Working Together to Improve PvP

sudnd3th · August 2015

Ok, since we need a way to condense our information on what's wrong with PvP into one spot. Was hoping to get the PvP community as a whole. Working together on listing stuff. Now we need to have valid discussion and reason for listing it. Then hopefully Arc will see this and start to work on it.

We need to get rid of these Cry's to NERF Class A or B cause it's OP with not much substance. We need way's to make things better for all classes as a whole. If things get balanced out Right instead of huge nerf's or buff's to classes to throw things way out of balance one way or another. Only thing we'll have to worry about down the road is new additions to the game making it easier for Arc to fix as a whole.

Problems With PvP

Shadow of Demise & Plaguefire working in unintended ways to to cause 100% Piercing Damage.
HR's Root's work even when dodged.
Constant Daze/Stun Chains that make a target useless for to long of periods.

Problems That Need Insight (Looking for input on What we Can do)

Overal Class Power of TR.
SW needs help to make it more Viable in PvP

Ways to Improve PvP

Better Matchmaking - A way to setup matches so they are more even from the start based on GS/Leaderboards/Class/Tenacity ect.
Kills awarded to person who does most damage to target not last hit. Gets rid of kill steals. Will make people care less about the kill and more about helping the team.
Match points for healing based on a certain amount. Some match's a single cleric could be the saving grace for your team. Make it worth while to keep your team alive.
More rewards for PvP, make the people that don't normally PvP feel like its worth their time to do it and put an effort in other than a Daily Challenge that makes them enter get it done then leave not caring about how they do. (Thought PvP was sort of an Endgame for people)
Class Limit for Premades - No more teams of 4 or 5 same class. In Domination Max of 2 (5v5) I could see Max of 3 in (10v10) Make it reasonable based on the game type. (Running too many of one class just means your taking advantage of Broken mechanics)

ceemaus2020 · August 2015

I find that if you look at leaderboards you will have all the insight you need on which class needs to be nerfed... hell the first 60 pages are riddled with Trs the first page is 90% trs um yet you plan on nerfing storm spell for what?

sudnd3th · August 2015

You cant just say nerf without a way to make it say what needs to be adjusted.

skeld11 · August 2015

ferretcough wrote: »

this games pvp will never take skill, because of

1. cooldowns on encounters.

2. no stunbreaks other than relying on an oghmas token which takes 60 seconds to proc.

3. class unbalances.

Clearly the same people keep rising to the top, but I would agree with you as far as the skill is more related to building your character and having a lot of time/money on your hands to maximize your gear. Also, the ability to network and get a good guild or team going. Not everyone can do those things so perhaps those things are the "skill".

ladyevayne · August 2015

Haven't played in a while, but i'm sure the Rivenscar spawn is still bugged. When you re-spawn on the (1) side, you do so just outside of the camp fire range and have to move closer to get the buff. The (3) side is just fine, spawn and go. On side (1) you have to run back a bit. It's minor, but clear advantage for side 3. If you don't know to run back and get the buff, you fight without the +1 to all stats.

crispyslinky07 · August 2015

ceemaus2020 wrote: »

I find that if you look at leaderboards you will have all the insight you need on which class needs to be nerfed... hell the first 60 pages are riddled with Trs the first page is 90% trs um yet you plan on nerfing storm spell for what?

crispyslinky07 · August 2015

Ok I'll say this one more time only bc I'm tired of how dumb people are.... TRs are top of the leaderboards (mostly) bc of how the lb is set up... it caters to them bc it's a tr role in pvp to kill. A cleric and a Tr that are on the same page would mean the tr could be 100-100 but the dc has to be 180-20 to make up for defense points that a Tr gets. Yes trs need a little work but using the leaderboards as an example of that really just shows your lack of knowledge/experience

skeld11 · August 2015

crispyslinky07 wrote: »

Ok I'll say this one more time only bc I'm tired of how dumb people are.... TRs are top of the leaderboards (mostly) bc of how the lb is set up... it caters to them bc it's a tr role in pvp to kill. A cleric and a Tr that are on the same page would mean the tr could be 100-100 but the dc has to be 180-20 to make up for defense points that a Tr gets. Yes trs need a little work but using the leaderboards as an example of that really just shows your lack of knowledge/experience

Where is the formula that determines your leaderboard position?

crispyslinky07 · August 2015

Where is the formula that determines your leaderboard position?[/quote]

I am not sure but I have figured out what helps your rank and what doesnt.

