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There's just no other solution now. Seperate the queues
kweassa
Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
People have been asking this for years. People have tried openly pleading to guilds for fairness.
But we all know the truth, don't we?
Nothing works anymore. Guilds really don't give a sheet. Devs, none of what you try hard to let us have fun in this game works, when the playing ground isn't even. As much as I generall despise the "pug" mentality that drives people lazy and incompetent, without even the slightest effort put into the game, these "casual" players I can understand. Many of them are newbies. Many never learn past the point, or certain level in PvP, and many never get really better.
But the constant invasion of PvP guilds and their premade-trolling of open queues, it gets worse, and worse, and worse every day. For a very brief moment when GG was made open queues, people thought it could become a new casual playground for many players, and the "pros" had their own thing in Domination.
Nope. Doesn't work out that way. Countless times I explained. What the guild-premades say, are just bland set of excuses. They really don't give a sheet about how much it grieves others. Premades are made for one purpose -- and that is to win. Doesn't matter if its like a horde of elephants trampling through an anthill. They just don't care.
Everyone knows this. Don't try to kid yourself. Especially those of you active in PvP guilds, I know you are lying. You don't make PvP guilds to enjoy PvP. You make PvP guilds to enjoy winning. And no matter how stupidly one-sided game it is, you don't care as long as you win. And I know why you run away from Domination, and keep entering GG. Not all guilds are on the 'top level' so to speak. Even in Dom, even amongst the PvP guilds there is another "pecking order", and many of the guilds, unlike stomping pugs in GG, in Domination, the tables are turned and they're not so mighty anymore. You just don't like being on the receiving end, do you?
...
In the end, at this point, I don't think anyone gives a sheet anymore if the PvP queues extend to 10... 15... 20minutes. At least, anyone who plays alone, who doesn't like making premades, or who intentionally stays away from making premades for fairness, whatever band of people that would just casually enjoy pvp, or at least try to have a few minutes of fun while making 4k ADs through the daily quest, I guarantee you, we don't care anymore.
Anything's better than this. In all honesty I'd rather wait for 30 minutes to have one, good game, than being constantly pulled into a trollmade nightmare at which point the game ends in 3 minutes, and then spend the rest 12 minutes sitting at the campfire. But friends wanna have fun? Guilds want to have fun with team queues? Go do it at Domination, receive the EXACT SAME treatment you deal to others in GG, against superior guilds, and see how fun that is.
Let's ask ourselves this, Devs, if you're even listening at all.
How long do you think this can last? You've already experienced the fantastic failure of PvP in Champions Online. You've experienced how in similar manner it just dried out. How many cash-cows are going to be left to pump you money, when eventually your non-action kills PvP in the end? Do you think people will keep paying you to upgrade gear for competency, when the queues dry up and there just isn't any PvP anymore? How'd that work out for you in CO?
Or do you think that's never going to happen? How long did it take until CO, with so many fantastic traits to make such a fun game and such a fun PvP environment, eventually killed itself?
There's got to be something to keep the QOL up for not just the paying customers, but the lowest base of customers which in the end, eventually form a very important basis for PvP. Let's be realistic here. Even the PvPers with the best intentions, in the end, usually wade into a pool of "weaker fish" as they play the game. Not everybody becomes the "shark." But for the sharks to stay alive, they need a healthy environment where food is kept coming, where the smaller, weaker fish can still thrive.
What is happening, is the "weaker fish" is more and more calling it quits. They might suffer maybe 2~3 bad games out of 10, and if still they can have 7 games that were good and fun they'll tolerate it. But with EVERY game where they cannot even set one foot out of the spawn? When the pool dies, the sharks die out as well. When these sharks leave the game, say good-bye to your cash-cows.
Seperate the queues please. At least, try experimenting with it. You're onto mod7 now. It's a good excuse as any. Just friggin' [o]disallow team queues in GG for a month or so[/u]. See how the people like it. Try doing a poll within the game or something.
