complicated, yes (seens like a feat to be added). but will work and will work in a specifc scenario (overbuff ac just for fighters in form of dr, only will create problems in pvp, and will come a cry, and you know what will happen).
other classes have ac and other tools. if, in the end, you up a gf dr in +50% and a rogue dr in +25%, and, after that, down the monsters damage, well...
that is the point to create a omelette. fix a pve problems in pve and fix a pvp problem in pvp.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
There seems to be something broken with the damage mobs deal. I dont know if they forgot to be "scaled" back because of the formula change you guys made with mobs 2+ levels being much harder or what, but the dungeons are clearly broken..
I took two screen shots of just two examples of these. I have EASILY enough gear score(item level). I have 100k HP I have a Transcendent Weapon enchant I have the "empowered" black ice versions of the PVP gear (meaning rank 5 black ice upgraded them) so gear isnt the issue, I have perfect Negation even... and over 100k HP....
Look at the two images 1 is from Epic Layer of Lostmouth, the 1st boss throws an undodgeable spear at you as you run in towards him as his ranged attack.... It ONE shots you.
If you are close to him his attack ONE shots you and I am NOT talking "RED" area here, these are the basic attack.......
Another is Temple of Spider (which we got to the last boss and was IMPOSSIBLE) This is one of the first mobs and he hit be for over 1 MILLION damage?!? Again this isnt "RED" area - check for yourself the name of the attack.
The boss (Spider) was only even reachable because we ran through the entire dungeon without killing. Ill gladly share how we did what we did, if these issues are addressed, otherwise I dont see these dungeons even being possible without the help of some glitches.... Which still kept us from finishing Spider and we had to skip most of the dungeon to even get to TRY the boss.
We were able to finish ELOL thanks to some bugs, we couldnt even finish spider. The small spiders and even the blade masters just 1 shot our players with <100k HP. ONE SHOT, this isnt a "skill" issue its just broken....
the attack with spear is dodgeable...........................................
This is coming from a GF that helped take down Valindra with a Healing SW.
I am sure that anyone who had a higher gear score... could do it... blah blah blah. We just ran a REGULAR t1 VT... everyone was getting one-shot. If it wasn't for soulforged we would not have been in the game. We made it to V and wiped 3 times. Everything hits hard... not just the bosses. I do not see that anyone would be able to finish it... with the considered minimum 1600 Item Level for entrance. The average for all of us was about 2300. We had the DPS, and the tank... and the heals.
When not just the boss hits for 100k+ and the tank has just over that, what is the DPS supposed to do?
I would like to see a video of a group that finishes, until then... anyone who says that they have killed everything in a t2, let alone a t1, are lying. PERIOD...
Words are worthless... action is for millionaires.
the attack with spear is dodgeable...........................................
Oh man why didn't I think of that... When do GWFs unlock dodge? Mine is lvl 70 and I still don't see that ability maybe you can post your GWF build an show me which ability you use to dodge this?
Also I guess you have to also pray you don't hit a small lag spike too and miss that window to dodge right...
Never winter: if you don't play x class with unparalleled internet, you might as well not play at all.
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cromejohnsenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 207Arc User
edited April 2015
So we are supposed to run 4 cws and 1 dc right because i cant remember a real tank having a dodge mechanic implemented can you `??
LOL hearing that the spear is dodgeable..... made my day.
Instead of posting some useless facts he could have come up with a legit strategy to tank that guy.
Rather just reduce PVE mob damage since its irrelevant to a non-tank class, they get 1 shot if the damage is 1 million or 100k. Right now its like 200-300l GROSS thus like 100-150k NET.
If the damage was even 100k GROSS it would be <50k NET for a tank class and nearly 1 shot a non-tank.
I still think WHITE hits should never be more than about 30k on a tank... Which would be near 50k for a non tank.
Also buffing AC would be a MAJOR buff to tanks giving them more than a few SINGLE DIGIT DR %.
It's already possible to turn a 300k hit into a 50-60k one already. Proof: my team did it in grey wold den.
I may add some figures to that assessment: As a DC I did more damage than healing and we made it to the final boss and tried to kill it 6-7 times. IIRC top damage was the GWF with 200M damage, I did 25M damage and healed for 20M. And I was the only healer. My only damage spell was divine glow. For 2h30 of dungeon delving that's really not a lot of healing.
