easy but wizards cant play their role in pvp.
COntrol on control wizard is privilege.
![[URL=auplod.com/i-ldoupaa9270.html][IMG]http://www.auplod.com/t/ldoupaa9270.png[/IMG][/URL]]([URL=http://www.auplod.com/i-ldoupaa9270.html][IMG]http://www.auplod.com/t/ldoupaa9270.png[/IMG][/URL]){kind=link}
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Comments
1. Do you know how much effort it takes to bring up control bonus over 60~70% in PvP?
2. Do you know how that 60~70% actually does to people without TEB in PvP?
3. Do you know what a control bonus of over 100% does to controllable mobs in PvE?
Control is something you invest and actively build for, just like how people invest in DEX for more crit, STR for more damage, CON for more HP. I've said this a thousand times, I'm sick and tired of clueless CWs ranting that CW has no control.
Here are the cold facts: the CW you play has no control, because you don't bloody invest even a single point into control. CWs think getting the store-bought Valyndra's set and slapping on that freebie +15% is supposed to mean something. It means something when you have a strong base build that is meant to accommodate for controls.
A CW that has not built itself for control basically has no foundation for that extra +15% to mean something. It's basically the same thing as the LostM set having meaningful bonuses to damage for those that have built itself for high-crit chance. (The problem being classes like the TR receive its benefits way too easily, but this is subject for another discussion)
Yes, I'm the one who first brought up TEB is overboard and basically completely destroys the CC mechanics, but trust me, giving free control bonus that is +120%?? This is madness. Insanity. When you throw around +120% control bonus into the set, its going to be a nightmare.
CW controls are fine. TEB is overboard and might need a fix, but this isn't the way to do it.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
And additionally to what kweassa remarked, I personally hate wizards whinning cause they dont have control, but stacked everything in charisma and intelligence.
More control:
Points on wisdom
Oppresor path
Features + skill rotations
Valindra set
Wisp companion
grumpy wizard companion 25% control bonus
U have to sacrifice damage if u want more control, period.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You're also basically telling people to drop $18 on a respec+re-roll to make their character better in PvP against some players and bad at PvE.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/563425/pvp-yes-oppressor-works
I've properly debunked that the "Control Wizard is the weakest in control, despite its title" more than 2 months ago. Since then, it has become somewhat a trend of any premade-level PvP player I meet in combat sending hate-PMs to me. Considering how those people are usually cocky and don't really bother to interact with a nameless pug -- much less send out hate/ridicule/complaint PMs first -- that says a lot.
It bothers them, because I can do things to them that allows even pug level players to KO their +4k IL HAMSTER. Usually these people would take on 4~5 pugs and still chug through, or methodically kill all of them one by one. When I'm around, just one DPS class with me and they're dead.
I didn't get that ability for free. I've geared my whole character to that one concept, and made due sacrifices to achieve it, so I'm not really ashamed when I perma-control someone to death. Unlike Trappers, I didn't get that ability through just one class feature and a couple of broken feats.
This means, if someone doesn't like that happening to him, and they make about as much sacrifices as I did in coming up with a build geared towards CC-resistance, then that guy can effectively render me useless, and rightfully so.
Using Valyndra's set doesn't give you this much control power. You put your stat points, artifact equipment bonuses, your 3 artifacts, class features, class feature augments, and feat choices, all of them for control and control only. So if some other guy, who is out to get me, makes the same amount of sacrifices to come up with a counter-character stocked ful lof control resistance bonuses, then it is only fitting he should defeat me easily.
This is where TEB becomes the problem. TEB just freely gives out that ability to everyone, without even a single point of stat sacrificed. People don't need to make any kind of effort. Just buy the free "pseudo-ITC" from the market and slap it on and voila! No need to worry about CCs anymore.
So two, essential facts:
(1) CW controls are fine under normal circumstances
(2) Most CW players don't really build for control, so their controls suck even under normal conditions
(3) TEB isn't normal. It's abnormally powerful and overboard
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
1. It takes 1,000 ZEN 10 US bucks to charge-up. A single respec costs 300Z = $3. Don't need the class reroll.
2. So you think CWs should be getting my level of control and still do the DPS they do currently?
3. Who says Controllers are bad in PvE?
I won't say controller builds are better than the typical DPS builds in PvE, but only because the instanced dungeon contents always include uncontrollable bosses and/or mini-bosses. Every thing else than those two cases, controller builds do fine... doing stuff like keeping 3 rival adventurers cornered and permacontrolled while the rest 4 members of your team focus down the other 2 in ECC.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
On another note, teb is the only reason I actually PvP, some classes need it, some don't.
