As a CW I have to really play bad to lose to a TR now, GF, GWF, and HR are all more of a threat. Even a cleric is more likely to kill me than a TR. I don't hate TRs at all, I just hate my ******ed teammates who think sending more people to stand still on a node and not move around the node to try and find the TR is a good idea.
Edit: Except in IWD, with no nodes to show me where TRs are and all the stupid companion bonus's these trolls are sporting they are a nightmare out there.
As a CW I have to really play bad to lose to a TR now...
As a CW you have to really play bad to lose to almost any class right now . Jokes apart, CW with shield on tab and burst is in a pretty sweet spot to face TRs.
I use daggers to detect them through the visual effect of the enchant hitting, then pursue. Then use brain to predict their path and carefully stack my damage, dodge their big hits when i can (SE going through anything apart) and play smart using my sprint carefully, while they spam at-sills and spam dodge rolls.
Trained and from module 1 to module 3 fought permas through the old "if you can predict where the invisible TR is, you can fight back. See? Balance".
False. It's player skill overcoming flawed combat mechanic.
The point is, the class so far relied on braindead stealth gameplay where "i can attack you, you can attack me only if you outplay me".
Stealth reveal was introduced cause stealth usage was supposed to be toned down in module 4 when TRs got their damage back+4th dodge roll+longer rolls+deflection buff exc...
Now it's not working and lil demonmonger can cry and scream as loud as he can, it will hopefully be back.
But i like when someone simply says a non-working feature should be back and another player replies screaming like a spoiled brat.
As a CW you have to really play bad to lose to almost any class right now . Jokes apart, CW with shield on tab and burst is in a pretty sweet spot to face TRs.
I use daggers to detect them through the visual effect of the enchant hitting, then pursue. Then use brain to predict their path and carefully stack my damage, dodge their big hits when i can (SE going through anything apart) and play smart using my sprint carefully, while they spam at-sills and spam dodge rolls.
Trained and from module 1 to module 3 fought permas through the old "if you can predict where the invisible TR is, you can fight back. See? Balance".
False. It's player skill overcoming flawed combat mechanic.
The point is, the class so far relied on braindead stealth gameplay where "i can attack you, you can attack me only if you outplay me".
Stealth reveal was introduced cause stealth usage was supposed to be toned down in module 4 when TRs got their damage back+4th dodge roll+longer rolls+deflection buff exc...
Now it's not working and lil demonmonger can cry and scream as loud as he can, it will hopefully be back.
But i like when someone simply says a non-working feature should be back and another player replies screaming like a spoiled brat.
Stealth duration was reduced from 6s to 5s though, iirc. Any TR which goes non Exe build will have to take TC passive to prevent stealth lose from dmg, else any AoE will just screw you oever all day.
They need to lower LB cd from 20s to ~5.5 like CW Desintegrate and make it 80-90' range, then you will see happy TR all over the place
Stealth duration was reduced from 6s to 5s though, iirc. Any TR which goes non Exe build will have to take TC passive to prevent stealth lose from dmg, else any AoE will just screw you oever all day.
They need to lower LB cd from 20s to ~5.5 like CW Desintegrate and make it 80-90' range, then you will see happy TR all over the place
Well it's kinda nonsense as a argument "CWs are OP now so make us as OP as them please".
I just got hit by 20k disintegrate+19k passive storm spell proc by a tank CW with shield on tab and perfect+ negation in GG through 91k HP and 43-86% tenacity 32% deflect 20% DR+ countless scars procs.
I would say fix the BS flying around when it's clearly too cheesy and out of place. That's called balance.
Like TR SE being a sure nuke on SWs/GWFs that can take away 80% of my 91k HP, again, through 43-86% tenacity, cannot avoid due to lack of proper dodge and only takes the TR to press 1 button to achieve the result.
What we need is not 1s stealth reduction but the stealth reveal the devs introduced as a feature, to be working again.
I don't see the big issue in having to slot one passive to still have your stealth working most of the time.
I see balance when a TR with 75% deflect severity, 4 long immunity rolls and high burst DPS+ highest mobility+ other tools to increase survivability depending on path, loses his stealth temporary after attacking, giving the enemy a chance to actually fight back without resorting to "prediction" and other stuff that are NOT game mechanics but pure skill of the player overcoming said mechanics.
The fact that i can outplay many CWs or many TRs and still win does not make SS procs, disintegrate, SE piercing, and other cheesy mechanics, less cheesy.
Ahahah OP is the best class until 60 and then ohohoh....TRs rule again..That piercing dmg my friend with full gear kills a guy in 3 shots of cloud of steel like seriously...
I myself don't have much issues with TR like previous mods (even though the run away like scared little kids at a haunted house to get invis back gets fairly annoying). My issues now and have been for some time, is the spamming. We get 3 encounters, 2 at-wills and 2 dailies and I'll see people spam the same at-will, same encounter and same daily everytime. I.E. CW, Icy ray, Ice knife and either strangle or repel. Basically, any spell that prones an enemy is spammed. I understand the validation for some to do so but I mean, come on..... You can't really say you know how to play your class if you can only spam the same encounter an entire pvp match (and every PVP match you play in). So again, my issues isn't any one class but those players who do nothing but spam.
I am a Faithful DC, in a 1V1 I can just use Geas and laugh at any class while they attack me but don't do enough damage to kill anyone either. In most 2v1's and 3v1's I can Geas one and still survive fairly well depending on the grouping. 2 or more cw's or Hr's on me though and it's gg.
TR's role in pvp now is where it should be, IMO. This games balance has always been an issue and do we really see it being fixed anytime soon? I mean, I had a Pally almost one hit me the other day in PVP dom. Have 2-3 cw's, hr's, gf's and/or gwf's spamming prone spells and my stacks of faith won't even proc.
Why most people won't play PVP in this game. Between the imbalances of the classes and the BIS premades (lack of matchmaking), this games PVP isn't very fun. I just hope they change some things before the Champions League starts.
What we need is not 1s stealth reduction but the stealth reveal the devs introduced as a feature, to be working again..
Yes please.
I'm tired of my defensive mechanic being useful. Please give permanent sight through stealth to defeat the purpose of it entirely.
Already considering we lost stealth duration and set bonuses, which already makes permastealth ridiculously difficult unless you're spamming Gloaming Cut.
Then again, I'm on the forums, and the only TR build the forums will recognize is the 1-shotting 700 dodge roll 32847% Deflect build.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
Yes please.
I'm tired of my defensive mechanic being useful. Please give permanent sight through stealth to defeat the purpose of it entirely.
Already considering we lost stealth duration and set bonuses, which already makes permastealth ridiculously difficult unless you're spamming Gloaming Cut.
Then again, I'm on the forums, and the only TR build the forums will recognize is the 1-shotting 700 dodge roll 32847% Deflect build.
I could only get my dodges up to 634, but I did get my deflect up to 37945%.
Yes please.
I'm tired of my defensive mechanic being useful. Please give permanent sight through stealth to defeat the purpose of it entirely.
Already considering we lost stealth duration and set bonuses, which already makes permastealth ridiculously difficult unless you're spamming Gloaming Cut.
