Step 1) Remove Daggers Damage buff.
Step 2) Increase Base damage by ~30% across the board. (Roughly net zero)
Step 3) Remove Powerful Challenge, now only adds threat.
Step 4) Strength now provides 2% dmg (up from 1%). (Roughly net zero)
Step 5) Focused Destroyer - now 100% chance to gain a stack. No longer gives additional 3.5% dmg bonus per stack. (net dmg loss but easier to keep up).
lol. Nothing enough isn't it?
In mod6 GWFs already has:
1) best weapon dmg in the game by far.
2) best stackable buffs in the game.
3) Often see 500k-1mill IBS, IS and Crescendo from medium geared GWFs. Doing 1:2 dmg in Tiamat and great dmg in dungeons compared to other classes.
If this is some kind of "pvp-only" request to kill more efficiently with base dmg rather than stacked dmg then put it in the pvp section!
stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
I think adding more Marks isnt needed for PvE. Marks force aggro from tanks and since gwf is a dps which is 1 shot like everybody else it can break fights. Literally, try to play as a tank with GWF that forces aggro from you every few seconds, its very, very inconvenient. And its even worse against bosses that have deadly instant frontal attacks - gwf places mark 0.1s before boss wants to cast frontal - bang gwf and everybody nearby is dead. Squishy dps class that gets significantly more damage at cost of stealing aggro is bad design, imo. I can keep them alive with Divine Protector, but then I get hit for WAY more than I normally would. I track damage taken on every run and usually gwfs are WAY higher than anybody else, except of me.
Also - I dont like these changes. GWF is already way over the top if it comes to PvE damage, rising it even more to balance PvP is not the way to go. Looking from PvE perspective its like saying:"Dungeon mobs and bosses deal insane damage to tanks, buff OP shield to 90% DR, give them 100% more temp hp and healing, longer control duration and increase their shields value by 50%". How would you react to that as PvP player?
PVE in general is incredibly broken. GWF is fine damage wise, but that's not the problem. The problem is when trash mobs kill a GWF in one shot. That's a broken system.
Because no matter what a GWF does... he's gonna take hits. Because he's fighting the enemy up close and personal. So when some hexer blasts me for 85k damage when I only have 65k HP, there's something incredibly broken with the system.
PVE in general is incredibly broken. GWF is fine damage wise, but that's not the problem. The problem is when trash mobs kill a GWF in one shot. That's a broken system.
Because no matter what a GWF does... he's gonna take hits. Because he's fighting the enemy up close and personal. So when some hexer blasts me for 85k damage when I only have 65k HP, there's something incredibly broken with the system.
Im pretty sure many would argue about the "GWF is fine damage wise" since they are literally in other bracket of dps measurement
Anyway that is what tanks/controllers/debuffers are for - so you dont get hit
A system that absolutely REQUIRES tanks, controllers, and debuffers in order to withstand a SINGLE hit from an enemy is broken, as far as I'm concerned. Sure the dash can reduce the damage by half... but I can't exactly dash while swinging, and it only works against attacks you see coming and not the instant attacks that STILL do enough damage to one shot kill.
Heck... GWF is designed to take hits. You can't effectively activate Unstoppable unless you take a few hits. But when you can't survive a single hit, you can't use Unstoppable, making you essentially a waste of space.
A system that absolutely REQUIRES tanks, controllers, and debuffers in order to withstand a SINGLE hit from an enemy is broken, as far as I'm concerned. Sure the dash can reduce the damage by half... but I can't exactly dash while swinging, and it only works against attacks you see coming and not the instant attacks that STILL do enough damage to one shot kill.
Heck... GWF is designed to take hits. You can't effectively activate Unstoppable unless you take a few hits. But when you can't survive a single hit, you can't use Unstoppable, making you essentially a waste of space.
Doesnt your destroyer tree give you unstoppable after a few hits you deal? I think that is how GWFs are designed, they start from scratch (which, on a side note, is kind of top dps for other classes) but as fight goes on they become significantly more powerful
/Edit: Nevermind the rest, I dont want this discussion to be 100000th thread of "dungeons are too hard", there are more than enough of them :P
I can activate destroyer after one or two hits, yes. But when those one or two hits kill me faster than I can click tab, such as instantly reducing my health from full to dead with a single hit, it doesn't do much good.
I'm not joking when I said that trash guy hit me with an instant undodgeable blow that dealt more damage than I had HP. And it kept happening again and again. Destroyers are always perfectly viable by stacking strength and dex before... but now it seems that stat config is no longer viable since you no longer have enough HP to survive a single hit.
Also I recall my damage resistance was around 30-40% prior to mod 6... and now it's like 20%. That's pretty dumb, I'm wearing scale, not cloth.
The other feat trees are not meant to be DPS. NO class has 3 DPS trees, or is meant to.
What is your beef with instigators and sentinels? Seriously? All you do is run around GWF threads and just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on any idea that could POSSIBLY up their damage, survivability and utility so they can get in groups and have a role. You provide no feedback other than BM&Cs.
the main point is: you need think about what macjae say and try do a arrangement because he is 100% correct (that guy too).
the ideal is a total rework until all the trees be +/- desiderable. but is far more easy (and less traumatic) in short term work a single tree for a specific demand.
and dont forget; if no one try bargain sentinels/intimidation by some general advantages, maybe we have 2 strong trees today.
I was a sentinel in Mod 5 on 2 GWFs. It got nerfed, I moved back to Destroyer. I have no beef with the 2 other paths, I just think that they will never be DPS trees. Sentinel is a type of off-tank. Instigator is a sort of a PVP hybrid. Destroyer is DPS.
Oh.
FOTM builds. Explains a bit.
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
Yeah ive seen that. Its highly PVE focused and would get 2 shot in PVP. However Ill give him the benefit of the doubt but he is missing the fact that Powerful Challenge (15% dmg bonus) + Mark (20% dmg bonus) + Combat Adv (~12%-15%+) makes up MUCH more than the 30% from WMS. Now he may not want to feat 10 points into Sent for that, and maybe with crit that high Insti feats pay off more.
Hi, I'm just passing by to say that this statement is wrong. I'm using Daring Shout for the mark bonus + CA bonus + Powerful Challenge (because I don't longer need crit % from Insti) AND Weapon Master's Strike. Slotting DS instead of another offensive encounter is much more rewarding for a SM. Please, don't assume things.
