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Geas and Precedent:

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  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    kangkeok wrote: »
    Yes..thats because astral shield function differently..its use to absorbed dmg so u have a better time healing...its a tool to make ur life easier and save ur party..same goes to gea..if it stop red spot from emerging, it decrease the risk of dmg done to ur party...all in all..they are both just a tool for DC to use to ease their life..and remember..using geas on boss doesnt mean u can dps him without breaking the spell..also..its not easy to use..everytime u going to use..the party have to stop dps to allow the geas to work( not mention those DoT that keeps ticking)...if pally encounter synergize with it..then so be it..its done not solely with DC but other class involved...i wouldnt call it OP..

    Nope, try again. Astral shield is used to prevent people from dying in one hit from a boss attack, nothing less, nothing more. It's not used to completely disable one part of the fight indefinitely until players decide it's time to kill the boss. In PvE, npcs should dictate the pace of the fight, not you.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    kangkeok wrote: »
    Yes..thats because astral shield function differently..its use to absorbed dmg so u have a better time healing...its a tool to make ur life easier and save ur party..same goes to gea..if it stop red spot from emerging, it decrease the risk of dmg done to ur party...all in all..they are both just a tool for DC to use to ease their life..and remember..using geas on boss doesnt mean u can dps him without breaking the spell..also..its not easy to use..everytime u going to use..the party have to stop dps to allow the geas to work( not mention those DoT that keeps ticking)...if pally encounter synergize with it..then so be it..its done not solely with DC but other class involved...i wouldnt call it OP..
    Difficult to use...please.
    Step 1: DC slots geas.
    Step 2: somebody in party with a microphone uses push to talk to dictate the pace of the fight, when its time to geas boss, they say geas and the party knows to stop dpsing boss.
    Step 3: Cheese.
    You honestly think those 3 steps are difficult?
  • blackxxwolf3blackxxwolf3 Member Posts: 1,539 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    It is also used for cheesing 2/3 of the t2 last bosses.

    the only bosses ive veer thought of using it on was the scorpions.doing things legit is fun.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    the only bosses ive veer thought of using it on was the scorpions.doing things legit is fun.
    That means you admitting it is not legit to use geas, if you say doing it legit is fun which is why you have never used it anywhere else. Therefor, any argument you make in favour of protecting geas is invalid as you have already admitted its an exploit.
  • blackxxwolf3blackxxwolf3 Member Posts: 1,539 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    That means you admitting it is not legit to use geas, if you say doing it legit is fun which is why you have never used it anywhere else. Therefor, any argument you make in favour of protecting geas is invalid as you have already admitted its an exploit.
    i never said using geas isnt legit. in fact why dont you go message panderus right now and ask him if you feel it isnt legit. go make a bug report if it isnt legit. go make a support ticket if your so against it and stop trying to tell us how to play a game.
  • kangkeokkangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    diogene0 wrote: »
    Nope, try again. Astral shield is used to prevent people from dying in one hit from a boss attack, nothing less, nothing more. It's not used to completely disable one part of the fight indefinitely until players decide it's time to kill the boss. In PvE, npcs should dictate the pace of the fight, not you.

    What different does ur comment made with mine..absorbed dmg for easier heal...and preventing ppl from one shot so u can heal..and Why not? if ur team succeed to coordinate and letting u to land a success gea?..isnt it the reward for ur effort?..also..using gea is an option..u dun have to use it in every fight..and it makes fight longer and tiresome..if u want to do it the hard way, its ur choice..just like astral shield in example..if u dun wanna use AS but just HW/BoH..its still ur choice..u will just have a harder time..also the developer dictate how this games work too..not u?

    Edit: and tell that to CW that in PVE the npc should dictate the fight..stop use icyterrain...
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    kangkeok wrote: »
    What different does ur comment made with mine..absorbed dmg for easier heal...and preventing ppl from one shot so u can heal..and Why not? if ur team succeed to coordinate and letting u to land a success gea?..isnt it the reward for ur effort?..also..using gea is an option..u dun have to use it in every fight..and it makes fight longer and tiresome..if u want to do it the hard way, its ur choice..just like astral shield in example..if u dun wanna use AS but just HW/BoH..its still ur choice..u will just have a harder time..also the developer dictate how this games work too..not u?