Then again, I'm on the forums, and the only TR build the forums will recognize is the 1-shotting 700 dodge roll 32847% Deflect build.
"Your defense mechanic" you mean outside 4 long dodge rolls with fast stamina regeneration, 75% deflect severity plus dazes OR ITC, fast movement, mixed in a different way depending on the build?
Also, permanent sight my ***, sorry if i'm rude. Reveal is 2s after you attack.
TRs were crying rivers of tears when reveal was announced, saying the class was DEAD. And what happened? TRs using their brain were still top dogs in PvP and the class was still very strong and on top even after reveal implementation, demonstrating that all the cry whenever someone says that they will not be invisible most of the time anymore, is just the iron will to do not let go a cheesy overused mechanic just cause it's convenient and easy to use.
Reveal did not break the class in module 5, it would not break the class now, plus if needed, there are other tools you can buff if needed.
It kind of reminds me of a TR in module 2. After IV sentinels started ruling the game. In a match, he said:
"it's totally unbalanced now. In module 1 i could kite GWFs forever, now i get caught and killed with FLS/threat rush".
So, it was totally fine and balanced when he was able to kite a GWF forever, but was not fine if he could get killed.
Or a TR vs me on my GWF a few days ago, in domination, i sprinted (for the lulz) and somehow his SE bugged out or something and took away "only" 40% of my HP from almost full health, and he went
"how the fk did you dodge that?"
Like seriously, he was disappointed cause he didn't almost-oneshot me pressing one button through my shift.
Or another mod3 TR, doing his usual perma rotation, getting caught cause i just figured out with experience where he was each time, and he went
"how can you see me in stealth?What are you using?"
Like: hey, you should not be able to fight back!!
Would be as if a module 3 GWF would tell you "what's wrong with roar spam? Learn to predict when i will fire it and where, and move out of its range in advance.
Yeah, sure.
I'm against cheesy stuff. Be it TR, GWF,GF,CW,HR,DC, name it.
I like skillful play, not easy mode cheese.
But i understand why some players defend some mechanics as if their life depends on it.
I fully support pando on this. Stealth in Neverwinter is the worst imbalanced thing I've ever seen in any MMO. Being able to attack from stealth without becoming visible LMFAO who in their right mind created that.
I'm not gonna write a wall of text, but everything being said in pando's posts is true.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
"Your defense mechanic" you mean outside 4 long dodge rolls with fast stamina regeneration, 75% deflect severity plus dazes OR ITC, fast movement, mixed in a different way depending on the build?
Oh boy here we go.
Yes, the defense mechanic unique to TRs.
Like CW's CC which still provides a good amount of damage.
Or DC's heals which make them deceptively tanky.
Or GWF's Unstoppable that make them deceptively tanky and provide a great damage boost.
Also, just to clear this up:
1) Deflect Severity is great when you actually Deflect something.
2) This sounds like another "OMG NERF SCOUNDREL" jab.
3) Only one paragon has ITC, you ****ing twit.
4) I would assume a Rogue would be Rogue-like.
Also, permanent sight my ***, sorry if i'm rude. Reveal is 2s after you attack.
Considering we already:
A) Lost 1s on stealth duration
and Lost set bonuses
Yes, we're already suffering in the stealth department. It's possible to still pull off permastealth but at the loss of a hefty portion of DPS. The only exception to this is Gloaming Cut spamming tactics. And, honestly, if you don't wise up to that and die from a TR spamming at-wills, you deserved it.
TRs were crying rivers of tears when reveal was announced, saying the class was DEAD. And what happened? TRs using their brain were still top dogs in PvP and the class was still very strong and on top even after reveal implementation, demonstrating that all the cry whenever someone says that they will not be invisible most of the time anymore, is just the iron will to do not let go a cheesy overused mechanic just cause it's convenient and easy to use.
A cheesy and overused mechanic that's been in this game since before you signed up.
The ironic part is that no one cried about it until TR became over-tuned.
The engine in your car is broken, stop trying to replace the steering wheel.
That's all it was, a misplaced nerf.
Reveal did not break the class in module 5, it would not break the class now, plus if needed, there are other tools you can buff if needed.
The TRs who know how to play the class weren't claiming it broke the class. We were complaining because it was a misplaced nerf.
We played the Preview Shard and saw how ridiculous it was. The devs asked for feedback from the TR community.
Yet, given all the feedback, all the suggestions for tuning in the right areas, we get a 2-second reveal.
You're right, it didn't change anything for anyone who knew how to play the class. Even I could still stomp Dom matches with the 2s reveal.
So what's the point in asking for it?
Well it's kinda nonsense as a argument "CWs are OP now so make us as OP as them please".
I just got hit by 20k disintegrate+19k passive storm spell proc by a tank CW with shield on tab and perfect+ negation in GG through 91k HP and 43-86% tenacity 32% deflect 20% DR+ countless scars procs.
I would say fix the BS flying around when it's clearly too cheesy and out of place. That's called balance.
Like TR SE being a sure nuke on SWs/GWFs that can take away 80% of my 91k HP, again, through 43-86% tenacity, cannot avoid due to lack of proper dodge and only takes the TR to press 1 button to achieve the result.
What we need is not 1s stealth reduction but the stealth reveal the devs introduced as a feature, to be working again.
I don't see the big issue in having to slot one passive to still have your stealth working most of the time.
I see balance when a TR with 75% deflect severity, 4 long immunity rolls and high burst DPS+ highest mobility+ other tools to increase survivability depending on path, loses his stealth temporary after attacking, giving the enemy a chance to actually fight back without resorting to "prediction" and other stuff that are NOT game mechanics but pure skill of the player overcoming said mechanics.
The fact that i can outplay many CWs or many TRs and still win does not make SS procs, disintegrate, SE piercing, and other cheesy mechanics, less cheesy.
I have never seen my SE doing more than 25k (even the ability description doesnt show such numbers). Perhaps there's some bug which makes it do more dmg than intended.
Im not against changes to stealth, but TR will need buffs in other areas imo. Sco is just useless now after the nerf to dazzle duration in pvp and deflect is way too unreliable compared to let say CW shield. I have around 28% deflect chance with MI passives and some campaign boons.
Outside of the "one trick pony first LB attack from stealth" and the daily (if its up) TR got no reliable source of dps. Most of TR melee attacks deal a lot less dmg than ranged CW attacks which is why people go for anything that can extend their stealth duration.
Imo Devs should change the deflect in to something more reliable like 100% chance to dodge ranged encounter attack with ~10s icd and separate guaranted dodge chance for melee encounter attacks once every 15s.
Later they could make stealth more of a scouting tool rather than dmg / survivality booster. This would require lot's of changes as too many passives and abilities is tied to current stealth model. Basically, I would like to see stealth being up all the time until you do any kind of attack (encounter or at will) and after using an attack there would be CD to prevent stealthing for "X" seconds, based on the dmg done (50k dmg from stealth attack = 25s cd until you can stealth again and without options skip the cd). Until they fix the unreliable deflect and 70% of the abilities lacking dps or reliable survivality there will most likely be no changes to Stealth. Else most TR's will just roll CW, because who need stealth when you got reliable shield and ranged version of LB on 5s cd.
