Well being a 3.8 + OP I can tell you that if you get caught in a cc without temp hp, or shield up, several classes can melt you in a matter of seconds, SW, TR, CW, anything esle will not have enough time for you to not go defensive enough to live.
chain CC is a death sentence for a Paly.
Well,...sorry to say...chain CC is death sentence for all class my friend...
Pff worst pally ever, you need to move becouse you look like dummy just dummy is stronger than u, u even not dealing dmg to them while with decent build pally can fight vs 3, stand long vs them + even can kill some in a while.
@openforbreakfast : Something must be wrong with you when all top players already stated that Protector OP is BROKEN.
Every class is broken in one way or another.
"All ppl complaining about paladins being immortals are undergeared players, who are thinking like young hussar officers - they want to slice the enemy with few hits and then to go for a drink."
Trickster rogue - "Hey, I can't one-shoot the pally with my bugged 80k+ shocking execution, the class must be broken. Yes, definitely broken, it's not fair to stay alive."
"All ppl complaining about paladins being immortals are undergeared players, who are thinking like young hussar officers - they want to slice the enemy with few hits and then to go for a drink."
Much of the problem with discussing survivability is the varied builds you will see Paladins running.
The OP (OP herein referring to original poster not Oathbound Paladin) here is running a poorly optimized survival build. From the partial information we get from when he shows his character screen, we can tell that he isn't using the Lostmauth set nor does he appear to be building to it although that could be a false assumption. He has poor armor penetration. From the damage he's taking from the Paladin at the start, he seems to be low on damage resistance. Black Paladin's damage seems to be mitigated very poorly.
Additionally, we see Templar's Wrath being run over Absolution. Absolution is a 30,000 base absorption field (39,000 at rank 3). Templar's Wrath has to deal 13,000 damage to equal Absolution. This will typically require 3 targets to be superior unless the Paladin is damage oriented. The OP's build is not going to kill anyone. Templar's Wrath becomes less attractive the less importance we place on damage. It can serve a dual purpose if we are intending to deal damage. Otherwise, it becomes significantly less important as to maximize its effectiveness we would need to gear for ArP which is exclusively an offensive stat outside of Templar's Wrath.
If you want to max survival, most of what I've read here and on reddit is simply inaccurate. Stacking defense is critical. I think I have 16,000 defense in PvP. My base resistance is right at 60% if I'm not mistaken. I do not die in 2v1s where I do not lag or make terrible mistakes regardless of my opponents item level or what classes I'm facing. At three people, it normally becomes an issue of knockdown CC effects if they are equal or better geared than I am, but normally, I do not die quickly. It is just that death becomes inevitable. At 4-5 players, I'm virtually always going to die. I can drag it out fairly long depending on how I'm set up at the outset and the level of CC I'm facing. I do not have a Transcendent Elven Battle Enchantment yet. I really want one. However, I do have a mythic Ogham's and Cleansing Touch can effectively counter non-excessive CC when utilized correctly. I prefer Ogham's as there are times where I'm getting hit with a lot of CC and, while I'm in no danger, someone on my team might be. The total CC immunity allows me to get off abilities whenever I need to for the most part. More of interrupt prevention than anything else. That may change with TEB.
Furthermore, I do not understand the builds of many Paladins I see. For example, the OP's build seems counter productive to group PvP. His abilities are primarily focused on self-preservation. He has very limited capability for damage. He has very limited capability to support the rest of the group. While this may be very effective in certain types of PvP such as Capture the Flag or an Arathi Basin type point capture where a player must use an interruptable channel to capture a point, it seems to be a build of questionable value in Control Point style PvP map.
The purpose of the protection OP is to tank. You can't kill the squishy mage or hunter when you're engaged by a heavy and hard to kill mass of muscles and metal. While you're hopelessly hitting the tank, the rest of the team is doing the bloody work. The OP is perfect in this job, that's why the class isn't broken.
"Role: Defender. You are extremely durable, with high hit points and the ability to wear the heaviest armor.You can issue bold challenges to foes and compel them to fight you rather than your allies. "
"All ppl complaining about paladins being immortals are undergeared players, who are thinking like young hussar officers - they want to slice the enemy with few hits and then to go for a drink."