    Edit: and tell that to CW that in PVE the npc should dictate the fight..stop use icyterrain...

    Icy terrain does not CC bosses, when using icy terrain, the boss still dictates the flow of combat.
    And black, you said, "doing things legit is fun" directly after saying that the only time you have ever thought of using geas is on scorps. That implies that the rest of the time you have fun because you are doing things legit and that geas itself is an exploit.
  • kangkeokkangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Icy terrain does not CC bosses, when using icy terrain, the boss still dictates the flow of combat.

    If only u understand my point..else i got nothing to say...
  • vaelynxvaelynx Member Posts: 182 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    i never said using geas isnt legit. in fact why dont you go message panderus right now and ask him if you feel it isnt legit. go make a bug report if it isnt legit. go make a support ticket if your so against it and stop trying to tell us how to play a game.

    See, it isn't legit because it makes a class be better than a CW at something. And that **** just isn't legit.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    vaelynx wrote: »
    See, it isn't legit because it makes a class be better than a CW at something. And that **** just isn't legit.
    Honestly, its sad that people think CW is best at everything when it isn't true. CW has decent damage, but it excels at control. GWF does more damage though and so does a decent tr, sw would if the class was actually performing properly and the class does need a buff. It has decent survivability due to this control, but is still less tanky then a good gf/op tank/perma tr. This isn't about CW's being upset because a dc can do something better then a CW, its got to do with the fact that this ability is game breakingly broken.
  • kangkeokkangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    vaelynx wrote: »
    See, it isn't legit because it makes a class be better than a CW at something. And that **** just isn't legit.

    Actualy, u CW got ur bunch of mob to CC..and its a whole bunch..which DC cant..Dc could only CC a single target without anyone hitting it in 1st place..which CW cant..so in a boss fight..we could CC the whole room if the party has DC and CW..without a CW, we could only CC the boss but not the adds...without a DC, we could only CC the adds..so i guess CW still retain his control power and DC still doesnt have the ability to CC bunch of mob, seem alrite to me...DC still not able to do a CW job ..
  • blackxxwolf3blackxxwolf3 Member Posts: 1,539 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    vaelynx wrote: »
    See, it isn't legit because it makes a class be better than a CW at something. And that **** just isn't legit.

    then go tell panderus. not us. we dont wanna hear you complain about it. panderus might.
  • blackxxwolf3blackxxwolf3 Member Posts: 1,539 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Icy terrain does not CC bosses, when using icy terrain, the boss still dictates the flow of combat.
    And black, you said, "doing things legit is fun" directly after saying that the only time you have ever thought of using geas is on scorps. That implies that the rest of the time you have fun because you are doing things legit and that geas itself is an exploit.
    my point with that was its fun doing things legit as in general not using exploits i was referring to hr exploits which are way different than this. and yes i said it wrong im sorry. ill word it better next time.
  • query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    vaelynx wrote: »
    See, it isn't legit because it makes a class be better than a CW at something. And that **** just isn't legit.

    There are no upvotes here. I am hand-carving you one....
  • viridian86viridian86 Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I can't handle the amount of *****ing from both sides in this thread. :(
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,415 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    kangkeok wrote: »
    Actualy, u CW got ur bunch of mob to CC..and its a whole bunch..which DC cant..Dc could only CC a single target without anyone hitting it in 1st place..which CW cant..so in a boss fight..we could CC the whole room if the party has DC and CW..without a CW, we could only CC the boss but not the adds...without a DC, we could only CC the adds..so i guess CW still retain his control power and DC still doesnt have the ability to CC bunch of mob, seem alrite to me...DC still not able to do a CW job ..

    so no space for paladin devotion?come on .
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,415 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Honestly, its sad that people think CW is best at everything when it isn't true. CW has decent damage, but it excels at control. GWF does more damage though and so does a decent tr, sw would if the class was actually performing properly and the class does need a buff. It has decent survivability due to this control, but is still less tanky then a good gf/op tank/perma tr. This isn't about CW's being upset because a dc can do something better then a CW, its got to do with the fact that this ability is game breakingly broken.

