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(GWF Module 6 Feedback) - Can we PLEASE fix the GWF already?!?!
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
Since module 4 GWFs have been in a very very unfortunate position.
Module 3 GWFs needed to be toned down - no doubt about that with all the broken powers (literally broken powers not WAI like Roar) it made for a very nasty class.
ALL the nerfs GWFs have had since then, along with "re-buffs" have CLEARLY CLEARLY put GWFs in a very poor spot as far as how the class is played and how it works. Disclaimer: In PVE this is NOT noticeable since PVE GWFs have a VERY easy time of getting an obtaining stacks, its mainly PVP where the poor class structure shows itself. Also it will become a BIG issue module 6 on Xbox when that comes out since console players are not able to react or navigate as quickly as you can on a computer with a mouse.
What do I refer to? Simple.
The BIGGEST issue with the class is that everything is COUNTER productive to itself and provides ZERO synergy. Its literally a class help together by essentially "bandaids" and rather than fixing the CORE issues of the class anytime the class is hurting they just "bandaid it" more.
I get, they announced GWFs are in a "good" spot for PVE - well we can ALL agree this is in reference to ONLY destroyers since Sentinels cant tank PVE and Instigators are like the red headed step child of the GWF world.
So how do we fix the class without changing PVE Destroyers?! Simple.
What needs to happen is this:
~30-40% INCREASE to base damage across the board to ALL powers/dailies/at wills etc.
However THEN a REMOVAL of the damage bonus on Hidden Daggers (this should have NEVER been there). (Since some players dont know Hidden Daggers gives a 40% STACKABLE damage bonus. So this would be a net neutral effect to damage but make it NOT rely on a sacking AoE encounter power)
Second, Powerful Challenge needs to be REMOVED (15% damage reduction) and in its place, Strength (Ability Score) needs to provide 2% damage bonus AND 2% stamina regen per point over 10 rather than 1%. This is GWFs PRIMARY Stat but is WORSE than its other stats like Con or Dex. Heck even Charisma is almost as good as STR.
(For the most part this too will be about a 'net neutral' damage change).
Next,
Battle Fury - Needs to be changed to provide RUN SPEED rather than Sprint. It also needs to have its Uptime increased to ~8 seconds. It currently doesnt last long enough to be useful for such a HIGH CD that it has. Increasing the uptime will make it a much more useful ability (Think of the GFs 'Into the fray') The big advantage of the run speed is that you can attack with it, versus refill on stamina just means you can run but not attack - again counter productive.... You get a damage boost and refill sprint? So now you have a choice, to run away or try and attack with the damage boost. Makes no sense for how short the damage boost lasts. Increase the duration, the ability STILL has a high CD, Id also up the benefits to allies to maybe 50% (from 25%) to provide some better utility there.
Next, to make SwordMasters somewhat viable, you need to add Mark to Flourish so SMs can have a reasonable way to add Mark to targets for the Combat advantage + 20% damage. I would even go as far as saying some of the "base" abilities a GWF gets should apply a mark, since it encompasses SO much damage bonus.... It really tilts the favor in the IV side of things.
The Next TWO things:
1) ALL GWFs regardless of spec should build determination from dealing damage. Remove this from Destroyer only.
2) Determination gain Needs to NOT be correlated to post DR HP loss and a flat function of PRE-DR damage (you can decrease the amount gained but it needs to be PRE-DR) This is for the primary reason that currently Sprint is "ok" defensively but it hinders determination gain making it counter productive.
Again for the MOST part this ends up with a "similar" amount of damage needed to pop unstoppable however when you DO boost your DR via Sprint, or a DCs AS thats where you will notice you can still gain determination. Ever try and gain determination while in a DC AS? Its VERY hard to do - especially if you havnt already got damage stacks up.
Next:
Focused Destroyer (destroyer Feat) needs to give 100% chance to gain a stack off ANY attack - making this reliable. You can remove the added 3.5% per stack. So this would be a net NERF to damage!!! But much more reliable!!!!!
Next (Instigator Feats):
"Crippling Strike" - is a JOKE for a T5 feat. This needs to be replaced with a NEW feat that: 1) Increases the damage of Grand Fissure and Punishing Charge by 10/20/30/40/50%. Also - it should make Fissure a "version" of Anvil of Doom where it gets a doubled damage bonus against a target given X circumstances. I think it could work well if it was based on the GWFs HP %. Maybe if the GWF is <35% HP it deals double damage to opponents. Fits into the 'role' of instigator?.