If your in the top 3ish pages and win a game by a landslide you'll go down a spot or so. Your not doing yourself any favors by throwing another game on your stats with only 2 kills and 2 caps. I'm not sure if it affects the players who aren't in the top pages but that's what I've figured out with my own experiences.

Which also helps explain why dc and GF get shafted on the standings... Their role isn't to kill so even those players with a crazy win - lose record are beyond page 10.

Then again this is just what I've experienced, if I'm completely wrong please feel free to enlightened us!

skeld11 · August 2015

crispyslinky07 wrote: »

I am not sure but I have figured out what helps your rank and what doesnt.

If your in the top 3ish pages and win a game by a landslide you'll go down a spot or so. Your not doing yourself any favors by throwing another game on your stats with only 2 kills and 2 caps. I'm not sure if it affects the players who aren't in the top pages but that's what I've figured out with my own experiences.

Which also helps explain why dc and GF get shafted on the standings... Their role isn't to kill so even those players with a crazy win - lose record are beyond page 10.

Then again this is just what I've experienced, if I'm completely wrong please feel free to enlightened us!

I can't enlighten you because I haven't figured it out myself either. I just wasn't sure if you had found some information that no one else had.

I suspected it was almost completely related to the combined ELO rating of the enemy team vs. your team and whether you win or lose, rather than some sort of complicated formula involving kills, captures, points etc. Maybe not though.

TR's most likely feel like it's WAI.

crispyslinky07 · August 2015

What's wai?

sudnd3th · August 2015

part of me figures the board might work on average points per game, my cleric is up on page 30 tho, but most games i'm contesting a lot of points and getting tons of assists, i like to move around a lot if needed and keep the team distracted while my team takes care of the ones that dont let me cap points.

ferretcough wrote: »

this games pvp will never take skill, because of

1. cooldowns on encounters.

2. no stunbreaks other than relying on an oghmas token which takes 60 seconds to proc.

3. class unbalances.

As for no skill, I cant honestly believe that.

@1. So if no cooldowns on encounters, you can say button smashing takes skill? I honestly think you have to learn how to manage your encounters and learn how to play without each one you use so you know how to use them and when to use them.

@2. I agree there either should be a way that all classes get some form of CC immunity other than oghmas or a timer between Multiple CC effects so you can't just CC lock someone. Honestly If you say there is 2-3s immunity between Daze's would be the biggest help. Its enough so that you can still somewhat CC lock but it allows you to escape the next CC also. Would make team fights a lot more interesting if you have to actually control each member of the team vs CC lock and burst one of them down. I'm more thinking about a long the lines where each CC type has its only category and can't be used back to back on the same person. Roots/Freeze, Daze/Stun/Prones, Knockbacks.

@3. Yes there is a lot of it and it needs to be worked on. But you have to remember this is a tvt pvp setup. A well coordinated group of ppl will always beat 5 players playing individually as a group.

But as for TR being way OP (They are OP but you can beat them with a little more finesse), I can't honestly say they are, I've won against teams of 4 TR's and one CW or Cleric and they weren't badly geared. I know they had 1 Scound, 1 Sab, and if i remember correctly 2 Exec running PF which really annoys me as a TR. I ran it to start with but then got rid of mine when i was running a Exec build. Its cheap and a bug that shouldn't be used. Really turns things into easy mode and takes the fun out of it for everyone. I just can't Remember if i was running my Perma WK build on my TR at the time or if I was on my DC. Either or we would have been running 1 MI Perma TR, 1 SW, 1 DC, 1 HR, and me on my TR WK Perma or DC

sudnd3th · August 2015

Well another big thing about PvP if you get Pugs on your team cause your not running with a full team and end up getting guys that have no tenacity or low GS really ruin the likely hood of a good match. I honestly think match making should look at GS and Tenacity and group the ones that don't like to pvp or new to pvp and actually just doing it for the daily or whatever together. At least that way the new guys dont get discouraged from pvp

skeld11 · August 2015

crispyslinky07 wrote: »

What's wai?