So the impossible to tank damage is a myth. The truth is that no one tried yet what we tried, ie stacking several layers of mitigation, damage reduction, and different defensive stuff which isn't related to hit points and DR. But it is completely doable. You people are so obsessed with DR and armor class that you forget there are many, many spells adding extra damage mitigation, allowing anyone to go way beyond the mythical 80% DR cap.
gwf secundary function: "The epitome of strength, the Great Weapon Fighter is also resilient enough to defend allies in need.""
defender discription: Defenders take a lot of damage, mark targets and protect the rest of the party. If enemies they target try to attack another member of the party the defender will attack to stun, damage or taunt enemies to protect their companions.
is cws/dcs that need be protected by a fighter. a first line protect the second line. in this case, gfs at least need protect the party better than a individual can protect yourself.
lets be clear. what part about "to "fix" the broken reworks of m4/m5 modules and, of course, cws in the first place" devs choose destroy the defender function you dont understand? "oh, do more damage than my cw friend"; yes, is the primary function of the class. should do a lot more damage than dcs and cws (by the way, cw still need a huge damage nerf). but and my secundary function, TAKE DAMAGE TO PROTECT THE PARTY?
ps, I have already given the solution to the problem.
debuffed or not, shielded or not, cws die at least 2 attacks, destroyers 8 (or less if do the battle fury stance thing instead to stacks), gfs ... I have no idea.
the dungeons are broken and there is a chance to adjust them and for the first time, bringing balance to the game and importance to the defender function. program this and solve their problems.
or listening two or tree cws players happy to this new madness.
should do a lot more damage than dcs and cws (by the way, cw still need a huge damage nerf).
You know that Wizards are the most powerful class in D&D, right?
In any event, toning down CW DPS in Mod 6 would require an adjustment to control. The new mobs are much less controllable than previously which means that those of us who were looking forward to using more control-based builds have had to fall back to full DPS builds instead. At least for solo play. In team play a full control build should be viable.
EDIT: I do agree that Disintegrate is all kinds of OP though. No idea how that made it to live.
It's already possible to turn a 300k hit into a 50-60k one already. Proof: my team did it in grey wold den.
I may add some figures to that assessment: As a DC I did more damage than healing and we made it to the final boss and tried to kill it 6-7 times. IIRC top damage was the GWF with 200M damage, I did 25M damage and healed for 20M. And I was the only healer. My only damage spell was divine glow. For 2h30 of dungeon delving that's really not a lot of healing.
So the impossible to tank damage is a myth. The truth is that no one tried yet what we tried, ie stacking several layers of mitigation, damage reduction, and different defensive stuff which isn't related to hit points and DR. But it is completely doable. You people are so obsessed with DR and armor class that you forget there are many, many spells adding extra damage mitigation, allowing anyone to go way beyond the mythical 80% DR cap.
So a GWF is not allowed to tank? I didnt realize that was no in their description since you are telling us that you require a GF+DC in order to play a GWF....
Also with a DC, their buffs like AS are not 100% uptime. So your really only now looking at a GF with KV on that can "buff" the party by splitting damage with the group which doesnt count as "DR buff" BTW.
Also, I already KNOW what you are proposing and I never said you CANT do these dungeons but its HOW you are required to do them.
A GF "tanking" who is forced to hide behind shield with KV up while the CW CCs the entire group of mobs doesnt count as "tanking" IMO, he is basically just a buff bot.
So in your world there is NO room for:
A Tank GWF (Sentinel)
Or a DPS Conq GF
or a DPS DC
I can go on...
As ZACAZU said below. Defender Description:
"Defenders take a lot of damage, mark targets and protect the rest of the party. If enemies they target try to attack another member of the party the defender will attack to stun, damage or taunt enemies to protect their companions."
BUt it seems like the REAL implementation of the class in THIS game (and as you claim to like it)
"Defenders buff the group. If an enemy tries to attack the defender, his control wizard will stun, damage, or control the enemy to protect the defender"
A GF CANNOT "lunge into" a group of mobs and "tank". A GWF cannot take the first hit of damage without a DC AS down and even then, if the majority of the mobs are not controlled or are not attacking (trying to attack) a TR or HR or something, he just dies.
I have been hit on my GWF for 50-60k, however thats ONE WHITE HIT with GF KV up. Guess what happens 1 second later? Hit AGAIN for 50-60k. DEAD.
Ive DPSd in a group of mobs as well and I am Destroyer and DO deal good DPS. Guess what happens if there is a break in "control" and because I am dealing good damage... The mob turns to me and hits me for 300k+. Now IF DC AS is down and IF the GF is using KV, then yes that 1 hit turns into 50-60k. What if AS is NOT down? Im dead.