Finally:
Unstoppable Damage Resist Needs to be on its OWN layer of "DR" just like CW shield and GF block. This makes the Sentinel Capstone VERY attractive since it would essentially be the same as a GF "block".
These are just some examples.
OVERALL The GWF's reliance on "damage stacking" (Hidden Daggers, Weapon Master, Destroyer(feat), Destroyer (Capstone), Instigator's Vengeance etc) all make for a VERY un-enjoyable play experience. While in "testing" against PVE mobs its easier to keep up those stacks with constant "uptime" in PVP its VERY easy for someone to kite you or heck, a CW repels you and there goes your stacks.... Its just not fun AT ALL to rely SO heavily on such a bad mechanic.
I think you will find these changes wont change the GWF all that much, however it will make the class MUCH more fun to play.
If you notice none of this actually BUFFS the GWF, and my proposition on focused destroyer actually NERFS "max" damage.
I am not opposed to nerfing GWF overall damage in PVE or PVP as long as the "ease" of getting all the crazy damage bonuses is alleviated. That is what causes balance issues in both PVE and PVP. PVE GWFs are the UBER DPS class right now, where as PVP GWFs are not. Why? Damage stacking.
So reduce the overall effect damage bonuses have (nerfing PVE damage a tad) then make them EASIER to get (alleviating the PVP GWF issue). Problem solved.
Module 3 GWFs needed to be toned down - no doubt about that with all the broken powers (literally broken powers not WAI like Roar) it made for a very nasty class.
ALL the nerfs GWFs have had since then, along with "re-buffs" have CLEARLY CLEARLY put GWFs in a very poor spot as far as how the class is played and how it works. Disclaimer: In PVE this is NOT noticeable since PVE GWFs have a VERY easy time of getting an obtaining stacks, its mainly PVP where the poor class structure shows itself. Also it will become a BIG issue module 6 on Xbox when that comes out since console players are not able to react or navigate as quickly as you can on a computer with a mouse.
What do I refer to? Simple.
The BIGGEST issue with the class is that everything is COUNTER productive to itself and provides ZERO synergy. Its literally a class help together by essentially "bandaids" and rather than fixing the CORE issues of the class anytime the class is hurting they just "bandaid it" more.
I get, they announced GWFs are in a "good" spot for PVE - well we can ALL agree this is in reference to ONLY destroyers since Sentinels cant tank PVE and Instigators are like the red headed step child of the GWF world.
So how do we fix the class without changing PVE Destroyers?! Simple.
What needs to happen is this:
~30-40% INCREASE to base damage across the board to ALL powers/dailies/at wills etc.
However THEN a REMOVAL of the damage bonus on Hidden Daggers (this should have NEVER been there). (Since some players dont know Hidden Daggers gives a 40% STACKABLE damage bonus. So this would be a net neutral effect to damage but make it NOT rely on a sacking AoE encounter power)
Second, Powerful Challenge needs to be REMOVED (15% damage reduction) and in its place, Strength (Ability Score) needs to provide 2% damage bonus AND 2% stamina regen per point over 10 rather than 1%. This is GWFs PRIMARY Stat but is WORSE than its other stats like Con or Dex. Heck even Charisma is almost as good as STR.
(For the most part this too will be about a 'net neutral' damage change).
Next,
Battle Fury - Needs to be changed to provide RUN SPEED rather than Sprint. It also needs to have its Uptime increased to ~8 seconds. It currently doesnt last long enough to be useful for such a HIGH CD that it has. Increasing the uptime will make it a much more useful ability (Think of the GFs 'Into the fray') The big advantage of the run speed is that you can attack with it, versus refill on stamina just means you can run but not attack - again counter productive.... You get a damage boost and refill sprint? So now you have a choice, to run away or try and attack with the damage boost. Makes no sense for how short the damage boost lasts. Increase the duration, the ability STILL has a high CD, Id also up the benefits to allies to maybe 50% (from 25%) to provide some better utility there.
Next, to make SwordMasters somewhat viable, you need to add Mark to Flourish so SMs can have a reasonable way to add Mark to targets for the Combat advantage + 20% damage. I would even go as far as saying some of the "base" abilities a GWF gets should apply a mark, since it encompasses SO much damage bonus.... It really tilts the favor in the IV side of things.