Can you explain to us why a CW should invest items and bonus in control when the others class don't need a single boost to apply their controls daze prone etc etc . . .?
How the hell the CONTROL wizard should be the only class who need to boost her controls to be effective considering every class have controls ability.
This is an absurd statement especially with the TEB problem now on the table.
The CONTROL wizard should be the only class who doesn't need control boost to have effective control when the others class should invest in that to have an equal or a good return for control but it means less dps or less defense.
The control wizard is already facing a lot of immunes/stealth/shields and Control resiist due to the meachnic of the others classs-race.
The TEB need atleast a complete rework but in my opinion it should be wiped from the game.
Aside from a very rare exception which is the Scoundrel TR and the Trapper HR, all classes have to equally invest in their own CCs or otherwise its use is limited. If anything in terms of individual effect of CCs, the CW with a 66% penetration value against CCr from Tenacitty, actually still has the highest efficiency of all classes in terms of CC.
The reason why it feels like the "Control" Wizards aren't all that special in terms of CCs, is because most CW players themselves view CCs in the same way as other classes -- as a mere set-up tool for their DPS oriented builds, rather than CCs being the mission statement of the class itself.
So a CW doesn't NEED to invest items and bonuses in control if it doesn't want to control. The resulting weakness in terms of control (as compared to some classes like the Trapper HR) is a result of your own choice, not because of some unjust discrimination.
In other, simpler words, the majority of CWs in PvP CCs about as well as any non-CC heavy class (GWF.. GF.. DC.. you name it) -- not more, not less, because the CW players themselves build their own character to be that way.
Nobody forced them to limit their own CC potential to the bare minimum and make a build concept that mirror other DPS classes. Nobody forced them to envision their CW as a mega-DPS with some limited CC aspects. It's all their own doing. And yet, for some reason, they compare their own control ability to a class benefiting from a broken mechanic, and then complaining it doesn't do enough CC.
That's what's going down here.
Another biased misconception. Just which class are we talking about here? Are we talking about:
(a) the GF or the GWF which has maybe one or two stuns that's nerfed to be only a stun in PvP?
(b) the DC that has a few minor stuns and a bugged AoE-placement knockup?
(c) the Paly that has a periodical, minor AoE stun that is annoying?
(d) the SW, which has ONE really strong stun?
(e) the TR, which has the choice of using one good singletarget daze or AoE daze
(f) the HR, which has a broken imbalanced mechanic that microstuns(root+daze=stun) non-stop?
Just which class is the CW supposed to be weaker in CCs? And why is that?
Is it because there's some conspiracy against the CWs? Or is it because most CWs only use 1x EF(hold), 1x RoF(freeze), 1x IceKnife(prone), and then fill up the rest 5 power slots with just DPS stuff?
1. The control wizard is already like that, by way of simply having absolutely more number of CC powers available. Use more control powers on the slot and that's usually it.
2. As stated above, other classes are also like that. You wanna see what a GWF that's slotted with 2~3 control powers does for damage? Or how about a TR that leaves out ITC and SS and then fills both slots with more control powers? Oh sure, they can CC much better if they do that. But you wanna know what their DPS is like?
3. You don't know just how high the CW can get with controls, because I can dare claim you've never even tried, or seen, what it can do. When a CW goes for control, it goes all the way, and then the control itself becomes a quality of its own. Like the name "Control Wizard" implies, the CW has what it takes to become that, and no other class even comes close, except the Trapper with a bullchit mechanic, which, people already demand a fix to.
But of course, people still want to do stuff like knock off 60~70% HP with a single Ice Knife and that chit, and still want to be able to control like I do on top of all that, without even so much as putting a single power point or stat point into control-related feature.
The only response I can think of, is as said before, "preposterous".
It certainly needs at least a rework. TEB is essentially the opposite extreme, a mirror-image of the Trapper HR. The Trappers are the one and only class that really falls under your criticism, a class that gains its near-perma microstunning frenzy without deep investments into the character to make it possible. A single class feature, and then what is laid out with the feats in the Trapper path, and that just gives you a free supercontroller.
TEB is the same. You don't need to build for CCr and protection. You just have whatever build you like, and then place a store-bought, single enchantment gem on your chest and voila! You are perma-ITC.
