Wanting a straight answer? (debate)

zickyjacks · June 2015

I know it's a dream in itself. And I'm pretty sure I won't get an answer from the devs through the forum mods, but I do have this question: Why does it seem like the Devs blatantly ignore the player base? I mean I understand there is some stipulation between what the players want and what needs to be done to make money...fine I can understand that.

But with this new update and the increase of health with a slight minor reduction in damage just says things in volumes. We as the player base asked for a reduction in damage. But we get a buff in HP and a small reduction instead? Why? Why make the over all grind harder? In my perspective longer grinding does not lead to a more fun playing experience when the grinding is out right boring, annoying, time consuming beyond the scope of an MMORPG, and out right hard. This is even more so true for people doing support classes.

Also this hinders new players. After (if they stick around this long) they decide to level up to 60, then they would have to look forward to not only how hard the mobs hit, but also how painstakingly long it will take just to get to 70, then deal with everything else that's questionable (at best) about the end game?

So just to ask again what gives? An update like this should (I would seem to think) be a direct answer to the outcry, doesn't seem like it is a money making type strategy, but more so experience.

If anyone else could chime with ideas that would be awesome.

Unknown · June 2015

This content has been removed.

fatguns · June 2015

Well that escalated quickly...

ucanthandle · June 2015

The problem is they made the game too easy to start. This is not suppose to be a single player game. MMOs are designed around being group friendly and designed for groups. Yes there are solo parts, but everything is not designed for solo. Every class can solo to 70. Now that they are making it more of a group game, which is what MMOs are, people are complaining that they cannot solo stuff easily. Even though many things can be soloed, just takes time, remember it is supposed to be done as a group.

The only difficult parts of the game are endgame, and well it should be difficult. You cannot release content for level 70s and make it extremely easy the first mod, because with new mods comes new gear (that is suppose to be an upgrade). If it is already easy, imagine how easy it would be with even better gear. People of all gear levels need a challenge.

hustin1 · June 2015

This is the problem with only increasing the level cap once in a blue moon and by large increments. In actual PnP D&D, you gain new equipment but you also gain new levels, and you move on to face more powerful enemies. Sure, a party of level-10 characters could continue whacking kobolds at will, but that would get extremely boring when it would take game years to advance a single level (not to mention that the DM could simply decide that players should get no XP and/or loot from enemies that far below the players' level).

If each new module had advanced the level cap by one level then gear inflation wouldn't be as much of an issue. Sharandar could have been a level 61 zone, DR a level 62 zone, and so on. Players would advance at the same rate as the content. As long as there is enough content to keep players engaged, it works out.

orion1001 · June 2015

You guys! Give them MORE time! You don't know how hard it is to be a dev for mmo's these days...

kvet · June 2015

Code changes take time, sure. Communication changes don't require a lot of time. If they said "We understand that Trans Vorpal and Terror are bugged and we are working on it as fast as we can. We can't guarantee, but we're hoping to have that fixed in X version" that's fine. Don't have to promise, just have to acknowledged the flaw and let us know it's being worked on. Then, give us updates on those issues regularly. They sorta started doing that, but they stopped after a couple such updates. There are bugs and flaws, sure, but the biggest flaw here is the business not interacting in any way with their customers. The only interaction we really have with them is when a moderator tells you he or she personally disagrees with your post, edits and closes it which is a negative interaction to say the least. Strumslinger puts out blog posts, but those are mostly marketing. Cryptic needs to be more communicative. Simple as that... they don't need lots of time for that.

Most of us understand it takes time to actually build/fix functionality, but we can't accept being ignored and censored. That's the reason we, as a community, are upset.

bodini72 · June 2015

slight minor reduction in damage??? really??? drama queen much??? 25% is not a slight minor reduction.