Tr are already going 20+-0 in domination.
Daze hits for 40k+dam and a certain combo takes you down to 10% hp from 100k when used from stealth.
Tr will become even more annoyig this module then last only differance is that for other classes gf cw and now also gwfs are better at killing.
Which dont bother Trs much as they just troll home or enemy node and if in trubble just goes itc dodge hide run.
Tr is exactly as broken as module 5 maby even more so with no 2 sec visibility after attack.
The nerf threads about Tr will continue but the devs are blind or incapable of handling it so ....
I fully support pando on this. Stealth in Neverwinter is the worst imbalanced thing I've ever seen in any MMO. Being able to attack from stealth without becoming visible LMFAO who in their right mind created that.
I'm not gonna write a wall of text, but everything being said in pando's posts is true.
You must have very poor experience with MMO if you think NWO stealth is worst imba thing ever
NWO pvp is at most annoying but still a lot more casual than let say old Lineage 2 pvp where for example: nuker (sps class in chronicle 3 (aka module3) could perma CC you with sleep and spam nukes in between while you couldnt do anything. Necromancer in chronicle 4 with very high chance to land 2min long parylysis (pretty much a 2min stun) while he didnt even need it because he had very good survivality due to redirecting dmg taken to his pet and strong nukes. Later there was even more OP sh.ts like kamael race that could perma stun several people or steal their buffs and render them totaly useless in 1vs1. Nukers killing 20-50 people with one AoE encounters, etc.
I sadly must agree with marnival, at least partially: there is a build that can basically one hit. It can still be somehow dealth with, but that requires amazing prediction abilities.
I sadly must agree with marnival, at least partially: there is a build that can basically one hit. It can still be somehow dealth with, but that requires amazing prediction abilities.
so i decided if im gonna lose, w not have some fun?
went full permastealth for the entire match 5 ppl running around clueless trying to kill me while i just run, hit here, hit there and everywhere...
Hey lemonchill, even you said you decided to have some fun because your team had already given up. You went perma and just ran around intentionally annoying the other team. What response did you expect?
The nerf threads about Tr will continue but the devs are blind or incapable of handling it so ....
The nerf threads are started by and filled with dumb****s who don't know how to counter an already nerfed mechanic.
It's time to stop queueing for PvP.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
No, points. It's nothing but the exact same thing we had in mod5, and it's not even 1-hit in most cases. It's just a high-power build that relies on the same broken AP-gain mechanics such as SigDiv and/or AP cloaks (WHICH IS SAME BROKEN HAMSTER FOR ALL CLASSES, AND SHOULD BE FIXED FOR ALL CLASSES, BTW) to deal mega-hit Sucking Execution. SE already used to deal something like 50k damage in the last mod. Some of the 'wealthier' players already made due 'investments' to power increasing enchants and stuff like TVorpal, so under right conditions SE damage can even go higher than mod5 damage.
Now, combine that with the stupid broken piercing damage Sabos can deal, and usually a Sabo TR can pick off around 30~40k HP easily by spamming CoS alone. Cut at least 25~30% from their HP and then bam, SE, and the opponents are basically dead, or about to.
Basically they simply whining about the same thing they were whining about months ago. Amateuers. *tsk*
No, points. It's nothing but the exact same thing we had in mod5, and it's not even 1-hit in most cases. It's just a high-power build that relies on the same broken AP-gain mechanics such as SigDiv and/or AP cloaks (WHICH IS SAME BROKEN HAMSTER FOR ALL CLASSES, AND SHOULD BE FIXED FOR ALL CLASSES, BTW) to deal mega-hit Sucking Execution. SE already used to deal something like 50k damage in the last mod. Some of the 'wealthier' players already made due 'investments' to power increasing enchants and stuff like TVorpal, so under right conditions SE damage can even go higher than mod5 damage.
Now, combine that with the stupid broken piercing damage Sabos can deal, and usually a Sabo TR can pick off around 30~40k HP easily by spamming CoS alone. Cut at least 25~30% from their HP and then bam, SE, and the opponents are basically dead, or about to.
Basically they simply whining about the same thing they were whining about months ago. Amateuers. *tsk*
But if people have too press more than one button to win they'll be angry and QQ hard.
Your build is ****.
I PvP on a SW and I've never been hit that hard by a TR.
Yea, let's run down the list:
1) Nerfed stealth duration
2) No set bonus
3) Nerfed SoD
4) Lower damage compared to current health pools
Yea, what a threat.
Yes, I use ITC all day on my Whisperknife, you ****ing idiot.
Yes, I can spam CoS all day in my Profound Set with 6s Stealth Duration in Mod 6.
The nerf threads are started by and filled with dumb****s who don't know how to counter an already nerfed mechanic.
It's time to stop queueing for PvP.
Only becuase you are an inferior Tr does not mean that others are.
Dont care if you have ITC most Tr play with it so if you are one handed mentally challlanged and born stupid does not mean other Tr are that.
Nerfed mechanics my as*s your lame less then intelligent clueless nonsence does not applay to rest of the Trs that (ab)use the OP mechanics.
Tr does even more damage now and every single class got their armor nerfed and everybody that pvps knows that perma hide (itc dodge to cover) allready exist.
Nerfed damage ? ask around a bit if your totally clueless yourself. Due to piercing damage and crit from stealth +buff mechanics 90k hp is gone in first hits, **** the gwf I played with yesterday went down from full health 125k hp in seconds. You take a good look at sicarias when he kills 2-3 players in no time.
Get your head out of where the sun doesent shine and get real mkay....
TRs do get a lot of hate. No denying that, however, most of the trash talking directed at me and random teammates during matches (DC) usually comes from TR players, followed by HRs.
Простая Кавказская девушка я, Но все же прошу послушать меня, Скажу вам-довольно огня и войны, Ведь мы же Кавказцы-мы духом сильны!
Only becuase you are an inferior Tr does not mean that others are.
Dont care if you have ITC most Tr play with it so if you are one handed mentally challlanged and born stupid does not mean other Tr are that.
Nerfed mechanics my as*s your lame less then intelligent clueless nonsence does not applay to rest of the Trs that (ab)use the OP mechanics.
Tr does even more damage now and every single class got their armor nerfed and everybody that pvps knows that perma hide (itc dodge to cover) allready exist.
Nerfed damage ? ask around a bit if your totally clueless yourself. Due to piercing damage and crit from stealth +buff mechanics 90k hp is gone in first hits, **** the gwf I played with yesterday went down from full health 125k hp in seconds. You take a good look at sicarias when he kills 2-3 players in no time.
Get your head out of where the sun doesent shine and get real mkay....
Let's change every TR reference to something that involves HRs, and then why don't you go forth and reproduce with yourself, plz. Not every HRs are as non-inspiring as you. HRs like Sandy or Deadshot delete people from existence in matter of seconds.
So nerf HR essentials -- just as they've nerfed TRs. Use same criteria -- "amount of whines from clueless people" -- to do so.
There, everything's fair and dandy, Comes around goes around. Reap what you sow. Getting rid of double standards and biases and treating every class with exact same standards,"mkay". trolllololololol
Oh boy here we go.