So yes, it needs a rework at the least. But that doesn't mean your conception surrounding CWs and control is right.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
(a) the GF or the GWF which has maybe one or two stuns that's nerfed to be only a stun in PvP?
(b) the DC that has a few minor stuns and a bugged AoE-placement knockup?
(c) the Paly that has a periodical, minor AoE stun that is annoying?
(d) the SW, which has ONE really strong stun?
(e) the TR, which has the choice of using one good singletarget daze or AoE daze
(f) the HR, which has a broken imbalanced mechanic that microstuns(root+daze=stun) non-stop?
Just which class is the CW supposed to be weaker in CCs? And why is that?
Is it because there's some conspiracy against the CWs? Or is it because most CWs only use 1x EF(hold), 1x RoF(freeze), 1x IceKnife(prone), and then fill up the rest 5 power slots with just DPS stuff?
1. The control wizard is already like that, by way of simply having absolutely more number of CC powers available. Use more control powers on the slot and that's usually it.
2. As stated above, other classes are also like that. You wanna see what a GWF that's slotted with 2~3 control powers does for damage? Or how about a TR that leaves out ITC and SS and then fills both slots with more control powers? Oh sure, they can CC much better if they do that. But you wanna know what their DPS is like?
3. You don't know just how high the CW can get with controls, because I can dare claim you've never even tried, or seen, what it can do. When a CW goes for control, it goes all the way, and then the control itself becomes a quality of its own. Like the name "Control Wizard" implies, the CW has what it takes to become that, and no other class even comes close, except the Trapper with a bullchit mechanic, which, people already demand a fix to.
But of course, people still want to do stuff like knock off 60~70% HP with a single Ice Knife and that chit, and still want to be able to control like I do on top of all that, without even so much as putting a single power point or stat point into control-related feature.
The only response I can think of, is as said before, "preposterous".
It certainly needs at least a rework. TEB is essentially the opposite extreme, a mirror-image of the Trapper HR. The Trappers are the one and only class that really falls under your criticism, a class that gains its near-perma microstunning frenzy without deep investments into the character to make it possible. A single class feature, and then what is laid out with the feats in the Trapper path, and that just gives you a free supercontroller.
TEB is the same. You don't need to build for CCr and protection. You just have whatever build you like, and then place a store-bought, single enchantment gem on your chest and voila! You are perma-ITC.
So yes, it needs a rework at the least. But that doesn't mean your conception surrounding CWs and control is right.
As I see it, the CW lacks survivability. We also lack either control or damage depending on build. Its very very hard to get both. If we lack control we have a hard time using our potential high damage because nothing stands still for ice knife and we always have to jump around and dodge. And with the new meta, its also really hard to kill anything with equal gear. And with the new meta, we need to stand more often on a node and that pretty much makes us a lame duck.
And even if a CW went for control, pretty much all classes has great tools to combat our control. So in the end, the problem is that all classes has too good tools against control so it makes control useless and that's why most CW goes for damage. Then add Elven battle on that. While the CW cant really combat anything because its weak overall. Sure we have some dodges and repel and we have some 0.1 sec stuns here and there but that's a losing battle most of the times.
The CW needs more base control stats built in from scratch and we also need more survivability (and a shield nerf with that) so that we don't have to waste our best control/damage slot for survivability.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
How's it any different for any DPS build when all classes have some sort of method to evade or mitigate incoming damage? That's what makes PvP, isn't it? Trying to break the enemy defense and landing your own attacks, while discouraging the other guy from doing the same. Same with controller builds.
Surely, you didn't think just landing one CC would automatically win you the fight, or something?
Sorry. The "History of the CWs" tells a different story. Before the ICD on freeze-chill repetition, tenacity, and the nerfing of the SoEA damage, essentially every CW had a DPS/Oppressor build, because they had both humongous amounts of damage as well as easy cycling control that was fairly difficult to break out of -- even when the CW built for damage. The CCs were short, but were easily and quickly chained in succession with a proning, strong-damage attack mixed in between (SoEA is still one of the game's longest proning power up to date).
Every class had those tools since the beginning of the game, and the CW had no problems dealing with it. Only after the ICD to chill stacks, nerf to SoEA and the implementation of tenacity, it became clear that controlling people non-stop like they used to do took effort. At the same time, the devs also gave out the overpowered-as-heck Stormspell procs in compensation.
So after that, the CWs gained mega-loads of damage which was enough to just out-right kill someone without relying on frequent CCs. It was easier to build for damage than to build for control, since the former gave you gratification through kills, while the latter made you a dedicate team-support role.
