And finally consider that a bloody trash drake in Elol can kill said tanks with a single hit thru all kinds of stacked protection...
I don't know which tanks you're playing with, but ours takes the big red trash drake just fine. There are some attacks you can block, and there are some you need to avoid. That big red one where it turns in a circle is probably one you can't block, but there's enough time to move out of it before it does damage. (Not to mention that drakes are freezable and also entangleable if in doubt)
If you're talking about the green small trash drakes - they've always been a problem in uncoordinated parties, since they do an AoE attack and if this hits the whole party while the GF has KV on, it kills him. That's why they're always first targets to kill - they're still squishy.
Hints:
1) Don't use ranged attacks as an opener for elol trash groups, as they will seperate the elite mobs from the drakes, which can then do their AoE attacks uncontested from behind. Let GF+CW run in instead and open with control.
2) Don't wear T1 or T2 armor for the set bonus for now. They might still be useful in the future when geared up a bit more, but currently you die when you use them. And when you're dead the set bonus doesn't gain you anything.
3) Don't use Feytouched, as this will - while enhancing your own personal damage by 100-200% because it's broken - turn every single attack of them into a 1shot.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I don't know which tanks you're playing with, but ours takes the big red trash drake just fine. There are some attacks you can block, and there are some you need to avoid. That big red one where it turns in a circle is probably one you can't block, but there's enough time to move out of it before it does damage. (Not to mention that drakes are freezable and also entangleable if in doubt)
True. There are some red splat attacks that even the tanks have to side-step or avoid. Which is true in almost every MMO I've ever played a tank in...you're not suppose to just sit there, block and win. You have to be smart about which attacks you're blocking and which attacks you're avoiding.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
True. There are some red splat attacks that even the tanks have to side-step or avoid. Which is true in almost every MMO I've ever played a tank in...you're not suppose to just sit there, block and win. You have to be smart about which attacks you're blocking and which attacks you're avoiding.
and dont yell at your healers because you decided not to avoid them =P ..
Hm.. I dont have any problems with kiting. Maybe because I play since open beta with gf as main. I had to kite like always. Shield droped after few mob hits and you had to find unred spot to use guard regen encounters with long animation. You could take those 3 big hits on shield and take 0 dmg but your guard would break in secs.
Now animations are shorter, you get dmg even when blocking but you have higher walking speed when blocking (changed with mod 4 before you had like halfed movment speed) so you can get out of red. And now your block lasts 20-30 secs with shield talent on.
I dont have problems with t1 and scirmishes. I have problem with such mechanics as in second stage of final fight in tos. When you have to block blue rey or she will be healed. This ray kill thrue shield, thats stupid because you have to intercept it, meaning some1 have to die. Not always you have warrior with steal defence on in right time..
Good effort, writing all that. Useless to me though. I am not playing with some random tanks, I am playing the tank, as in a 2500 IL ProtPala who can get close to 180 000 HP ( with temp ), who puts Absolution ON, who has 55%DR with divine call and even 65% with both DR auras ON, who has Sanctuary up ( another +60% DR )... need I continue?
I dont care who is against me, I dont care who is hitting me. Nothing short of Tiamat herself should be able to kill me through all those stacked defences with 1 bloody hit. Tanks in this game - GFs and OPs - were not designed to avoid attacks, wake up people, they were designed to take those attacks, to block them, to mitigate them, to absorb them. But now the attacks themselves are not designed to be taken. Thats BS. Our dear lizard friend Garakas has an invisible, instant cast attack that kills anything it hits, including my Paladin with all the mentioned protection. Dont attempt to preach to me or teach me how to play. I chose the melee tank class I dont need lessons from ranged cc and dps heavy classes.
And yes, there is no point blaming healers, there is nothing they can do when you are getting from full to zero in a second.
Bosses have extremely few OHK spells, mostly red areas and no you're NOT supposed to be able to soak them while the healer heals you and the team quietly kills adds or something. And all of these OHK with no red area (I see two on top of my head) have very obvious animations which means you have plenty of time to step back to avoid being hit.