Step 1) Remove Daggers Damage buff.
Step 2) Increase Base damage by ~30% across the board. (Roughly net zero)
Step 3) Remove Powerful Challenge, now only adds threat.
Step 4) Strength now provides 2% dmg (up from 1%). (Roughly net zero)
Step 5) Focused Destroyer - now 100% chance to gain a stack. No longer gives additional 3.5% dmg bonus per stack. (net dmg loss but easier to keep up).
lol. Nothing enough isn't it?
In mod6 GWFs already has:
1) best weapon dmg in the game by far.
2) best stackable buffs in the game.
3) Often see 500k-1mill IBS, IS and Crescendo from medium geared GWFs. Doing 1:2 dmg in Tiamat and great dmg in dungeons compared to other classes.
If this is some kind of "pvp-only" request to kill more efficiently with base dmg rather than stacked dmg then put it in the pvp section!
Thanks for Posting, but you clearly dont play a GWF or just dont know what you dont know.
1) Weapon damage means NOTHING if all your BASE damage encounter (the formula for damage) is 50% LOWER than everyone else.
So lets pretend (just for kicks) the formula is X-X base damage * Weapon damage X-X. So yes, GWFs have 2k+ Weapondamage where everyone else has 1600 ish but if the GWF "BASE" damage is (1-1) * (1772-2166) means the "base damage" for the ability would then be 1,772-2,166
however a GF for example could have 1,400 - 1,600 or w.e but if their BASE is 1.5 do the math...
1.5-1.5 * 1400-1600 that means = 2,100 - 2,400
MEANING GFs have a BIGGER base damage eventhough they have LESS base damage.
2) Best stackable buffs in the game - THIS IS MY POINT ONLY WHEN YOU CAN STACK THEM!!! When you CANT stack them you deal NO damage.
3) This is PVE and with MASSIVE buffs. PVE is NOT the issue. I think PVE damage is TOO MUCH. Read the damn posts dude. Im advocating for LESS "max" damage but easier time to get stacks.
Yeah ive seen that. Its highly PVE focused and would get 2 shot in PVP. However Ill give him the benefit of the doubt but he is missing the fact that Powerful Challenge (15% dmg bonus) + Mark (20% dmg bonus) + Combat Adv (~12%-15%+) makes up MUCH more than the 30% from WMS. Now he may not want to feat 10 points into Sent for that, and maybe with crit that high Insti feats pay off more.
Hi, I'm just passing by to say that this statement is wrong. I'm using Daring Shout for the mark bonus + CA bonus + Powerful Challenge (because I don't longer need crit % from Insti) AND Weapon Master's Strike. Slotting DS instead of another offensive encounter is much more rewarding for a SM. Please, don't assume things.
Yeah I actually read your post in detail last night and saw this. Didnt take the time to edit because when I saw this today there were too many comments now LOL.
Also - I dont like these changes. GWF is already way over the top if it comes to PvE damage, rising it even more to balance PvP is not the way to go. Looking from PvE perspective its like saying:"Dungeon mobs and bosses deal insane damage to tanks, buff OP shield to 90% DR, give them 100% more temp hp and healing, longer control duration and increase their shields value by 50%". How would you react to that as PvP player?
This makes no sense... I advocate for an overall damage reduction but an easier time of obtaining stacks which alleviates PVE concerns and FIXES the GWF for PVP - actually tones them down a bit and you dont like it?
i will try to keep it short and simple.
gwfs do have right saying that the class is related to unstoppable to take stacks and do crazy damages.
Some gwfs do like it, some other dont.
this particular gwf is asking for more damage, which can be welcomed at the cost of losing all other crazy stack mechanics. Hence more easy and reliable damage, in the end it must be less damage and not only a bit less.
Unstoppable counter the class itself.
is it any difference from TR? they are reliable on stealth but they lose it upon taking and dealing damage with no way to recharge it back without shadow strike.
would you like an unstoppable like that? maybe related to an encounter called shadow-unstoppable?
it can even refill out of combat for what it matters.
And what about HRs and their damage? isnt as low as your base damage without ways to improve it via stacks or what so ever?
"but they have got 6 encounter" .. how many of them actually do something?
"sprint is bad"
yes... it may be bad... until you realize that the class that share your same weakness base damage wise and tool to survive wise has 6 fake dodges that do nothing. Want to trade?
"mod 6 brought us nothing as solutions for our complains"
with all the respect....mod 6 feedback thread were 100 pages of a conversation between 3 players.
you, cionko1, teribad. every post of your was the same thing spammed 2-3 times a day. Every time the same post with little changes. Btw i like you aryoux, i always read everything you write.. its my opinion on that particular feedback thread.
Conclusions of what you have got:
-increased weapon damage.
-hp temp scaling with damage bonus [and you have a little bit of bonus damage dont you?]
-hp temp now always stay [ a little bit different from when one just waited for your unstoppable to finish]
-halved stacks on distroyer capstone.
-increased damage on encounters on unstoppable.
-removed at will damage depression during unstoppable...which now allows to strike for ridicolous damage with sure strike.
-hidden dagger bonus damage
-scar feat, which is basically another normal negation on top the transcendent one.
what i actually see in mod 6:
- HR, SW and many CWs stands no chances vs gwf.
- gwf is the one able to abuse avalance more than others.
- people losing 70k hp in perfect negation from ibs.
- a gwf which is not so easy to bring down in few words especially since they fixed fire wheel.
PS. yes gf can do crazy damages with no particular condition.
YES its wrong too.. much wrong. but they do have anything else expect those in their kit to kill people.
teribad...cionko1....and you romanporter...do not answer to this...just pls.
- HR, SW and many CWs stands no chances vs gwf.
- gwf is the one able to abuse avalance more than others.
- people losing 70k hp in perfect negation from ibs.
- a gwf which is not so easy to bring down in few words especially since they fixed fire wheel.
Well actually many HRs CAN stand a 1v1 chance easily with a GWF and I would even argue their utility they bring in the form of CC is next to none. I have 1v1d many HRs won some and lost some. Their "perma root" build is just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and it actually just makes PUGs quit PVP cause they cant even play against it.
CWs - we have MANY in our guild that have 1v1d all the "best" GWFs in the game. Ill take myself out of this since I dont want egos involved but many respect Sobek as a good GWF. I know I respect his skill and GWF, and even he lost 10x in a row against one of our CWs. So if you are a SKILLED CW with the SAME gear as a BIS GWF then the GWF literally stands ZERO chance.