Even your confidence in the new Stronghold content won't matter one bit, since it only benefits the bigger guilds. We already know only a handful of people are going to get even more gear, even more boons, and just shake up the balance even more.
Then by God, at least keep them from using those amongst themselves, among their peers, in Domination. When it comes to GG, let the hand of randomness take care of everything. Want to walk in as a fully geared BiS character in GG? By all means, you are welcome -- just be prepared to meet any other, same geared individuals in the OPPONENT'S TEAM for a change, maybe they're from a rival guild, maybe they are from your own.
At this moment nothing is going to improve the QOL of that other, 90% of the PvP population who are victimized, over, and over, and over, and over again. Nothing except seperating the queues.
There's no other option left. It's THAT bad.
But we all know the truth, don't we?
Nothing works anymore. Guilds really don't give a sheet. Devs, none of what you try hard to let us have fun in this game works, when the playing ground isn't even. As much as I generall despise the "pug" mentality that drives people lazy and incompetent, without even the slightest effort put into the game, these "casual" players I can understand. Many of them are newbies. Many never learn past the point, or certain level in PvP, and many never get really better.
But the constant invasion of PvP guilds and their premade-trolling of open queues, it gets worse, and worse, and worse every day. For a very brief moment when GG was made open queues, people thought it could become a new casual playground for many players, and the "pros" had their own thing in Domination.
Nope. Doesn't work out that way. Countless times I explained. What the guild-premades say, are just bland set of excuses. They really don't give a sheet about how much it grieves others. Premades are made for one purpose -- and that is to win. Doesn't matter if its like a horde of elephants trampling through an anthill. They just don't care.
Everyone knows this. Don't try to kid yourself. Especially those of you active in PvP guilds, I know you are lying. You don't make PvP guilds to enjoy PvP. You make PvP guilds to enjoy winning. And no matter how stupidly one-sided game it is, you don't care as long as you win. And I know why you run away from Domination, and keep entering GG. Not all guilds are on the 'top level' so to speak. Even in Dom, even amongst the PvP guilds there is another "pecking order", and many of the guilds, unlike stomping pugs in GG, in Domination, the tables are turned and they're not so mighty anymore. You just don't like being on the receiving end, do you?
...
In the end, at this point, I don't think anyone gives a sheet anymore if the PvP queues extend to 10... 15... 20minutes. At least, anyone who plays alone, who doesn't like making premades, or who intentionally stays away from making premades for fairness, whatever band of people that would just casually enjoy pvp, or at least try to have a few minutes of fun while making 4k ADs through the daily quest, I guarantee you, we don't care anymore.
Anything's better than this. In all honesty I'd rather wait for 30 minutes to have one, good game, than being constantly pulled into a trollmade nightmare at which point the game ends in 3 minutes, and then spend the rest 12 minutes sitting at the campfire. But friends wanna have fun? Guilds want to have fun with team queues? Go do it at Domination, receive the EXACT SAME treatment you deal to others in GG, against superior guilds, and see how fun that is.
Let's ask ourselves this, Devs, if you're even listening at all.
How long do you think this can last? You've already experienced the fantastic failure of PvP in Champions Online. You've experienced how in similar manner it just dried out. How many cash-cows are going to be left to pump you money, when eventually your non-action kills PvP in the end? Do you think people will keep paying you to upgrade gear for competency, when the queues dry up and there just isn't any PvP anymore? How'd that work out for you in CO?
Or do you think that's never going to happen? How long did it take until CO, with so many fantastic traits to make such a fun game and such a fun PvP environment, eventually killed itself?
There's got to be something to keep the QOL up for not just the paying customers, but the lowest base of customers which in the end, eventually form a very important basis for PvP. Let's be realistic here. Even the PvPers with the best intentions, in the end, usually wade into a pool of "weaker fish" as they play the game. Not everybody becomes the "shark." But for the sharks to stay alive, they need a healthy environment where food is kept coming, where the smaller, weaker fish can still thrive.