    sw-gwf-tr do more damage than me and i am fine with this and happy.my job is other to control( you hear me lostmauth sets?) i have seen greatly increase control with two artifacts lostmauth for control bonus +valindra set and tod boon offhand feature stat and wisdom
    ( valindra set should have even more control strength to become more viable). AND about opressive force i saw negative posts i disagree with those posts for me is the emergency spell and a good opener to freeze later the mobs.(go check first how you can gather the adds to one place with opressive then talk about spread )thanks.
  • pricetagcloudpricetagcloud Member Posts: 130 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Whoever thinks DCs are healers by virtue of the "Cleric" part being in their name, or their position as a priest of sorts is wrong. They are leaders (buff/debuffers) who off-heal and have a potential to take the role of healer depending on the path/tree.

    If you really want CWs to have the control, then fine you get it, but no damage can be dealt.
    DCs can only buff/debuff. No damage. No CC.
    GWF can only do dmg. no buff/debuff, no heal. no CC (already there [joke])
    GF can only tank. No dmg, buff/debuff, heal

    etc. etc. etc.

    This is what people complain about anyways, so let's just do that instead!

    Except there's a problem. Because everyone does what their role is suppose to do, you can only party up on any and all content. Hell by that logic, GWF might have it the easiest then; at least easier than everyone else.

    Most people solo content because of there being less hassle to communicate, going at own pace, whatever reason you might have. Most of the time in MMOs, people solo content, so that's why there's a variety of powers for each class and significant if not notable, damage!

    Geas is an awesome spell, and it gives DCs an advantage when partying up with a group now. Just like a CW who can CC+DPS the HAMSTER out of trash mobs getting hand picked because of that specialty. It should work that way for DCs, being able to stop a boss in its tracks. Sounds like those leaders in mythologies. 90% of the time, the leader is the one to take out the boss of baddies. It's poetic really that they can CC a CC-immune creature.

    Why would you want more CC when you deal plenty of damage as a CW? or maybe you want more damage when you are a CC master? This is what bothers me, that a class that is adept to CC compared to nearly every other class can do a substantial amount of damage. Take away the CC and this would still be a great ranged AoE striker even compared to SW or HR if you took away their CC as well. (It should be toned down more imo.)

    But if a particular class or classes had great CC and no damage, then solo content would be nigh impossible.

    I am appalled by the dichotomy that is being used when it comes to partying up for dungeons based on class and that godforsaken item level gear score bs. "LF3M 3k+ for eLOL and the like". Do you know what percentage has 3k+ right now? You severely limit yourself and the selection pool based on obscene requirements. I've done all the dungeons at the minimum ilvl required and still got through them while still contributing to the team in a big way if only in one part. Why not help lesser-geared folk with getting better gear and thus get a bigger selection pool in LFG chat. Crazy talk, I know.

    tl;dr version:

    1.)Every class should have a nice blend of CC, utility, heals, tanking, and damage with each one favoring one or two of these general fields and still hold their own personal advantage in solo content that keeps them in line with other classes level progression.

    2.)Geas is just helping compliment what the DC already has as a leader. Kudos to them.

    3.)Help weaklings get better gear or you limit the number of people to choose from in the future.
    SW: Callisto Shedevil. Soul Binder Temptation 16.1k GS
    GUILD: ~Myrmidons~

    Would Love to party up with people for pretty much anything!
  • kangkeokkangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    so no space for paladin devotion?come on .

    Please..when ppl discuss things about Ford and Toyota..ofcoz they dun talk about BMW..well.. u get my point...
  • suicidalgodotsuicidalgodot Member Posts: 2,465 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Ah, what a rare tasty liquid we have here: CW tears...