A Melee DPS class has no way to survive, let alone tank if he wants to tank spec.
Again, noone said it was NOT possible. Its just that it requires X type of group who are X type of builds who use X type of encounters.
I am ALL FOR it being hard... Look there were people who LOVED the Diablo 3 insane difficulty. They were called wizards because it was the EXACT SAME ISSUE. Melee classes were screwed because the mobs dealt too much damage. The ranged Wizards loved it because only they could run the content by damage and kiting and controlling enemies.
We see the same thing now in Neverwinter. Melee classes are worthless unless they have massive buffs OR you can just take more CWs who can DPS and control everything.
I DO think PVE should be hard. But I DONT think Hard = "You MUST play this way with this group with these encounters". Hard can still mean difficult mobs, heck id like to see MORE control immune mobs - now THAT is TRULY "hard" content because you are REQUIRED to have a tank.
However as it stands right now, 90%+ of the mobs are controllable, making CW mandatory and since they deal insane damage (even netted down with DR to 50-60k a hit) you PROVE the point that the tank is NOT tanking! Because even he cant take more than about 3 of those hits so if he has agro on all 5 mobs he insta-dies!
Increasing the potency of armor class sounds like an excellent start. I say that instead of giving people HP pools capable of absorbing this damage in some useful way that the mobs crazy damage outputs be toned back. I have seen some suggestions like giving mobs in certain encounters special buffs, some could be situational, some could be permanent. For instance you can have a group that you must defeat as quickly as possible and if you take too long they gain multipliers to their damage output.
I can think of PLENTY of scenarios like this to make mundane encounters in dungeons less predictable and less boring... Hell, you can even create a system of preset conditions like this and spread them randomly among some pre-existing encounters throughout the game (this would probably lead to some being harder than others and people might not like having bad luck and getting the hardest ones 4x in a dungeon run.). Obviously, this would be the lazy route, instead of balancing each encounter individually.
"Oh for !@#$'s sake, even if inferno IS beatable with ANY kind of build, do you seriously think it's GOOD hard and not LAME hard?
The difficulty of Diablo 3 is just LAME, it's not really hard it's just gimped. It's not fun or rewarding to get past a tough area, it just feels like "oh, I FINALLY managed to beat this broken area...".
It feels like we gotta find cracks in the system to get past broken combinations of monsters.
There's no ingenuity in the combinations, abilities or what the game requires you to do/achieve/think of to overcome the obstacles.
Diablo 3 is a broken game, it's not a hard game"
Neverwinter is a BROKEN game, not a hard game. there is a BIG difference.
Again, noone said it was NOT possible. Its just that it requires X type of group who are X type of builds who use X type of encounters.
Absolutely. This is how group content works in MMOs. There are optimal builds and rotations and you either use them or find another group to play with. There's nothing wrong with that, because in a MMO, in group content, your team has to come before your wishes in terms of build. If group content should make room for the terrible builds and parties of 5 GWFs/ 4 rangers + 1 SW or whatever, then there's no way to make it challenging.
A good challenge will make support mandatory, which means that some people will have to play their characters in a specific way, and do what it takes to progress through the instance. If you don't like that, it's fine, there are T1s, pvp and solo content, but you don't HAVE to demand to be able to play the most difficult dungeons with your useless build just because you feel entitled to. There's currently content for everyone, including people willing to rely heavily on teamwork. If that's not what you like then stick to T1s, the rewards are better anyway.
Absolutely. This is how group content works in MMOs. There are optimal builds and rotations and you either use them or find another group to play with. There's nothing wrong with that, because in a MMO, in group content, your team has to come before your wishes in terms of build. If group content should make room for the terrible builds and parties of 5 GWFs/ 4 rangers + 1 SW or whatever, then there's no way to make it challenging.
A good challenge will make support mandatory, which means that some people will have to play their characters in a specific way, and do what it takes to progress through the instance. If you don't like that, it's fine, there are T1s, pvp and solo content, but you don't HAVE to demand to be able to play the most difficult dungeons with your useless build just because you feel entitled to. There's currently content for everyone, including people willing to rely heavily on teamwork. If that's not what you like then stick to T1s, the rewards are better anyway.
You got a point there, but in this case it is a slap to the face of many players, who have chosen classes, which don't function as they should.
If game would have been introduced with CW and TR, i would say ok, find the best out of these 2, but game has 8 classes and the players, who have chosen the others too or if one has them as alts, what should he do now? Throw them in the virtual bin? Or is it normal, we are asking the Devs to keep up a standard, especially those of us, who have invested real money into those other toons as well.