Yes, the defense mechanic unique to TRs.
Like CW's CC which still provides a good amount of damage.
Or DC's heals which make them deceptively tanky.
Or GWF's Unstoppable that make them deceptively tanky and provide a great damage boost.
CW CC is decreased by tenacity AND can be dodged aka countered in a clear way with a clear game mechanic: CC vs dodge immunity. Every class has CC immunity on shift.
CC heals are under healing depression and can be countered preventing the DC from healing through CC and focus. Here again, it's a clear mechanic: heals vs DPS+CC.
GWF unstoppable activates after losing a big chunk of HP for a full determination bar, lasts 4-8 seconds, DR from it can be debuffed and the damage boost comes IF the GWF can get stacks (10 staks) in those 4-8 seconds. It means he needs to hit the enemy 10 times during unstoppable. A GWF in unstoppable can still be kited, even more by dodging classes like TRs. Also, proned GWF cannot go unstoppable.
As you can see, each mechanic has limitations and a clear counter mechanic. Let's see stealth:
You're invisible. Somewhere. Hitting your enemy.
The enemy cannot see you and there is no mechanic allowing you to counter that.
The counter is, as usual, to "train" and learn to "predict" what a TR will do and find him. Find an invisible target.
It's not a counter mechanic. It's pure player skill overcoming a game mechanic.
Example, what i'm doing now: i guess where the TR might be, shoot hidden daggers AoE when i think he might be in range, look at the visual effect of the enchant hitting the TR, rush to that position, follow his dodge roll, pursue, try to CC in the split second i can target him.
Also, just to clear this up:
1) Deflect Severity is great when you actually Deflect something.
2) This sounds like another "OMG NERF SCOUNDREL" jab.
3) Only one paragon has ITC, you ****ing twit.
4) I would assume a Rogue would be Rogue-like.
You're purely grasping as MI Scoundrel.
Go home.
1) Too bad it happens quite often when you have decent deflect chance. And TRs have it.
2) Nope, it sounds like "make stealth only a tool and not the alpha and omega of TR gameplay".
3) Yes and another has dazes and so on. You see, there are other tools you can buff and work on to make the class more proactive and less working through brainless stealth use like "stay invisible and spam attacks".
4) Yes, and it does not mean stealth must cover every aspect of your gameplay. Or else CWs should ask for 1 minute CC chains cause they have "control" and GWF weapon should split players in half on touch with no need for stacks.
But it's interesting how if i say "make stealth just one tool and give TRs more proactive tools to defend", many TRs jump on their seats. You scared of going from a cheesy mechanic to something that actually requires you to time you powers and use your brain?
Considering we already:
A) Lost 1s on stealth duration
and Lost set bonuses
Yes, we're already suffering in the stealth department. It's possible to still pull off permastealth but at the loss of a hefty portion of DPS. The only exception to this is Gloaming Cut spamming tactics. And, honestly, if you don't wise up to that and die from a TR spamming at-wills, you deserved it.
Every class lost set bonuses, dear dude.
I don't see TRs suffering, as you said it's still possible to pull of permastealth, and that's enough.
Spamming attacks from stealth is still a brainless mechanic so if you care about fun gameplay you should have no problem with such mechanic getting fixed and replaced with something more proactive and fun.
A cheesy and overused mechanic that's been in this game since before you signed up.
The ironic part is that no one cried about it until TR became over-tuned.
The engine in your car is broken, stop trying to replace the steering wheel.
That's all it was, a misplaced nerf.
And it's been a problem since beta.
How long have you been playing? I started in july 2013.
Permastealth complaints were there, so you're speaking about something you don't know. When i started playng, TRs were monster kill machines with extensive use of stealth/ semi-perma stealth.
Then the complaints brought to a DPS nerf.
Old TRs in PvP got perma-semi-perma stealth, but also got
- Less deflect severity instead of 75% deflect severity
- Low DPS instead of very high burst DPS
- 3 short dodge rolls instead of 4 LONG dodge rolls
You can't tell the difference? Learn 2 play.
I learned to fight permas in module 1-2 through "prediction" when GWFs got no tools to truly counter stealth.
During module 2-3 i actually defended semi-perma or perma gameplay, my posts are still there. The reason was that the build as a whole could be countered since
- low DPS gave the enemy enough time to search for the TR, if the player was skilled
- 3 short rolls could be countered, again, if the player was skilled
So a TR was very hard to get but you could do that with reasonable skills and got the time to do it.
Guess what happens if to that, you add high DPS burst instead of low DPS, more mobility with 4 long dodge rolls, and more deflect severity, without reducing stealth. We said it during module4 tests, and the result was TRs dominating the module along with DCs.
You're right, it didn't change anything for anyone who knew how to play the class. Even I could still stomp Dom matches with the 2s reveal.
So what's the point in asking for it?
That it gives a way for a skilled player to counter the TR, better than no reveal at all, and helps differentiate no-skill brainless TRs from good TRs.
So you yourself admit it does not break the class, the WTF are you complaining about my posts??????
You're suggesting a nerf that:
A) Is misplaced Didn't solve anything
and
C) Won't help you
Yea, you're not just angry at TRs. Thanks for proving that.
- I didn't suggest a nerf but a non-working mechanic to start working again and for the class to have less breinless stealth play and more proactive gameplay.
- You yourself stated above that said mechanic does not break the class
So again, you contraddict yourself and whine about the proposed return of a legit mechanic, while you also say that said mechanic in your opinion does not break the class for the ones who know how to play it.
I have no issue with rogue stealth mechanic but ther eis a problem to me with rogues defenses consiering there dps.
With a rogue if they have weak even to mid gear they can be killed and aren't anywhere near overpowered but near max rogue is a little much, more so than other classes I think. I have been hit over 100k from full hp with 1 shocking exectuion and when I did full rotation, 3 encounters + daily I hit less than 10k all together...
I think that rogues have so much deflect for defensive purposes but when you mix that with almost perma dodge and stealth then they can be unkillble. Too many times in gg do I see a rogue fighting against about 10 players and still unble to die, that is something no other class can do, not even pally.
But yeah having almost perma stealth with lots of dodges and then so much deflect/deflect severity that you can be more tanky than a cw is a little much. Wait that is weird that cw and tr are 2 most tanky classes ? xD
CW CC is decreased by tenacity AND can be dodged aka countered in a clear way with a clear game mechanic: CC vs dodge immunity. Every class has CC immunity on shift.
CC heals are under healing depression and can be countered preventing the DC from healing through CC and focus. Here again, it's a clear mechanic: heals vs DPS+CC.
GWF unstoppable activates after losing a big chunk of HP for a full determination bar, lasts 4-8 seconds, DR from it can be debuffed and the damage boost comes IF the GWF can get stacks (10 staks) in those 4-8 seconds. It means he needs to hit the enemy 10 times during unstoppable. A GWF in unstoppable can still be kited, even more by dodging classes like TRs. Also, proned GWF cannot go unstoppable.
As you can see, each mechanic has limitations and a clear counter mechanic. Let's see stealth:
You're invisible. Somewhere. Hitting your enemy.
The enemy cannot see you and there is no mechanic allowing you to counter that.
