soditalloverMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 88Arc User
its something that could be added to all dungeons healers heals would have to count as combat
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juleadreamMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 372Arc User
edited July 2015
Two ideas:
1) Create a script that will take any player at the campfire for one minute and drop them at either a random cleric or at a random Tiamat head (depending on the phase). FORCED participation. Make the leeches EARN the failure reward.
2) Create a script that will take any player at the campfire for one minute and drop them at a random location in the well of dragons, always right on top of a mob spawn point. This option would also include a 7 day ban from Tiamat and a 24 hour ban from queuing for ANYTHING.
Either force the campers to participate, or take away the ability to do anything as a consequence of camping.
*** edit to add ***
the bans in option 2 would be account-wide.
They need to increase the minimum ilvl by quite a lot, that'd fix many of the problems. While there are some people who will annoyingly give up unless the first head goes down in about 5 seconds, it's sometimes really clear that there's not a chance it will succeed, like when the first head doesn't even get down to 50% on the first phase. When that happens there's not much point in doing anything, you're grinding for no reward.
I have to agree about the item level, as it seems like 2300-2500 should be entry requirement; Considering, that a full party of the current entry could not even kill Tiamat (unless they stacked certain gear combos like high prophet).
I know people want dragon eggs, but Tiamat is a painful 20 minutes waiting for the fail. Not really my business if people want to waste their time or not.
Why do people even do Tiamat? To get Linu's? Linu's for what? Boons? And how many Linu's do you need? Oh, and that's just for your main, you say? How about your alternates? How would you like to do that again for each different class? Are you excited about getting your boons for the new classes coming out?
The solution to Tiamat isn't too hard to see now, is it? It's time to rethink Boons.
Tiamat isn't even the best way to get the Linu for boons anymore anyway; farming hoard coffers/heralds (or the AD to buy hoard coffers) is. 100 coffers = 1 Linu. Tiamat is a total <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> shoot unless you are in one of the handful of channels that are routinely successful at it, or you are adept at instance-switching / following the players in those channels.
Still worth doing, because even in a loss you can get a 60k dragon egg, 35k shard of negation (rapidly dropping in price due to the impending ArPen buff/Negation nerf) or 300k dragon cultist sack. A win gets you a shot at all that and possibly an artifact, even though most of the belts/cloaks are almost worthless now (even Lostmauth set stuff is cheap at the moment except the horn). Or, at T4 hoard, a shot at a 250k Orb of Tiamat, which likely won't go up in price at all even with the Tiamat set coming because it is kind of a meh set.
I know people want dragon eggs, but Tiamat is a painful 20 minutes waiting for the fail. Not really my business if people want to waste their time or not.
Tiamat isn't even the best way to get the Linu for boons anymore anyway; farming hoard coffers/heralds (or the AD to buy hoard coffers) is. 100 coffers = 1 Linu..
You miss The Point. Your alternate method of acquiring Linu's is just for 1 character. Do players want to be pigeon holed into playing just 1 character? Do they want to go through all those Tiamat encounters, or all that farming, again? Has it not occurred to any staff member that players might want to play more than one character?
My point is: The sheer number of Linu's required to complete WoD Boons is absurdly high. It's a case of main character unfriendliness and outright alternate hostility.
Another thing with Tiamat is just that it is a straight DPS race. You either have the DPS or you don't, and you can usually tell before the summoners are dead if you do.
While a team of barely-geared players might get through a T1/T2 dungeon on skill, ability synergy and scrappiness, that isn't happening in Tiamat. You either have the DPS or you don't; hell, even before the summoners, if you see a half dozen pallies and clerics standing around, and only one or two GWfs with lesser enchants, you may as well as break out the marshmallows and pray someone Dc's in another instance so you can get in there. While everyone I am sure has an anecdote of an epic 'come from behind' Tiamat victory, that isn't likely and if it does happen, it is very likely because some of the handful of extremely well-geared players (if you do alot of Tiamat, you probably know who they are) who regularly do it ported in after they finished early to try to pull out a 2nd win.
DPS is king in Tiamat; without it, you can be the best cleric defender in the world and fail miserably.
Thinking about this a bit, maybe they should change the way the Tiamat timer works. If you kill her within the 20 minutes, you get better rewards. Kill her after 20 minutes, you still get a reward, but it's less.
Maybe have tiered timers, like the Jubilee Skirmish. Kill her in 20 minutes, you get the very best rewards, kill her in 30 minutes, get rewards, but they're slightly less. Kill her before 40 minutes is up, you still get something, but maybe it's JUST a Linu favor (and nothing else). If you don't get her down in 40, you fail and have to wait for the temple to open again for another chance. Remove the failure rewards (or make it something very paltry, like dragon coins or enchant shards, and remove the GOOD rewards from the failure loot table).