Controls aren't useless because the defensive mechanics of each of the classes were too strong. It became useless because the CWs didn't need controls any more. Unless it was a very tough and resilient GF or GWF (which requires the use of Ice Knife in between the combos to take down), against most classes a first-hit single rotation with multi-SS proccing would just "delete" your HP bar within a blink of an eye.
It wasn't until the new remodelling of the DCs, and the subsequent emergence of the Trappers, and Paladins that you couldn't kill even with the CWs damage, that "control" became the issue again.
You haven't seen what controller builds can do. I have. I'm the one who started the whole 'modern Oppressors' bit around 2~3 months ago.
A controller build Oppressor CW at the height of its CC rotations does chit that makes a Trapper HR look like a joke. Anything without TEB on it I can basically lock it down as long as I want.
I may not be able to become the top-level striker some CWs are with 20~30 kills per match, but you can well be darn sure that I can neutralize any Paladin or DC or GF with the help of maybe one good DPS player, which a team of 4~5 people with a conventional DPS CW mixed in may not be able to -- all that heals or shields or chit don't mean squat when they can't use it.
The only reason I'm against TEB is because with the addition of that one enchant to a single slot just makes null and void all the sacrifices and effort put into making a theory/concept really work in the field. As I've said before, if someone makes a heavy CCr build, to specifically counter my heavy-CC build, and as a result my CCs go useless, then I've got no problems with it whatsoever. TEB isn't about selection and focus as my build is -- it's just about a load of freebie bonuses without any consequence or sacrifices made to obtain such power.
And this basically goes the same for every other CW players as well. Don't be complaining that you don't have any CC, since I know that you don't even make real use of all the CCs you have in your disposal, much less make any dedication or committment to change the whole build for it.
I'm sure a lot of DPS CWs take a great deal of care in coming up with the perfect DPS builds that can proc 30k SS ticks and hit 90k with an Ice Knife. Everything, from mix/maxing the stats for crit and power, to getting the correct artifacts and bonus items to help out with it.
Why you think building for controls is any different, and it should just be given to you freely, is beyond me.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
How's it any different for any DPS build when all classes have some sort of method to evade or mitigate incoming damage? That's what makes PvP, isn't it? Trying to break the enemy defense and landing your own attacks, while discouraging the other guy from doing the same. Same with controller builds.
Surely, you didn't think just landing one CC would automatically win you the fight, or something?
Sorry. The "History of the CWs" tells a different story. Before the ICD on freeze-chill repetition, tenacity, and the nerfing of the SoEA damage, essentially every CW had a DPS/Oppressor build, because they had both humongous amounts of damage as well as easy cycling control that was fairly difficult to break out of -- even when the CW built for damage. The CCs were short, but were easily and quickly chained in succession with a proning, strong-damage attack mixed in between (SoEA is still one of the game's longest proning power up to date).
Every class had those tools since the beginning of the game, and the CW had no problems dealing with it. Only after the ICD to chill stacks, nerf to SoEA and the implementation of tenacity, it became clear that controlling people non-stop like they used to do took effort. At the same time, the devs also gave out the overpowered-as-heck Stormspell procs in compensation.
So after that, the CWs gained mega-loads of damage which was enough to just out-right kill someone without relying on frequent CCs. It was easier to build for damage than to build for control, since the former gave you gratification through kills, while the latter made you a dedicate team-support role.
Controls aren't useless because the defensive mechanics of each of the classes were too strong. It became useless because the CWs didn't need controls any more. Unless it was a very tough and resilient GF or GWF (which requires the use of Ice Knife in between the combos to take down), against most classes a first-hit single rotation with multi-SS proccing would just "delete" your HP bar within a blink of an eye.
It wasn't until the new remodelling of the DCs, and the subsequent emergence of the Trappers, and Paladins that you couldn't kill even with the CWs damage, that "control" became the issue again.
You haven't seen what controller builds can do. I have. I'm the one who started the whole 'modern Oppressors' bit around 2~3 months ago.
A controller build Oppressor CW at the height of its CC rotations does chit that makes a Trapper HR look like a joke. Anything without TEB on it I can basically lock it down as long as I want.
I may not be able to become the top-level striker some CWs are with 20~30 kills per match, but you can well be darn sure that I can neutralize any Paladin or DC or GF with the help of maybe one good DPS player, which a team of 4~5 people with a conventional DPS CW mixed in may not be able to -- all that heals or shields or chit don't mean squat when they can't use it.