What is happening, is the "weaker fish" is more and more calling it quits. They might suffer maybe 2~3 bad games out of 10, and if still they can have 7 games that were good and fun they'll tolerate it. But with EVERY game where they cannot even set one foot out of the spawn? When the pool dies, the sharks die out as well. When these sharks leave the game, say good-bye to your cash-cows.
Seperate the queues please. At least, try experimenting with it. You're onto mod7 now. It's a good excuse as any. Just friggin' [o]disallow team queues in GG for a month or so[/u]. See how the people like it. Try doing a poll within the game or something.
Even your confidence in the new Stronghold content won't matter one bit, since it only benefits the bigger guilds. We already know only a handful of people are going to get even more gear, even more boons, and just shake up the balance even more.
Then by God, at least keep them from using those amongst themselves, among their peers, in Domination. When it comes to GG, let the hand of randomness take care of everything. Want to walk in as a fully geared BiS character in GG? By all means, you are welcome -- just be prepared to meet any other, same geared individuals in the OPPONENT'S TEAM for a change, maybe they're from a rival guild, maybe they are from your own.
At this moment nothing is going to improve the QOL of that other, 90% of the PvP population who are victimized, over, and over, and over, and over again. Nothing except seperating the queues.
There's no other option left. It's THAT bad.
Stop making excuses. Be a man.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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Comments
We all know why the lower levels of the PvP guilds are trolling GG... because they can. They figured out a way to make things unbearable for pugs... and they keep doing it. So they can feel superior. Big fish in a little pond... vs. a big fish in an ocean full of sharks. They want to think that they are a PvP guild, but honestly they tend to just be bullies in game because they feel impotent IRL.
I was just called out in game... because CA has been known to enter GG with a premade. Yes we have, but due to a lack of players being on... we stopped that about 2 months ago. Also... we have lost more matches than we ever won when we enter as a premade group. We do not enter to win... we entered at the time because we all needed gear. We entered, as a casual guild... not a PvP guild. Everything we do... is out of desire to enjoy the game... not beat on people. Quite honestly... I lose more when I PvP with them... than I do when I am alone. I join for the fun of it... to share stories.
Not one of us is a BiS... PvP godling. 95% of the time... I enter solo.
<Saints of Hope>
Yeah, normal BiS players can wipe pretty much anyone out who has an average ilvl. It's like putting lvl 50s against 60s.
I got told by my teammates last night I shouldn't even be playing PvP as a SW.
Separate the queues
Urlord
Now I see that this WILL BE HAPPENING to GG. The Express Train to Pug town is going to screw that avenue for every other person interested in casual PvP. I met up with Expressos 3 times out of 6 matches... and for anyone that doubts this... they were 10 player premades. There is a reason that they are there... we all know it... yet they seem to think that they are kings of PvP.
Honestly... at this point... I think GG should be Solo entry ONLY. Make the abusers compete in the 'hardcore PvP' they like to dish out... in Dom.
Look at the class distribution. See how it is very abnormal that one side has 4 out 10 spots with DCs, and the other side has half its entire composition made out of GWFs and GFs. In the beginning, I didn't understand what was causing this imbalance in sides. I thought it was something wrong with the system and it somehow failed to distribute the classes evenly among both sides.
Then I came to learn that an abnormal roster like this, is actually caused by premades. The more/larger premades there are in one side, the more weird and abnormal the roster becomes.
Basically, what is happening, is at the least 4~5 of them on the opponent's side on the roster, are premades. The way that it is formed of all the tank/fighter classes. The single DC on that side is most probably the heal slave they've larried along. So, when the system is forming the queue and distributing/placing different classes in each team, suddenly 4~5 pre-determined classes take up the spot on one side, and therefore all the other classes/players are just dumped into the opposite side, regardless of what class they are.
Open up the roster. When you see that the roster is weird in this way it is a very sure and clear indicator that there are f-in' cheesy premades in work, whether they be from all same guild, or just a gathering of individual worthless pricks does not matter. It's a trollmade.