Onto SW - Their biggest issue right now is Avalanche. This needs to be fixed ASAP as SWs just kill themselves on it. Once this is fixed they probably STILL wont be able to beat many classes 1v1 but thats mainly due to their crappy Shift mechanic. If it were up to me, they would be untargetable during shift - like a TR using BB - which would not give them "iframes" per-se but atleast give them something "akin" to it - although DoTs could still eat at them during this.
So only really ONE of those classes is poor right now (SW) and that has nothing to do with the GWF. An SW will lose 1v1 to nearly ANY other class.
"GWF is able to use avalanche" - This again I made a thread about. This needs to be fixed its a broken boon that does WAYYYY too much damage. Either the stacks need to be like "60" - just like that other boon, forget the name. Or they need to put a 60 sec ICD on it so once it procs it cant for another minnute. This makes this a moot point. Also Paladins, HRs, GFs, DCs can utilize this JUST as well as GWFs (maybe not QUITE HRs but they are close). Plus noone "focuses" the GWFs anyways so I would argue a class that DOES get focused actually gets much more benefit from this. Try an OP for instance on a node, how much of their damage comes from this?!
- People losing 70k on IBS? Bull****. Only against very very bad PUGs without tenacity. I run ACT on a TON of my matches. Against a recent CS game my HIGHEST IBS was like ~30k (so was Sobeks BTW). This is the point. The damage POTENTIAL is too high but the "average" damage is too low, its too unreliable which creates the MIS-perception that I have stated, against PUGS/Lower geared players/Players that facetank a GWF - the GWF seems like a god amongst mortals. In a Top Tier PVP session a GWF is ONLY feared when he has wheel+daily+IBS+Stacks AND is attacking WITH another player like a CW or HR that has CC. Without that a GWF cant kill MOST classes 1v1 and as I have stated the damage is too variable and most often you will deal <30-40k IBS on good players.
- a gwf which is not so easy to bring down in few words especially since they fixed fire wheel. I disagree here as well. Its actually fairly easy to bring one down. One of the easier classes to burst down actually since we have no iframes. Not only that but when a GWF DOES get attacked it prevents them from building up stacks. Against a CW or DC or TR or HR, OP or even GFs they ALL have things that interrupt your "stacking" and if you stop attacking for 1-2 seconds youll lose a TON of your damage buffs from DEstroyer stacks. Not just that, but as a GWF you cant even kill them 1 on 1 unless they dont have ANY clue how to play against a GWF. If they do, they just dodge you, interrupt your stacking. Use iframes or just out heal out immune your damage. Dont forget that Fire Wheel nerf actually hurt GWFs MAYBE the worst since that was the only way we could really kill someone - save up ALL our damage stacks, save our daily, save our IBS and pop wheel and unload EVERYTHING on someone to have a CHANCE To kill them - if we didnt get interrupted midway through that setup. What happens if we do get interrupted? We wait ~40 seconds to try it again when wheel is back up. GWFs dont have any self healing. So we have to rely on lifesteal overstacking at the cost of other stats, where other classes (like HR or CW for instance) get feats that give lifesteal. Or DC/OP that cant be killed/self-heal. Other classes have by FAR better "longevity" in fights than a GWF via their sustainability.
So, as I have stated. What needs to happen? The TOTAL damage possible needs to be nerfed but THEN the "average expected damage" needs to be brought up. This can be accomplished MANY ways. This thread was MY suggestions on how this could happen.
I would even be in favor of ONE simple fix: Remove the 3.5% per stack bonus on focused destroyer but chance the % chance to apply a stack to 100%. That would be a START. But this also doesnt address Sentinels being worthless along with Instigators. OR the fact that its still "damage stacking". So the NEXT change I would suggest, so basically TWO changes that would be necessary:
1) Increased base damage at the expense of hidden daggers buff (for a net zero impact to damage - and actually a LOSS to burst damage since hidden daggers buff stacks).
2) As I have said above. Make Destroyer (feat) LESS of a bonus damage but more consistent. removal of 3.5% damage per stack on the feat drops its damage bonus by over 10%. I would even be in favor of a nerf on the damage per stack as well as long as the chance to apply was 100% and/or the duration of stacks was increased.
This would actually NERF the max damage AND the crazy PVE damage but make PVP a much more consistent experience and MUCH less frustrating for GWFs everywhere without any REAL impact.
It's the exact, same old story as module 4-5 intimidation builds.
Guys pick up some BiS whale and say "see? GWF is perfectly fine"
Play one yourself and see.
Lostamauth set
Wheel
Negation
Are broken OP.
add 20-25% LS chance only BiS whales can achieve.
Now, GWF class is badly designed. Base survivability sucks, it get stronger when he's half dead. Literally. You need stacks to build up, to build up stacks you need to go unstoppable first, to go unstoppable you need to lose a huge chunk of HP. Regular GWFs can go unstoppable a couple of times in a fight vs equally geared enemy because determination gain makes unstoppable basically the worst mechanic of them all. You lose a good portion of HPs, and for that you are basically just able to have 4-8 seconds to hurry and try to build 10 stacks of damage buff and get some temp HP.
I say some cause here is the first lol mechanic: your temp HPs from unstoppable are buffed by damage buff but...you need to go unstoppable to build up said damage buff. Which means the first time you go unstoppable, your temp HPs suck.
GWF gets strong after a while. Before that, he sucks. Damage sucks, survivability sucks. After he goes unstoppable and build up all damage stacks and start building serious temp HP, he gets strong. At that point, he is usually half dead.
Now the only advantage he has over other opponents is he can deal more damage, but all our encounters are skillshots. FLS, IBS, flourish, even dagger, restoring strike, takedown. They don't have auto-aim, they need specific aiming and timing or they fail. SS is melee range and requires the gwf to constantly chase the opponent, stop, hit in melee range. All the hits require said timing and aiming skills and if you do it wrong, they crush on immunities or damage resistances and are affected by all the above. Our DR can be debuffed and pierced, so our supposed tankyness comes mainly from the unstoppable temp HPs.
Compare it to auto-lock ranged stuff, passive damage procs, passive piercing damage, passive perma stun/daze from feats exc...