The counter is, as usual, to "train" and learn to "predict" what a TR will do and find him. Find an invisible target.
It's not a counter mechanic. It's pure player skill overcoming a game mechanic.
Example, what i'm doing now: i guess where the TR might be, shoot hidden daggers AoE when i think he might be in range, look at the visual effect of the enchant hitting the TR, rush to that position, follow his dodge roll, pursue, try to CC in the split second i can target him.
The sheer fact that you typed out 3 paragraphs, analyzing every other defensive mechanic in depth, and then gave the most broad, generic, and ignorant analysis of stealth and tried to pass that off as proof, is nearly insulting. Most of all to yourself.
Here are mechanics to counter stealth:
1) Lantern of Revelation
2) Moving close to the TR (It's not that ****ing difficult)
3) The TR loses stealth from attacking
4) AoEs
5) Ignore him.
1) Too bad it happens quite often when you have decent deflect chance. And TRs have it.
2) Nope, it sounds like "make stealth only a tool and not the alpha and omega of TR gameplay".
3) Yes and another has dazes and so on. You see, there are other tools you can buff and work on to make the class more proactive and less working through brainless stealth use like "stay invisible and spam attacks".
4) Yes, and it does not mean stealth must cover every aspect of your gameplay. Or else CWs should ask for 1 minute CC chains cause they have "control" and GWF weapon should split players in half on touch with no need for stacks.
But it's interesting how if i say "make stealth just one tool and give TRs more proactive tools to defend", many TRs jump on their seats. You scared of going from a cheesy mechanic to something that actually requires you to time you powers and use your brain?
1) No, MIs have it. Specifically, the MIs who use ITC. You can't talk **** about a class if you can't even figure out that they have more than 1 paragon.
2) Alright, make CC a tool and not the alpha and omega of CW gameplay.
3) You've failed to differentiate between paragons and feats. Great job. To add to this, you people already whined enough to get Scoundrel nerfed. And Scoundrel was the weakest paragon.
4) CWs don't need a minute. Usually a rotation is enough. GWF already puts out enough damage in 1 Unstoppable to kill at least 2 players. See the point? Their unique mechanics make them what they are. You're only whining about stealth because it takes more effort than "Press shift to dodge".
But it's interesting how if I say "Learn to counter it like the rest of the players in game who are destroying TRs", most of you jump on your seats. You scared of going from whining on the forums to actually learning how to play and use your brain?
Every class lost set bonuses, dear dude.
I don't see TRs suffering, as you said it's still possible to pull of permastealth, and that's enough.
Whew, yea. I'm wearing the full 70 set and I can throw 2-3 knives before I need to refill.
I can see how that's threatening to everyone who belongs in pvp.
Spamming attacks from stealth is still a brainless mechanic so if you care about fun gameplay you should have no problem with such mechanic getting fixed and replaced with something more proactive and fun.
Yea, except it's not.
The only attack you can "spam" from stealth is Gloaming Cut. Here's a tip: It's melee range. With a wind up. And audio queue.
Also, yes, I care about fun gameplay.
That's why I want relevant fixes, not "omg qq dis tr 1-shotted me in my lvl 40 green equips nirf plis" nerfs, like we've been having.
And it's been a problem since beta.
How long have you been playing? I started in july 2013.
Permastealth complaints were there, so you're speaking about something you don't know. When i started playng, TRs were monster kill machines with extensive use of stealth/ semi-perma stealth.
Then the complaints brought to a DPS nerf.
Old TRs in PvP got perma-semi-perma stealth, but also got
- Less deflect severity instead of 75% deflect severity
- Low DPS instead of very high burst DPS
- 3 short dodge rolls instead of 4 LONG dodge rolls
Permastealth was a dream back in the day. The only semi-viable way to pull it off was with Gloaming Cut.
The old Gloaming Cut that took 6 hours to warm up.
I also remember who was starting those threads: Nobody forum warriors.
The funny thing is, I played a TR during that time. The other hilarious thing is, people knew how to counter it.
You can't tell the difference? Learn 2 play.
I learned to fight permas in module 1-2 through "prediction" when GWFs got no tools to truly counter stealth.
During module 2-3 i actually defended semi-perma or perma gameplay, my posts are still there. The reason was that the build as a whole could be countered since
- low DPS gave the enemy enough time to search for the TR, if the player was skilled
- 3 short rolls could be countered, again, if the player was skilled
So a TR was very hard to get but you could do that with reasonable skills and got the time to do it.
Guess what happens if to that, you add high DPS burst instead of low DPS, more mobility with 4 long dodge rolls, and more deflect severity, without reducing stealth. We said it during module4 tests, and the result was TRs dominating the module along with DCs.
So, basically, what it boils down to is:
Permastealth is ok as long as the TR is incapable of killing anything.
Wow.
I main a rogue/assassin in most games I play. This is the first time I've seen so much crying over a stealth mechanic.
Just. Wow.
That it gives a way for a skilled player to counter the TR, better than no reveal at all, and helps differentiate no-skill brainless TRs from good TRs.
So you yourself admit it does not break the class, the WTF are you complaining about my posts??????
If I remove the windshield from your car, it doesn't inhibit the use of the car, now does it?
The funny thing is: Skilled players are already countering TRs. Right now.
You're not, which obviously leaves you out. I know this because you're on the forums crying about it.
I'm complaining because it's a stupid nerf that doesn't solve anything. Just makes casual baddies feel like they stand a chance.
- I didn't suggest a nerf but a non-working mechanic to start working again and for the class to have less breinless stealth play and more proactive gameplay.
You're invisible! Except you're visible.
Definitely not a nerf.
- You yourself stated above that said mechanic does not break the class
I also stated it's stupid and doesn't solve anything.
See, that's the problem with 95% of the TR whine posts on the forums. They suggest a fix/nerf, usually a stupid one that doesn't solve anything, and get defensive and butthurt when someone points out the flaw in it.
So again, you contraddict yourself and whine about the proposed return of a legit mechanic, while you also say that said mechanic in your opinion does not break the class for the ones who know how to play it.
Thanks for proving my point.
How's that GED working out for you?
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
agree with the comment above me 100% trs this mod are not op at all. not one bit. i take them down all day by outplaying them and sure a couple outplay me and kill me its only fair. this mod pvp is the most balanced ive seen to date.enjoy it and STOP WHINING LIKE LITTLE *****ES!!!!
The fact alone that you posted as counters a 2min CD artifact and "ignore him" is enough dude.
Arguing with your no-arguments posts is not funny.
And lol at the final rage attack. I already stated i can counter TRs with skill but the mechanic is dumb and overused, but i guess you don't need to learn to read when you can just trashtalk. Lol.
Also, my toons are listed in my signature and, as i stated many times, my @ is my forum nick so if you look for a forum warrior you can take a look elsewhere.
You're just another forum kid who cannot discuss mechanics without going all out with rage posts and personal attacks. Enough time wasted replying to you, see you in game.
Comments
Edit: Except in IWD, with no nodes to show me where TRs are and all the stupid companion bonus's these trolls are sporting they are a nightmare out there.
