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Guardian Fighter vs Paladin
ldedric1
Member Posts: 36 Arc User
SO I have been leveling up a GF, I wanted to see the difference between the GF and Paly myself so here we go.
This is a review based on a classes ability to tank.
First off the OP's Divine Protector outweighs any all other powers for tanking no matter the class. an OP with a virtuous cleric makes near all dungeon runs not too difficult. We are already seeing the results of this class combo in pvp.
The GF can use a combination of encounter powers, particularly Iron Warrior and Knight's Valor and they can work for a short time, combined with some shield usage they work well together.
Holding mob's agro is easy for both classes, slightly better with the GF so this is a moot point.
Shift ability
Paladin's heal uses a shield to hide behind while healing yourself and anyone near you. Any enemy swinging at the op hits for reduced damage if they are in front of you, unsure of the exact amount, it has been wildly variable from what I have seen.
The GF's Shield acts similar except it reduces all damage in front of you by about 50%, AP dependent, no healing, and if an enemy is flanking you don't negate "any" damage whatsoever, you can swing "over" your shield to help maintain some agro on enemies in front of you. Lastly if you build right you can redirect some of the damage back.
The bad of a GF's shield, if you are in an animation of any kind unlike "every" other class your animation must complete before your shield raises, and if you are swinging over your shield and you want to lower it, it can take up to 4 more swings before the shield will lower even if you have stopped swinging on the mouse or keyboard.
Results
The GF is much more versatile in "tanking" mobs and requires a less skilled DC of any build to be effective
The OP, however the has a significantly stronger offensive capabilities, and with a virtuous DC can be used extremely well in dungeons.
For the casual gamer the OP will be much more effective for you, you will not need a great build or be heavily enchanted to make this a versatile tank.
For the hard core tank the GF really is the way to go though you will struggle much of the way with your severely diminished offensive capabilities.
This is a review based on a classes ability to tank.
First off the OP's Divine Protector outweighs any all other powers for tanking no matter the class. an OP with a virtuous cleric makes near all dungeon runs not too difficult. We are already seeing the results of this class combo in pvp.
The GF can use a combination of encounter powers, particularly Iron Warrior and Knight's Valor and they can work for a short time, combined with some shield usage they work well together.
Holding mob's agro is easy for both classes, slightly better with the GF so this is a moot point.
Shift ability
Paladin's heal uses a shield to hide behind while healing yourself and anyone near you. Any enemy swinging at the op hits for reduced damage if they are in front of you, unsure of the exact amount, it has been wildly variable from what I have seen.
The GF's Shield acts similar except it reduces all damage in front of you by about 50%, AP dependent, no healing, and if an enemy is flanking you don't negate "any" damage whatsoever, you can swing "over" your shield to help maintain some agro on enemies in front of you. Lastly if you build right you can redirect some of the damage back.
The bad of a GF's shield, if you are in an animation of any kind unlike "every" other class your animation must complete before your shield raises, and if you are swinging over your shield and you want to lower it, it can take up to 4 more swings before the shield will lower even if you have stopped swinging on the mouse or keyboard.
Results
The GF is much more versatile in "tanking" mobs and requires a less skilled DC of any build to be effective
The OP, however the has a significantly stronger offensive capabilities, and with a virtuous DC can be used extremely well in dungeons.
For the casual gamer the OP will be much more effective for you, you will not need a great build or be heavily enchanted to make this a versatile tank.
For the hard core tank the GF really is the way to go though you will struggle much of the way with your severely diminished offensive capabilities.
Post edited by ldedric1 on
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GF are x10 time more agressive and have x10 time more dmg also he can boost ptm dmg up to 100% thnx to itf rank4 +other skills .
Also GF shild have his own layer on top of dmg resistance and its not 50% its 80%.
Also GFs KV isnt bugged the recived dmg is not effected by his own arp.
Btw from 10 GF at least 8 can do this content .
From 10 prot paladin 8 have zero clue why they die they have zero idea why they lose the agro !