Working as Intended

sudnd3th · August 2015

Played ESO and it wasn't as much skill dependant as I would have liked. Pvp was very slow paced and it's still gear dependant. And there is still one class that is > than all

Honestly I've found one game that was never gear dependant in my life. That was The Chronicles of Spellborn. Gear was only for looks. No stats on weapons or armor. It was fps style targeting in 3rd person with no lock on of skills at all so if u didn't anticipate where your target was going to be then you would miss. I wish it hadn't crashed within the first few months of it being out but they failed on marketing it properly and it was buggy. The company ended up going bankrupt

somemint · August 2015

sudnd3th wrote: »

Honestly I've found one game that was never gear dependant in my life.

And that was Ultima Online (especially before Trammel introduction)

mercbenz360 · August 2015

From my state of pvp post:

- Remove stacking stun effects. Put in an immunity timer, make the stun duration 1/2 for every stun "improperly" poured on top of an existing stun. Assist trains on one target now take some skill.
- More maps and game mode variety.
- MATCHMAKING. Look at GS, Specs, Classes, Time Played, Glory earned, Tenacity, etc. I'm sure the devs would know best here, but come up with a formula to help weight teams. A solo and a team queue may also help.
- Duels - why not?
- Personally I think TR's need to be rethought. I love stealthers that can sneak in, execute, and are vulnerable on the way out. That's a ton of fun. A real counter to stealth (maybe a Hunter daily to see stealth or passive is see them in xfeet).
- SWs and GWF do need some love. SW's are glass cannons and I think a lot of the issues is just that class is going to take deaths, but they have almost no utility (with most specs). Personally I'd look into making temptation more viable for PvP as a support role. GWF need single target damage (that's coming).
- Kill awards based on damage done, not last hit.
- More flexible stat awards for healing/clerics. (Show heals in stats)
- More rewards for PvP. Random gold, random chance at some rough AD, etc.
- Fix the leaderboards or something.... I dunno, Leaderboard just spawn elitist behavior.

azuosed89 · August 2015

cant compare this game to ESO. IMO, ESO pvp is terrible. it is a big zerg, period. Also it is not balanced, it only has no problems because it is open world zerg. the day they add arenas they will suffer a long time to balance the classes. period.
The most balanced pvp I played is GW2. NW has an awesome combat system, but sadly they take so long to balance classes on pvp that people simply get dismotivated. The p2w gap between non p2w and p2w players is huge also. Maybe learn with skyforge?

azuosed89 · August 2015

sudnd3th wrote: »

Played ESO and it wasn't as much skill dependant as I would have liked. Pvp was very slow paced and it's still gear dependant. And there is still one class that is > than all

Honestly I've found one game that was never gear dependant in my life. That was The Chronicles of Spellborn. Gear was only for looks. No stats on weapons or armor. It was fps style targeting in 3rd person with no lock on of skills at all so if u didn't anticipate where your target was going to be then you would miss. I wish it hadn't crashed within the first few months of it being out but they failed on marketing it properly and it was buggy. The company ended up going bankrupt

try skyforge, seems pretty balanced and skill based, huge build variety, and very limited p2w.

sudnd3th · August 2015

again

somemint wrote: »

And that was Ultima Online (especially before Trammel introduction)

I forgot about UO, yeah i really don't relate to that since I've never played it, was a little before the time I got into MMO's,

mercbenz360 wrote: »

From my state of pvp post:

- Remove stacking stun effects. Put in an immunity timer, make the stun duration 1/2 for every stun "improperly" poured on top of an existing stun. Assist trains on one target now take some skill.
- More maps and game mode variety.
- MATCHMAKING. Look at GS, Specs, Classes, Time Played, Glory earned, Tenacity, etc. I'm sure the devs would know best here, but come up with a formula to help weight teams. A solo and a team queue may also help.
- Duels - why not?
- Personally I think TR's need to be rethought. I love stealthers that can sneak in, execute, and are vulnerable on the way out. That's a ton of fun. A real counter to stealth (maybe a Hunter daily to see stealth or passive is see them in xfeet).
- SWs and GWF do need some love. SW's are glass cannons and I think a lot of the issues is just that class is going to take deaths, but they have almost no utility (with most specs). Personally I'd look into making temptation more viable for PvP as a support role. GWF need single target damage (that's coming).
- Kill awards based on damage done, not last hit.
- More flexible stat awards for healing/clerics. (Show heals in stats)
- More rewards for PvP. Random gold, random chance at some rough AD, etc.
- Fix the leaderboards or something.... I dunno, Leaderboard just spawn elitist behavior.