Why ayroux build works so well? In few words: at BiS level TNegation + Tfey AoE manage to boost your flat DR and increase your survivability so much that the GWF can actually get to his max buffed stat and fight while not being half dead. Also, high LS chance allows the GWF to max benefit from his very high damage to recover HP and go unstoppable more.
Regular GWFs cannot do that to that level.
Regular CWs, TRs, paladins, DCs, have their efficiency coming from feats and powers and mechanics, not gear.
GWF efficiency scales better, but with gear only cause feats and mechanics plain underperform compared to other classes.
Also, GWF is a more proactive class with no passive piercing damage or passive damage proc or passive DR on separate layer.
We have CC immunity advantage BUT again, you need to perfectly time and dose your sprint to both close gaps and defend or you end up with no stamina and our stamina regeneration is the slowest, where TRs can spam their rolls, for example.
GF is in a slightly better shape cause shield and high burst damage allows them, if they are skilled at keeping their guard up, to counter the incoming damage and don't have to lose HP to deal damage.
But still, if you compare mechanics to TR, DC, CW, they are clunky and unreliable.
TBH, players only looking at BiS players to gauge the efficiency of GWF class is the reason why feedbacks always turned the class into some gear-hungry freak.
What basically saves the class is smart build, boons pick up and being quite skilled and tight at playing.
It's high risk-high reward class with a huge appetite for gear.
Well the game can be balanced for the maximum a class can do or they can make a hypothetical average for every class and balance for that intermediate level of gear but something tells me things get real messy up the line if they try that. You know, presuming they think about it that much.
I think he's probably understating the effectiveness of gear for some classes quite a bit even assuming everyone has the 4 piece pvp gear set. Gear has always been the major factor in pvp and its always been totally silly that they never did anything about it. Its the obvious reason the vast majority will only go near it if the rewards are high enough and they can just sit at the campfire
Well the game can be balanced for the maximum a class can do or they can make a hypothetical average for every class and balance for that intermediate level of gear but something tells me things get real messy up the line if they try that. You know, presuming they think about it that much.
Up until this point I have yet to ONCE see balance designed about "max" or "top tier" builds. This is PART of what I think the problem is. The testers (I have played against their QA team as well as the DEVs themself) and its been proven over and over they dont know how to play the classes.
So what I strongly suspect happens. They take a GWF, take (insert class here) with some random mix-matched build, and against a player who DOESNT know how to skillfully avoid or keep a GWF "at bay" or keep him "unable to build stacks" and as I have said, the GWF seems fine or maybe even too strong.
So they think its "WAI" or "in an ok spot".
I think the PRIMARY culprit of this "misconception" IS the stacking system.
This is why i proposed the changes I have. Less reliance on that stacking system, which creates a more normalized experience regardless of what type of player you are fighting.
This is why I keep saying you need to balance around top "tier" players/builds which will naturally retain balance at lower levels as well. When you try and balance based on "lower levels of gear" when you scale things up, it creates a mess.
A PERFECT example is module 4 intimidation. When it FIRST came out it was 50% of your power. Through MY OWN posts about it along with my personal PMs to the DEVs it was toned back down. 50% of power was probably tested on lower tier players where it wasnt THAT great but an "ok tanking ability". Put it on a BIS GWF with 12k+ Power though... It would 1 shot players. Even at 35% it still two shot players when it landed.
If it were initially balanced around top tier players it could have easily been designed differently. Same with things like Shocking Exec. At lower "tiers" im sure it worked fine. But get a TR that stacks the PVP set bonus and/or just tons of Power and it USED to not be uncommon to get 1 shot from 100% with a Shocking exec. Balanced? NO.
So the GWF issue is NOT a surprise to me. It seems "balanced" from the perspective of lower tier, opponents try and face tank. To them GWF is a high damage class. But when you play against GOOD players who can EASILY negate your ability to gain damage bonuses, it becomes VERY frustrating and causes a disconnect in the "idea" or "purpose" of the class and its function, and reality.
70k ibs oh god... no wonder they call u Pug Arcana in my guild lol.
I asked you to not comment. You are a no one noone knows where you can from. I do f play since 2 years. Never saw you. I may be a bad player? Come try.
Well the game can be balanced for the maximum a class can do or they can make a hypothetical average for every class and balance for that intermediate level of gear but something tells me things get real messy up the line if they try that. You know, presuming they think about it that much.
I think he's probably understating the effectiveness of gear for some classes quite a bit even assuming everyone has the 4 piece pvp gear set. Gear has always been the major factor in pvp and its always been totally silly that they never did anything about it. Its the obvious reason the vast majority will only go near it if the rewards are high enough and they can just sit at the campfire
That another point i do feel buffing average gwfs while keeping balance will just result in a gwf nerf at bis level which aryoux rapresents
Well the game can be balanced for the maximum a class can do or they can make a hypothetical average for every class and balance for that intermediate level of gear but something tells me things get real messy up the line if they try that. You know, presuming they think about it that much.
I think he's probably understating the effectiveness of gear for some classes quite a bit even assuming everyone has the 4 piece pvp gear set. Gear has always been the major factor in pvp and its always been totally silly that they never did anything about it. Its the obvious reason the vast majority will only go near it if the rewards are high enough and they can just sit at the campfire
That another point i do feel buffing average gwfs while keeping balance will just result in a gwf nerf at bis level which aryoux rapresents
It all depends how its done. This is why ME ("BIS level GWF") is presenting this. Because I am looking from the top down. I am looking at "why do I dominate PUG games and go 33-0 in those matches but at higher tier pvp or in 1v1s seem so helpless"
This is why its important to take perspective and feedback from the top tier players because they will tell you how to make it a fair adjustment.
I think I presented very fair prespective here and if you have followed my posts you know the LAST thing I want is module 3 GWF again. I was OPPOSED to module 3 changed before they even happened. I was opposed to tenebrous back in the day and when it resurfaced here mod 6. I was opposed to emblem etc.
Again it ALL boils back down to destroyer damage stacks, dagger stacks, mark damage stacks. Those are the 3 KEY areas that need adjusting.
So to fix it?
Destroyer damage stacks - make them less "overall damage" but much easier to get up. Honestly I would set a "target" at 25% damage bonus max feated here. This currently provides something like 46% so it would be a NERF, but allowing the stacks to last maybe 5-6 seconds and have 100% chance to apply would make it much more attractive.
