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A Debuff TR
rustlord
Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
From my understanding, following last week's patch which improved tenacity use in PvP--debuffs could be a strong (if the only) source of potent damage. I say this knowing full well about piercing damage of SO, its ups and downs, and the types of opponents its overpowered (or does not work) against. If that last part didn't make much sense to you, I suggest you don't pry because that's not my topic here.
Back to debuffs;
Fact 1: Tenacity and DR are so good now, that you will strike for such pathetic damage (below 20%).
Fact 2: Debuffs along the lines of "5% ignores armor" start to make sense to me.
I know there are two of you in this forum with enough knowledge to figure this out--you know who you are!
That all been said, I wanted to brainstorm about using certain debuffs that we do have;
I'm still a little sketchy on how this all could fit into one build. But really, the changes in tenacity just made the classes tankier and screwed the damage for all strikers in general. Believe it or not, my sabo was toned down by this change. Piercing is still OP as ****, but everything from autocrits to LoL procs were floored. I tested Executioner builds extensively today on preview and found nothing very promising there.
PS:
If the current DR/APR system is there to stay, I will probably shift my attention to a low-crit, low-stealth WK Scoundrel
If I could find a way to do damage at all. If not that, then a 120% arpen-stacking Executioner.
Back to debuffs;
Fact 1: Tenacity and DR are so good now, that you will strike for such pathetic damage (below 20%).
Fact 2: Debuffs along the lines of "5% ignores armor" start to make sense to me.
I know there are two of you in this forum with enough knowledge to figure this out--you know who you are!
That all been said, I wanted to brainstorm about using certain debuffs that we do have;
- Broken Armor: The final strike of Sly Flourish applies Broken Armor. The target takes 5% damage from all sources.
- Wicked Reminder: Pierce enemy's armor, cracking it for a period of time. Stacks up to 15%.
- Exposed Weakness: While in stealth, ignore 25% of target's armor.
- Gutterboon: You ignore an additional 10% of your target's armor.
- Bronzewood:
I'm still a little sketchy on how this all could fit into one build. But really, the changes in tenacity just made the classes tankier and screwed the damage for all strikers in general. Believe it or not, my sabo was toned down by this change. Piercing is still OP as ****, but everything from autocrits to LoL procs were floored. I tested Executioner builds extensively today on preview and found nothing very promising there.
PS:
If the current DR/APR system is there to stay, I will probably shift my attention to a low-crit, low-stealth WK Scoundrel
If I could find a way to do damage at all. If not that, then a 120% arpen-stacking Executioner.
Post edited by rustlord on
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Master Infiltrator: clamp(base DR 15% + Negation 30% + Master Infighter 10% , 80)
Whisperknife: clamp(base DR 15% + Master Infighter 10% + Advantageous Position 20% + Negation 30%, 80)
It's easier for WK to reach that DR cap and be tankier at the expense of a CC break.
If WK, then you can fit in Distracting Knife.
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I used a lot of Wicked Reminder in M5... when I was able to sit still. Combining that WR with Gutterborn, add in some Exposed Weakness passive and maybe Sly Flourish... this could work very well. It will definitely have some poor ******* scratching his head.
Sadly, WR is slow as hell to stack unless it is done from stealth which adds 2 more initial stacks.
If this was done from stealth and behind, which is required for Gutterborn, while someone else distracted them... I would give them 10 seconds MAX to live.
OMG... CB, SB, WR from stealth and behind to proc Gutterborn with Exposed Weakness and Sly Flourish.
There's the slow from feated VP, but then that requires using VP....
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Talking about Wicked Reminder, there are a few quirks I know of it;
Wicked Reminder from Stealth is queued twice. Once for the damage, and again to apply the debuff. It procs SO 2x, and Lostmauth's Vengeance 4x.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Wicked Reminder deals 5463 (25686) Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Your Shadowy Opportunity deals 4912 Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lostmauth's Vengeance deals 1624 (7634) Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lostmauth's Vengeance deals 1601 (7525) Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lostmauth's Vengeance deals 1454 (6835) Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lostmauth's Vengeance deals 1405 (6605) Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Your Shadowy Opportunity deals 4626 Physical Damage to Marx 1.
Lurkers Wicked Reminder spam (3x hits) on a 40/80 Tenacity target.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Wicked Reminder deals 7215 (33910) Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Your Shadowy Opportunity deals 6203 Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lostmauth's Vengeance deals 2020 (9495) Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lostmauth's Vengeance deals 2116 (9944) Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lostmauth's Vengeance deals 2024 (9511) Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lostmauth's Vengeance deals 2104 (9887) Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Your Shadowy Opportunity deals 6638 Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Wicked Reminder deals 4793 (21497) Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Your Shadowy Opportunity deals 4017 Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lostmauth's Vengeance deals 1216 (5454) Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lostmauth's Vengeance deals 299 (5365) Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lostmauth's Vengeance deals 1173 (5262) Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Your Shadowy Opportunity deals 3623 Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lostmauth's Vengeance deals 1254 (5625) Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lostmauth's Vengeance deals 292 (5241) Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Shadow Strike deals 298 (5339) Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Your Shadowy Opportunity deals 3544 Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Wicked Reminder deals 5400 (24219) Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Your Shadowy Opportunity deals 4308 Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lostmauth's Vengeance deals 1494 (6701) Physical Damage to Marx 1.