You'll get fewer people AFKing for the chance at ANY loot, and people who might not have been able to handle the 20-minute race can still get her down and get their Linu favors. People who still have the hardcore DPS to annihilate her still get their good rewards.
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instynctiveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,885Arc User
Another thing with Tiamat is just that it is a straight DPS race. You either have the DPS or you don't, and you can usually tell before the summoners are dead if you do.
Yes and no.
Without crowd control, there's no way to effectively keep mobs off the Clerics, or off the platform (and away from the DPSers) at the heads. Without buffs/debuffs, it's going to take longer to kill the heads. Without shielding and other protection, all the DPS in the world isn't going to matter if you're spending half the time running back from the campfire.
Outside of that, yes, it is a DPS race; however, there still has to be a good mix of classes for an optimal run.
Oh, and everyone helping. None of this "camping" stuff.
This AFKing for the sake of AFKing is a new thing. I got all my Linus on two characters with little trouble. Was that if you were going to win, you fight, now it is go in and AFK for an egg, on purpose.lol Even saw a post on people doing it during NCL.
It's not a new thing, people have been going AFK in Tiamat since Mod 5. It's worse now than ever and the reason for it is simple - you don't need to actually contribute or win to get rewards. The result? People go in and just AFK hoping for a dragon egg and those who actually want to play the game are out of luck.
The answer to this is easy - Make sure there are guaranteed good rewards for a win and make it so failure gets you no rewards! After all, when you fail, Elminster turns back time and you never fought her ... so why should you get a reward for something that never happened?
urlord283Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,084Arc User
It may not be new but is much worse...We need something
Raise the entry requirement, and drop the failure reward
Then only people who want to play will go in
something needs to be done, it is really bad
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
Bad choice of metric (damage) but the basic idea is sound.
If you kick someone who is not participating, it will not help that battle. But the ability to kick non-participants would reduce the incentive for campers to enter in the first place.
Locks, seem it is sound like devs are hostile and wont spend time to tone down to fix legion devils and heads, they wont even adjust these clerics when the beam is full, those devils would have been "banished" until next "head phases" timers cycle.
and stop the all those dirty cheap one-shots and thier defenses and health base are crazy too high, and too much Blinkings effect causing data lag.
some folks are still upset with other class's attack skills which may also cause lags.
anyway, make me wonder why devs just barely investigate tiamat, i stop going to that zone, it is still broken and still abuse by afk'ers. it is very expensive fights that cost me so many health kits and rewards not even worth doing it.
2.1k isnt feel enough as it said "1.8k" required to get inside, and doing the fights, it feel like it required to have 2.5k or 2.7k to have better chances.
last time i went, i saw only 1 head just went to 50% in 20 mins and 4 other heads still untouch, so just maybe it made so many players to give up and wait for timer expires.
Devs should redo all the elite mobs that are 70-73 lvl felt way too much for most current gear set ups, and trim out eccessive spawns.
Thinking about this a bit, maybe they should change the way the Tiamat timer works. If you kill her within the 20 minutes, you get better rewards. Kill her after 20 minutes, you still get a reward, but it's less.
Maybe have tiered timers, like the Jubilee Skirmish. Kill her in 20 minutes, you get the very best rewards, kill her in 30 minutes, get rewards, but they're slightly less. Kill her before 40 minutes is up, you still get something, but maybe it's JUST a Linu favor (and nothing else). If you don't get her down in 40, you fail and have to wait for the temple to open again for another chance. Remove the failure rewards (or make it something very paltry, like dragon coins or enchant shards, and remove the GOOD rewards from the failure loot table).
You'll get fewer people AFKing for the chance at ANY loot, and people who might not have been able to handle the 20-minute race can still get her down and get their Linu favors. People who still have the hardcore DPS to annihilate her still get their good rewards.
Best solution iv seen here so far... This one could really work
And about rewards i would do them like this (to make it more fair for ppl who cant get gear / raids needed for 20 min win):
No win - some Dragon coins and dragon coffers, but nothing much so ppl have no reason to stay afk in Tia runs
40 min win - current loose rewards + 1 linu
30 min win - current win rewards (talking about 100% donation time) without Tia Artifact
20 min win - current win rewards (again 100% donation) with Tia Artifact and 2 Linu
Think this would make reward table more less fair and would make ppl aim for 20 min win, couse of 2 linu , that would make geting boons less painfull (and with amount of linu needed , would still make ppl do Tia a lot), while still making 30 and 40 min win have decent rewards.
Thinking about this a bit, maybe they should change the way the Tiamat timer works. If you kill her within the 20 minutes, you get better rewards. Kill her after 20 minutes, you still get a reward, but it's less.