    ...basically on-topic: The dev's give a **** about basic fundamental rules of how to design a game (like: Build on what has grown, only one major change at a time, don't overdo tricks, keep your longterm costumers satisfied,...) - why should should they care about such an arbitrary one like "Control to the CW only"?
  • drkbodhidrkbodhi Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,378 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    diogene0 wrote: »
    Geas should indeed respect CC immunity, and it comes from a DC player. It's really a lousy mechanic cheesing combats a lot. It should simply be fixed and respect CC immunity and not being given to another class.

    And the lostmauth set should get a balance check because adding a straight 20% damage to anyone wearing it is absurd, given that getting rid of gear sets was one of the reason for the lvl cap increase.

    That's for the current balance concerns in pve.

    I do not know what you guys are even thinking.

    Geas IS A CLERIC SPELL. In ADnD, Geas is used to put a person on a task that they do not, will not and cannot ever do without this spell. It is not supposed to be broken until this task is completed or the infected dies trying. Geas is more like "brain-washing" than it is control.

    Please read up on your lore before you post something that would not happen in DnD. Not to mention CWs have too much power in this game, just like SWs had too much in Mod 5. TRs have been nerfed to one tree, SWs nerfed to do 60% damage (which still exceeds anything a TR can do).

    Here is a solution to the CW issues. The casting range of every spell you use, is 3 feet. No more standing back and nuking from a far.

    Don't like that? Stop messing with other classes and keep playing your own. Envy and jealousy are ugly things.
    ez0sf4K.png
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    Leadership Council of Civil Anarchy
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  • query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    its got to do with the fact that this ability is game breakingly broken.

    This would be a lot easier to take seriously if you were not the OP and one could not simply click on page one and see your opinion which boils down to, "This seems broken. But if WAI give it to CWs!!!!!" Which really sort of implies that it is only broken because your favored class (which is totally not OP even though people build groups with 3 of them) does not get to use it. I am sure you realize why it is difficult to take your opinion seriously at this point.....
  • vaelynxvaelynx Member Posts: 182 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    drkbodhi wrote: »
    I do not know what you guys are even thinking.

    Geas IS A CLERIC SPELL. In ADnD, Geas is used to put a person on a task that they do not, will not and cannot ever do without this spell. It is not supposed to be broken until this task is completed or the infected dies trying. Geas is more like "brain-washing" than it is control.

    Please read up on your lore before you post something that would not happen in DnD. Not to mention CWs have too much power in this game, just like SWs had too much in Mod 5. TRs have been nerfed to one tree, SWs nerfed to do 60% damage (which still exceeds anything a TR can do).

    Here is a solution to the CW issues. The casting range of every spell you use, is 3 feet. No more standing back and nuking from a far.

    Don't like that? Stop messing with other classes and keep playing your own. Envy and jealousy are ugly things.

    > SWs had too much [power] in Mod 5

    > SW nerfed to do 60% damage (which still exceeds anything a TR can do)

    ....

    Dude, are you for reals.
  • sangrinesangrine Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    drkbodhi wrote: »
    Geas IS A CLERIC SPELL. In ADnD, Geas is used to put a person on a task that they do not, will not and cannot ever do without this spell. It is not supposed to be broken until this task is completed or the infected dies trying. Geas is more like "brain-washing" than it is control.

    brainwashing is a type of mind control.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_control
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    drkbodhi wrote: »
    I do not know what you guys are even thinking.

    Geas IS A CLERIC SPELL. In ADnD, Geas is used to put a person on a task that they do not, will not and cannot ever do without this spell. It is not supposed to be broken until this task is completed or the infected dies trying. Geas is more like "brain-washing" than it is control.

    Please read up on your lore before you post something that would not happen in DnD. Not to mention CWs have too much power in this game, just like SWs had too much in Mod 5. TRs have been nerfed to one tree, SWs nerfed to do 60% damage (which still exceeds anything a TR can do).

    Here is a solution to the CW issues. The casting range of every spell you use, is 3 feet. No more standing back and nuking from a far.

    Don't like that? Stop messing with other classes and keep playing your own. Envy and jealousy are ugly things.