The Next TWO things:
1) ALL GWFs regardless of spec should build determination from dealing damage. Remove this from Destroyer only.
2) Determination gain Needs to NOT be correlated to post DR HP loss and a flat function of PRE-DR damage (you can decrease the amount gained but it needs to be PRE-DR) This is for the primary reason that currently Sprint is "ok" defensively but it hinders determination gain making it counter productive.
Again for the MOST part this ends up with a "similar" amount of damage needed to pop unstoppable however when you DO boost your DR via Sprint, or a DCs AS thats where you will notice you can still gain determination. Ever try and gain determination while in a DC AS? Its VERY hard to do - especially if you havnt already got damage stacks up.
Next:
Focused Destroyer (destroyer Feat) needs to give 100% chance to gain a stack off ANY attack - making this reliable. You can remove the added 3.5% per stack. So this would be a net NERF to damage!!! But much more reliable!!!!!
Next (Instigator Feats):
"Crippling Strike" - is a JOKE for a T5 feat. This needs to be replaced with a NEW feat that: 1) Increases the damage of Grand Fissure and Punishing Charge by 10/20/30/40/50%. Also - it should make Fissure a "version" of Anvil of Doom where it gets a doubled damage bonus against a target given X circumstances. I think it could work well if it was based on the GWFs HP %. Maybe if the GWF is <35% HP it deals double damage to opponents. Fits into the 'role' of instigator?.
Finally:
Unstoppable Damage Resist Needs to be on its OWN layer of "DR" just like CW shield and GF block. This makes the Sentinel Capstone VERY attractive since it would essentially be the same as a GF "block".
These are just some examples.
OVERALL The GWF's reliance on "damage stacking" (Hidden Daggers, Weapon Master, Destroyer(feat), Destroyer (Capstone), Instigator's Vengeance etc) all make for a VERY un-enjoyable play experience. While in "testing" against PVE mobs its easier to keep up those stacks with constant "uptime" in PVP its VERY easy for someone to kite you or heck, a CW repels you and there goes your stacks.... Its just not fun AT ALL to rely SO heavily on such a bad mechanic.
I think you will find these changes wont change the GWF all that much, however it will make the class MUCH more fun to play.
If you notice none of this actually BUFFS the GWF, and my proposition on focused destroyer actually NERFS "max" damage.
I am not opposed to nerfing GWF overall damage in PVE or PVP as long as the "ease" of getting all the crazy damage bonuses is alleviated. That is what causes balance issues in both PVE and PVP. PVE GWFs are the UBER DPS class right now, where as PVP GWFs are not. Why? Damage stacking.
So reduce the overall effect damage bonuses have (nerfing PVE damage a tad) then make them EASIER to get (alleviating the PVP GWF issue). Problem solved.
Post edited by ayroux on
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and other stuff buffed to compensate for that, mark feels too restricting
I agree. Mark is FAR too restricting and it encompasses TOO much +damage bonus.
Ideally Mark wouldnt provide ANY damage bonus except maybe just "combat advantage". But again this would require a re-allocation of that +damage bonus to the "BASE" damage of the GWF.
Stacking +dmg bonuses is really just a LAME way to play.
Honestly this wouldnt fix the class it would probably break it more.
If you gave a dodge then it would be a guarantee you would lose Destroyer stacks. Thats honestly the big issue.
Other classes can dodge around, and damage between "blink/roll/dodge etc" However the GWF has to choose between the two, if you stop attacking even just for 1-2 seconds or are CCd out of attacking for 1-2 seconds you lose ALOT of your damage. Daggers buff + Destroyer alone are OVER 100% damage bonus.... Both can be lost EASILY by getting repeled and then trying to attack a target to dodges you 1-2 times. Then you deal MUCH less damage.
It creates balance problems against lower skill players who DONT dodge and allow you to get that damage bonus making the GWF seem overpowered.
Which against GOOD players (like CWs who have <6 second repel) youll NEVER hit them with any solid damage except MAYBE a daily+IBS combo if you are lucky.
It ALL stems from the crappy reliance on damage stacking to deal damage. Contrast this to the GF who presses ITF, gets a BIG damage boost and then can bull charge you for just as much or more as my Average IBS on my GWF. Bull Charge is 8-9 sec CD and LOCKS on the target, gap closes AND prones. And its average damage in a match is equal to my average IBS? That just says something there.