Cuz palainds cant facetank like GFs the dont have FR(the best healing daly in game).
So summa summa GF is much more easy then P.Paladin .(just seach forum GF dont ask for advice, paladins are still stuggle)
Believe me, GFs also have their moments of "My shield was UP. UP you hear me! Arrrghhhhhh...."
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only reliable defense is divine protector 2x20 sec with a good party can murder almost anything :P
***
There are a couple misconceptions and misnomers in OP analysis:
Shift ability
Paladin's heal uses a shield to hide behind while healing yourself and anyone near you. Any enemy swinging at the op hits for reduced damage if they are in front of you, unsure of the exact amount, it has been wildly variable from what I have seen. The GF's Shield acts similar except it reduces all damage in front of you by about 50%, AP dependent, no healing, and if an enemy is flanking you don't negate "any" damage whatsoever, you can swing "over" your shield to help maintain some agro on enemies in front of you. Lastly if you build right you can redirect some of the damage back.
What you are referring to is the Devotion Paladin; they have chosen the Devotion Paragon Tree and this radically changes how the class plays; it is now way, way, way more like a Devoted Cleric than a Guardian Fighter. So if I may provide a more accurate picture:
A Devotion Paladin is not considered to be a tank, it is a Divine Fighter, but not a tank. A Protection Paladin is specifically designed to be a full tank, literally parallel to the Guardian Fighter, so we must compare apples to apples:
A Protection Paladin's shift mechanic works the same way as the Guardian Fighter: there is no heal, and (IIRC) does not prvide any protections to other players within the Sanctuary circle; it does provide a damage debuff of (IIRC) approximately 80% (what I see reported by other players). The primary differences are:
Guardian Fighter shift: damage mitigation from front only and can still continue attacking.
Protection Paladin shift: damage mitigation from 360-degrees, zero anything else (cannot continue attacking, no healing: nothing)
Results
The GF is much more versatile in "tanking" mobs and requires a less skilled DC of any build to be effective
I concur, but for different reasons: GF can continue attacking; Paladin is stuck sitting on his hands. However: the difference in frontal versus 360-degree protection evens it out. My conclusion: Moot - they are basically equal, just in different ways.
The OP, however the has a significantly stronger offensive capabilities, and with a virtuous DC can be used extremely well in dungeons. For the casual gamer the OP will be much more effective for you, you will not need a great build or be heavily enchanted to make this a versatile tank.
This is where the misnomer aspect kicks-in. I get the impression you (OP) do not fully understand the Paladin class as it is affected by the Paragon Tree that is chosen. Unlike every single other class in the game the Paladin's Paragon Tree choice literally (yes I mean literally literally) change the class into a healer *or* (not and) a tank; it is impossible to be both, though some player may try to accomplish this.
With that said the above quote appears to reference the Devotion Paladin based on what the OP is describing. since the OP's intent is to compare tanking ability it is the Protection Paladin that needs to be analyzed and compared to. With that said, my argument is this in response:
The Protection Paladin has the least/worst DPS in the entire game from any class or race, including the Devotion Paladin (yes, really.) The Guardian Fighter is very much better at DPS in this regard; however, the Protection Paladin, if configured to be such, is utterly a brick wall - easily as good a tank (if not even more so) than the Guardian Fighter in terms of sheer survivability (one-shot hits notwithstanding). I propose a test: both a GF and Protection OP configured to be as survivable as possible at the expense of DPS that they will come out the same with a very slight chance of the possibility of the OP out-surviving the GF in the same circumstances, but that would likely be inconclusive.
If the ability to stand there and "take it" in terms of damage received and asking for more makes the OP "more effective" for the "casual gamer" then so be it. But as a "tank" in terms of 'brick wall' status it's a very close call and, for me, my Protection Paladin definitely feels tanker than my Guardian Fighter, both of which are specced for "super-tank." But that's my personal experience.