Added some to the list I have going. Hoping the Dev's/Mod's really see this stuff.

I hear you, Yeah stacking stuns really breaks pvp. IMO A lot of the classes really need to be reworked in general to bring balance to the game.

My views of classes and how they should be and work vs someone elses probably aren't the same.

TR- High Burst damage, easy to kill if caught (squishy), and sneaky.
CW- A more tanky mage with low damage that controls the fight with buffs and debuffs, stuns, binds, and dot's
DC- Mid tanky mage that heals and keeps teamates alive with cures and buffs.
GWF- Frontline sub tank decently tanky with fair amount of burst damage.
GF- Tank moderate damage and protects team members.
SW- Squishy High burst damage mage.
HR- squishy Mid to High damage ranged dps used to protect the mages

They all have their strengths and weaknesses. And they all have their roles to fill in a group and can strengthen a group in different ways.

evant56 · August 2015

I put this suggestion up on a different post but I'll put it here as we'll. lvl 60 pvp feels broken. I can have fun and be very competitive in all pvp matches from 10-50 but 60 is just straight one shots and no fun. When you said matchmaking based on gear score where you saying they should put certain gear scores together so a 10k isn't put up against a 20k? Also I'm a soul binder warlock and I know my potential for damage is high but I need to build soul sparks to actually have a lot of sustain and DPS but I can't do much damage In lvl 60 pvp because I can't build soul sparks cause of all the one shots. Warlock kicks <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in every pvp up to 60 then he becomes water boy for trickster rouges and control wizards. When I fight I feel like I'm throwing pebbles at everyone. They need a buff now!!!!!!

baronea · August 2015

Nice to see a post like this with the community providing constructive feedback--hopefully the development team will take note for future updates. Is there a community manager that responds in these forums from time to time? It would be great to hear feedback from someone that represents the development team.

I've spent quite a bit of time in the PvP arena (solo queue only), and I can say the experience can vary greatly from intensely fun and competitive matches to utterly frustrating complete annihilation. The difference? Matchmaking. Fix the matchmaking system, please.

Specifically, I don't feel premade teams have any business fighting PUG's. That will never be a fair match. I've run into some of the folks from the bigger PvP guilds and spoken with them after one of those 1000-27 score matches. Guess what? They don't like being seen as the bullies; they are just looking to play together against other teams of equivalent skill. Fix it so if a team wants to 5 queue, they can only play against another 5 queue. I understand that would take more time to find a match, but I honestly don't think letting premade teams queue up against 5 random players is any fun for anyone involved. If teams want to consistently play in a premade format, consider a schedule where teams can compete against each other.

Also, consider giving the "leaver penalty" to anyone camping by the fire for a prolonged period (giving up). All too often a game will start out great, but then you have that one person on your team that really doesn't care and doesn't like to die, so they give up and camp the fire for the next 10 minutes so they can collect that precious 4,000 rough AD they must be after. Give them an incentive to continue fighting until the end.

When a PvP match is reasonably balanced it is one of the most exciting experiences this game has to offer. I believe that tweaking the matchmaking system, along with deterring folks from camping the fire during a match, would go a long way towards improving the experience for everyone involved.

sudnd3th · August 2015

I hear you i don't enjoy stomping on teams when running premades, also don't enjoy running into a team of all 20k gs when running premades since most of us are around 15-17k gs, we get stomped. The match making tho does try to match premade 5v5's or 5v4 groups most of the time. But in all honesty when running 4 its a big hindrance to your team most times cause you get a pug that's usually under geared and most likely no tenacity so the match ends up being a 5v4 cause the 5th can't keep up with the rest and is useless.