Sure you can see some crazy good IBS crits/hits against non-tenacity targets or lower geared players who dont dodge even once - allowing you to build all your stacks (which doesnt take skill btw). But I would MUCH rather have a more reliable damage system in place for the GWF to have a "middle ground" of sorts which allows for less stacking and I would even take less damage as well if it came with no "stacking" mechanics.
Id be MORE than happy to have ONE encounter to buff damage "Battle Fury" and then TWO encounters to deal damage with - without having to worry about Destroyer Stacks, Dagger Stacks, Mark and making sure you can THEN land a combo without getting CCd.
I swear more than half the time I get my "setup" ready to deal damage, I get Repelled or Sunbursted or smoke bombed away from the target and lose my Dagger stack + Destroyer stacks.
Its just FRUSTRATING and isnt a "Skill" factor. You cant "skill" avoid a Sunburst - sprint has a delay on CC immune plus most of the time we expend our <5 seconds of sprint to CATCH targets rather than being able to use it to avoid CC and if you DO try and sprint to avoid CC most liekly your destroyer stacks fall off because you cant attack and sprint at the same time nor is there really a good "tell" on things like Repel or SB so even if you could sprint to avoid it somehow you would have to just guess....
I assume a lot of this is aimed at pvp rather than pve though? I haven't played my gwf heavily in some time for refinement point reasons so I wouldn't be so naive as to think I know the mechanics better than you but I'll offer some opinions based on the limited amount I know.
Crippling strike is obviously trash. The change you recommend to group assault looks like another damage stacks issue, isn't that what you want to avoid? Maybe split the difference and make it a flat 20%?
Unstoppable doesn't last so long that I would object to sentinels turning into a gf shield for a time but how fast should they gain determination if that's the case? Its one change getting affected by another change. I'd prefer to see the effect of it being a temp gf shield before having it up more often.
I don't know about battle fury because no one used it when I played but I don't know if i like the thought of it in pvp as like being into the fray. Right now the game is run away from the gwf so he can't have his stacks. If he has much better run speed where are you going? I know you want the stack thing to not be such a big thing but if you can't disengage ever but the gwf can if he feels like it. Yeah I dunno about that.
a 40% damage increase on everything for the removal of a 30% buff on one encounter use? How about no? If you without exception cast hidden daggers first its only a 10% buff. PvE damage would go from different ballpark to different planet. I'd happily see hidden daggers nerfed if a utility power got a similar increase.
sorry, you can explain that?
Yes - aimed at PVP.
SM GWFs in PVE are WORSE than IV GWFs in PVE - just saying... IV gets Threat Rush which provides Mark which provides a TON of damage bonus + CA. Now unless you are playing permanently with a GF which can AoE mark + tab mark, then SM will underperform IV.
Either way, here are a few points for perspective.
Group Assault - this would be a PVE oriented feat especially with the removal of the one below it (Crippling Strike) which could be then tailored as a PVP focused feat (Fissure). So the damage stacking here - noone uses this for PVP nor will they really ever use it in PVP. So the "stacking" - yeah we want to avoid this IMO but im just trying to level the playing fields for Instagators without messing with PVP or over nerfing Destroyer. Make sense? Mainly a PVE change to upp Insti damage capacity more on par with Destroyer. Fine with splitting the difference however a singular "buff" now becomes available for PVP uses. Which starts getting harder to track and balance. - TBH dont care much either way.
Battle Fury I think should be a fair option for GWFs. Right now it gives stamina refill which allows you to sprint to the target. Instead it should just give like 20% run speed which THEN actually gives the GWF options. Now you may be able to unslot bravery since you dont need runspeed as much etc. Since GWFs have very very poor control they HAVE to have these things - especially given they dont even have gap closers LOL.
"a 40% damage increase on everything for the removal of a 30% buff on one encounter use? " - Actually Daggers is a 40% damage bonus and STACKS and you can have 3stacks of them at once. So actually spamming it 2x then using a daily gives you 80% damage bonus from this ONE encounter.