The purpose of the protection OP is to tank. You can't kill the squishy mage or hunter when you're engaged by a heavy and hard to kill mass of muscles and metal. While you're hopelessly hitting the tank, the rest of the team is doing the bloody work. The OP is perfect in this job, that's why the class isn't broken.
"Role: Defender. You are extremely durable, with high hit points and the ability to wear the heaviest armor.You can issue bold challenges to foes and compel them to fight you rather than your allies. "
Outside of fewer than a handful of games and niche areas, tanking in PvP does not work.
We had PvP tanking, at least at release, in Age of Conan, as not attacking the tank meant very bad things- one shots from Bloody Vengeance from Guardians on like a 1 second CD or infinite group resurrections from Conquerors. You sort of had a little bit of it in WAR. You can have it in Capture the Flag PvP. That last incarnation of table top D&D I played tanking was largely a matter of the combination positioning, attacks of opportunity, and forced movement. In PvP in a video game, those tools are either largely ineffective or missing. You cannot tank in a PvP environment if there is not a compelling reason for players to attack you over non-tank classes.
I love how an OP dying to another OP and GF is cause for great concern.
it is, since not even close to bis CW deal damage to kill 2.7k ilvl Justice pala, only cw that has killed me close to solo was so geared that even his r12's in utility slots had r12 enchants
The purpose of the protection OP is to tank. You can't kill the squishy mage or hunter when you're engaged by a heavy and hard to kill mass of muscles and metal. While you're hopelessly hitting the tank, the rest of the team is doing the bloody work. The OP is perfect in this job, that's why the class isn't broken.
"Role: Defender. You are extremely durable, with high hit points and the ability to wear the heaviest armor.You can issue bold challenges to foes and compel them to fight you rather than your allies. "
Outside of fewer than a handful of games and niche areas, tanking in PvP does not work.
We had PvP tanking, at least at release, in Age of Conan, as not attacking the tank meant very bad things- one shots from Bloody Vengeance from Guardians on like a 1 second CD or infinite group resurrections from Conquerors. You sort of had a little bit of it in WAR. You can have it in Capture the Flag PvP. That last incarnation of table top D&D I played tanking was largely a matter of the combination positioning, attacks of opportunity, and forced movement. In PvP in a video game, those tools are either largely ineffective or missing. You cannot tank in a PvP environment if there is not a compelling reason for players to attack you over non-tank classes.
that is why paladins sit on nodes and have a lot of utility, while you still can attack squishies paladins have the tools to help them and you will still have to deal with them at some point if you want the node
Furthermore, I do not understand the builds of many Paladins I see. For example, the OP's build seems counter productive to group PvP. His abilities are primarily focused on self-preservation. He has very limited capability for damage. He has very limited capability to support the rest of the group. While this may be very effective in certain types of PvP such as Capture the Flag or an Arathi Basin type point capture where a player must use an interruptable channel to capture a point, it seems to be a build of questionable value in Control Point style PvP map.
there are a lot of variables when choosing skill setup for Pala, do you want to just survive or do you want to kill smth, what classes are there etc.
also there are 2 general ways to focus the build on generally onesided class like pala - you can focus on your strength and maximize your survivability, of try to deal with the class weakness and focus on doing damage, it also varies depending on the gear level and class of ppl you play against - against a bis CW all i can do is to survive and spend as much time on node as possible, and pick features, encounters and daily abilities for that, vs badly geared opponents you want as much damage as possible to maximize the time node generate points for you, vs most trs i go full or mostly full dps to clear them, vs a paladin i will sit on my throne of Boo.
You cannot tank in a PvP environment if there is not a compelling reason for players to attack you over non-tank classes.
This is true if the OP is staying in one place, with his shield up, spamming WOT. If the OP wants to be engaged by the enemy team, he have to use more active playing style. My playing style - I'm jumping at the enemy team, pushing them on the ground with TW, constantly pounding them with everything I got. When they move, I'm there, hitting them over and over again. They can't target my team if I'm in their way - their skills are targeting me instead. This is more than enough for my team to burn them into oblivion. Active pvp tanking, plain and simple.