As a tank you're not supposed to be a god among mortals on the battlefield. You're not immortal and hopefully you'll never be, otherwise it means the game is in such a poor state that the devs completely gave up on giving us a new, interesting experience requiring to learn how our own characters and how npcs work.
I dont have problems with t1 and scirmishes. I have problem with such mechanics as in second stage of final fight in tos. When you have to block blue rey or she will be healed. This ray kill thrue shield, thats stupid because you have to intercept it, meaning some1 have to die. Not always you have warrior with steal defence on in right time..
It's the cleric's job to soak the green beam and he will take 0 damage - yes 0 as in zero. Or take someone with a dodge to do it while using the immunity frame... This beam even healed my DC a couple of times.
I would LOVE a dev or two to explain to me how am I supposed to outlast 300k dmg burst on initial pull of TRASH mobs, current tanking for 1600 instances looks like "aggro, turn on Benny Hill theme, RUN FOR IT praying there are no ranged mobs". DCs AS doesn't help.
The only way to finish it is to use exploits or ultimate BIS, no other way. The normal casual and lower than 2.4K is not going to make it. They designed it to be that way, and they will not making it easier for anybody, or they would have done it by now.
The fact of the matter is that not only did they destroy the fun in running dungeons but made it impossible and lets not forget that they made away with almost all of the dungeons that was there, so yeah dungeon running is fun anymore. The current format of this game is a bloody joke, and the game sinking to the bottom of the sea, if they don't change things soon, but as history is proof of facts, things is just going to get worst the longer we wait.
I apologize if I sound so pessimistic, normally I always try and see the positive in things, but the way they have the destroy the game that we love, there is not way to stay positive any more. It's one thing when you screw up a class, it's another thing to destroy the game utterly, and this is what is happening at the moment. It's sad because the game we loved to play for the last 2 years is utter garbage now.
Just asking:
Are they no CC classes anymore? All trash CC immun?
I thought: CCed mobs cant make damage. Wrong?
Does it matter if the mobs deal tripple the damage of tank HP?
You can't CC permanently every single one of them.
It doesn't take a genius that mobs doing 300% of tanks HP non crit are clearly NOT intended, end game or not.
When it takes all exploits possible, rank 10 or better enchants, all campaign boons and BIS gear you are supposed to get from them just to have a chance at finishing dungeon its definitely NOT intended as well.
Does it matter if the mobs deal tripple the damage of tank HP?
You can't CC permanently every single one of them.
It doesn't take a genius that mobs doing 300% of tanks HP non crit are clearly NOT intended, end game or not.
When it takes all exploits possible, rank 10 or better enchants, all campaign boons and BIS gear you are supposed to get from them just to have a chance at finishing dungeon its definitely NOT intended as well.
Watch and think about it.... Learn when and how you can use skills. Think about to tank "different". Think about how you play your class and maybe respecc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNdyM0Vjyzc
No BIS gear btw...
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matiagronxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 251Arc User
edited April 2015
It is unfortunate but its reality that not all players can reach a certain level of skill. And i m talking about the majority of the population. So the majority is incapable of realizing the potential of a good party in an epic dungeon. What i would like though is to separate the highly skilled people/parties from the rest. And the only way would be to have Legendary dungeons with appropriate loot of course. That way all are happy. Except the developers have more important problems to solve right now, like maybe making the game playable again by reducing lag...its like we are in open beta again..
Right now i also believe that game is finally where is should be in terms of difficulty. Yes your tank shouldnt just stay and bluntly take hits, its a tank which means it should be able to give the party a few seconds of relief, not just sitting still and taking hits. The majority are SO SPOILED from the previous modules where all thought they were superheroes that now i see crying everywhere. Just learn to PLAY and ENJOY an epic adventure, else go play a foundry, really.
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malineffieMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited April 2015
The most overwhelming is the only 2 seals of the protector you drop for the firts boss in the T2 dungeons. Serioulsy. TWO seals ? You drop 10 seals on the T1 two first boss. A single head, arms, feet is 400 seals, an armor 600.