Unknown · June 2015

This content has been removed.

rickcase276 · June 2015

25% reduction is a matter of perspective. It is a big reduction if the trash mobs are only doing about 10k damage. But if they are doing 200k damage then that is still going to one-shot most if not all characters, even at 25% reduction.

championshewolf · June 2015

hustin1 wrote: »

This is the problem with only increasing the level cap once in a blue moon and by large increments. In actual PnP D&D, you gain new equipment but you also gain new levels, and you move on to face more powerful enemies. Sure, a party of level-10 characters could continue whacking kobolds at will, but that would get extremely boring when it would take game years to advance a single level (not to mention that the DM could simply decide that players should get no XP and/or loot from enemies that far below the players' level).

If each new module had advanced the level cap by one level then gear inflation wouldn't be as much of an issue. Sharandar could have been a level 61 zone, DR a level 62 zone, and so on. Players would advance at the same rate as the content. As long as there is enough content to keep players engaged, it works out.

This is a sign of you not understanding how things actually work. The ratio of Neverwinter levels to 4th edition DnD was a ratio of 3 to 1. In short, every 3 levels you gained in Neverwinter is the equivalent to gaining 1 level in 4th edition DnD. So in short, level 60 was the equivalent of having level 20 characters, and now at level 70 it is the equivalent of having level 23.3 characters. Basically, we've broken into the epic destiny levels as they would be referred to in 4th edition.

Increasing the level by 1 won't fix the gear issue as you claim, as gear is designed around the intended strength values the devs are balancing around. Whether it's by 1 level or 100 levels, the gear situation would still be based around what the devs would think would be adequate for the content. And since the systems are designed around the a psychological one as well (players love seeing huge numbers for instance) it isn't changing anytime soon.

Even in the table top games, players love throwing large handfuls of dice. The more dice you give them the happier they are. This psychological design is baked into 5th edition and is quite evident.

kvet · June 2015

That may have been the original intent, but Cryptic has stated they have have diverged and are moving beyond 4e. Basically, they said they are not constrained within any D&D ruleset, but rather operate separately with the content of the game based in the D&D IP, but the systems themselves mostly operating under their own rules.

zickyjacks · June 2015

kvet wrote: »

Code changes take time, sure. Communication changes don't require a lot of time. If they said "We understand that Trans Vorpal and Terror are bugged and we are working on it as fast as we can. We can't guarantee, but we're hoping to have that fixed in X version" that's fine. Don't have to promise, just have to acknowledged the flaw and let us know it's being worked on. Then, give us updates on those issues regularly. They sorta started doing that, but they stopped after a couple such updates. There are bugs and flaws, sure, but the biggest flaw here is the business not interacting in any way with their customers. The only interaction we really have with them is when a moderator tells you he or she personally disagrees with your post, edits and closes it which is a negative interaction to say the least. Strumslinger puts out blog posts, but those are mostly marketing. Cryptic needs to be more communicative. Simple as that... they don't need lots of time for that.

Most of us understand it takes time to actually build/fix functionality, but we can't accept being ignored and censored. That's the reason we, as a community, are upset.

Now coding wise I can understand that. Believe me sometimes it can take hours in making thousands of lines of code just to find a semicolon is out of place lol.

But the communication is really what I'm hitting on. Like it just doesn't make sense. I can understand that mods (being humans) have their own personal feelings. But aren't they more or less the messengers from one side to the next? Seems like there is a judge dread effect.

lewstelamon01 · June 2015

I've already had to mod this thread twice for this, so I'm going to say this for the record: The rules about public discussion of moderation or moderators did not change with the migration. It is still against RoC to discuss administrative actions, such as thread closures, post edits, or other moderation publicly. If you have an issue with moderation, please contact a moderator, a staff member, or use the support website. Thank you.

As this is considered to be a moderator notice, do not quote or respond to this post in any manner. Use the PM system to address any questions. Replies will be removed.

zickyjacks · June 2015

<<Please do not quote moderator notices, as denoted by orange text.>>

That's.....ok. I'm not so much having a having an issue, but just want to know more or less why. Like is it just trying to compile everything into a list? Is the list too long? Does it need to be laid out with an actual action plan behind it?

strumslinger · June 2015

Hey guys, let's get this thread back on topic. I'm all for hearing your guys' feedback on the changes. I've already started to ask the developers on this very decision.

zickyjacks · June 2015

strumslinger wrote: »

Hey guys, let's get this thread back on topic. I'm all for hearing your guys' feedback on the changes. I've already started to ask the developers on this very decision.