"All ppl complaining about paladins being immortals are undergeared players, who are thinking like young hussar officers - they want to slice the enemy with few hits and then to go for a drink."
this video shows an undergeared OP against a GF+ a OP with about 2 or 3 times more stats + broken lol set + wheel of elements buff
think they should have killed you faster imo, GF can triple mark, his crescendo only dealt 33k from 98k so he reduced your DR to 66% more or less, how much DR do you have, near cap 80% in guess using barkshield?
normally mark+ p Bronzewood means DR gets diminished by 20+8+16-about 34%? maybe i am not correct
so in case he would have used all possibilities to bypass Arp resistence he could melt your defences to lets say 46%
in this case he marked u once, can´t say what his weapon enchant is - guess T feytouched or p vorp
so normally you should fall faster not wearing T negation
that is why paladins sit on nodes and have a lot of utility, while you still can attack squishies paladins have the tools to help them and you will still have to deal with them at some point if you want the node
I don't necessarily disagree with this. However, many feat and power selections Paladins make are of questionable utility.
there are a lot of variables when choosing skill setup for Pala, do you want to just survive or do you want to kill smth, what classes are there etc.
also there are 2 general ways to focus the build on generally onesided class like pala - you can focus on your strength and maximize your survivability, of try to deal with the class weakness and focus on doing damage, it also varies depending on the gear level and class of ppl you play against - against a bis CW all i can do is to survive and spend as much time on node as possible, and pick features, encounters and daily abilities for that, vs badly geared opponents you want as much damage as possible to maximize the time node generate points for you, vs most trs i go full or mostly full dps to clear them, vs a paladin i will sit on my throne of Boo.
I more or less agree. There is a third way to build. You can go survival while focusing on support. There is no real trade-off. You end up with significantly more survivability and much more utility at the expense of irrelevant damage. If you are looking at the options with that included, you have the following choices:
1.) Build for survival, have some utility and support functionality, inconsequential damage and control
2.) Build for more damage, have decent survivability in most circumstances, have some utility and support functionality, have relevant or close to relevant damage, have inconsequential control
3.) Build for more support, have better survival than 1.), have solid utility and support functionality, have inconsequential damage, and no control
You cannot tank in a PvP environment if there is not a compelling reason for players to attack you over non-tank classes.
This is true if the OP is staying in one place, with his shield up, spamming WOT. If the OP wants to be engaged by the enemy team, he have to use more active playing style. My playing style - I'm jumping at the enemy team, pushing them on the ground with TW, constantly pounding them with everything I got. When they move, I'm there, hitting them over and over again. They can't target my team if I'm in their way - their skills are targeting me instead. This is more than enough for my team to burn them into oblivion. Active pvp tanking, plain and simple.
Templar's Wrath is a poor stun. It does not knock the targets hit to the ground. It is on a 15 second base and Absolution is on a 16 second CD. Templar's Wrath deals inconsequential damage in any build not dedicating resources to damage. Absolultion is targetable absorption. Templar's Wrath is not. Now, Blinding Light is very sweet control. The charge is awkward to work with; however, I have seen a pair of Paladins running it together and it was extremely difficult to deal with.
but templars can hit TRs - main reason why i use it instead of absolution + that ministun can help with landing avenger
and tank/support build is more or less the same for me, skills that are good to sustain and protect myself also can be used for team, at least as a prot
We don't know the GF's gear.
But a 4k+ sw(even the weakest class in pvp) can kill you within 10 seconds
I think the OP's point is that other classes (even classes that aren't known for burst damage) can burst down an OP (though I've never seen one in full pvp gear go down so fast). You probably missed the part where the GF's Cresendo did 98k (before DR) and immediately followed with 50k Bull Charge (again, before DR). This, along with a couple of other procs, basically took 75% of his health within 2 seconds.
This is a common technique used to try to make PVP seem more balanced. Using procs, crits and abilities with long cooldowns to try to give the illusion of closer balance between classes. Just have to live with it. Especially with NW, since classes are so out of whack for PVP (why do you think the smallest PVP match is 5v5? And why only Domination? Imagine 5v5 DM where one side has OP and DC and the other side has neither)
Most of my matches is about capping. You're not going to kill anyone with OP tank unless you kill steal, they go afk or dont have tenacity. Enemy team will often send another tank or healer against you and then you can go afk or start chatting, cause nobody gonna die 1vs1.