For the hard core tank the GF really is the way to go though you will struggle much of the way with your severely diminished offensive capabilities.
Perhaps, but I disagree. But what is a "hardcore gamer" other than the race to top of BiS, Boons, and Zone Achievements? I would proffer this presumption: If you prefer being the genuine Bulwark of the party: you want to go Protection Paladin, if you want finer granular control over which mobs you mark and aggro along with better choice of how you fight: Guardian Fighter is definitely the way to go for these primary reasons:
Guardian Fighter has a better variety of Encounter and Daily powers: some buff/debuff and some are DPS-based, a lot of different functional variety. This equates to finer control (more choices) in actual play-style and tactics: when to buff, when to debuff, when to dish DPS, etc.
Protection Paladin has basically only one choice: your at-wills. Many encounter powers deal some DPS but all are primarily for buffing/debuffing utility purposes, all dailies except one are utility-based; you are basically only a mace-swinger for the most part. Encounters are used to buff/debuff the party/hostiles and often cannot be seen directly except for some weird eye-candy on the ground, etc. It is a feats-based class as that is where most of your true abilities come from and are heavily influenced.
Because of this you must rely very heavily on class features and feats to proc and this requires a lot of strategy in your game-play: when to use a particular encounter and when to use are particular daily. You are a really poor player of Protection Paladin if you just spam these encounters willy-nilly without careful thought and planning with anticipation. There's some brain-work and patience required to play the Protection Paladin (Bulwark branch) at full efficiency. Less so with Justice or Light branches.
With all that said: as I compare ALL THREE: My Guardian Fighter, My Devotion Paladin, and my Protection Paladin I have come to this personal conclusion: Devotion Paladin doesn't even come close in any kind of comparison with a GF. It is almost literally comparing apples to oranges: it is trying too hard to mix oil and water: it just won't work.
My Protection Paladin and Guardian Fighter are literally nose-to-nose in how effective they are and what their capabilities are. Their primary singular difference is literally (and I really do mean literally) the play-styles between them.
Which is the easier class to play? That's entirely subjective by player preference and choice.
Which is more fun to play" See the previous sentence.
As for the Original Poster's comparison to the Devotion Paladin rather than the Protection Paladin: I do not blame him (or her) as anyone who does not actually play the Oathbound Paladin will likely make the same mistake: presume it works a lot like every other class: Paragon Trees only slightly change how a class is played. But unlike every other class in the game the Oathbound Paladin Paragon Tree choice literally changes the class - entirely - into either a healer or a tank'd fighter.
Every encounter power and daily has two completely separate and different abilities and affects - which ability and affect you get is based on which Paragon tree is chosen. So the same encounter power might provide a heal on you and party when on the Devotion tree, but the same encounter might provide a debuf on the mob and damage resistance for you on the Protection tree.
Wrong on both accounts. A Oath of Protection shift mechanic does heal anyone in the sanctuary and it does protect anyone in the sanctuary circle. Allies within it also gain 20% damage reduction.
With that being said, as an OP, DP should be up close to 100% of the time, thus you don't need shift for anything other than heals + prism.
As far as DPS, that is true single target, but in a dungeon with sufficient adds, a properly speced OP will produce high end damage. Just did some sub 20 minute eCC and eToS runs with some high DPS folks and came in 2nd in one run and a close 3rd in the other. A DC can't even come close to those numbers.
A devotion OP can't tank. They don't have any agro generators and don't have DP. Without either of those your not really tanking.
The main reason Protector Paladins have dps cuz they armor penetration is bugged and if they have even 1% they do dmg with Divine Portector and Binding Oath to her self count as DPS on paingiver so if you remove those from ACT you will laugth at paladins dmg. I think soon devs will fix it cuz the so called Self egoistic Super DPS player will set this as high priority.
If they fix this bug 70% of Protectors Paladin dps will go away from paingiver.