Thanks for seeing where I'm trying to get at. Like I said it's really just why, the process, what can even we do to make it easier if it comes down to that?

kvet · June 2015

@strumslinger Yes, this thread did get derailed a bit over the community moderators. So, the problem we're having here isn't giving feedback -- we give lots and lots of feedback. The problem is, there's been a very big lull in the feedback BACK from Cryptic about what's going on. You guys were on a roll for while there, seriously, it felt like a new leaf had been turned, but... what's been going on for the last few weeks? OK.. I get there was this forum migration thing... but it started well before that, and hasn't really gotten back on track after, so I can't really believe it was just the migration. So... what's up? We're waiting for more roadmap discussions.

strumslinger · June 2015

Believe it or not, we're working on a blog where we gather the most pressing questions from players and have the developers answer them. We're still working out the details, which is why there hasn't been much about bugs recently, but our intentions are still the same - to increase developer communication. They listened to us and changed the difficulty, but just because it's not something you'd expect, it doesn't mean they're not listening. I also hate to say this as it sounds like a lame excuse, but it's valid: a lot of the developers' time is spent on Strongholds and writing those awesome dev blogs you see. They're giving you insight on their development process, which is great as many players wanted to see exactly what they were working on.

kvet · June 2015

but andy.... what you just said... that's golden! Seriously, that's awesome. We know they're busy - heck they better be. heh. We might come off like impatient babies sometimes, but you know my background, I might get ranty sometimes, but that's only when I don't feel heard.

But...

1: You're developing a Q&A blog that will show our questions and dev answers. it's not done, but you're working on it (and presumably will keep us informed as to progress as best you can??)

2: They listened to us and changed the difficulty. Yup.. well sorta.

3: And yes, the dev blogs are great.

#1 though - that's news. Good news, I look forward to hearing more about that. See, progress

helpimblindinrl · June 2015

Believe it when I see it. Don't even remotely care about strongholds, more concerned about the game as it stands at present.

<If you have a question about the rules, use the PM system and do not ask such questions publicly.>

skalt112 · June 2015

orion1001 wrote: »

You guys! Give them MORE time! You don't know how hard it is to be a dev for mmo's these days...

They don't seem to know either

zickyjacks · June 2015

strumslinger wrote: »

Believe it or not, we're working on a blog where we gather the most pressing questions from players and have the developers answer them. We're still working out the details, which is why there hasn't been much about bugs recently, but our intentions are still the same - to increase developer communication. They listened to us and changed the difficulty, but just because it's not something you'd expect, it doesn't mean they're not listening. I also hate to say this as it sounds like a lame excuse, but it's valid: a lot of the developers' time is spent on Strongholds and writing those awesome dev blogs you see. They're giving you insight on their development process, which is great as many players wanted to see exactly what they were working on.

That I can totally understand. You get bogged down in one thing and you sometimes forget another. Happens everyone with everyone.

Hopefully this does come out and something good comes of it. At least it's a step in the right direction it seems.

instynctive · June 2015

zickyjacks wrote: »

That I can totally understand. You get bogged down in one thing and you sometimes forget another. Happens everyone with everyone.

Hopefully this does come out and something good comes of it. At least it's a step in the right direction it seems.

There's this thing called "Project Management". It's available either on clipboards with nifty graphs and boxes and words, or as software.

zickyjacks · June 2015

instynctive wrote: »

zickyjacks wrote: »

That I can totally understand. You get bogged down in one thing and you sometimes forget another. Happens everyone with everyone.

Hopefully this does come out and something good comes of it. At least it's a step in the right direction it seems.

There's this thing called "Project Management". It's available either on clipboards with nifty graphs and boxes and words, or as software.