Even dropping it to 10% makes it "mandatory" to use. What we need is to just make this one OPTION not a power that is MANDATORY for the class. Literally any GWF worth ANYTHING is using this because its like 1/2 and IBS, you get 3 of them using them subsequently makes 2 of them > an IBS in damage as an AOE AND buffs the rest of your damage. Its just STUPID that this was their attempt to "fix the class" from last module. Its dumb and NOT fun to use.
So yes, a 40% base damage buff however losing 40-80%+ damage bonus from this stacking encounter still makes it not BAD, but not mandatory. Its still great for fighting TRs or CWs who never let you catch them. So I would guess many still would use it.
"I'd happily see hidden daggers nerfed if a utility power got a similar increase." - This is the idea behind Battle Fury. Its utility, group buff, that provides damage bonus, AP gain and SHOULD give run speed rather than Stam refill (seems it should be the opposite - GF's should refill stamina since their primary roll is blocking, but they instead get run speed? GWFs should get the run speed but instead given more stamina for what? running away? Just makes no sense LOL.
It might be worth having a look into the barracks at one build in particular http://perfectworld.vanillaforums.com/discussion/545785/mod-6-guide-lazalias-high-crit-build-for-pve-gwf-destroyer/p1
It is a thing to see, you can draw your own conclusions. I'm hardly the only person noticing that SM destroyer is pretty out of whack with what anything else is doing. I don't have the requisite perfect negation and wheel to be doing much in pvp this mod so its a thing I encounter pretty often.
Did not know that was how hidden daggers were working. Thought it would just refresh or something. Thanks for that. The 40% buff is more plausible in that light.
My issue with the battle fury isn't the group buff aspect its just the run speed part of it in pvp. To be fair my cocnerns about movement speed are broader than just the gwf and include trs and the new mounts.
Yeah ive seen that. Its highly PVE focused and would get 2 shot in PVP. However Ill give him the benefit of the doubt but he is missing the fact that Powerful Challenge (15% dmg bonus) + Mark (20% dmg bonus) + Combat Adv (~12%-15%+) makes up MUCH more than the 30% from WMS. Now he may not want to feat 10 points into Sent for that, and maybe with crit that high Insti feats pay off more. My only point is that its not "SM GWF" but IV IMO works better because of TR Mark that can provide as much as 50%+ damage bonus JUST from marking the target. So we can agree to disagree. Im not a PVE hero so Ill take his work for it. I know SOTS gives 5% debuff which adds up as well plus the feat that prones targets with a crit from behind MAY provide significant CC effects as well, so theres that too. Point being in PVE they are similar for damage output and SM will outperform WITH a GF who is marking (since they dont overlap).
While I understand mandatory power for classes (see Destroyer Class feature LOL!!!!) The issue with Daggers is its unreliable, and a BAD way to "balance" a class. GWF was underperforming last module so they "fix it" by adding an encounter that deals AoE damage and gives you +40% stackable damage boost?! like WTH?.... Thats not a good way to fix classes. If you removed the damage bonus from Daggers GWFs would be toothless in both PVE and PVP.
For the run speed - I think its necessary. GWFs have little to no control. So if we cant outrun targets how can we even hit them? Ever play a GWF and finally get UP to a CW after chasing him around where can can "out blink" your stamina only to get repelled away from him?
Either GWF needs run speed or gap closer encounters that hit hard - like a GF with Lunging or Bull Charge. If youve ever played a CW with Shield on Tab who stacks recovery and can repel you every 6-8 seconds who also has 5+ dodges and cant be controlled. You will know what I mean. The second you get CLOSE to them, they repel. Then while they damage you and you get unstoppable, when you pop it, they dodge 4x and you are out of it. Then they IK you and you die.
Just think about this. Destroyer GWFs MUST use Bravery (which gives something like 15% run speed) AND Unfetted Strikes (which gives what 20% run speed?) AND can sprint to catch you and they are STILL unable to keep up with a CW or TR who can kite you around - what does that tell you?
The Runspeed was just one option that rather than stamina regen - which does essentially the same thing - the ability still wouldnt be good enough because you have to drop a chance at control via FLS to even have a CHANCE to catch the target to use it. So JUST being able to sprint isnt good enough. Which again. This MAY cause some GWFs to slot weapon master instead for more crit which then would net them around the same run speed they have now
Like i said I havent been in pvp much this mod. I saw the things that were necessary and I just did gg sometimes instead mostly out of laziness and a preference for putting the ad elsewhere. I don't usually get 1v1s. Its just a mess of running around and ambushing people or being ambushed by people. At least we got our casual mode this mod.