2 per 2 .............. -_-
Difficulty of the T1 dungeons is fine. Difficulty of the 2 first boss of T2 is fine. But the last boss is unkillable si you'll never get the 50 seals coffer. And while you'll drop only 2 seals from the first two boss, the T2 set will be impossible to get. And players will not continue to remain on a game where they have no chance of getting their stuff unless farming H24.
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matiagronxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 251Arc User
edited April 2015
2 weeks after the new module and people cry for not being able to have EVERYTHING..... what kind of mentality is this?
IT IS SUPPOSED TO TAKE YOU A MONTH OR EVEN MORE for being able to acquire all new epic equipment, what is wrong with ALL THE people? Anxiety, panic disorder, selfishness....GET REAL PLEASE
So far, I have done 15-20 epic T1/T2 dungeon runs.
All dungeon runs except one on my CW. one run on my trapper HR.
All queue runs.
Almost every CW is spellstorm CW, same as in module 5.
Almost all CW spam oppressive force which pushes mob away in 360 deg.
Almost all CW play CW as dps and a little control.
Almost all HR are playing HR as dps. No attempt to control.
Today, SW ask me, should I use CC? Since our group did not have a tank,
it should have been clear to any knowledgeable player that CC is vital without a tank.
Even with a tank, more CC is usually better than less CC.
When I played my trapper HR, we had no tank, and two non-aggressive CW's (one with blue shield and one without shield) which meant I had to attack mob first. Even with 2 CW and one trapper HR, we were wiping multiple times, until I switch to my frost enchantment.
I tried to explain the benefit of frost enchantment but no one responded. Instead, I see flaming enchantments which may look nice but it does not help us to survive. The players were complaining about one-shots, even though, if both CW used optimized build, the run would have been much smoother.
One time, I saw a CW enter cragmire crypt with only 27k HP. Have no clue how that is possible.
Since that time, I always inspect other characters in the party, especially CW since crowd control is so important.
Since I don't play GWF/GF/OP, I can't give useful comments about them.
When I see a tank use CC, I appreciate it, even if it's not the optimal way to play.
Sometimes I see TR use smoke bomb and sometimes not.
I admit that CW is probably more useful than most or all other classes in dungeons. However .....
if CW is nerfed, then we will need more CW to complete dungeons.
If dungeons are nerfed, then there is no need to buy zen because we are overgeared compared to module 5.
Solution is to buff melee classes. Maybe give them more control or more damage resistance in dungeons.
In T1/T2 current state, there is little reason to bring tank into dungeon except for final boss fight.
Yes, in final boss fight, tank is useful. But everywhere else, a dps class with crowd control would be more useful.
The best tank I ever saw was a paladin who did amazing job of aggro and kited the final boss (and sometimes adds) in Epic Gray Wolf Den. Maybe there are some good tanks who can be very effective in T1/T2 but I rarely see them.
Almost all CW spam oppressive force which pushes mob away in 360 deg.
Singularity is great except it doesn't control mobs from shooting and while they are being pulled into the singularity, a lot of abilities will miss (not sure if they fixed that or not). Oppressive force's aoe daze is decent. I'm more concerned about the cw's who use Ice Storm.
ELOL is definitely easier than the T2s. Maybe someone in your party was using feytouch enchant.
The two biggest issues that I have with eLOL aren't so much related to enemy difficulty:
1. Lag. Ever since mod 6, the lag everywhere has been unbearable, and in a fast-paced place like eLOL it makes it nearly impossible (not completely, because even we can get lucky sometimes). All too often there are instant-red areas that are un-dodgeable because you're dead as soon as you see them. Succeeding in eLOL absolutely depends on cracker-jack timing and lighting-fast reflexes, which the mod-6 lag makes impossible.
2. FPS. Here's an example: at the midpoint of the fight, when Lostmauth flies away, he leaves smoke on the ground in his wake. This smoke kills my framerate. For those few seconds until it dissipates, it makes it pretty much impossible to dodge the falling rocks in the center. I've lost count of the number of times I got hit because I couldn't react.