I guess. Then again I'm not really of this world of management lol.

Unknown · June 2015

This content has been removed.

instynctive · June 2015

zickyjacks wrote: »

I guess. Then again I'm not really of this world of management lol.

I'm not either... but I had to put up an intranet project management system onto a company's computers, figure out how to use it and teach the managers how to use it.

herpaderp

kvet · June 2015

Ok, so, time for me to change sides a little here. In my current job, a large part of my role is project management. I lead a development team at a very large German software company. You have to understand that not every developer can work on any give problem at the same time. More people doesn't not equal a given issue being done faster. What's more, with multiple scrum teams, you allocate different work to different teams. Not all of that work will be bugs, there's a lot of priorities to hit and bugs fixes are only a part of that picture. More importantly, these guys don't work 24/7 any more than you do. So, there's only so many cycles (sprint cycles I mean, it's an Agile term... just look it up if you don't know what it is) and so many hours in the day. That means, if a person is doing X - say trying to fix the Trans Vorp bug, they aren't spending time with Andy doing Q&A for us.

Project management isn't there problem. They DO need to find time to respond to questions. I'm more than a little heartened to hear it's even in the works. We can't expect instant turnaround on anything, but we CAN expect some, even small, measure of feedback on progress. Doesn't have to be some huge glossy production either. Just a quick note like "Hey players, just wanted you to know we're making progress on X issue, it's proving tricky to nail down, but we're still knocking on it"

I have to put updates in tickets like that for stakeholders all the time (I have stale ticket rules in JIRA that nag me when a ticket hasn't been updated in a while), I think it would be good for cryptic to consider players as stakeholders in the game and should keep us informed as best you can. I mean, I get it - you don't want to make promises - but letting us know in a general sense that something we consider a priority is also a priority for you guys, and is therefore still being worked on actively would be HUGE step in the right direction.

kolatmaster · June 2015

kvet wrote: »

I think it would be good for cryptic to consider players as stakeholders in the game and should keep us informed as best you can. I mean, I get it - you don't want to make promises - but letting us know in a general sense that something we consider a priority is also a priority for you guys, and is therefore still being worked on actively would be HUGE step in the right direction.

This is perfectly stated.

strumslinger wrote: »

Believe it or not, we're working on a blog where we gather the most pressing questions from players and have the developers answer them. We're still working out the details, which is why there hasn't been much about bugs recently, but our intentions are still the same - to increase developer communication. They listened to us and changed the difficulty, but just because it's not something you'd expect, it doesn't mean they're not listening. I also hate to say this as it sounds like a lame excuse, but it's valid: a lot of the developers' time is spent on Strongholds and writing those awesome dev blogs you see. They're giving you insight on their development process, which is great as many players wanted to see exactly what they were working on.

Much appreciated for the update Strum, definitely good to see that things are progressing forward. I understand the difficulty in turnaround time, particularly with rabid gaming fans wanting instant satisfaction. It's the nature of the beast, though your above statement is quite reassuring!

I'd like to point back to kvet's statement I quoted above, open lines of communication and maintaining them, are paramount in keeping the fans content.

nielsg2 · June 2015

Um, none of this concept is all new... EQ, EQ2, WOW, they ALL have these problems, this is nothing new. The issue with EQ, EQ2, etc, is that the higher levels started out impossible to solo, not without significant risk of dying on trash mobs, let alone bosses... They became grinds a decade or more ago, issues with them all, is they didn't keep up with UI and Graphics and game play changes, they plod along with slowly dying user bases... I know, I was a beta user of EQ, close to 16 years ago... OMG has it been that long?

And NW team changed forums... really, who was complaining about the old ones?

ramesesthecat · June 2015

They lowered damage of the mobs by 25%....They increased mobs health by 50%.... Doesnt take a genius here folks, the mobs will stay alive longer and do more damage to you in the process. This is not a fix, its just another blunder of mod 6.

Wanting a straight answer? (debate)

Comments