Matches arent worth engaging, cause most of the time ~ 7 out of 10 classes are healers or tanks.
Most of my matches is about capping. You're not going to kill anyone with OP tank unless you kill steal, they go afk or dont have tenacity. Enemy team will often send another tank or healer against you and then you can go afk or start chatting, cause nobody gonna die 1vs1.
Matches arent worth engaging, cause most of the time ~ 7 out of 10 classes are healers or tanks.
true its boring, but paladins need their tanking ability for PvE and the damage/cc/cc resist needs to be increased by a ton to compensate resistance nerfs. since else pala would be worse than sw since sw at least can kill smth
Just wanted to add some food for thought, don't mind me:
if that would be the case the damage must have been much higher, 33k from 98k crescendo against a target without Negation enchant, would have dealt about 60k damage, no its not RI I guess
hehehe.. who said OP can't be kill in less than 3 sec. my TR can kill OP in 2 sec.
and their daily DJ is nothing now lol. the most 2k to 3k .. hahaha. so pity to paladin .. get nerfed so bad!
funny thing is.. people still complain. that OP was impossible to kill.. .. joke! they asking to nerf the tanking ability .. hahaha. if Dev going to nerf their ability to tank.. then bye bye OP.
well , its relatively easy to kill op. they just dont how to deal with paladin. .its need 1 TR and CW or SW.. or 1 Good TR is enough.
hehehe.. who said OP can't be kill in less than 3 sec. my TR can kill OP in 2 sec.
and their daily DJ is nothing now lol. the most 2k to 3k .. hahaha. so pity to paladin .. get nerfed so bad!
funny thing is.. people still complain. that OP was impossible to kill.. .. joke! they asking to nerf the tanking ability .. hahaha. if Dev going to nerf their ability to tank.. then bye bye OP.
well , its relatively easy to kill op. they just dont how to deal with paladin. .its need 1 TR and CW or SW.. or 1 Good TR is enough.
then i havent met a good TR usually they <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> their pants and run away
hehehe.. who said OP can't be kill in less than 3 sec. my TR can kill OP in 2 sec.
and their daily DJ is nothing now lol. the most 2k to 3k .. hahaha. so pity to paladin .. get nerfed so bad!
funny thing is.. people still complain. that OP was impossible to kill.. .. joke! they asking to nerf the tanking ability .. hahaha. if Dev going to nerf their ability to tank.. then bye bye OP.
well , its relatively easy to kill op. they just dont how to deal with paladin. .its need 1 TR and CW or SW.. or 1 Good TR is enough.
then i havent met a good TR usually they <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> their pants and run away
so...burkaanc...can you tell me what spec pally are you?...devo/prot? feat? justice/bulwark/light?
prot justice. trs(even ones that have much better gear than me) usually evacuate. either i deal enough dmg to them or they realize they wont be able to kill me, and if they kill me fast then its usually tr + cw and both outgearing me
last person who could blow me up in seconds was cw with r12 in utility slots, and had a help with cc from another cw(not too geared, but decently geared), though he would have killed me in 1v1 also(probably), in 1v1 i die only if i derp hard, but there arent that many full bis ppl and most are ~3k and a bit over
its not to brag, its just what ive seen in 90 games ive played, mostly at the top end of leaderboard. i havent noticed much problems with trs, only class that poses difficulty within a similar gear range is CW, ofc there are more classes that can stall me, but cw is the most annoying. and anybody with brain can contest my node(if its their side) for most of the time,
prot justice. trs(even ones that have much better gear than me) usually evacuate. either i deal enough dmg to them or they realize they wont be able to kill me, and if they kill me fast then its usually tr + cw and both outgearing me
thanks burkaanc...for sharing..
one more thing ..may i know what aura you used? because im using aura of courage(BUG)..i died by my own aura of courage...in sec
kindly please DEV....fix our aura...
Comments
Well,...sorry to say...chain CC is death sentence for all class my friend...