I think you would be better off responding to mcjae at this point. My general feeling is that trs should move slower in stealth and that piercing is madness, as regards cw like I wonder if that as much a negation issue and tenacity being gigantic as much as it is a runspeed thing.
Excessive damage only if you are trying to facetank them LOL. Or in a multi-person scenario where you are not being focused. But again. GWFs will lose to an equally geared equally skilled player more time than not. Now is their damage potential bad? No. But its just that - potential. It requires a massive amount of "build up" that frankly ends up relying MORE on the opponants not messing it up, than it does you coordinating it right. Small things that are outside of your control can make you go from being a BEAST to hitting with a wet noodle. Your SS doesnt really show much to me to be frank without surroundings etc. The "setup" is what is the problem not the potential and the Ease at which you can disrupt the "setup". Now I am not opposed for an overall damage "nerf" as long as it is coupled with much easier seemless "averaging" as far as the gameplay goes. What I mean is if your fighting a player who is trying to facetank you, your damage seems off the charts high, and the player is like WTF nerf GWFs (this is probably how DEVs test too). But then face a TR who never lets you hit him, you build zero stacks. You cant keep stacks up at all, you have zero "self healing" or "immunity frames" to avoid damage. OR against a CW as well who you never can reach to deal damage, ALL your damage comes from 2 hits (SA+IBS) which, again, comes down to having Daggers buffs up AND getting lucky with 1 or 2 detroyer stacks from the daggers +SA. If you dont, you wont deal any damage.
Again, its not "adequate damage" its what I call "average expereince" if you will. Look up my K/D. I probably have one of the best in the game (barring maybe some TRs). Why is that? Because Im in the 1% of the game that has BIS. Most of the time I que for PVP I get PUGs who try and facetank or stand still and "cast" at me. I throw two daggers. Sure Strike them 2x with LOL procs and IBS them for 50k+ and they die. But against an "even" opponent, I dont stand a chance. Its not even I "dont stand a chance" its that its not based on my skill at all if I will win, its SOLELY on the skill of opponent. NO other class really feels this. Other classes succeed directly in relation to how good they are. Its really only the GWF that aginst lower geared players or PUGs seems like a demi-god but versus other good players doesnt seem that amazing. Really more of a "wandering node clearer" at best - however a CW has more burst and control than a GWF so most of the time a CW is favored over a GWF for that purpose. Now with TRs going more Exec builds, I see them also replacing GWFs for burst since thats really all the 1 meta build can really do - burst damage if he is lucky to not get interrupted.
I agree, SW is in a bad spot but MAINLY because of Avalanche. If you only allows Avalanche to proc once per minute or even put like a 2 sec ICD on its "stacks" SWs would actually be very good. Even the best SWs though get WRECKED because of this boon - because it not only multiprocs but each "stack" procs off everything and an SW kills themselves on targets VERY quickly.
Im not saying "boost GWFs" I am saying CHANGE their damage output so its more reliable. GWFs have to stack over 200%-300% damage bonus to deal the same level of damage that a CW or GF has from the get go. Strip a GWF and GF naked, apples to apples in PE and compare their abilities. GF has 50% higher base damage. Why?
Its because gwfs get a bajillion feats with +dmg that end up compensating them. They need to find a middle ground like it USED to be. GWFs used to be TONS of fun and its only all the nerfs/buffs they keep messing with the class that change all that. Im fine with the "top end potential" being lower as long as our "unbuffed damage" is much higher.
Yes - GFs damage is cazy high. Yes- things liek TR Shocking is broken. Yes - OPs are unkillable 1v1. Yes DCs are stupid OP etc. Thats really not the point as I am not asking for pure buffs. I am merely asking for a "change of the QoL of the GWF".
Rather than making me keep Hidden daggers buff active and make me build up both destroyer stacks to THEN have a CHANCE to deal damage. Buff the base damage and lessen the effect of those damage buffs. Thats it. Makes for a more fun "normalized" experience where now against pugs GWFs seem like less of a demi-god but now they are better against equal opponents.
Yes and no. People said this about last module too lol. GWFs WERE in a bad spot and it depends what you mean. Is this module much better than last? yes. But its still VERY frustrating to play a GWF this module and only the BIS GWFs that know the class well really succeed part of this is just the population. The players that can BIS and pvp as BIS are more limited than before. If we saw mod 3 populations come back GWFs would be hurting more as there would be more good players with good gear and the flaws of the GWF design would be more apparent.