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Singularity is great except it doesn't control mobs from shooting and while they are being pulled into the singularity, a lot of abilities will miss (not sure if they fixed that or not). Oppressive force's aoe daze is decent. I'm more concerned about the cw's who use Ice Storm.
Your comment is a good example which shows players are unwilling to adapt to dungeons.
In order to use oppressive force, you must be in close range.
Singularity can be used at far range. Singularity and Furious Immolation are excellent openers which most CW (in queue party) never use.
Sing or FI on mob, dodge once or twice, icy terrain, steal time.
Use frost enchantment if more control is needed
Alternatively, dodge into center of mob. Use oppressive force.
Mob will be spead out. Unlikely entire mob can be frozen on one icy terrain.
A well played CW requires no help to clear dungeon mobs.
I was able to solo the first few mobs in cragmire crypt with my Master of Flame Renegade/Thau (previously Renegade/Opp) CW, until players began to join. Needed some practice and several respecs to be able to do that, though.
The only way a 1600 and above instance can be completed is by having Control Wizards. I saw it with my own eyes.
I run VT with no CW. I need 1 class to controll. And if got a choice i prefare a TR in my Grp ( for VT. For eCC and ToS i prefare TR + CW). But for VT i dont need any CW. A good TR + a good GF and a DC its all wot i need for VT. In eLoL the same:
You dont need a CW for eLoL. Take 1 good TR and you will see with your own eyes that this dungeon is easy to clear. Talk to your DC that he should use his ability to stun 1 scorpion for a minute. So the they scorpion fight is very easy. No adds at endboss in eLoL. Every TR/GWF is much much better in single DPS. So the endboss is much easier with good DPS classes like TR/GWF.
I didnt try eCC or ToS without a CW, but i will try it.
So...its nice and helpfull to have a CW in your grp. But you dont need one for eLoL and if you got a really good TR/DC you dont ned a CW in VT either. I made a lot runs without CW. Fastest VT runs i made was with a grp: GF/DC/2TRs/GWF. Same in eLoL. I loooove Smokebomb ^^.
@ up exactly. TR is the best fight opener, a lot better than CW. I can carry even beginner tanks through thrash in t2 by going to archers backline under stealth and smokebomb + maybe dazing strike if they are spread. Then tank can enter the room and get aggro + cast protective skills without being harmed. CWs are great for follow up control, though. But as a tank (I play OP and TR) I prefer good TR in my party more than good CW, and as a TR I can carry through thrash even kinda beginner tank.
I love the level of self induced blindness we have here yet again. We have all these guys who play ranged classes with dodges and heavy dps+control come and preach how the new content is "just fine" and the difficulty should not be reduced because the game "will become boring again".
Cool story you are all selling but Im not buying it. Truth is something has to change, I dont know what and I dont want to try and give developer advice to Cryptic, im sure they know more than me but often they have a tendency to fail to see how the majority of their player base feels. Im playing melee classes, always have, always will. This is what I like, this is what I spent money on, my toons are geared and without being a pro Im pretty sure I know how to play them. In reality however any instance 1600 and up is not designed for the melee classes. Any time my Paladin, who has insane HP and defences, gets the aggro from more than 2-4 critters I fall. If the mobs are melee I can survive by kiting, if there is a ranged mob like the Lich in Kessel I fall.
Mod 6 brought us mobs who can not be tanked, mobs who must be avoided and/or hard cc_ed. Where do melee fighters fit in that meta? Honest question. My GWF cant dodge, nor can my Paladin, nor my GF and sadly those last two cant block either. The only way a 1600 and above instance can be completed is by having Control Wizards. I saw it with my own eyes. Tanks bring almost nothing to the table as things stand now (except for being the initial aggro grabber while the party's CWs set up their rotations ). Is my purpose as a tank in mod 6, to go in, entertain the mobs for a few seconds and die while my party clears. Rinse and repeat. I do not play to die.
Go ahead and prove me wrong, I'll be happy to admit that I need to learn to play.
Sorry, but if you are playing 2k+ (earlier post) and have trouble in T1, I'd suggest to run multiple times with people that play with those classes you play, and notice what they are doing, if you find someone good ask them their rotation, spec, and check the gear distribution ,also /combatlog 1 and check ACT later (more usefull for GWF than GF probably) can be extremely helpful.