**gruffs in Mr.T voice**
Abeen'lways like that since befo' you, foo
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The OP (OP herein referring to original poster not Oathbound Paladin) here is running a poorly optimized survival build. From the partial information we get from when he shows his character screen, we can tell that he isn't using the Lostmauth set nor does he appear to be building to it although that could be a false assumption. He has poor armor penetration. From the damage he's taking from the Paladin at the start, he seems to be low on damage resistance. Black Paladin's damage seems to be mitigated very poorly.
Additionally, we see Templar's Wrath being run over Absolution. Absolution is a 30,000 base absorption field (39,000 at rank 3). Templar's Wrath has to deal 13,000 damage to equal Absolution. This will typically require 3 targets to be superior unless the Paladin is damage oriented. The OP's build is not going to kill anyone. Templar's Wrath becomes less attractive the less importance we place on damage. It can serve a dual purpose if we are intending to deal damage. Otherwise, it becomes significantly less important as to maximize its effectiveness we would need to gear for ArP which is exclusively an offensive stat outside of Templar's Wrath.
If you want to max survival, most of what I've read here and on reddit is simply inaccurate. Stacking defense is critical. I think I have 16,000 defense in PvP. My base resistance is right at 60% if I'm not mistaken. I do not die in 2v1s where I do not lag or make terrible mistakes regardless of my opponents item level or what classes I'm facing. At three people, it normally becomes an issue of knockdown CC effects if they are equal or better geared than I am, but normally, I do not die quickly. It is just that death becomes inevitable. At 4-5 players, I'm virtually always going to die. I can drag it out fairly long depending on how I'm set up at the outset and the level of CC I'm facing. I do not have a Transcendent Elven Battle Enchantment yet. I really want one. However, I do have a mythic Ogham's and Cleansing Touch can effectively counter non-excessive CC when utilized correctly. I prefer Ogham's as there are times where I'm getting hit with a lot of CC and, while I'm in no danger, someone on my team might be. The total CC immunity allows me to get off abilities whenever I need to for the most part. More of interrupt prevention than anything else. That may change with TEB.
Furthermore, I do not understand the builds of many Paladins I see. For example, the OP's build seems counter productive to group PvP. His abilities are primarily focused on self-preservation. He has very limited capability for damage. He has very limited capability to support the rest of the group. While this may be very effective in certain types of PvP such as Capture the Flag or an Arathi Basin type point capture where a player must use an interruptable channel to capture a point, it seems to be a build of questionable value in Control Point style PvP map.
"Role: Defender. You are extremely durable, with high hit points and the ability to wear the heaviest armor.You can issue bold challenges to foes and compel them to fight you rather than your allies. "
D&D4 wiki
Outside of fewer than a handful of games and niche areas, tanking in PvP does not work.
We had PvP tanking, at least at release, in Age of Conan, as not attacking the tank meant very bad things- one shots from Bloody Vengeance from Guardians on like a 1 second CD or infinite group resurrections from Conquerors. You sort of had a little bit of it in WAR. You can have it in Capture the Flag PvP. That last incarnation of table top D&D I played tanking was largely a matter of the combination positioning, attacks of opportunity, and forced movement. In PvP in a video game, those tools are either largely ineffective or missing. You cannot tank in a PvP environment if there is not a compelling reason for players to attack you over non-tank classes.
it is, since not even close to bis CW deal damage to kill 2.7k ilvl Justice pala, only cw that has killed me close to solo was so geared that even his r12's in utility slots had r12 enchants
but op seems to not have proper gear
that is why paladins sit on nodes and have a lot of utility, while you still can attack squishies paladins have the tools to help them and you will still have to deal with them at some point if you want the node
there are a lot of variables when choosing skill setup for Pala, do you want to just survive or do you want to kill smth, what classes are there etc.
also there are 2 general ways to focus the build on generally onesided class like pala - you can focus on your strength and maximize your survivability, of try to deal with the class weakness and focus on doing damage, it also varies depending on the gear level and class of ppl you play against - against a bis CW all i can do is to survive and spend as much time on node as possible, and pick features, encounters and daily abilities for that, vs badly geared opponents you want as much damage as possible to maximize the time node generate points for you, vs most trs i go full or mostly full dps to clear them, vs a paladin i will sit on my throne of Boo.