Maybe have tiered timers, like the Jubilee Skirmish. Kill her in 20 minutes, you get the very best rewards, kill her in 30 minutes, get rewards, but they're slightly less. Kill her before 40 minutes is up, you still get something, but maybe it's JUST a Linu favor (and nothing else). If you don't get her down in 40, you fail and have to wait for the temple to open again for another chance. Remove the failure rewards (or make it something very paltry, like dragon coins or enchant shards, and remove the GOOD rewards from the failure loot table).
You'll get fewer people AFKing for the chance at ANY loot, and people who might not have been able to handle the 20-minute race can still get her down and get their Linu favors. People who still have the hardcore DPS to annihilate her still get their good rewards.
Best solution iv seen here so far... This one could really work
And about rewards i would do them like this (to make it more fair for ppl who cant get gear / raids needed for 20 min win):
No win - some Dragon coins and dragon coffers, but nothing much so ppl have no reason to stay afk in Tia runs
40 min win - current loose rewards + 1 linu
30 min win - current win rewards (talking about 100% donation time) without Tia Artifact
20 min win - current win rewards (again 100% donation) with Tia Artifact and 2 Linu
Think this would make reward table more less fair and would make ppl aim for 20 min win, couse of 2 linu , that would make geting boons less painfull (and with amount of linu needed , would still make ppl do Tia a lot), while still making 30 and 40 min win have decent rewards.
if something like this happened. you would get the groups that queue, win in 20, change instance, win in 40. getting 3 linus. I'd do it. my group wins about 80+% of the time. and we all change instance.
i'm all for it but it will be gamed.
on the other hand it would be hard to penalize the campfire sitters. how do you detect them.
no motion - i "do something"
in the campfire ring - I go to the door
the only way i could think of detecting them is to detect characters that don't get aggro or don't attack. but that might get a false positive on some type of healer. so i'm not sure.
Then they could just close that loophole that lets people jump instances after a win. It clearly shouldn't be happening anyway, if they wanted you to be able to change instances, they'd let you from the get-go, and to do it requires actually logging out. Seems like an oversight rather than a feature.
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited July 2015
What seems to make the most sense to me, since afkers just want to leech a loss reward for no effort, is they should form their own /channel_join TiamatAFK and go in together.
Because it doesn't make a spit of difference if 3 people are afk or 25... the loss rewards don't change, right?
(Edit: I was "done" Tiamat after 3 goes. HATE it. Don't need the boons that badly.)
There is this one player that intentionally AFKs in Tiamat and pretty much flaunts it. Whenever I see this person I either cry or laugh because I can't do a thing about it.
I saw him hiding behind the chest at 2 minutes in, doing absolutely nothing! Despite this person however, we did win the instance - and it was a free ride for him.
Comments
1) Create a script that will take any player at the campfire for one minute and drop them at either a random cleric or at a random Tiamat head (depending on the phase). FORCED participation. Make the leeches EARN the failure reward.
2) Create a script that will take any player at the campfire for one minute and drop them at a random location in the well of dragons, always right on top of a mob spawn point. This option would also include a 7 day ban from Tiamat and a 24 hour ban from queuing for ANYTHING.
Either force the campers to participate, or take away the ability to do anything as a consequence of camping.
*** edit to add ***
the bans in option 2 would be account-wide.
I know people want dragon eggs, but Tiamat is a painful 20 minutes waiting for the fail. Not really my business if people want to waste their time or not.
Why do people even do Tiamat? To get Linu's? Linu's for what? Boons? And how many Linu's do you need? Oh, and that's just for your main, you say? How about your alternates? How would you like to do that again for each different class? Are you excited about getting your boons for the new classes coming out?
The solution to Tiamat isn't too hard to see now, is it? It's time to rethink Boons.
Still worth doing, because even in a loss you can get a 60k dragon egg, 35k shard of negation (rapidly dropping in price due to the impending ArPen buff/Negation nerf) or 300k dragon cultist sack. A win gets you a shot at all that and possibly an artifact, even though most of the belts/cloaks are almost worthless now (even Lostmauth set stuff is cheap at the moment except the horn). Or, at T4 hoard, a shot at a 250k Orb of Tiamat, which likely won't go up in price at all even with the Tiamat set coming because it is kind of a meh set.
It was shameful
I think they should raise the floor again.
I would rather sit out a run than have people who feel so helpless
Go from 18K to 23K
Geez
Urlord
AFKers waste everyone else's time too.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
You miss The Point. Your alternate method of acquiring Linu's is just for 1 character. Do players want to be pigeon holed into playing just 1 character? Do they want to go through all those Tiamat encounters, or all that farming, again? Has it not occurred to any staff member that players might want to play more than one character?
My point is: The sheer number of Linu's required to complete WoD Boons is absurdly high. It's a case of main character unfriendliness and outright alternate hostility.