Once and awhile if there are actually no 5 man premades running at the time then you'll get to play against a full pug or mostly pug team which just doesn't provide fun for anyone.

Reason I made this post was to hopefully get people working together and get an actual list going for dev's to see what we actually want and what would actually help improve the experience in general, I know we don't have a lot of options for maps right now and pvp content which will be coming shortly come all we are getting. It should help PvP quite a bit and get rid of the monotonous play for a little but they needs to be a lot more added down the road to keep things interesting. Maps would be nice to start with the areas we have.

buckysashiba · August 2015

My 2 cents, I've just recently started playing PVP, but if something isn't changed pretty soon, I will not be playing much more. Both my husband and I have 2 characters - he has a rogue and a cleric (lvl 60) and I have a ranger and a rogue (lvl 60). There needs to be a way to sort people in by gear score or something. I'm getting REALLY tired of the people that have spent $100's of dollars on the game grabbing my character just as soon as I jump off the respawn point. AND they camp out right below the respawn point! When you wind up on a team and lose 900 to 9, it's just not fun. And there are some very rude and offensive PVP players out there that after the kill they get on their horse and stomp on your head - not cool, that's just totally offensive and I will report them as such. I don't care if they are 13 and this is just a game, stomping on people with a horse is just plain rude. But something needs to be done to sort out the play or there will be no way to get more people into PVP and a lot of people will quit.

crispyslinky07 · August 2015

Bucky your post made me smile.. im not one to practice bad sportsmanship, but comeon! Your reaction is the exact reason those people do that. Don't let that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> get to you, it's part of the game and just remember... those people do that bc they are sooo excited they landed a kill and don't know how to control themselves. The good pvpers don't do that sh** because a kill comes easy to them, they don't have to act like it's their first time at the plate.

sudnd3th · August 2015

seeing these posts just made me remember the people taking 4 or 5 of one class into a match to take advantage of their broken mechanics just to win match.

buckysashiba · August 2015

ferret, well at least I have a picture of myself on my profile, and if you notice, I am not one of the "teeny-boppers" that play these MMO's. I happen to be a disabled Desert Storm Veteran that uses these video games as stress relief. PVP is a way to earn Astral Diamonds, which is a way to improve equipment WITHOUT having to spend my disability paycheck on ZEN like a lot of the PVPers that have all the legendary artifacts and hold you up in the air, etc., etc., etc. So, yeah if I expect a little respect out of my role-playing games it is because I am old school D&D, literally, when it was out of books, and maps, and peoples imaginations. I don't care how excited they are they landed a kill... You all are talking about trying to improve PVP, I have been in there when it is 900 to 9 - how is that right, and how is that going to get more people to play? Our team finally sat down on the campfire because the other team was camped out right below it. Jump off and die. Really? Oh and get stomped on.... Yeah it isn't real life, but show a little bit of class! Part of the entitlement generation - everyone gets a participation trophy.......................................................................

buckysashiba · August 2015

makes you kinda weird.... but if you get off on humping people with a pig, well, maybe you need to see a shrink

mercbenz360 · August 2015

buckysashiba wrote: »

ferret, well at least I have a picture of myself on my profile, and if you notice, I am not one of the "teeny-boppers" that play these MMO's. I happen to be a disabled Desert Storm Veteran that uses these video games as stress relief. PVP is a way to earn Astral Diamonds, which is a way to improve equipment WITHOUT having to spend my disability paycheck on ZEN like a lot of the PVPers that have all the legendary artifacts and hold you up in the air, etc., etc., etc. So, yeah if I expect a little respect out of my role-playing games it is because I am old school D&D, literally, when it was out of books, and maps, and peoples imaginations. I don't care how excited they are they landed a kill... You all are talking about trying to improve PVP, I have been in there when it is 900 to 9 - how is that right, and how is that going to get more people to play? Our team finally sat down on the campfire because the other team was camped out right below it. Jump off and die. Really? Oh and get stomped on.... Yeah it isn't real life, but show a little bit of class! Part of the entitlement generation - everyone gets a participation trophy.......................................................................