As a CW you have to really play bad to lose to almost any class right now
I use daggers to detect them through the visual effect of the enchant hitting, then pursue. Then use brain to predict their path and carefully stack my damage, dodge their big hits when i can (SE going through anything apart) and play smart using my sprint carefully, while they spam at-sills and spam dodge rolls.
Trained and from module 1 to module 3 fought permas through the old "if you can predict where the invisible TR is, you can fight back. See? Balance".
False. It's player skill overcoming flawed combat mechanic.
The point is, the class so far relied on braindead stealth gameplay where "i can attack you, you can attack me only if you outplay me".
Stealth reveal was introduced cause stealth usage was supposed to be toned down in module 4 when TRs got their damage back+4th dodge roll+longer rolls+deflection buff exc...
Now it's not working and lil demonmonger can cry and scream as loud as he can, it will hopefully be back.
But i like when someone simply says a non-working feature should be back and another player replies screaming like a spoiled brat.
Stealth duration was reduced from 6s to 5s though, iirc. Any TR which goes non Exe build will have to take TC passive to prevent stealth lose from dmg, else any AoE will just screw you oever all day.
They need to lower LB cd from 20s to ~5.5 like CW Desintegrate and make it 80-90' range, then you will see happy TR all over the place
Well it's kinda nonsense as a argument "CWs are OP now so make us as OP as them please".
I just got hit by 20k disintegrate+19k passive storm spell proc by a tank CW with shield on tab and perfect+ negation in GG through 91k HP and 43-86% tenacity 32% deflect 20% DR+ countless scars procs.
I would say fix the BS flying around when it's clearly too cheesy and out of place. That's called balance.
Like TR SE being a sure nuke on SWs/GWFs that can take away 80% of my 91k HP, again, through 43-86% tenacity, cannot avoid due to lack of proper dodge and only takes the TR to press 1 button to achieve the result.
What we need is not 1s stealth reduction but the stealth reveal the devs introduced as a feature, to be working again.
I don't see the big issue in having to slot one passive to still have your stealth working most of the time.
I see balance when a TR with 75% deflect severity, 4 long immunity rolls and high burst DPS+ highest mobility+ other tools to increase survivability depending on path, loses his stealth temporary after attacking, giving the enemy a chance to actually fight back without resorting to "prediction" and other stuff that are NOT game mechanics but pure skill of the player overcoming said mechanics.
The fact that i can outplay many CWs or many TRs and still win does not make SS procs, disintegrate, SE piercing, and other cheesy mechanics, less cheesy.
I am a Faithful DC, in a 1V1 I can just use Geas and laugh at any class while they attack me but don't do enough damage to kill anyone either. In most 2v1's and 3v1's I can Geas one and still survive fairly well depending on the grouping. 2 or more cw's or Hr's on me though and it's gg.
TR's role in pvp now is where it should be, IMO. This games balance has always been an issue and do we really see it being fixed anytime soon? I mean, I had a Pally almost one hit me the other day in PVP dom. Have 2-3 cw's, hr's, gf's and/or gwf's spamming prone spells and my stacks of faith won't even proc.
Why most people won't play PVP in this game. Between the imbalances of the classes and the BIS premades (lack of matchmaking), this games PVP isn't very fun. I just hope they change some things before the Champions League starts.
Yes please.
I'm tired of my defensive mechanic being useful. Please give permanent sight through stealth to defeat the purpose of it entirely.
Already considering we lost stealth duration and set bonuses, which already makes permastealth ridiculously difficult unless you're spamming Gloaming Cut.
Then again, I'm on the forums, and the only TR build the forums will recognize is the 1-shotting 700 dodge roll 32847% Deflect build.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
I could only get my dodges up to 634, but I did get my deflect up to 37945%.
"Your defense mechanic" you mean outside 4 long dodge rolls with fast stamina regeneration, 75% deflect severity plus dazes OR ITC, fast movement, mixed in a different way depending on the build?
Also, permanent sight my ***, sorry if i'm rude. Reveal is 2s after you attack.
TRs were crying rivers of tears when reveal was announced, saying the class was DEAD. And what happened? TRs using their brain were still top dogs in PvP and the class was still very strong and on top even after reveal implementation, demonstrating that all the cry whenever someone says that they will not be invisible most of the time anymore, is just the iron will to do not let go a cheesy overused mechanic just cause it's convenient and easy to use.
Reveal did not break the class in module 5, it would not break the class now, plus if needed, there are other tools you can buff if needed.
It kind of reminds me of a TR in module 2. After IV sentinels started ruling the game. In a match, he said:
"it's totally unbalanced now. In module 1 i could kite GWFs forever, now i get caught and killed with FLS/threat rush".
So, it was totally fine and balanced when he was able to kite a GWF forever, but was not fine if he could get killed.
Or a TR vs me on my GWF a few days ago, in domination, i sprinted (for the lulz) and somehow his SE bugged out or something and took away "only" 40% of my HP from almost full health, and he went
"how the fk did you dodge that?"
Like seriously, he was disappointed cause he didn't almost-oneshot me pressing one button through my shift.
Or another mod3 TR, doing his usual perma rotation, getting caught cause i just figured out with experience where he was each time, and he went
"how can you see me in stealth?What are you using?"
Like: hey, you should not be able to fight back!!
Would be as if a module 3 GWF would tell you "what's wrong with roar spam? Learn to predict when i will fire it and where, and move out of its range in advance.
Yeah, sure.
I'm against cheesy stuff. Be it TR, GWF,GF,CW,HR,DC, name it.
I like skillful play, not easy mode cheese.
But i understand why some players defend some mechanics as if their life depends on it.
I'm not gonna write a wall of text, but everything being said in pando's posts is true.
Oh boy here we go.
Yes, the defense mechanic unique to TRs.
Like CW's CC which still provides a good amount of damage.
Or DC's heals which make them deceptively tanky.
Or GWF's Unstoppable that make them deceptively tanky and provide a great damage boost.
Also, just to clear this up:
1) Deflect Severity is great when you actually Deflect something.
2) This sounds like another "OMG NERF SCOUNDREL" jab.
3) Only one paragon has ITC, you ****ing twit.
4) I would assume a Rogue would be Rogue-like.
You're purely grasping as MI Scoundrel.
Go home.
Considering we already:
A) Lost 1s on stealth duration
and
Yes, we're already suffering in the stealth department. It's possible to still pull off permastealth but at the loss of a hefty portion of DPS. The only exception to this is Gloaming Cut spamming tactics. And, honestly, if you don't wise up to that and die from a TR spamming at-wills, you deserved it.
A cheesy and overused mechanic that's been in this game since before you signed up.
The ironic part is that no one cried about it until TR became over-tuned.
The engine in your car is broken, stop trying to replace the steering wheel.
That's all it was, a misplaced nerf.
The TRs who know how to play the class weren't claiming it broke the class. We were complaining because it was a misplaced nerf.
We played the Preview Shard and saw how ridiculous it was. The devs asked for feedback from the TR community.
Yet, given all the feedback, all the suggestions for tuning in the right areas, we get a 2-second reveal.
You're right, it didn't change anything for anyone who knew how to play the class. Even I could still stomp Dom matches with the 2s reveal.
So what's the point in asking for it?