I dont think it would take much time at all to "fix" them. As I have said all you do is take AWAY damage buffs from 1 area (Daggers/Mark/Destroyer feat) and ADD them to other areas (STR/Base damage/Battle Fury) for a "net neutral effect". Now if you THEN want to say the damage needs to be toned back a tad - im fine with that. As for the "time" here is how simple it would be:
Step 1) Remove Daggers Damage buff.
Step 2) Increase Base damage by ~30% across the board. (Roughly net zero)
Step 3) Remove Powerful Challenge, now only adds threat.
Step 4) Strength now provides 2% dmg (up from 1%). (Roughly net zero)
Step 5) Focused Destroyer - now 100% chance to gain a stack. No longer gives additional 3.5% dmg bonus per stack. (net dmg loss but easier to keep up).
That would be a VERY welcome easy first start. Overall, much better "base" damage. More "Normalized" experience with higher "lows" but lower "highs"
What attention? We got no attention. We got changes promised by GMC that never happened. We got what? Hidden Daggers - which is exactly my point. THAT was the fix... rather than just actually beefing up our damage to normal levels, they instead give MORE damage stacking?
Then we just happened to get lucky that negation was buffed like it was or else without Negation you wouldnt even see GWFs in PVP anymore because they would be FAR too squishy. So if that gets nerfed. GG.
discussions like daggers, iv vs sm, etc, i will avoid for now. you know my opinion anway,
See id be much more infavor of a "Parry Stance" when standing still. Basically the exact same thing as Sprint but you dont have to move. Just pressing "Shift" activates it just like GF block. Gives 30% more DR.
It would actually make Sprint much more responsive, since many times I press sprint and it takes 1-2 seconds to even "kick in" (you know what I mean). So this "Parry Stance" or w.e would actually increase the "reaction time" possibilities of sprint. Allowing you to still be CC immune and 30% DR without having to "move".
You could still press "W" from there and it would sprint you forward just like you normally do, but NOT moving would still provide same benefits and consume stamina as well (maybe less?)
Yeah im not saying it would be, but it would be a step in the right direction no?
I know you are on the same page. Maybe different "suggestions" but we both agree 110% that we need MUCH MUCH better BASE damage across the board and less of this damage stacking <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> we have now.
my answer is yes about all; my problem about that feat in special is the gameplay of instigators. aoe damage by aoe damage , destroyers do millions in feel seconds... but aways stacked in the same place, smashing things (not against that for a specific tree). i want some dynamic option over the pure damage... well, everthing is better than the instigators today.
The instigator offers some neat utility, but our Unstoppable is utterly pointless, I've started using Wrathful Determination because there is absolutely no point in using Unstoppable unless the CC train is headed your way.
Thanks for taking the time to post! Im gonna snip for the sake of "ease of reading" and comment on your main points. I hope DEVs read ALL your feedback though as its good!
Im not quite sure how I feel about this since you now have a tier 5 feat buffing a capstone? Seems a LITTLE backwards to me? Maybe I dont understand.
I actually agree though and if this were the direction you wanted to go, here is what I would suggest (my perspective).
First) Destroyer changed so it no longer "stacks". Destroyer: Whenever you attack more than 3 opponents gain a 5% damage bonus for 6 seconds. Additional Ranks: +5%. Now this has removed stacking.
Focused Destroyer: Same as current EXCEPT remove the additional 3.5% per stack and give it an extra 5% total damage bonus. What this means is its merely 25% chance off any attack to proc this "Destroyer buff" for 6 seconds. Overall - damage reduction but more "uptime" since its now 5%*4ranks = 20% + 5% feated = 25% damage bonus. Not MASSIVE.
Destroyer (Capstone) changed to: On each attack you gain a stack of Destroyer. Increasing your damage by 5%, stacks 10 times. Stacks last 8 seconds. (Overall easier to get up, but less "uptime once up"). Meaning you have to keep attacking to keep this up, you DO have some wiggle room for "runing, kiting" but not a ton if you want to keep stacks up!