The only reason I'm against TEB is because with the addition of that one enchant to a single slot just makes null and void all the sacrifices and effort put into making a theory/concept really work in the field. As I've said before, if someone makes a heavy CCr build, to specifically counter my heavy-CC build, and as a result my CCs go useless, then I've got no problems with it whatsoever. TEB isn't about selection and focus as my build is -- it's just about a load of freebie bonuses without any consequence or sacrifices made to obtain such power.
And this basically goes the same for every other CW players as well. Don't be complaining that you don't have any CC, since I know that you don't even make real use of all the CCs you have in your disposal, much less make any dedication or committment to change the whole build for it.
I'm sure a lot of DPS CWs take a great deal of care in coming up with the perfect DPS builds that can proc 30k SS ticks and hit 90k with an Ice Knife. Everything, from mix/maxing the stats for crit and power, to getting the correct artifacts and bonus items to help out with it.
Why you think building for controls is any different, and it should just be given to you freely, is beyond me.
Make a video when you beat a BiS GWF/GF/TR/HR on a node without a babysitter DC/OP with your control build. And not something from GG when you fight pugs, a premade domination.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
It's like discussing something about boxing, theories and tactic, and then in a heated argument someone just blurts out, "Oh yeah? Then go beat Mayweather and prove it." How old are you? Seven?
I'm not at the BiS gear level myself, and yet I have to go beat a BiS level assortment of game's strongest dueling classes to prove my point that CC can be elevated to levels much higher than you might have assumed?
I'd have built the same cookie-cutter DPS CW if I wanted to win duels. I built for CCs to stop DCs or OPs without TEB from doing anything while the rest of my team's DPS take down other enemies that get no heal, buff, or general support. So if you want to see how it works, then look me up and ask for a first-hand experience which I can demonstrate in a cordial and friendly manner, and keep you as a nice, frozen popsicle for maybe 90% of the time, instead of throwing around some random "victory conditions" in a duel against whales you think I cannot win.
...
(ps) And just FYI, the only reason I can't win duels in a 1v1, is because I kill myself through the game's chit-procs like Avalanche despite the fact my opponent's can rarely even raise a finger against me.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
I can do it so long as the other guy doesn't have TEB, and the guy with me is competent enough as a DPS. I've brought down around 3.8k ~ 4.2k Palys with just two people including myself, and I'm only 2.9k IL.
I'd say the key to all this is the one, simple fact, that elements such as damage or defense are all directly effected by IL. However, CC duration is unaffected by IL. A 3 sec CC cast on a target will last 3 seconds whether it is at 400 IL or a 4k IL.
Theoretically, this means that when you have 3~4 pugs against 1 really powerful BiS guy, which, in normal cases that single BiS guy can annihiliate the entire 3~4 people easily, when you put one Controller-build CW into that mix it will turn the tables around and allow the 3~4 pugs to just slaughter that BiS guy where he stands... and this is no longer just a theory. Happens quite often when I walk into GG... (which is probably why this trend of me getting hate PMs from 3.5~4.5k IL players has started... much to my enjoyment...)
...
Another major factor would be nobody really consciously builds for CC resist, since most consider 2 seconds of being controlled every 10~15 seconds as an acceptable risk they can either more or less ignore.
For example, in almost every case I've seen, competent melee players fear the CWs because they are continuously being repelled backwards, and the damage they receive during that continuous push-back may overwhelm them. They don't really seem to be bothered by a short hold for a couple of seconds at most. They fear the damage, not the CCs.
I don't expect the CC-centric methods to make an immediate impact in the higher level of playing field, since the very meta of how the game's played is already set with the definition in mind that the CW is a moving artillery piece, not a CC-support. However, I'm willing to bet once a CC-centric build is adequately supported by sufficient team play centered around it, it can pretty much do just as well -- if not better -- than a meta centered on DPS nuking -- ESPECIALLY when the presence of DCs and OPs nowadays have become powerful enough to negate and deny that nuke-meta to uselessness.
Only time will tell, methinks.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Nice for all with tr here.
Here is simple thing ....
Valindra Set + Orb of İmpositon (class feature) + Cantenkerous Mage (Acvite bonus companion)
Ez to control ppl. Also you can add Will-o-Wishp for more control... Even paladins will have difficutly aganist you
Ty cryptic for making active companion bonuses. Now things are much better