Dagger Stacks - this needs to be added to our base damage. If you spam it 3x immediately youll get 120% damage bonus. Think about THAT.... Or if I use it 2x before a big daily... +80% damage bonus?! I think a 40%ISH base increase (or maybe 30% - needs to be tested) would be VERY well received and again "even out" those highs versus lows (no stacks of Daggers compared to 3 stacks).
Then looking at ALL the damage Mark provides: Mark = 20%, Powerful challenge = 15%, and Combat Adv = ~12% (with CAB). So HERE the start would be remove Powerful Challenge and add that to Strength. I would honestly ADDITIONALLY remove the 20% mark damage (both on GF and GWF tbh) and then look at maybe adding THAT 20% to base damage, or add that to other areas... What this means is Mark ONLY grants combat advantage which IS a damage boost, but much less an impact now than being "forced" to rely on mark.
I completely agree with you but I don't think your fixes do much for the entire class. But I do think it opens up the potential to fix a few of the issues posed to Sents and Instigators that can allow for a fix without giving Destroyers the Godmode button.
I have a proposition for you and it involves playing the game this weekend.
I completely agree with you but I don't think your fixes do much for the entire class. But I do think it opens up the potential to fix a few of the issues posed to Sents and Instigators that can allow for a fix without giving Destroyers the Godmode button.
I have a proposition for you and it involves playing the game this weekend.
Yup - it doesnt fix the entire class but a 30-40% increase in BASE damage helps all specs, allows ALL GWFs able to slot a different encounter than Daggers and worry about stacking that.
It DOES alleviate the destroyer path specifically which THEN leaves room to adjust the others.
The main reason I didnt start posting "buffs" for Sents and Instigators (thats what they need) is because then it comes across as a "BUFF ME" thread and as you have seen here already people just jump on the first sign they get to post "GWFs are fine in PVe and wreck everything!!!! OMGEEEEE nerf!" Eventhough they dont understand.
One of my suggestions was around Battle Fury as well being a great utility encounter (like GFs ITF) this too would be a great addition to Sents/Insti since it would buff damage more and last longer (possible a good replacement for daggers since its not needed anymore).
Just provides more options. Overall in order for the CLASS to be fixed they need to first fix/tone down DEstroyer. Well, if ALL they do is tone down destroyer without fixing the stack issue first itll just nerf an already questionable class to the ground.
So step 1 is "adjust destroyer" then step 2 can be "buff insti and Sent" which would help fix the class as a whole.
Lost as to what you mean here, I will actually be camping this weekend and unable to play. Maybe another time?
Sure. Essentially, I would like to roll another Sentinel (You Instigator), twink him out a bit and level him 1-60 to find out where the gaps are and how they can be mitigated.
Then do the maths and turn that into actual fix-action for endgame. Essentially file a report with the Cryptic Developer team as to our findings.
Lost as to what you mean here, I will actually be camping this weekend and unable to play. Maybe another time?
Sure. Essentially, I would like to roll another Sentinel (You Instigator), twink him out a bit and level him 1-60 to find out where the gaps are and how they can be mitigated.
Then do the maths and turn that into actual fix-action for endgame. Essentially file a report with the Cryptic Developer team as to our findings.
Well I have a lvl 63 GWF (my initial GWF). We could always just respec but I have done extensive testing on the PTR (took me HOURS just to delete all my copies) and I can already tell you some of the issues.
1-60 is a VASTLY different game than 61+. For instance, I used to be able to tank dungeons as a Sent @ lvl 60. My Sent cant even THINK about tanking current dungeons.
So im not sure exactly what you hope to accomplish there.
Instigators:
Lack utility, lack damage, lack tankiness. IMO this "path" would be more focused on utility and control, being LESS tanky than a sent and deal less damage than a destroyer but have more utility. this is clear from feats that bonus mighty leap, not so fast, punishing charge etc.
The issue is ALL those powers are laughable lack luster and the Instigator path doesnt add anything that you cant get in spades in destroyer.
Solutions: Buff the **** out of those feats to make those abilities amazing. Add some addtl control effects deeper in the path and/or more tankiness (Id look at amazing stamina refill and added stuns IMO - like a stun on punishing charge + more damage on that feat would be a VERY fun GWF).
Sentinel:
Deal literally ZERO damage - right up there next to a Paladin its that bad and whats worse they cant tank for **** because unstoppable is on the same layer of DR as the rest meaning that amazing DR from Unstop only puts you at the "cap" which you can still get 2 shot through... Also its not "on command" so you have to take damage first to pop it.
Also, how can you hold threat if you deal no damage? The main issues are the lack of "tankiness" this entire tree has.
Solutions: Unstop DR on its own layer and Sents (all GWFs really) need a more reliable access to unstoppable. My suggestion was all GWFs gain deter from damage dealt as well - id honestly even be more in favor of giving all GWFs a "passive deter gain" while in combat even. Similar to "steadfast determination" which WOULD allow Sents to be a little more proactive with Unstoppable. The other suggestion is to allow "sprint" to be used as a "parry stance" while standing still which also gives more "proactive DR" maybe consumes less stamina. So you could have several options there.
So, I mean, im not sure whats left to test. I can already tell you, I can go on the PTR and respec and show you... I mean you have GWFs here that have spent hundred and hundreds of hours (if not thousands) playing GWFs since beta (like me) and have tested, tested, and re-tested possible builds.
Like I have said before though, if you make these changes above (base damage buff, parry stance, Unstoppable DR on its own layer) it just makes destroyer that much stronger compared to other GWFs. So you need to tone down destroyer, fix the "inconsistencies" there (which this thread is mainly about) which THEN allows you to adjust instigator and sentinel.
Comments
In mod6 GWFs already has:
1) best weapon dmg in the game by far.
2) best stackable buffs in the game.
3) Often see 500k-1mill IBS, IS and Crescendo from medium geared GWFs. Doing 1:2 dmg in Tiamat and great dmg in dungeons compared to other classes.
If this is some kind of "pvp-only" request to kill more efficiently with base dmg rather than stacked dmg then put it in the pvp section!
Also - I dont like these changes. GWF is already way over the top if it comes to PvE damage, rising it even more to balance PvP is not the way to go. Looking from PvE perspective its like saying:"Dungeon mobs and bosses deal insane damage to tanks, buff OP shield to 90% DR, give them 100% more temp hp and healing, longer control duration and increase their shields value by 50%". How would you react to that as PvP player?