    This isn't a lore issue. This isn't a CW issue either. This is a major gameplay issue though. I don't really care if in pen and paper D&D there's a cleric spell called lap dance, and while the DC is dancing, monsters are charmed and can't do anything. In this MMO, with the current action-based gameplay, dealing with bosses, red zones and stuff like that, is a major element of the fight. No spell (be it a CW, DC, SW, or blue-ribbon pig spell) should be able to disable a boss entirely.
  • maegmaagmaegmaag Member Posts: 332 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Well, am not sayin i know anything about dnd 4+ besides this game but, when someone brings up dnd geas/quest spell and its definition, geas should never work on a scorpion (condition: creature must be able to understand the caster). Then, it cant work on Traven Blackdagger also, simply because he is reanimated (condition: has to be a living creature).

    And since we have NO such mechanic here like SR or saving throws and, mainly, the original spell effects (and conditions required), only things left are control immunity (no effect at all) and control resistance (shorter duration). So even breaking all the geas/quest rules, either its duration should be barely noticeable on an epic boss (unfortunately twould break the boss mechanic anyway, thx to almost no VI/mob scripting; also c Slam/MoC precedent), whose level is higher than the casters on top of it, or it should respect control immunity. In the end, it starts to be close to sleeping skeletons... oh, they can be dazed already so, nvm.

    Am not against mechanics improvements (actually i hate the fact this game lacks too many), but such behavior renders the game mechanic unstable, unpredictable, unfinished and undefined, whats the main issue here, followed by no dev notes (rather be silent than admitting its not coded properly by stating how this and that is supposed to eventually work - and that should be done the moment it hits the preview shard).

    Effects should be clearly categorized, defined and described. Then a complete immunity would be as rare as a tarrasque, with mobs (and PCs) having defined offense and defense. We sort of have "hold/root/immobilize", "daze", "stun", "shock" - the Slam and MoC property interrupting even epic bosses in the past, "slow", "knockdown", "knockback", "weird interrupt"..., but, and thats the issue, almost exclusively (elven battle or courage breaker being exceptions...) affected only by general either "control" immunity or "control" resistance. And if nothing else, the description should clearly state it goes thru immunity, same as Courage Breaker skill description states (and i dont know if it works on epic bosses - if its not, the worse the issue is).

    That and little more being part of this game and dev-user relations and we would not have such discussions (but hey, the forum would be too quiet then, right).

    Also, why DC and not CW and such pointless fights, CWs got imprisonment instead and, if anything, both classes have geas spell in dnd, no matter hows it called or what level it should be. Imprisonment should have longer duration tho, in both PvE and PvP (doubled, affected by control resistance/power).

    Anyway, unless this game mechanics gets an overhaul/improvement, i consider such PCs power behavior malfunctioning/out of concept at least (c my 1st post in this thread).
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  • kacsaneverkacsanever Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    diogene0 wrote: »
    Geas should indeed respect CC immunity, and it comes from a DC player. It's really a lousy mechanic cheesing combats a lot. It should simply be fixed and respect CC immunity and not being given to another class.
    ...

    I add +1 to this and as a DC, too. I hate this skill simply b/c of its non WAI behavior. It is a nice but hard to use/need coordination skill in SoT or Kessel, but a no-way to be WAI in LOL. Easy to solve, just respect CC immunity and voila, problem solved.
  • kacsaneverkacsanever Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    diogene0 wrote: »
    ... In this MMO, with the current action-based gameplay, dealing with bosses, red zones and stuff like that, is a major element of the fight. No spell (be it a CW, DC, SW, or blue-ribbon pig spell) should be able to disable a boss entirely.

    And +1 to this....
  • blackxxwolf3blackxxwolf3 Member Posts: 1,539 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    if you guys have such a problem with it then dont use it. its not like its useful in pvp how does it affect you if your not using it? its the same with politics everyone wants to change others lives without thinking.
  • kacsaneverkacsanever Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    if you guys have such a problem with it then dont use it. its not like its useful in pvp how does it affect you if your not using it? its the same with politics everyone wants to change others lives without thinking.

    I refused/refuse/will refuse to use it as long as it is not fixed. I just hate the current situation where 99% of the parties expect me to use it. It makes me been a sad panda...
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