So overall its a nerf to destroyer damage, for PVE purposes you could still run Destroyer (feat) it just wouldnt be AS good for solo damage (bosses) however its only like a 20% damage bonus now though (Remember Trample is 20% as well) so it lost a little from its max currently (46.5% -> 25%). But now the entire Destroyer "tree" is much more accessible and easier to build up stacks. Destroyer has 25% chance to gain a good damage bonus for 6 seconds. Destroyer capstone builds off ANY attack but only lasts 8-10 seconds (basically leaving combat makes it fall off). But as you say, gives room for +damage elsewhere since we did take some away from destroyer (about 21%+).
I agree. This is why ALL GWFs should gain determination from dealing damage. Period. This would significantly help both Instigators and Sents, Although Insti's much more since they can deal OK damage (especially after we adjust them).
Instigators:
The Capstone should provide something like:
Instigators Vengeance should be something like this: For Every second in combat gain a damage bonus of 5% (stacks up to 10 times). Also, Activating Unstoppable REFILLS your stamina meter.
Then looking at "Group Assault" and adjusting that to give some nice damage bonus. Id almost mimic Destroyer (feat) with this feat. "When attacking 2 or more enemies, gain a 5/10/15/20/25% damage bonus for 6 seconds". So basically "Destroyer" but with 2 enemies and not a class feature (could sack them both for more damage!)
Now Instigators have their own unique damage abilities. This feat would also assist in PVP as well as 2 enemies are not hard to hit.
Additional Note: Warrior's Rush needs to STUN targets for 3 seconds. This would add some utility to Mighty Leap.
Allied Opportunity - the damage bonus to M.L. and NSF needs to be like 60% not 30%.
I agree. My initial comments to Crush were making this work JUST like "Battlerager Vigor" for Fighters in 4e:
"A fighter who selects the Battlerager Vigor class feature instead of Fighter Weapon Talent gains temporary hit points equal to his or her Constitution modifier whenever the fighter hits an enemy with a close or melee attack, in addition to temporary hit points normally granted by the power. Additionally, if the fighter misses every target with an invigorating power, the fighter gains temporary hit points equal to the Constitution modifier.[MP:6] The fighter gains these temporary hit points after the attack resolves."
So what this could easily be is something LIKE: Unstoppable Temp HP: Grants 6% temp HP each time you strike an opponent during unstoppable (cannot happen more than once per second). So this would give you a MAX of 48% in PVE if you attack once per second and 24% in PVP. Then the Temp HP can stay just like it does now.
My only qualm with this is in some cases it would actually be a nerf to GWFs currently so I would actually propose increasing Unstoppable to 5-10 seconds up from 4-8. Overall not a BIG difference but this would bump this to a 60% max temp HP (if used at max unstoppable) most of the time 5 seconds-6 seconds is when its used giving you a 30%ish temp HP if you attack once per second. This would be a nice boost to GWFs and an actual damage buff as well.
Those are just a few more complicated "thoughts" on changes.
if you ask to me, instigators should be a very fast tree bring some crazy advantages using unpopular powers and class features. the new tier 3 CONCEPT is a good step, just dont enough.
I hear you Macjae, and it's ultimately the problem Destroyers pose to buffing the rest of the GWF class. Sentinel and Instigators hit like wet paper towels this Mod and have no way to get more damage. A 40% base boost would SIGNIFICANTLY boost these trees into formidable damage dealers (seeing maybe 5 digits in PVP from an IBS).
This is why I think my change to the Destroyer feat would be worthwhile. It doesn't provide that big 45% damage boost very quickly, and it's not reliable at the beginning of the fight. However, as the fight wanes, it becomes increasingly more powerful. So the GWF would have a significant amount of *late* damage but lack in *early* damage, which I think is a fair compromise in order to offer the other trees some damage options.
Why dont you just ask for a .kill command macro from the devs? At the very moment the GWF is the strongest damage dealer in the game. There is no qualified reason to ask more damage on the strongest damage dealer in the game. (i did write it twice because it is important :P)
At the very moment the only problem on the GWFs that they are instantly dead without a proper tank infront of them. They are clearly unable to fullfill their secondary role as off-tank. I would be happy if this issue would be fixed instead of increasing the dmage output on a DPS GOD.
What is your beef with instigators and sentinels? Seriously? All you do is run around GWF threads and just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on any idea that could POSSIBLY up their damage, survivability and utility so they can get in groups and have a role. You provide no feedback other than BM&Cs.