** Ofcourse, not all trollmades look that way. Depending on their formation, it could actually look very normal on the roster screen. So the roster is just one of the symptoms that could be recognized, but does not account for all of them. **
...and their handiwork?
One sided game. This game was lost from 5mins. From that point, camp-spawn.
And this goes on, and on, and on, and on, and on... until the worthless group of pricks decides that its boring, or they had their share of slaughter, and decides to disband.
So tell me again, PvP guilders. Didn't you say you formed your guilds to enjoy PvP? Exactly what part of this is "PvP"? You don't play against anyone when you form these sick, worthless trollmades amongts pug queues. There is no "Player versus Player" here.
Just in which part are we supposed to think your very existence is better for the PvP scene and the PvP community?
I don't see it. Do you?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Was this a premade or just a bad match, yet again?
As I said before, to reiterate what you just said... some guilds have taken to using GG as their 'turf'. They don't want real competition that will make them better at PvP... they want this.
Join the Greycloaks
Ana-GWF SM Destroyer | Farseer-CW MoF Renegade | Leon-GF SM Tactician
Adrik Battlefate-DC DO Virtuous | Cassi Woodsheart-HR PF Trapper
I don't have enough data yet to draw a final and decisive conclusion, but empirically speaking when you have an abnormal roster like that, it's 9 times out of 10 a trollmade on the other side. Like mentioned above, the systems seems to first distribute classes in a certain order, although not usre if there is a priority.
For example, it seems to roll like this.
Let's assume there is a total of:
- 3 x DCs
- 2 x TRs
- 2 x Palys
- 4 x CWs
- 2 x GWFs
- 1 x SWs
- 1 x HR
- 5 man premade made out of DC, Paly, Paly, TR, HR
1. The system, IMO, first divides and distributes according to class...
A TEAM: DC... DC... TR... Paly... GWF...
B TEAM: DC... TR... Paly... GWF...
2. But then a 5-man premade comes in, and thus, placed in the A team, which then naturally pushes everyone else to the B team, resulting in something like this:
A TEAM: DC, DC, TR, Paly, GWF, DC, Paly, Paly, TR, HR
B TEAM: DC, TR, Paly, GWF, CW, CW, CW, CW, SW, HR
3. So as you can see, in this case all the 4 CWs are pushed aside to the B team, as well as the SW... resulting in 5 ranged/casting classes to one side without proper tanking meatshields or even healing... causing an abnormal looking, very biased or ill-made team roster. At least, that's my theory.
Normally, even the most popular of classes, has a certain number distributed within each game. Under normal circumstances you don't see stuff like a single class having 3, 4, or even 5 in one side. When that happens you can be almost positive that one of the side has a big trollmade working in it.
Conversely, there could be other instances, such as ...
- 3 x DCs
- 2 x TRs
- 2 x Palys
- 4 x CWs
- 2 x GWFs
- 1 x SWs
- 1 x HR
- 5 man premade made out of GWF, GWF, GWF, GF, DC
...in this case a classic, classic example of an intentional trolling-purpose trollmade made out of 3 BIS GWFS + GF in one side. When this happens the roster looks like...
A TEAM: DC, DC, TR, Paly, GWF, GWF, GWF, GWF, GF, DC
B TEAM: DC, TR, Paly, GWF, CW, CW, CW, CW, SW, HR
The A team gets 4 GWFs, a GF and Paly, 3 DCs and a TR. The B team has 4 x CWs without proper amount of healing or tanking/meat shielding available, thus, again, in an open engagement the B team is cannon-fodder.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
==============================================================
I have suggested the solo queue as the only means to enter a GG match. It was met with some VERY harsh criticism.
Though it is time for Dom to have a Team queue and a Solo queue. If it does not... unless there is a NCL event going on... no one but members of PvP guilds will enter Dom.
The balance problem may never be worked out, but doing this is a step in the right direction.