Because no matter what a GWF does... he's gonna take hits. Because he's fighting the enemy up close and personal. So when some hexer blasts me for 85k damage when I only have 65k HP, there's something incredibly broken with the system.
Im pretty sure many would argue about the "GWF is fine damage wise" since they are literally in other bracket of dps measurement
Anyway that is what tanks/controllers/debuffers are for - so you dont get hit
Heck... GWF is designed to take hits. You can't effectively activate Unstoppable unless you take a few hits. But when you can't survive a single hit, you can't use Unstoppable, making you essentially a waste of space.
Doesnt your destroyer tree give you unstoppable after a few hits you deal? I think that is how GWFs are designed, they start from scratch (which, on a side note, is kind of top dps for other classes) but as fight goes on they become significantly more powerful
/Edit: Nevermind the rest, I dont want this discussion to be 100000th thread of "dungeons are too hard", there are more than enough of them :P
I'm not joking when I said that trash guy hit me with an instant undodgeable blow that dealt more damage than I had HP. And it kept happening again and again. Destroyers are always perfectly viable by stacking strength and dex before... but now it seems that stat config is no longer viable since you no longer have enough HP to survive a single hit.
Also I recall my damage resistance was around 30-40% prior to mod 6... and now it's like 20%. That's pretty dumb, I'm wearing scale, not cloth.
the main point is: you need think about what macjae say and try do a arrangement because he is 100% correct (that guy too).
the ideal is a total rework until all the trees be +/- desiderable. but is far more easy (and less traumatic) in short term work a single tree for a specific demand.
and dont forget; if no one try bargain sentinels/intimidation by some general advantages, maybe we have 2 strong trees today.
Oh.
FOTM builds. Explains a bit.
Hi, I'm just passing by to say that this statement is wrong. I'm using Daring Shout for the mark bonus + CA bonus + Powerful Challenge (because I don't longer need crit % from Insti) AND Weapon Master's Strike. Slotting DS instead of another offensive encounter is much more rewarding for a SM. Please, don't assume things.
Thanks for Posting, but you clearly dont play a GWF or just dont know what you dont know.
1) Weapon damage means NOTHING if all your BASE damage encounter (the formula for damage) is 50% LOWER than everyone else.
So lets pretend (just for kicks) the formula is X-X base damage * Weapon damage X-X. So yes, GWFs have 2k+ Weapondamage where everyone else has 1600 ish but if the GWF "BASE" damage is (1-1) * (1772-2166) means the "base damage" for the ability would then be 1,772-2,166
however a GF for example could have 1,400 - 1,600 or w.e but if their BASE is 1.5 do the math...
1.5-1.5 * 1400-1600 that means = 2,100 - 2,400
MEANING GFs have a BIGGER base damage eventhough they have LESS base damage.
2) Best stackable buffs in the game - THIS IS MY POINT ONLY WHEN YOU CAN STACK THEM!!! When you CANT stack them you deal NO damage.
3) This is PVE and with MASSIVE buffs. PVE is NOT the issue. I think PVE damage is TOO MUCH. Read the damn posts dude. Im advocating for LESS "max" damage but easier time to get stacks.
Yeah I actually read your post in detail last night and saw this. Didnt take the time to edit because when I saw this today there were too many comments now LOL.
This makes no sense... I advocate for an overall damage reduction but an easier time of obtaining stacks which alleviates PVE concerns and FIXES the GWF for PVP - actually tones them down a bit and you dont like it?
gwfs do have right saying that the class is related to unstoppable to take stacks and do crazy damages.
Some gwfs do like it, some other dont.
this particular gwf is asking for more damage, which can be welcomed at the cost of losing all other crazy stack mechanics. Hence more easy and reliable damage, in the end it must be less damage and not only a bit less.
Unstoppable counter the class itself.
is it any difference from TR? they are reliable on stealth but they lose it upon taking and dealing damage with no way to recharge it back without shadow strike.
would you like an unstoppable like that? maybe related to an encounter called shadow-unstoppable?
it can even refill out of combat for what it matters.
And what about HRs and their damage? isnt as low as your base damage without ways to improve it via stacks or what so ever?
"but they have got 6 encounter" .. how many of them actually do something?
"sprint is bad"
yes... it may be bad... until you realize that the class that share your same weakness base damage wise and tool to survive wise has 6 fake dodges that do nothing. Want to trade?
"mod 6 brought us nothing as solutions for our complains"
with all the respect....mod 6 feedback thread were 100 pages of a conversation between 3 players.
you, cionko1, teribad. every post of your was the same thing spammed 2-3 times a day. Every time the same post with little changes. Btw i like you aryoux, i always read everything you write.. its my opinion on that particular feedback thread.
Conclusions of what you have got:
-increased weapon damage.
-hp temp scaling with damage bonus [and you have a little bit of bonus damage dont you?]
-hp temp now always stay [ a little bit different from when one just waited for your unstoppable to finish]
-halved stacks on distroyer capstone.
-increased damage on encounters on unstoppable.
-removed at will damage depression during unstoppable...which now allows to strike for ridicolous damage with sure strike.
-hidden dagger bonus damage
-scar feat, which is basically another normal negation on top the transcendent one.
what i actually see in mod 6:
- HR, SW and many CWs stands no chances vs gwf.
- gwf is the one able to abuse avalance more than others.
- people losing 70k hp in perfect negation from ibs.
- a gwf which is not so easy to bring down in few words especially since they fixed fire wheel.
PS. yes gf can do crazy damages with no particular condition.
YES its wrong too.. much wrong. but they do have anything else expect those in their kit to kill people.
teribad...cionko1....and you romanporter...do not answer to this...just pls.
Well actually many HRs CAN stand a 1v1 chance easily with a GWF and I would even argue their utility they bring in the form of CC is next to none. I have 1v1d many HRs won some and lost some. Their "perma root" build is just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and it actually just makes PUGs quit PVP cause they cant even play against it.
CWs - we have MANY in our guild that have 1v1d all the "best" GWFs in the game. Ill take myself out of this since I dont want egos involved but many respect Sobek as a good GWF. I know I respect his skill and GWF, and even he lost 10x in a row against one of our CWs. So if you are a SKILLED CW with the SAME gear as a BIS GWF then the GWF literally stands ZERO chance.