You're suggesting a nerf that:
A) Is misplaced
and
C) Won't help you
Yea, you're not just angry at TRs. Thanks for proving that.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
I have never seen my SE doing more than 25k (even the ability description doesnt show such numbers). Perhaps there's some bug which makes it do more dmg than intended.
Im not against changes to stealth, but TR will need buffs in other areas imo. Sco is just useless now after the nerf to dazzle duration in pvp and deflect is way too unreliable compared to let say CW shield. I have around 28% deflect chance with MI passives and some campaign boons.
Outside of the "one trick pony first LB attack from stealth" and the daily (if its up) TR got no reliable source of dps. Most of TR melee attacks deal a lot less dmg than ranged CW attacks which is why people go for anything that can extend their stealth duration.
Imo Devs should change the deflect in to something more reliable like 100% chance to dodge ranged encounter attack with ~10s icd and separate guaranted dodge chance for melee encounter attacks once every 15s.
Later they could make stealth more of a scouting tool rather than dmg / survivality booster. This would require lot's of changes as too many passives and abilities is tied to current stealth model. Basically, I would like to see stealth being up all the time until you do any kind of attack (encounter or at will) and after using an attack there would be CD to prevent stealthing for "X" seconds, based on the dmg done (50k dmg from stealth attack = 25s cd until you can stealth again and without options skip the cd). Until they fix the unreliable deflect and 70% of the abilities lacking dps or reliable survivality there will most likely be no changes to Stealth. Else most TR's will just roll CW, because who need stealth when you got reliable shield and ranged version of LB on 5s cd.
Tr are already going 20+-0 in domination.
Daze hits for 40k+dam and a certain combo takes you down to 10% hp from 100k when used from stealth.
Tr will become even more annoyig this module then last only differance is that for other classes gf cw and now also gwfs are better at killing.
Which dont bother Trs much as they just troll home or enemy node and if in trubble just goes itc dodge hide run.
Tr is exactly as broken as module 5 maby even more so with no 2 sec visibility after attack.
The nerf threads about Tr will continue but the devs are blind or incapable of handling it so ....
You must have very poor experience with MMO if you think NWO stealth is worst imba thing ever
NWO pvp is at most annoying but still a lot more casual than let say old Lineage 2 pvp where for example: nuker (sps class in chronicle 3 (aka module3) could perma CC you with sleep and spam nukes in between while you couldnt do anything. Necromancer in chronicle 4 with very high chance to land 2min long parylysis (pretty much a 2min stun) while he didnt even need it because he had very good survivality due to redirecting dmg taken to his pet and strong nukes. Later there was even more OP sh.ts like kamael race that could perma stun several people or steal their buffs and render them totaly useless in 1vs1. Nukers killing 20-50 people with one AoE encounters, etc.
For example the nuker pov: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTFfhFoECmg
What is this mysterious "one-hit" build?
Is it based on some exploit?
Hey lemonchill, even you said you decided to have some fun because your team had already given up. You went perma and just ran around intentionally annoying the other team. What response did you expect?
Stomping idiots is quite the accomplishment.
Your build is ****.
I PvP on a SW and I've never been hit that hard by a TR.
Yea, let's run down the list:
1) Nerfed stealth duration
2) No set bonus
3) Nerfed SoD
4) Lower damage compared to current health pools
Yea, what a threat.
Yes, I use ITC all day on my Whisperknife, you ****ing idiot.
Yes, I can spam CoS all day in my Profound Set with 6s Stealth Duration in Mod 6.
The nerf threads are started by and filled with dumb****s who don't know how to counter an already nerfed mechanic.
It's time to stop queueing for PvP.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
No, points. It's nothing but the exact same thing we had in mod5, and it's not even 1-hit in most cases. It's just a high-power build that relies on the same broken AP-gain mechanics such as SigDiv and/or AP cloaks (WHICH IS SAME BROKEN HAMSTER FOR ALL CLASSES, AND SHOULD BE FIXED FOR ALL CLASSES, BTW) to deal mega-hit Sucking Execution. SE already used to deal something like 50k damage in the last mod. Some of the 'wealthier' players already made due 'investments' to power increasing enchants and stuff like TVorpal, so under right conditions SE damage can even go higher than mod5 damage.
Now, combine that with the stupid broken piercing damage Sabos can deal, and usually a Sabo TR can pick off around 30~40k HP easily by spamming CoS alone. Cut at least 25~30% from their HP and then bam, SE, and the opponents are basically dead, or about to.
Basically they simply whining about the same thing they were whining about months ago. Amateuers. *tsk*
But if people have too press more than one button to win they'll be angry and QQ hard.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Only becuase you are an inferior Tr does not mean that others are.
Dont care if you have ITC most Tr play with it so if you are one handed mentally challlanged and born stupid does not mean other Tr are that.
Nerfed mechanics my as*s your lame less then intelligent clueless nonsence does not applay to rest of the Trs that (ab)use the OP mechanics.
Tr does even more damage now and every single class got their armor nerfed and everybody that pvps knows that perma hide (itc dodge to cover) allready exist.
Nerfed damage ? ask around a bit if your totally clueless yourself. Due to piercing damage and crit from stealth +buff mechanics 90k hp is gone in first hits, **** the gwf I played with yesterday went down from full health 125k hp in seconds. You take a good look at sicarias when he kills 2-3 players in no time.
Get your head out of where the sun doesent shine and get real mkay....
Let's change every TR reference to something that involves HRs, and then why don't you go forth and reproduce with yourself, plz. Not every HRs are as non-inspiring as you. HRs like Sandy or Deadshot delete people from existence in matter of seconds.
So nerf HR essentials -- just as they've nerfed TRs. Use same criteria -- "amount of whines from clueless people" -- to do so.
There, everything's fair and dandy, Comes around goes around. Reap what you sow. Getting rid of double standards and biases and treating every class with exact same standards,"mkay". trolllololololol
CW CC is decreased by tenacity AND can be dodged aka countered in a clear way with a clear game mechanic: CC vs dodge immunity. Every class has CC immunity on shift.
CC heals are under healing depression and can be countered preventing the DC from healing through CC and focus. Here again, it's a clear mechanic: heals vs DPS+CC.
GWF unstoppable activates after losing a big chunk of HP for a full determination bar, lasts 4-8 seconds, DR from it can be debuffed and the damage boost comes IF the GWF can get stacks (10 staks) in those 4-8 seconds. It means he needs to hit the enemy 10 times during unstoppable. A GWF in unstoppable can still be kited, even more by dodging classes like TRs. Also, proned GWF cannot go unstoppable.
As you can see, each mechanic has limitations and a clear counter mechanic. Let's see stealth:
You're invisible. Somewhere. Hitting your enemy.
The enemy cannot see you and there is no mechanic allowing you to counter that.
The counter is, as usual, to "train" and learn to "predict" what a TR will do and find him. Find an invisible target.
It's not a counter mechanic. It's pure player skill overcoming a game mechanic.
Example, what i'm doing now: i guess where the TR might be, shoot hidden daggers AoE when i think he might be in range, look at the visual effect of the enchant hitting the TR, rush to that position, follow his dodge roll, pursue, try to CC in the split second i can target him.