As it seems in it's current state... only those seeking to abuse Pugs enter GG with premades... 5-man or 10-man. As I have said before... I have entered GG with premades from CA... but that was about 60 days ago.
Join the Greycloaks
Ana-GWF SM Destroyer | Farseer-CW MoF Renegade | Leon-GF SM Tactician
Adrik Battlefate-DC DO Virtuous | Cassi Woodsheart-HR PF Trapper
Changing from SOLO QUEUE to GROUP QUEUE will not help resolve the problem, because eventually there would be people complaining things like "This game is f**king ridicious, I cannot even play with my friends!!! Everytime I queue with my friends we ended up going up against those BiS premade team, and there is no f**king way we stand any chance!!! They might as well make this a !@*%*@ single player game cus it makes no @&
then there would be lower tier PvP guilds that gets trashed over and over in DOM, eventually they would give up on Group Queue, cus they simply stand no chance against the higher tier premades!!! So guess what they would do...? They would start Queuing at the same time, call out POPs to check how many could be from their own team, then join the games as a "solo queued" semi-full Premade, and then guess what the actual pugs would start to complain again...? Eventually its gonna be the same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over and over again, this will NOT fix anything.
You guys might 'FEEL' implementing this is a 'step to the right direction', but a "Step" without a "Full Picture" might eventually mean its just a waste of effort, and when you run a multi-million dollars company, you would not really want to 'Trail' unless you have a full picture with solid ground to believe it would actually work.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
a) mixed queue (solo q + all kind of premade size)
b) solo q only
Let players decide which one they find more balanced.
Not true. Even the queue pop up same time, they could be in different group. Well, they are been so pathetic to wait 1 mins and check they are in the same group, I don't think any guild would do that or do that constantly.
Join the Greycloaks
Ana-GWF SM Destroyer | Farseer-CW MoF Renegade | Leon-GF SM Tactician
Adrik Battlefate-DC DO Virtuous | Cassi Woodsheart-HR PF Trapper
The effects of the constant pug abuse is taking hold. When I would enter the queue for GG before the NCL the longest it would take was 7 to 10 minutes.
All 3 DCs in the enemy team, as well as the Palyroaches and CWs. If you look into it, you'll notice it is actually something that resembles a Domination-grade team roster, and clearly the opponent team is a group of either 2 or 3 premades.
The score, of course, explains everything else. The game itself was over in 3mins or so.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
https://youtube.com/watch?v=YEzt02iRr20
is it better with Module 7 ? I do not think so
What an absolute mess of a match. I would assume that you were the high scoring TR in that Blue group. I would say by the score that match and the players scores that it may have been over before 3 minutes.
Naw. I'm the HR with 1 deaths in the blue team. The game was basically shut-off around little over 2 mins and then it was over. Nothing to do but campfire sing-alongs.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
It's just standard strategy, in the same lines of people in Domination going for mid-node at the same times as the TRs immediately infiltrating the rear nodes. This is actually a key indicator of how many experienced players are in each of the two sides when a GG match starts -- when you are the only one headed straight toward the enemy node, but they have 3~4 incoming, then you know the game's probably a loss, because they have that much people who are aggressive, confident, and know how PvP should be played, while this side has almost none.
It also happens that its the one simple, basic strategy normal pug players never seem to learn the importance of. Basically they just waste the crucial first minute of the match by wasting time and manpower capturing an empty node with 3~4 people. So when I'm the only one on this side as I blow past 2 and arrive somewhere near 5, and they have 4~5 incoming, then that's also a tell-tale sign of a premade, all of them.
So basically, if there were no team queues, and everybody was to solo queue GG, what would (hopefully) happen is a spectacular "clash of the titans" as the BiS and/or PvPguild and/or independant skilled players that are randomly placed on the two sides would almost all clash at the middle point soon after the game starts, both in front of 5 and in the middle of 1-3 line... and soon all the naive pugs that wasted time doing nothing would also finish capturing the closest nodes and either join the fight or attempt to blow past... and whatever conclusion, the fight won't be ending in 3 minutes into the game.