Some of the best players to play with that I met are meele (GWF mainly), T1 are totally irrelevant and can be done with multiple party composition, in T2 the group has to work together, and it has nothing to do with meele or not. Focus the archers/small spiders, cc them/kill them prone in time and everyone will live happily ever after, fail to to focus the right thing, use cc at the right time, sidestep the big attacks or move from the big bad red and you will die no matter what class you are, meele, ranged, dps or tank.
Some damage meant to be tanked, some you must avoid, it's your job to understand the difference and move at the right time and hold aggro as tank.
If you are GWF, you dps, focus what needed and prone them when needed if no other CC available.
If some GFs can hold ToS synderin(last boss name) and the spiders until they are dead just after making it to 70 with no exceptional gear at all, i'm sure you can hold T1.
PS. I main meele class, since just after release. And doing T1 with not a single CW is not an issue.
I love the level of self induced blindness we have here yet again. We have all these guys who play ranged classes with dodges and heavy dps+control come and preach how the new content is "just fine" and the difficulty should not be reduced because the game "will become boring again".
Cool story you are all selling but Im not buying it. Truth is something has to change, I dont know what and I dont want to try and give developer advice to Cryptic, im sure they know more than me but often they have a tendency to fail to see how the majority of their player base feels. Im playing melee classes, always have, always will. This is what I like, this is what I spent money on, my toons are geared and without being a pro Im pretty sure I know how to play them. In reality however any instance 1600 and up is not designed for the melee classes. Any time my Paladin, who has insane HP and defences, gets the aggro from more than 2-4 critters I fall. If the mobs are melee I can survive by kiting, if there is a ranged mob like the Lich in Kessel I fall.
Mod 6 brought us mobs who can not be tanked, mobs who must be avoided and/or hard cc_ed. Where do melee fighters fit in that meta? Honest question. My GWF cant dodge, nor can my Paladin, nor my GF and sadly those last two cant block either. The only way a 1600 and above instance can be completed is by having Control Wizards. I saw it with my own eyes. Tanks bring almost nothing to the table as things stand now (except for being the initial aggro grabber while the party's CWs set up their rotations ). Is my purpose as a tank in mod 6, to go in, entertain the mobs for a few seconds and die while my party clears. Rinse and repeat. I do not play to die.
Go ahead and prove me wrong, I'll be happy to admit that I need to learn to play.
I posted a video of a VT run I did on my CW earlier. Three melee players and while we had to click revive a few times, it's far from being the slaughter you say it is for melee characters. One CW can provide all the control you need. Control is required, like tanking or healing. How is that wrong?
Also as a tank your job isn't to tank all the things at the same time, you're not a god, just a paladin. Take the two biggest critters apart (those hitting for 40-60k) and let the CW or HR take care of the rest.
Whatever guys, obviously we dont see eye to eye and thats fine. You think its OK for a tank with 180k HP, 65% DR and shields up to die from aggroing 4-5 trash mobs in tuern or kessel and I think that is problem. Period
You post that you are willing to admit that you have stuff to learn, and yet when people try to explain you that with some team work and aggro management others doing fine. You end with "Period". Maybe a player can try to adapt to the world, before trying to adapt the world to a player ?
tuern is unplayable, whne it doesn't lag like the end of the world i'll be able to say something.
Kessles is doable with no GF/Tank, so how all of us squishes manage ?
But, anyway, I think this is thread about T2 and their difficulty, which is agree is a step up and takes a lot of coordination and work, and some like CC are extreme jump. But if you have issues with the T1, maybe ask the respective class forums, I think people posted better explanations there and it will be more helpful.
And just a side note, the first time I personally finished ToS was with a pally tank (i'm not the pally, but a pally was the tank in the group).