1) Too bad it happens quite often when you have decent deflect chance. And TRs have it.
2) Nope, it sounds like "make stealth only a tool and not the alpha and omega of TR gameplay".
3) Yes and another has dazes and so on. You see, there are other tools you can buff and work on to make the class more proactive and less working through brainless stealth use like "stay invisible and spam attacks".
4) Yes, and it does not mean stealth must cover every aspect of your gameplay. Or else CWs should ask for 1 minute CC chains cause they have "control" and GWF weapon should split players in half on touch with no need for stacks.
But it's interesting how if i say "make stealth just one tool and give TRs more proactive tools to defend", many TRs jump on their seats. You scared of going from a cheesy mechanic to something that actually requires you to time you powers and use your brain?
Every class lost set bonuses, dear dude.
I don't see TRs suffering, as you said it's still possible to pull of permastealth, and that's enough.
Spamming attacks from stealth is still a brainless mechanic so if you care about fun gameplay you should have no problem with such mechanic getting fixed and replaced with something more proactive and fun.
And it's been a problem since beta.
How long have you been playing? I started in july 2013.
Permastealth complaints were there, so you're speaking about something you don't know. When i started playng, TRs were monster kill machines with extensive use of stealth/ semi-perma stealth.
Then the complaints brought to a DPS nerf.
Old TRs in PvP got perma-semi-perma stealth, but also got
- Less deflect severity instead of 75% deflect severity
- Low DPS instead of very high burst DPS
- 3 short dodge rolls instead of 4 LONG dodge rolls
You can't tell the difference? Learn 2 play.
I learned to fight permas in module 1-2 through "prediction" when GWFs got no tools to truly counter stealth.
During module 2-3 i actually defended semi-perma or perma gameplay, my posts are still there. The reason was that the build as a whole could be countered since
- low DPS gave the enemy enough time to search for the TR, if the player was skilled
- 3 short rolls could be countered, again, if the player was skilled
So a TR was very hard to get but you could do that with reasonable skills and got the time to do it.
Guess what happens if to that, you add high DPS burst instead of low DPS, more mobility with 4 long dodge rolls, and more deflect severity, without reducing stealth. We said it during module4 tests, and the result was TRs dominating the module along with DCs.
That it gives a way for a skilled player to counter the TR, better than no reveal at all, and helps differentiate no-skill brainless TRs from good TRs.
So you yourself admit it does not break the class, the WTF are you complaining about my posts??????
- I didn't suggest a nerf but a non-working mechanic to start working again and for the class to have less breinless stealth play and more proactive gameplay.
- You yourself stated above that said mechanic does not break the class
So again, you contraddict yourself and whine about the proposed return of a legit mechanic, while you also say that said mechanic in your opinion does not break the class for the ones who know how to play it.
Thanks for proving my point.
With a rogue if they have weak even to mid gear they can be killed and aren't anywhere near overpowered but near max rogue is a little much, more so than other classes I think. I have been hit over 100k from full hp with 1 shocking exectuion and when I did full rotation, 3 encounters + daily I hit less than 10k all together...
I think that rogues have so much deflect for defensive purposes but when you mix that with almost perma dodge and stealth then they can be unkillble. Too many times in gg do I see a rogue fighting against about 10 players and still unble to die, that is something no other class can do, not even pally.
But yeah having almost perma stealth with lots of dodges and then so much deflect/deflect severity that you can be more tanky than a cw is a little much. Wait that is weird that cw and tr are 2 most tanky classes ? xD
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The sheer fact that you typed out 3 paragraphs, analyzing every other defensive mechanic in depth, and then gave the most broad, generic, and ignorant analysis of stealth and tried to pass that off as proof, is nearly insulting. Most of all to yourself.
Here are mechanics to counter stealth:
1) Lantern of Revelation
2) Moving close to the TR (It's not that ****ing difficult)
3) The TR loses stealth from attacking
4) AoEs
5) Ignore him.
1) No, MIs have it. Specifically, the MIs who use ITC. You can't talk **** about a class if you can't even figure out that they have more than 1 paragon.
2) Alright, make CC a tool and not the alpha and omega of CW gameplay.
3) You've failed to differentiate between paragons and feats. Great job. To add to this, you people already whined enough to get Scoundrel nerfed. And Scoundrel was the weakest paragon.
4) CWs don't need a minute. Usually a rotation is enough. GWF already puts out enough damage in 1 Unstoppable to kill at least 2 players. See the point? Their unique mechanics make them what they are. You're only whining about stealth because it takes more effort than "Press shift to dodge".
But it's interesting how if I say "Learn to counter it like the rest of the players in game who are destroying TRs", most of you jump on your seats. You scared of going from whining on the forums to actually learning how to play and use your brain?
Whew, yea. I'm wearing the full 70 set and I can throw 2-3 knives before I need to refill.
I can see how that's threatening to everyone who belongs in pvp.
Yea, except it's not.
The only attack you can "spam" from stealth is Gloaming Cut. Here's a tip: It's melee range. With a wind up. And audio queue.
Also, yes, I care about fun gameplay.
That's why I want relevant fixes, not "omg qq dis tr 1-shotted me in my lvl 40 green equips nirf plis" nerfs, like we've been having.
Permastealth was a dream back in the day. The only semi-viable way to pull it off was with Gloaming Cut.
The old Gloaming Cut that took 6 hours to warm up.
I also remember who was starting those threads: Nobody forum warriors.
The funny thing is, I played a TR during that time. The other hilarious thing is, people knew how to counter it.
So, basically, what it boils down to is:
Permastealth is ok as long as the TR is incapable of killing anything.
Wow.
I main a rogue/assassin in most games I play. This is the first time I've seen so much crying over a stealth mechanic.
Just. Wow.
If I remove the windshield from your car, it doesn't inhibit the use of the car, now does it?
The funny thing is: Skilled players are already countering TRs. Right now.
You're not, which obviously leaves you out. I know this because you're on the forums crying about it.
I'm complaining because it's a stupid nerf that doesn't solve anything. Just makes casual baddies feel like they stand a chance.
You're invisible! Except you're visible.
Definitely not a nerf.
Also stealth is working just fine.
I also stated it's stupid and doesn't solve anything.
See, that's the problem with 95% of the TR whine posts on the forums. They suggest a fix/nerf, usually a stupid one that doesn't solve anything, and get defensive and butthurt when someone points out the flaw in it.
How's that GED working out for you?
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
The fact alone that you posted as counters a 2min CD artifact and "ignore him" is enough dude.
Arguing with your no-arguments posts is not funny.
And lol at the final rage attack. I already stated i can counter TRs with skill but the mechanic is dumb and overused, but i guess you don't need to learn to read when you can just trashtalk. Lol.
Also, my toons are listed in my signature and, as i stated many times, my @ is my forum nick so if you look for a forum warrior you can take a look elsewhere.
You're just another forum kid who cannot discuss mechanics without going all out with rage posts and personal attacks. Enough time wasted replying to you, see you in game.
A GWF whining about TRs.
That's golden.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
eeeeee You guys 1shot them whole last mod. I think they have every right to whine.
Steel and Magic