Burning guidance is an aggro generator, if you don't believe me, get the boon yourself and see what it does. Heroism gives you the ability, if used when entering combat to take some hits and so long as you can keep it up, you can most definitely tank effectively in t1's as heal pally. T2's is though, as I said, another matter entirely.
For tanking I could compare in several ways (keep agro,dmg reduction, shield, temp hp etc) but i really dont think is necessary, both can do good, they have different play styles and thats it.
In buffs OP have several ways to buff party damage like
Aura of Courage bonus radiant damage equivalent to a 20% dmg,
Aura of wisdom 25% recharge speed that means more control, utility, heals and ~10% dmg
Flash of light and radiant champion - chance for reduce even more cds
Aura gifts 25% of your power to allies ~ 8% dmg (10% but its reduced if the group already have alot of power)
Bane - 30% more damage for bosses
Summing up (1.2*1.1*1.08*1.3) its an 85% increase damage for party + movement +reduced cooldowns and OPs can get that without compromising survivability.
I know GF have some buffs too but i think is not that high (ITF gives bonus based on DR) and they dont stack very well (like CA ).
If possible someone could gather GFs party buff so we can compare.
Itf rank 4 give 100% dr as DMG bonus if you start with lung +50 % dmr you can get 80 % dr after this just load itf = 80 % dmg bonus to your pt w/o combat advantage and other debuffing stuff like tide of iron commande strike inspiring leader crushing pin etc.....
ITF get works in all %DR? i ask that because normal (sheet) DR its like 30-40% and you only get higher than 80% with bufs...
also if it works in all DR it gets more than 80%? because technically your DR can go way higher than 80% its just the damage you get that cant be reduced more than 80%.
if possible which one of the others bufs/debufs are reliable and how much extra damage they add?
I've only ever seen DP "report" damage when grouped with a GF running KV. The damage was off the charts but was clearly bogus. I agree that is a bug but has no impact on actual damage as it was just reporting incorrectly.
Binding Oath however, only accounts for 25% of damage and if you look at the tooltip, you are doing 20% of the damage taken as AOE damage. Used properly, that is a LOT of damage you can deal out. There is nothing to fix here, from what I've seen the damage is legit and there are no phantom damage like with DP.
1: Generating as much aggro as possible.
2: maintaining aggro.
3: mitigating incoming damage well enough to stay upright.
If your Heal-adin can't do the first two, it's NOT a tank, no matter what it might be able to survive.
Exactly and atm, burning guidance does just that. It generates massive amounts of aggro on a well played devotion OP and it maintains that aggro as well. The third pointer is the real issue in t2's though.
by which I mean - they would get their defenses boosted.
Join me in my escapade to remove ArPen from the game. Devs are using class features and feats to adjust classes piece by piece instead of just doing the obvious and completely getting rid of a stat that is incredibly harsh to defense based toons.
As a GF, OP, DC or GWF, the answer is to simply ignore defense whenever possible because regardless of what you do, the best you can hope to achieve is to take 9% less damage than a CW. Unless he has shield, in which case you'll be taking 16% more damage regardless of what you do.
The GF can buff a team's damage in more significant ways, but only in short bursts. The tankadin can provide more consistent incoming damage reducing buffs/debuffs.
On a tankadin, their tab ability acts as an AoE taunt AND further increases their damage resistance while also reflecting some damage back at enemies. A GF's tab ability is more of a single target taunt + damage increase vs that target.
One power that really tips the scales, IMO, in the tankadin's favor, however, is templar's wrath - an AoE stun, which also deals damage and grants you a ton of temporary hitpoints - makes for a great opener. Their much easier access to heals also makes playing a tankadin more forgiving.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
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OPs Shift: "Gain 60% Damage Resistance"
GFs Shift: "Block 80% of all incoming damage"
That would mean OPs shield increases the base layer of defense, which cant go over 80%, while GFs shield creates another layer of defense. However since skill descriptions were not always 100% accurate I want to ask: Does it work like that, or OPs shift is also another layer of DR? Because if its not then GFs shield is unspeakably better line of defense, than OPs
GF's shield *should be* 'unspeakably' better than OP's - it only blocks from the front; the OP's blocks in a full 360 - so it makes sense in a logical way, mathematical way, emotional way, and even imaginary way.