Instead, a trollmade forms, gathers ALL those BiS and/or PvP guild and/or independant players onto one side, and then just steamrolls the other side where only pugs have landed. And of course, game over in 3 mins.
Yowsa. Waiting for 10~15min queues to fight for 3 minutes in an one-sided match. And for some reason the premades think that's supposed to be "fun"?
They bonkers or something?
I thought they make the excuse that they do it because they want to enjoy PvP with their friends or guildies...except, there is no PvP when they enter the match as premades. The game ends in 3 mins and then everyone just stands around doing nothing for 3~4 times that time.
So, just what, exactly, are they supposed to be "enjoying"?
Everyone already knows the answer.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
That is EXACTLY what happens, when devs just overlook stuff like this. It's one of the more common and usual reasons behind a promising game with good PvP potential, suddenly going belly up in PvP and soon the community becomes extinct, with the only PvE present.
It's (unfortunately) a commonly observed, vicius cycle which I've seen happen to a TON of MMOGs over the last two decades of online gaming.
IMO, NW is now at stage2.
And make no mistake, this DOES happen. Combine the inaction of the devs, and as much, pish-poor and unsportsmanly conduct from the griefers, and the game dies. Cryptic's very own Champions Online PvP blew up that way, because they didn't do anything about the balance problems behind certain problematic builds. Instead of refusing that trend, more of those "pros" thought it would be so awesome to build the same FotM, cookie-cutter OP sheet until basically everyone was walking around with the same sheet except for casual players.
Balance busted, op players everywhere, people slowly leave the game, and now, basically PvP is dead there. You could queue for 3 hours and the answer you'd get is "waiting for players".
The thugs and goons thumping their chests around? They could have at least, slowed down this cycle until the devs came up with something, but no. They make it worse. Every possible exploit, every possible balance problem, the so-called "pros" never hesitate to use it.
PvPers? PvP guilds? No, they are not. None of those pukes are PvPers. They just griefers.
Every major "PvP guild" full of unethical, shady indivduals whose done everything from abusing wall bugs, getting into enemy spawns, abusing Astral Resonator exploit and/or mailing exploit, AH exploit for gazillion ADs stolen from the game and stashed into their mule accounts... they don't really give a sheet whether or not PvP becomes worse because of them.
In the end, they bring the house down... and then move over to some other new game and do basically the same sheet all over again. Locusts and pests, cancer of the community they are, and look how many people used to just worship them and make krap excuses for them everytime when their vile actions come under scrutiny of the public.
None of the major PvP guilds in NW are free of that blame. They are the ones that break the game, break the community, and ultimately break PvP itself by making it worse and worse everyday.
Individually, many of them are swell guys. But as a group, they don'g give a f**k, They're not PvPers.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
That was when the membership was over 12 million players worldwide... in the mid 2k's.
12 million players and you can't get a queue to pop for an hour.
I am 100% sure that most ambitious and PVP orientated player with some skill and talent turned their back to this game, and the rest will follow
lasting a while bc they invested lots of money and time in their Chars, sure it hurts, but in the end this game seems to be a hopeless case
A balanced and skill orientated PVP never will show up in this game
I will have to agree with this comment. Some really good PvP'rs have stayed but they hesitate to enter with a premade. They do not see the value in it... there is no competition left.
Pretty soon the dregs will be complaining about a lack of competition because they have grown tired of the constant pug-stomps after 30 minute wait times. Many of them have admitted that they do not need gear, they do not need glory, but it seems that they are bored due to a lack of content in-game. So their only choice is to enter PvP... and kick the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of little kids down the street.
Definitely a 95% confidence indicator
I also PuG 95% of the time. It's a good way to learn how to survive versus superior numbers, plus you can help newbies along the way. If i'm in a stomping match (winning or losing) I try to get the winning team to allow cap trading.