Comments
I don't know which tanks you're playing with, but ours takes the big red trash drake just fine. There are some attacks you can block, and there are some you need to avoid. That big red one where it turns in a circle is probably one you can't block, but there's enough time to move out of it before it does damage. (Not to mention that drakes are freezable and also entangleable if in doubt)
If you're talking about the green small trash drakes - they've always been a problem in uncoordinated parties, since they do an AoE attack and if this hits the whole party while the GF has KV on, it kills him. That's why they're always first targets to kill - they're still squishy.
Hints:
1) Don't use ranged attacks as an opener for elol trash groups, as they will seperate the elite mobs from the drakes, which can then do their AoE attacks uncontested from behind. Let GF+CW run in instead and open with control.
2) Don't wear T1 or T2 armor for the set bonus for now. They might still be useful in the future when geared up a bit more, but currently you die when you use them. And when you're dead the set bonus doesn't gain you anything.
3) Don't use Feytouched, as this will - while enhancing your own personal damage by 100-200% because it's broken - turn every single attack of them into a 1shot.
True. There are some red splat attacks that even the tanks have to side-step or avoid. Which is true in almost every MMO I've ever played a tank in...you're not suppose to just sit there, block and win. You have to be smart about which attacks you're blocking and which attacks you're avoiding.
and dont yell at your healers because you decided not to avoid them =P ..
Now animations are shorter, you get dmg even when blocking but you have higher walking speed when blocking (changed with mod 4 before you had like halfed movment speed) so you can get out of red. And now your block lasts 20-30 secs with shield talent on.
I dont have problems with t1 and scirmishes. I have problem with such mechanics as in second stage of final fight in tos. When you have to block blue rey or she will be healed. This ray kill thrue shield, thats stupid because you have to intercept it, meaning some1 have to die. Not always you have warrior with steal defence on in right time..
Steel and Magic
Bosses have extremely few OHK spells, mostly red areas and no you're NOT supposed to be able to soak them while the healer heals you and the team quietly kills adds or something. And all of these OHK with no red area (I see two on top of my head) have very obvious animations which means you have plenty of time to step back to avoid being hit.
As a tank you're not supposed to be a god among mortals on the battlefield. You're not immortal and hopefully you'll never be, otherwise it means the game is in such a poor state that the devs completely gave up on giving us a new, interesting experience requiring to learn how our own characters and how npcs work.
It's the cleric's job to soak the green beam and he will take 0 damage - yes 0 as in zero. Or take someone with a dodge to do it while using the immunity frame... This beam even healed my DC a couple of times.
I would LOVE a dev or two to explain to me how am I supposed to outlast 300k dmg burst on initial pull of TRASH mobs, current tanking for 1600 instances looks like "aggro, turn on Benny Hill theme, RUN FOR IT praying there are no ranged mobs". DCs AS doesn't help.
Are they no CC classes anymore? All trash CC immun?
I thought: CCed mobs cant make damage. Wrong?
The fact of the matter is that not only did they destroy the fun in running dungeons but made it impossible and lets not forget that they made away with almost all of the dungeons that was there, so yeah dungeon running is fun anymore. The current format of this game is a bloody joke, and the game sinking to the bottom of the sea, if they don't change things soon, but as history is proof of facts, things is just going to get worst the longer we wait.
I apologize if I sound so pessimistic, normally I always try and see the positive in things, but the way they have the destroy the game that we love, there is not way to stay positive any more. It's one thing when you screw up a class, it's another thing to destroy the game utterly, and this is what is happening at the moment. It's sad because the game we loved to play for the last 2 years is utter garbage now.
You can't CC permanently every single one of them.
It doesn't take a genius that mobs doing 300% of tanks HP non crit are clearly NOT intended, end game or not.
When it takes all exploits possible, rank 10 or better enchants, all campaign boons and BIS gear you are supposed to get from them just to have a chance at finishing dungeon its definitely NOT intended as well.
Except that the Devs. in this case, threw the iceberg at the boat...
After changing the boat from steel to tissue paper.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
Watch and think about it.... Learn when and how you can use skills. Think about to tank "different". Think about how you play your class and maybe respecc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNdyM0Vjyzc
No BIS gear btw...