I fell into the trash talk behavior today, I think it's contagious with this game and community and similar to you I'm an "older" gamer that should know better. When you see people demean others because they haven't paid 2 win, run with an odd group for fun and don't sit around for the perfect 5 class composition, etc. etc. it just gets old and tiring. For many this is their life, so don't get too wrapped up in the all the trash (I surely feel stupid I did but it's been weeks of frustration). Queue up and have your laptop nearby incase you need to hug the campfire to get your AD. Lack of matchmaking and the developer refusing to fix class balance for months is the problem. Many posters have begged for fixes, even providing good options, but wait until Sept. (and no details on what that will exactly mean) make me feel they don't care about PvP. It's hard to blame them, look at the leaderboards, there's less than 40k players and how many are alts? 2.1m PvEs vs. 40k PvPers.

skeld11 · August 2015

mercbenz360 wrote: »

buckysashiba wrote: »

ferret, well at least I have a picture of myself on my profile, and if you notice, I am not one of the "teeny-boppers" that play these MMO's. I happen to be a disabled Desert Storm Veteran that uses these video games as stress relief. PVP is a way to earn Astral Diamonds, which is a way to improve equipment WITHOUT having to spend my disability paycheck on ZEN like a lot of the PVPers that have all the legendary artifacts and hold you up in the air, etc., etc., etc. So, yeah if I expect a little respect out of my role-playing games it is because I am old school D&D, literally, when it was out of books, and maps, and peoples imaginations. I don't care how excited they are they landed a kill... You all are talking about trying to improve PVP, I have been in there when it is 900 to 9 - how is that right, and how is that going to get more people to play? Our team finally sat down on the campfire because the other team was camped out right below it. Jump off and die. Really? Oh and get stomped on.... Yeah it isn't real life, but show a little bit of class! Part of the entitlement generation - everyone gets a participation trophy.......................................................................

I fell into the trash talk behavior today, I think it's contagious with this game and community and similar to you I'm an "older" gamer that should know better. When you see people demean others because they haven't paid 2 win, run with an odd group for fun and don't sit around for the perfect 5 class composition, etc. etc. it just gets old and tiring. For many this is their life, so don't get too wrapped up in the all the trash (I surely feel stupid I did but it's been weeks of frustration). Queue up and have your laptop nearby incase you need to hug the campfire to get your AD. Lack of matchmaking and the developer refusing to fix class balance for months is the problem. Many posters have begged for fixes, even providing good options, but wait until Sept. (and no details on what that will exactly mean) make me feel they don't care about PvP. It's hard to blame them, look at the leaderboards, there's less than 40k players and how many are alts? 2.1m PvEs vs. 40k PvPers.

We know they had 2.1m people try the game, but we don't know if they ever made it to 60. So the leaderboards are a piece of a smaller piece of the population. But I would be surprised if almost every level 60 hadn't tried PvP at least a little and therefore are on the leaderboard?

xrollxtidex · August 2015

buckysashiba wrote: »

ferret, well at least I have a picture of myself on my profile, and if you notice, I am not one of the "teeny-boppers" that play these MMO's. I happen to be a disabled Desert Storm Veteran that uses these video games as stress relief. PVP is a way to earn Astral Diamonds, which is a way to improve equipment WITHOUT having to spend my disability paycheck on ZEN like a lot of the PVPers that have all the legendary artifacts and hold you up in the air, etc., etc., etc. So, yeah if I expect a little respect out of my role-playing games it is because I am old school D&D, literally, when it was out of books, and maps, and peoples imaginations. I don't care how excited they are they landed a kill... You all are talking about trying to improve PVP, I have been in there when it is 900 to 9 - how is that right, and how is that going to get more people to play? Our team finally sat down on the campfire because the other team was camped out right below it. Jump off and die. Really? Oh and get stomped on.... Yeah it isn't real life, but show a little bit of class! Part of the entitlement generation - everyone gets a participation trophy.......................................................................

If the game is so one sided that your entire team is getting campfired, ask the opposing team for 1v1's. Most PvP players will respect the 1v1 and let yall duel. The good PvP players will. Sadly there are some kids that play that will not respect the 1v1 and the winning team can not always control their random teammates. If you ask me for a 1v1 and a random teammate jumps on you, I will be just as mad at him for doing so as you will be.

Working Together to Improve PvP

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