[Queue] 50 Kill
[Queue] Marx 1 was killed by ~.
10 seconds?
More like 5.
From full health to dead in 5 seconds. NICE
Data should sum to a 60K total for 5 seconds, but Lurkers wasn't over and I had more Wicked Reminders in me. Sadly, I need "healthier" volunteers to kill for more empirical results.
Test Subject has 40/80% Tenacity, 75K HP, Perfect Negation.
I have 12K power, no arpen.
Played as Saboteur: https://youtu.be/5iGuQhzdn7E
Played as Executioner: http://youtu.be/HqZ-Zqqc7Uk
I have no idea how the heck you're gonna weave that in active combat. All I know is it hurts pretty bad.
Sounds good to me! I'm only in the "find damage" phase, and I know "landing a hit" is a different matter, but that's definitely the next step. I think an initial daze to the target, or slow, may be the only way to land this combo. Hope to catch you in game!
In the Exec video I kept waiting for SoD to proc... when it did I was shocked that it took so much off.
I have two set ups I'm waiting to test with morenthar. One is using Courage Breaker instead of Lurkers, buffed by Invisible Infiltrator. The second is by making use of Talisman of Shadows to daze the opponent while entering stealth, ensuring a tiny window to land WR.
This is a spec that will either work really good, or not work at all. The piercing damage and multiprocs of LoL is astounding, but if you can't hit anything with it, there's little value to be had.
Please point me to your data. It will be a great help. Cheers
Unfortunately there's not much I can say in terms of objective data. I used it very early in mod6 where there wasn't this Negation frenzy yet. It did seem to give me a somewhat noticeable amount of increase in damage.. but the problem was as exactly as some of you mentioned -- landing it, as well as keeping it in one of the 3 encounter slors. The general pains of trying to manage it was pretty severe.
Of course, this is before I've discovered the "Daze + OppDarkness + slows to land DF" method. During that time it was generally so difficult to land DF with the shortened stealth time that I'd set up a CoS-based Executioner build, which presented a certainly dilemma in that to land WR I had to get in close, but then come back and get out again to throw CoS. Melee attacks were always superbly difficult toland square in NW -- and this is with a WK, a paragon with a gapcloser that supports a "queue-up animation cancel" method that you can fire off as you teleport. Landing the WR part is possible, but landing the Sly Flourish... that's the real problem.
So basically I met all of the problems you or morenthar brought up in real life, which forced me to just move over to a "standard" type of build... hence, like said, not much help.
However, it does give me a few ideas on how I may tweak my current scoundrel build to support the idea, as it seems the base idea is highly compatible.
...and well well, it seems I also have a Perfect Bronzewood in my coffers
Life is strange.
Seems odd your subsequent WRs doing less damage. Unless the DR reduction is going through ARP resist first? Also, maybe the first WR was done with Shadowborn feat?
And or First Strike.
The problem is yet again, Sly Flourish, or rather how clunky melee attacks are in NW in general. It seems the OppDark assisted DF attacks in my thread are working because, like every one knows, the 3rd flurry attacks are auto-homing attacks that automatically move you around according to enemy movement (except dodge/teleports that breaks off from your range).
The theory itself works, IMO, rustlord. I've tried WR+Bronzewood combos on almost all classes and it does have a noticeably larger damage IMO.
...but the problem is landing SF is such a pain... even with slows. Another problem is that by slotting WR I don't have room to slot Dazing Strike, which is another integral part of my own rotation which first -- dazes --> slows --> melees. WR, I can hit with. But due to the 3-slot limitation I can't daze them if I slot WR, and when the enemy is slowed, but not CCd, he simply evades with teleport/dodges... and by the time I catch up when he runs out of dodge/teleports, then the effects of BW is over, as well as slows.
IMO to make this really work, it's the dilemma of landing that Sly Flourish which would become the largest problem at hand.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
It would have to be a Trans Terror to root.
But the use of Bronzewood is integral with rust's set-up, otherwise, there's no point.
x = base DR * (1 + Tenacity DR)
y = incArP * Tenacity APR
z = base DR * (1 + Tenacity DR + CDR)
That being considered, Lashing Blade damage is back up as well as most high crits, provided you stack a proper amount of ArP.
Cheers!
So.. how many RI% you think is good for a majority of fight situations ?
DPS classes at 15% DR x 40% tenacity, putting them at 20/21% base. Common APR among PvPers is 60%, so that's 21% / 1 - 0.6 = 54% RI to mitigate all base defenses for non-tank players. This is outside of the buffs and Negation layer, because those are still unaffected by arpen.
For tank classes, GWF/DC/OP/GF, DR peaks at 60% to 80% from all sources. You can't penetrate all that, but 40% of your arpen will still go through as damage bonus. In the same example above; 54% RI x ( 1 - 0.6 ) = 21% damage bonus.
This all assumes that APR is working correctly. Prior to this patch, APR was additive and it made no point to stack arpen below 80% RI.
Hope that helps
Yes ! Help me a lot ! I can use my 5 feats points in Ex.Weakness for other things now and trade my draconics enchants for cruels. Same Arp cap in pve and pvp ( 60% ).