Right now i also believe that game is finally where is should be in terms of difficulty. Yes your tank shouldnt just stay and bluntly take hits, its a tank which means it should be able to give the party a few seconds of relief, not just sitting still and taking hits. The majority are SO SPOILED from the previous modules where all thought they were superheroes that now i see crying everywhere. Just learn to PLAY and ENJOY an epic adventure, else go play a foundry, really.
2 per 2 .............. -_-
Difficulty of the T1 dungeons is fine. Difficulty of the 2 first boss of T2 is fine. But the last boss is unkillable si you'll never get the 50 seals coffer. And while you'll drop only 2 seals from the first two boss, the T2 set will be impossible to get. And players will not continue to remain on a game where they have no chance of getting their stuff unless farming H24.
IT IS SUPPOSED TO TAKE YOU A MONTH OR EVEN MORE for being able to acquire all new epic equipment, what is wrong with ALL THE people? Anxiety, panic disorder, selfishness....GET REAL PLEASE
All dungeon runs except one on my CW. one run on my trapper HR.
All queue runs.
Almost every CW is spellstorm CW, same as in module 5.
Almost all CW spam oppressive force which pushes mob away in 360 deg.
Almost all CW play CW as dps and a little control.
Almost all HR are playing HR as dps. No attempt to control.
Today, SW ask me, should I use CC? Since our group did not have a tank,
it should have been clear to any knowledgeable player that CC is vital without a tank.
Even with a tank, more CC is usually better than less CC.
When I played my trapper HR, we had no tank, and two non-aggressive CW's (one with blue shield and one without shield) which meant I had to attack mob first. Even with 2 CW and one trapper HR, we were wiping multiple times, until I switch to my frost enchantment.
I tried to explain the benefit of frost enchantment but no one responded. Instead, I see flaming enchantments which may look nice but it does not help us to survive. The players were complaining about one-shots, even though, if both CW used optimized build, the run would have been much smoother.
One time, I saw a CW enter cragmire crypt with only 27k HP. Have no clue how that is possible.
Since that time, I always inspect other characters in the party, especially CW since crowd control is so important.
Since I don't play GWF/GF/OP, I can't give useful comments about them.
When I see a tank use CC, I appreciate it, even if it's not the optimal way to play.
Sometimes I see TR use smoke bomb and sometimes not.
I admit that CW is probably more useful than most or all other classes in dungeons. However .....
if CW is nerfed, then we will need more CW to complete dungeons.
If dungeons are nerfed, then there is no need to buy zen because we are overgeared compared to module 5.
Solution is to buff melee classes. Maybe give them more control or more damage resistance in dungeons.
In T1/T2 current state, there is little reason to bring tank into dungeon except for final boss fight.
Yes, in final boss fight, tank is useful. But everywhere else, a dps class with crowd control would be more useful.
The best tank I ever saw was a paladin who did amazing job of aggro and kited the final boss (and sometimes adds) in Epic Gray Wolf Den. Maybe there are some good tanks who can be very effective in T1/T2 but I rarely see them.
ELOL is definitely easier than the T2s. Maybe someone in your party was using feytouch enchant.
Singularity is great except it doesn't control mobs from shooting and while they are being pulled into the singularity, a lot of abilities will miss (not sure if they fixed that or not). Oppressive force's aoe daze is decent. I'm more concerned about the cw's who use Ice Storm.
The two biggest issues that I have with eLOL aren't so much related to enemy difficulty:
1. Lag. Ever since mod 6, the lag everywhere has been unbearable, and in a fast-paced place like eLOL it makes it nearly impossible (not completely, because even we can get lucky sometimes). All too often there are instant-red areas that are un-dodgeable because you're dead as soon as you see them. Succeeding in eLOL absolutely depends on cracker-jack timing and lighting-fast reflexes, which the mod-6 lag makes impossible.
2. FPS. Here's an example: at the midpoint of the fight, when Lostmauth flies away, he leaves smoke on the ground in his wake. This smoke kills my framerate. For those few seconds until it dissipates, it makes it pretty much impossible to dodge the falling rocks in the center. I've lost count of the number of times I got hit because I couldn't react.
Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
Your comment is a good example which shows players are unwilling to adapt to dungeons.
In order to use oppressive force, you must be in close range.
Singularity can be used at far range. Singularity and Furious Immolation are excellent openers which most CW (in queue party) never use.
Sing or FI on mob, dodge once or twice, icy terrain, steal time.
Use frost enchantment if more control is needed
Alternatively, dodge into center of mob. Use oppressive force.
Mob will be spead out. Unlikely entire mob can be frozen on one icy terrain.
A well played CW requires no help to clear dungeon mobs.
I was able to solo the first few mobs in cragmire crypt with my Master of Flame Renegade/Thau (previously Renegade/Opp) CW, until players began to join. Needed some practice and several respecs to be able to do that, though.
I run VT with no CW. I need 1 class to controll. And if got a choice i prefare a TR in my Grp ( for VT. For eCC and ToS i prefare TR + CW). But for VT i dont need any CW. A good TR + a good GF and a DC its all wot i need for VT. In eLoL the same:
You dont need a CW for eLoL. Take 1 good TR and you will see with your own eyes that this dungeon is easy to clear. Talk to your DC that he should use his ability to stun 1 scorpion for a minute. So the they scorpion fight is very easy. No adds at endboss in eLoL. Every TR/GWF is much much better in single DPS. So the endboss is much easier with good DPS classes like TR/GWF.
I didnt try eCC or ToS without a CW, but i will try it.
So...its nice and helpfull to have a CW in your grp. But you dont need one for eLoL and if you got a really good TR/DC you dont ned a CW in VT either. I made a lot runs without CW. Fastest VT runs i made was with a grp: GF/DC/2TRs/GWF. Same in eLoL. I loooove Smokebomb ^^.
Sorry, but if you are playing 2k+ (earlier post) and have trouble in T1, I'd suggest to run multiple times with people that play with those classes you play, and notice what they are doing, if you find someone good ask them their rotation, spec, and check the gear distribution ,also /combatlog 1 and check ACT later (more usefull for GWF than GF probably) can be extremely helpful.
Some of the best players to play with that I met are meele (GWF mainly), T1 are totally irrelevant and can be done with multiple party composition, in T2 the group has to work together, and it has nothing to do with meele or not. Focus the archers/small spiders, cc them/kill them prone in time and everyone will live happily ever after, fail to to focus the right thing, use cc at the right time, sidestep the big attacks or move from the big bad red and you will die no matter what class you are, meele, ranged, dps or tank.
Some damage meant to be tanked, some you must avoid, it's your job to understand the difference and move at the right time and hold aggro as tank.
If you are GWF, you dps, focus what needed and prone them when needed if no other CC available.
If some GFs can hold ToS synderin(last boss name) and the spiders until they are dead just after making it to 70 with no exceptional gear at all, i'm sure you can hold T1.
PS. I main meele class, since just after release. And doing T1 with not a single CW is not an issue.
I posted a video of a VT run I did on my CW earlier. Three melee players and while we had to click revive a few times, it's far from being the slaughter you say it is for melee characters. One CW can provide all the control you need. Control is required, like tanking or healing. How is that wrong?
Also as a tank your job isn't to tank all the things at the same time, you're not a god, just a paladin. Take the two biggest critters apart (those hitting for 40-60k) and let the CW or HR take care of the rest.
You post that you are willing to admit that you have stuff to learn, and yet when people try to explain you that with some team work and aggro management others doing fine. You end with "Period". Maybe a player can try to adapt to the world, before trying to adapt the world to a player ?
tuern is unplayable, whne it doesn't lag like the end of the world i'll be able to say something.
Kessles is doable with no GF/Tank, so how all of us squishes manage ?
But, anyway, I think this is thread about T2 and their difficulty, which is agree is a step up and takes a lot of coordination and work, and some like CC are extreme jump. But if you have issues with the T1, maybe ask the respective class forums, I think people posted better explanations there and it will be more helpful.
And just a side note, the first time I personally finished ToS was with a pally tank (i'm not the pally, but a pally was the tank in the group).