If you have armp then you some weird thing will happen the 20 k dmg will get boosted by your arp i think from your power bonus too but i am not sure about the power .
GF Encounter KV your ptm take 50% less dmg and you will got from those 50 % dmg only 20% dmg at rank 4 your DR have an effect on what dmg you will gain lets say y have 50% dr then your buddy will take 100k dmg from 100k you will got 50k from it you will gain 10k dmg affected by your shild (80% dr) and your base DR 50% final number is 1000 dmg from 100k .
KV is toggle skill paladins DP is daly skill.
I rather run any dungeon without an OP because 80% of them just use relentless avenger or whatever the name is and scatter mobs everywhere and im really starting to find it annoying, whenever i play my Trapper, my CW and my DC... Yea sorry but i hate having a mob suddenly in my back if not more.
Last time i was in a run with a Cleric sunbursting and the OP sunbursting, we counted more deaths than ever, there was no way for me to freeze mobs, everytime i was using a Singularity and putting Icy Terrain on landing, PATATRA one of them was scattering everything.
So no OP for me, its personal choice, i hate this.
I ran a lot of dungeons for all my toons and i probably met 2 decent OP's that weren't scattering everything everywhere.
So i guess its a personal choice, but whenever i can run without an OP, im happy. Yes GF dies more probably but at least that's some real tanking i appreciate. As a CW i think ITF is one of those skills that make me like GF better. Healing GF running KV is challenging but possible. Running all over the place after scattered mobs or trying to rez people dead because they ran after scattered mobs or healing a party spread all over the room isnt really effective from my point of view
The problem I see is people don't know how to play with a Paladin tanking their group yet. A Paladin needs more setup to engage mobs as they do not have a ranged taunt. What i find annoying in PUGS is some TR throwing knives at the mobs or a CW tossing Conduit of Ice on mobs before i am ready to engage. OP's need to get in there and get Templar's Wrath off for the temp HP and stun so they can taunt effectively at close range. That is why I bet a lot of OP's are using Relentless Avenger to dive in and get aggro immediately.
Also, OP's get AP by doing damage. Relentless Avenger, when hitting multiple mobs gives, nice AP gain so the OP can use Divine Protector faster/more often.
I've personally stopped using Relentless Avenger because I started to annoy myself with it lol. I would suggest OP's find another way of engaging mobs. My loadout is Templar's/Smite/Burning Light. I walk within aggro range and use TEmplar's for the Temp Hp and the stun. Then, I taunt with Divine Call giving me aggro and follow with a charged Burning Light for the damage/AP gain and awesome CC. This will usually leave the mobs CC'ed for at least 2-4 seconds allowing my party to attack safely. Also, just leave Binding Oath off your bar for now. The math is off on that ability and it seems to do 200% damage through mitigation or something and it seems to be just luck if you survive it.
I also have a GF that is equally geared which I run through T2's just as much. I can agree that they are easier to heal because they are more static and you don't have to calculate their temp HP.
Into the fray counts only the base damage resistance on your character sheet.
GFs are MUCH better at maintaining agro than the OBP and holding mobs in place so the DPSers and controllers can do their job. However, he/she is much more prone to large random damage spikes and doesn't have cheese immortal temp HP to allow for the GF to make errors. A good GF can also substantially increase party DPS as well as offer a good amount of his own compared to the OBP.
If you have a GF in your party, I advise you have at least 2 supports for T2s and 1 for the T1s
If you have an OBP Protector in your party I strongly suggest you pick a solid offtank preferably a Sentinel GWF, but a tanky destroyer or an Instigator will do. Most of your typical DPSers will get one-two shot by trash mobs - hence a good offtank can deal with the extra trash while requiring little attention for healers.