Onto SW - Their biggest issue right now is Avalanche. This needs to be fixed ASAP as SWs just kill themselves on it. Once this is fixed they probably STILL wont be able to beat many classes 1v1 but thats mainly due to their crappy Shift mechanic. If it were up to me, they would be untargetable during shift - like a TR using BB - which would not give them "iframes" per-se but atleast give them something "akin" to it - although DoTs could still eat at them during this.
So only really ONE of those classes is poor right now (SW) and that has nothing to do with the GWF. An SW will lose 1v1 to nearly ANY other class.
"GWF is able to use avalanche" - This again I made a thread about. This needs to be fixed its a broken boon that does WAYYYY too much damage. Either the stacks need to be like "60" - just like that other boon, forget the name. Or they need to put a 60 sec ICD on it so once it procs it cant for another minnute. This makes this a moot point. Also Paladins, HRs, GFs, DCs can utilize this JUST as well as GWFs (maybe not QUITE HRs but they are close). Plus noone "focuses" the GWFs anyways so I would argue a class that DOES get focused actually gets much more benefit from this. Try an OP for instance on a node, how much of their damage comes from this?!
- People losing 70k on IBS? Bull****. Only against very very bad PUGs without tenacity. I run ACT on a TON of my matches. Against a recent CS game my HIGHEST IBS was like ~30k (so was Sobeks BTW). This is the point. The damage POTENTIAL is too high but the "average" damage is too low, its too unreliable which creates the MIS-perception that I have stated, against PUGS/Lower geared players/Players that facetank a GWF - the GWF seems like a god amongst mortals. In a Top Tier PVP session a GWF is ONLY feared when he has wheel+daily+IBS+Stacks AND is attacking WITH another player like a CW or HR that has CC. Without that a GWF cant kill MOST classes 1v1 and as I have stated the damage is too variable and most often you will deal <30-40k IBS on good players.
- a gwf which is not so easy to bring down in few words especially since they fixed fire wheel. I disagree here as well. Its actually fairly easy to bring one down. One of the easier classes to burst down actually since we have no iframes. Not only that but when a GWF DOES get attacked it prevents them from building up stacks. Against a CW or DC or TR or HR, OP or even GFs they ALL have things that interrupt your "stacking" and if you stop attacking for 1-2 seconds youll lose a TON of your damage buffs from DEstroyer stacks. Not just that, but as a GWF you cant even kill them 1 on 1 unless they dont have ANY clue how to play against a GWF. If they do, they just dodge you, interrupt your stacking. Use iframes or just out heal out immune your damage. Dont forget that Fire Wheel nerf actually hurt GWFs MAYBE the worst since that was the only way we could really kill someone - save up ALL our damage stacks, save our daily, save our IBS and pop wheel and unload EVERYTHING on someone to have a CHANCE To kill them - if we didnt get interrupted midway through that setup. What happens if we do get interrupted? We wait ~40 seconds to try it again when wheel is back up. GWFs dont have any self healing. So we have to rely on lifesteal overstacking at the cost of other stats, where other classes (like HR or CW for instance) get feats that give lifesteal. Or DC/OP that cant be killed/self-heal. Other classes have by FAR better "longevity" in fights than a GWF via their sustainability.
So, as I have stated. What needs to happen? The TOTAL damage possible needs to be nerfed but THEN the "average expected damage" needs to be brought up. This can be accomplished MANY ways. This thread was MY suggestions on how this could happen.
I would even be in favor of ONE simple fix: Remove the 3.5% per stack bonus on focused destroyer but chance the % chance to apply a stack to 100%. That would be a START. But this also doesnt address Sentinels being worthless along with Instigators. OR the fact that its still "damage stacking". So the NEXT change I would suggest, so basically TWO changes that would be necessary:
1) Increased base damage at the expense of hidden daggers buff (for a net zero impact to damage - and actually a LOSS to burst damage since hidden daggers buff stacks).
2) As I have said above. Make Destroyer (feat) LESS of a bonus damage but more consistent. removal of 3.5% damage per stack on the feat drops its damage bonus by over 10%. I would even be in favor of a nerf on the damage per stack as well as long as the chance to apply was 100% and/or the duration of stacks was increased.
This would actually NERF the max damage AND the crazy PVE damage but make PVP a much more consistent experience and MUCH less frustrating for GWFs everywhere without any REAL impact.
I think he's probably understating the effectiveness of gear for some classes quite a bit even assuming everyone has the 4 piece pvp gear set. Gear has always been the major factor in pvp and its always been totally silly that they never did anything about it. Its the obvious reason the vast majority will only go near it if the rewards are high enough and they can just sit at the campfire
Up until this point I have yet to ONCE see balance designed about "max" or "top tier" builds. This is PART of what I think the problem is. The testers (I have played against their QA team as well as the DEVs themself) and its been proven over and over they dont know how to play the classes.
So what I strongly suspect happens. They take a GWF, take (insert class here) with some random mix-matched build, and against a player who DOESNT know how to skillfully avoid or keep a GWF "at bay" or keep him "unable to build stacks" and as I have said, the GWF seems fine or maybe even too strong.
So they think its "WAI" or "in an ok spot".
I think the PRIMARY culprit of this "misconception" IS the stacking system.
This is why i proposed the changes I have. Less reliance on that stacking system, which creates a more normalized experience regardless of what type of player you are fighting.
This is why I keep saying you need to balance around top "tier" players/builds which will naturally retain balance at lower levels as well. When you try and balance based on "lower levels of gear" when you scale things up, it creates a mess.
A PERFECT example is module 4 intimidation. When it FIRST came out it was 50% of your power. Through MY OWN posts about it along with my personal PMs to the DEVs it was toned back down. 50% of power was probably tested on lower tier players where it wasnt THAT great but an "ok tanking ability". Put it on a BIS GWF with 12k+ Power though... It would 1 shot players. Even at 35% it still two shot players when it landed.
If it were initially balanced around top tier players it could have easily been designed differently. Same with things like Shocking Exec. At lower "tiers" im sure it worked fine. But get a TR that stacks the PVP set bonus and/or just tons of Power and it USED to not be uncommon to get 1 shot from 100% with a Shocking exec. Balanced? NO.