While a team of barely-geared players might get through a T1/T2 dungeon on skill, ability synergy and scrappiness, that isn't happening in Tiamat. You either have the DPS or you don't; hell, even before the summoners, if you see a half dozen pallies and clerics standing around, and only one or two GWfs with lesser enchants, you may as well as break out the marshmallows and pray someone Dc's in another instance so you can get in there. While everyone I am sure has an anecdote of an epic 'come from behind' Tiamat victory, that isn't likely and if it does happen, it is very likely because some of the handful of extremely well-geared players (if you do alot of Tiamat, you probably know who they are) who regularly do it ported in after they finished early to try to pull out a 2nd win.
DPS is king in Tiamat; without it, you can be the best cleric defender in the world and fail miserably.
Maybe have tiered timers, like the Jubilee Skirmish. Kill her in 20 minutes, you get the very best rewards, kill her in 30 minutes, get rewards, but they're slightly less. Kill her before 40 minutes is up, you still get something, but maybe it's JUST a Linu favor (and nothing else). If you don't get her down in 40, you fail and have to wait for the temple to open again for another chance. Remove the failure rewards (or make it something very paltry, like dragon coins or enchant shards, and remove the GOOD rewards from the failure loot table).
You'll get fewer people AFKing for the chance at ANY loot, and people who might not have been able to handle the 20-minute race can still get her down and get their Linu favors. People who still have the hardcore DPS to annihilate her still get their good rewards.
Yes and no.
Without crowd control, there's no way to effectively keep mobs off the Clerics, or off the platform (and away from the DPSers) at the heads. Without buffs/debuffs, it's going to take longer to kill the heads. Without shielding and other protection, all the DPS in the world isn't going to matter if you're spending half the time running back from the campfire.
Outside of that, yes, it is a DPS race; however, there still has to be a good mix of classes for an optimal run.
Oh, and everyone helping. None of this "camping" stuff.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
It's not a new thing, people have been going AFK in Tiamat since Mod 5. It's worse now than ever and the reason for it is simple - you don't need to actually contribute or win to get rewards. The result? People go in and just AFK hoping for a dragon egg and those who actually want to play the game are out of luck.
The answer to this is easy - Make sure there are guaranteed good rewards for a win and make it so failure gets you no rewards! After all, when you fail, Elminster turns back time and you never fought her ... so why should you get a reward for something that never happened?
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
Raise the entry requirement, and drop the failure reward
Then only people who want to play will go in
something needs to be done, it is really bad
If you kick someone who is not participating, it will not help that battle. But the ability to kick non-participants would reduce the incentive for campers to enter in the first place.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
and stop the all those dirty cheap one-shots and thier defenses and health base are crazy too high, and too much Blinkings effect causing data lag.
some folks are still upset with other class's attack skills which may also cause lags.
anyway, make me wonder why devs just barely investigate tiamat, i stop going to that zone, it is still broken and still abuse by afk'ers. it is very expensive fights that cost me so many health kits and rewards not even worth doing it.
2.1k isnt feel enough as it said "1.8k" required to get inside, and doing the fights, it feel like it required to have 2.5k or 2.7k to have better chances.
last time i went, i saw only 1 head just went to 50% in 20 mins and 4 other heads still untouch, so just maybe it made so many players to give up and wait for timer expires.
Devs should redo all the elite mobs that are 70-73 lvl felt way too much for most current gear set ups, and trim out eccessive spawns.
Best solution iv seen here so far... This one could really work
And about rewards i would do them like this (to make it more fair for ppl who cant get gear / raids needed for 20 min win):
No win - some Dragon coins and dragon coffers, but nothing much so ppl have no reason to stay afk in Tia runs
40 min win - current loose rewards + 1 linu
30 min win - current win rewards (talking about 100% donation time) without Tia Artifact
20 min win - current win rewards (again 100% donation) with Tia Artifact and 2 Linu
Think this would make reward table more less fair and would make ppl aim for 20 min win, couse of 2 linu , that would make geting boons less painfull (and with amount of linu needed , would still make ppl do Tia a lot), while still making 30 and 40 min win have decent rewards.
FOOOOOOOOOOD Kardashian should just be perma-banned from Tiamat.
Then they could just close that loophole that lets people jump instances after a win. It clearly shouldn't be happening anyway, if they wanted you to be able to change instances, they'd let you from the get-go, and to do it requires actually logging out. Seems like an oversight rather than a feature.
Because it doesn't make a spit of difference if 3 people are afk or 25... the loss rewards don't change, right?
(Edit: I was "done" Tiamat after 3 goes. HATE it. Don't need the boons that badly.)
Neverwinter Census 2017
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This guy pretty much summed it up:
I saw him hiding behind the chest at 2 minutes in, doing absolutely nothing! Despite this person however, we did win the instance - and it was a free ride for him.