think they should have killed you faster imo, GF can triple mark, his crescendo only dealt 33k from 98k so he reduced your DR to 66% more or less, how much DR do you have, near cap 80% in guess using barkshield?
normally mark+ p Bronzewood means DR gets diminished by 20+8+16-about 34%? maybe i am not correct
so in case he would have used all possibilities to bypass Arp resistence he could melt your defences to lets say 46%
in this case he marked u once, can´t say what his weapon enchant is - guess T feytouched or p vorp
so normally you should fall faster not wearing T negation
I don't necessarily disagree with this. However, many feat and power selections Paladins make are of questionable utility.
I more or less agree. There is a third way to build. You can go survival while focusing on support. There is no real trade-off. You end up with significantly more survivability and much more utility at the expense of irrelevant damage. If you are looking at the options with that included, you have the following choices:
1.) Build for survival, have some utility and support functionality, inconsequential damage and control
2.) Build for more damage, have decent survivability in most circumstances, have some utility and support functionality, have relevant or close to relevant damage, have inconsequential control
3.) Build for more support, have better survival than 1.), have solid utility and support functionality, have inconsequential damage, and no control
Option #1 is not a valid rational choice.
Templar's Wrath is a poor stun. It does not knock the targets hit to the ground. It is on a 15 second base and Absolution is on a 16 second CD. Templar's Wrath deals inconsequential damage in any build not dedicating resources to damage. Absolultion is targetable absorption. Templar's Wrath is not. Now, Blinding Light is very sweet control. The charge is awkward to work with; however, I have seen a pair of Paladins running it together and it was extremely difficult to deal with.
and tank/support build is more or less the same for me, skills that are good to sustain and protect myself also can be used for team, at least as a prot
PvP OP isnt much stronger than a good GWF/CW/TR
OP is like reverse CW
I think the OP's point is that other classes (even classes that aren't known for burst damage) can burst down an OP (though I've never seen one in full pvp gear go down so fast). You probably missed the part where the GF's Cresendo did 98k (before DR) and immediately followed with 50k Bull Charge (again, before DR). This, along with a couple of other procs, basically took 75% of his health within 2 seconds.
This is a common technique used to try to make PVP seem more balanced. Using procs, crits and abilities with long cooldowns to try to give the illusion of closer balance between classes. Just have to live with it. Especially with NW, since classes are so out of whack for PVP (why do you think the smallest PVP match is 5v5? And why only Domination? Imagine 5v5 DM where one side has OP and DC and the other side has neither)
Matches arent worth engaging, cause most of the time ~ 7 out of 10 classes are healers or tanks.
true its boring, but paladins need their tanking ability for PvE and the damage/cc/cc resist needs to be increased by a ton to compensate resistance nerfs. since else pala would be worse than sw since sw at least can kill smth
if that would be the case the damage must have been much higher, 33k from 98k crescendo against a target without Negation enchant, would have dealt about 60k damage, no its not RI I guess
and their daily DJ is nothing now lol. the most 2k to 3k .. hahaha. so pity to paladin .. get nerfed so bad!
funny thing is.. people still complain. that OP was impossible to kill.. .. joke! they asking to nerf the tanking ability .. hahaha. if Dev going to nerf their ability to tank.. then bye bye OP.
well , its relatively easy to kill op. they just dont how to deal with paladin. .its need 1 TR and CW or SW.. or 1 Good TR is enough.
then i havent met a good TR
so...burkaanc...can you tell me what spec pally are you?...devo/prot? feat? justice/bulwark/light?
last person who could blow me up in seconds was cw with r12 in utility slots, and had a help with cc from another cw(not too geared, but decently geared), though he would have killed me in 1v1 also(probably), in 1v1 i die only if i derp hard, but there arent that many full bis ppl and most are ~3k and a bit over
its not to brag, its just what ive seen in 90 games ive played, mostly at the top end of leaderboard. i havent noticed much problems with trs, only class that poses difficulty within a similar gear range is CW, ofc there are more classes that can stall me, but cw is the most annoying. and anybody with brain can contest my node(if its their side) for most of the time,