So the GWF issue is NOT a surprise to me. It seems "balanced" from the perspective of lower tier, opponents try and face tank. To them GWF is a high damage class. But when you play against GOOD players who can EASILY negate your ability to gain damage bonuses, it becomes VERY frustrating and causes a disconnect in the "idea" or "purpose" of the class and its function, and reality.
That another point i do feel buffing average gwfs while keeping balance will just result in a gwf nerf at bis level which aryoux rapresents
It all depends how its done. This is why ME ("BIS level GWF") is presenting this. Because I am looking from the top down. I am looking at "why do I dominate PUG games and go 33-0 in those matches but at higher tier pvp or in 1v1s seem so helpless"
This is why its important to take perspective and feedback from the top tier players because they will tell you how to make it a fair adjustment.
I think I presented very fair prespective here and if you have followed my posts you know the LAST thing I want is module 3 GWF again. I was OPPOSED to module 3 changed before they even happened. I was opposed to tenebrous back in the day and when it resurfaced here mod 6. I was opposed to emblem etc.
Again it ALL boils back down to destroyer damage stacks, dagger stacks, mark damage stacks. Those are the 3 KEY areas that need adjusting.
So to fix it?
Destroyer damage stacks - make them less "overall damage" but much easier to get up. Honestly I would set a "target" at 25% damage bonus max feated here. This currently provides something like 46% so it would be a NERF, but allowing the stacks to last maybe 5-6 seconds and have 100% chance to apply would make it much more attractive.
Dagger Stacks - this needs to be added to our base damage. If you spam it 3x immediately youll get 120% damage bonus. Think about THAT.... Or if I use it 2x before a big daily... +80% damage bonus?! I think a 40%ISH base increase (or maybe 30% - needs to be tested) would be VERY well received and again "even out" those highs versus lows (no stacks of Daggers compared to 3 stacks).
Then looking at ALL the damage Mark provides: Mark = 20%, Powerful challenge = 15%, and Combat Adv = ~12% (with CAB). So HERE the start would be remove Powerful Challenge and add that to Strength. I would honestly ADDITIONALLY remove the 20% mark damage (both on GF and GWF tbh) and then look at maybe adding THAT 20% to base damage, or add that to other areas... What this means is Mark ONLY grants combat advantage which IS a damage boost, but much less an impact now than being "forced" to rely on mark.
I completely agree with you but I don't think your fixes do much for the entire class. But I do think it opens up the potential to fix a few of the issues posed to Sents and Instigators that can allow for a fix without giving Destroyers the Godmode button.
I have a proposition for you and it involves playing the game this weekend.
Yup - it doesnt fix the entire class but a 30-40% increase in BASE damage helps all specs, allows ALL GWFs able to slot a different encounter than Daggers and worry about stacking that.
It DOES alleviate the destroyer path specifically which THEN leaves room to adjust the others.
The main reason I didnt start posting "buffs" for Sents and Instigators (thats what they need) is because then it comes across as a "BUFF ME" thread and as you have seen here already people just jump on the first sign they get to post "GWFs are fine in PVe and wreck everything!!!! OMGEEEEE nerf!" Eventhough they dont understand.
One of my suggestions was around Battle Fury as well being a great utility encounter (like GFs ITF) this too would be a great addition to Sents/Insti since it would buff damage more and last longer (possible a good replacement for daggers since its not needed anymore).
Just provides more options. Overall in order for the CLASS to be fixed they need to first fix/tone down DEstroyer. Well, if ALL they do is tone down destroyer without fixing the stack issue first itll just nerf an already questionable class to the ground.
So step 1 is "adjust destroyer" then step 2 can be "buff insti and Sent" which would help fix the class as a whole.
Sure. Essentially, I would like to roll another Sentinel (You Instigator), twink him out a bit and level him 1-60 to find out where the gaps are and how they can be mitigated.
Then do the maths and turn that into actual fix-action for endgame. Essentially file a report with the Cryptic Developer team as to our findings.
Well I have a lvl 63 GWF (my initial GWF). We could always just respec but I have done extensive testing on the PTR (took me HOURS just to delete all my copies) and I can already tell you some of the issues.
1-60 is a VASTLY different game than 61+. For instance, I used to be able to tank dungeons as a Sent @ lvl 60. My Sent cant even THINK about tanking current dungeons.
So im not sure exactly what you hope to accomplish there.
Instigators:
Lack utility, lack damage, lack tankiness. IMO this "path" would be more focused on utility and control, being LESS tanky than a sent and deal less damage than a destroyer but have more utility. this is clear from feats that bonus mighty leap, not so fast, punishing charge etc.
The issue is ALL those powers are laughable lack luster and the Instigator path doesnt add anything that you cant get in spades in destroyer.
Solutions: Buff the **** out of those feats to make those abilities amazing. Add some addtl control effects deeper in the path and/or more tankiness (Id look at amazing stamina refill and added stuns IMO - like a stun on punishing charge + more damage on that feat would be a VERY fun GWF).
Sentinel:
Deal literally ZERO damage - right up there next to a Paladin its that bad and whats worse they cant tank for **** because unstoppable is on the same layer of DR as the rest meaning that amazing DR from Unstop only puts you at the "cap" which you can still get 2 shot through... Also its not "on command" so you have to take damage first to pop it.
Also, how can you hold threat if you deal no damage? The main issues are the lack of "tankiness" this entire tree has.
Solutions: Unstop DR on its own layer and Sents (all GWFs really) need a more reliable access to unstoppable. My suggestion was all GWFs gain deter from damage dealt as well - id honestly even be more in favor of giving all GWFs a "passive deter gain" while in combat even. Similar to "steadfast determination" which WOULD allow Sents to be a little more proactive with Unstoppable. The other suggestion is to allow "sprint" to be used as a "parry stance" while standing still which also gives more "proactive DR" maybe consumes less stamina. So you could have several options there.
So, I mean, im not sure whats left to test. I can already tell you, I can go on the PTR and respec and show you... I mean you have GWFs here that have spent hundred and hundreds of hours (if not thousands) playing GWFs since beta (like me) and have tested, tested, and re-tested possible builds.
Like I have said before though, if you make these changes above (base damage buff, parry stance, Unstoppable DR on its own layer) it just makes destroyer that much stronger compared to other GWFs. So you need to tone down destroyer, fix the "inconsistencies" there (which this thread is mainly about) which THEN allows you to adjust instigator and sentinel.