And the problem goes even deeper, if you look at the TR now, some paragon trees are completely useless and this goes for CW and other classes too.
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
So ayroux, what exactly do you want? Hard PVE content that is doable by any team composition? That is a contradiction in terms.
If the content is truly hard, then you will want to have a tank and a healer and a controller. That means you can't finish it with 5xGWF or 5xSW teams. Tough noogies.
You got a point there, but in this case it is a slap to the face of many players, who have chosen classes, which don't function as they should.
If game would have been introduced with CW and TR, i would say ok, find the best out of these 2, but game has 8 classes and the players, who have chosen the others too or if one has them as alts, what should he do now? Throw them in the virtual bin? Or is it normal, we are asking the Devs to keep up a standard, especially those of us, who have invested real money into those other toons as well.
And the problem goes even deeper, if you look at the TR now, some paragon trees are completely useless and this goes for CW and other classes too.
There's room for every class. Currently you need support from: HRs, DCs and GFs (or paladin). That's 4 classes. A CW as a cotnroller is also very useful. Then there's the wildcard and it may be any class. I don't see the issue. Again there are T1s and they're pretty easy too. And as far as I know you didn't "buy" an entrance pass to the hardest content in game. You bought some character power for personal reasons, and that's fine, but it doesn't mean you're entitled to play anything with the party you like, the way you like. Any game has its rules, even the sims have rules, so why would MMOs not have some rules for specific and difficult content?
I doubt anyone is contemplating a 5 man sw team. The problem is bringing one is a waste of a space. The same is true of gwf. Their dps doesn't significantly exceed well specced cws and they add nothing else so you lose a lot of prevention of damage bringing one. I don't mind doing t1s with them because its fine. The mobs are punchy but not punchy enough to go full lockdown or get rekt. In t2s, nah. Rather bring the group most likely to win. I like the hardness cause I missed it a lot but gwf and sw need to be viable choices not total anchors that you win in spite of.
So ayroux, what exactly do you want? Hard PVE content that is doable by any team composition? That is a contradiction in terms.
If the content is truly hard, then you will want to have a tank and a healer and a controller. That means you can't finish it with 5xGWF or 5xSW teams. Tough noogies.
Obviously not. People who have spent time and effort in getting their favourite (maybe only) character to the level cap, say GF for example, would want dungeons to require a tank.
Similarly for a DC healer, dps, and so on......
That rule should apply equally to players of all classes.
Unfortunately we no longer have that, and Mod 6 has seen the situation significantly worsen.
It is ok to have content that requires significant group co-operation, and the tank/healer/dps has been a pretty standard way of doing this.
The same development time should be directed toward ensuring that all class types should be welcomed into these groups. If there are a couple of tank classes for example, then both should be operating at the same level of performance, or one will be the "must have" and the other will get ignored. Same for healers, same for dps.
Now even with the most balanced system there are bound to be slight differences in character output, and players would accept that. Some classes can bring more control, others don't but have a higher dps output to mitigate this (for example).
What complicates the issue here are the feat paths. (Again as an example) - they not only provide different ways of building a dps character, some of the feat paths can change what the class actually is.
Now the players didn't magically create these feat paths, they are entirely the creation of the development team and their responsibility to ensure their quality. Feat paths are at the core of each character, fundamental to how a class type works.
If the developers create healing or support feat paths for a class, then it is pretty fundamental for those feat paths to be effective - what is the point of having them in if they're not. There may as well be blank spaces as no one would choose them.
Secondly, and this is an area that causes immense frustration, there should be ongoing consistency in these different feat builds. Sure there may be some minor adjustments as things get tweaked a bit, that's generally accepted.
But we do not have that here.
What we have are feat paths which suffer from wide swings in effectiveness as the developers either raise a class build to the top of the food chain, then it is plummeted to the 'not wanted in any group' level.
These wild swings in class role effectiveness ignore the basics of why people selected them in the first place. Some people like playing a tank, others a healer, others melee dps, others ranged dps, others ranged support, others melee support, etc etc.
It is fairly obvious that if you suddenly change the effectiveness of a melee dps from being effective to being poor, then you are going to create significant disillusionment with those players. You also create an environment where other players start to wonder if their class is going to be next in line for the wild downswing. So they could ask themselves, why put all the time and effort into their character if it's going to be made useless in some future change?
Class balancing is, and always has been, notoriously difficult no matter the mmo. Some do it better than others.
Achieving as good a balance as possible across the classes is best done by marginal adjustments as time goes on.
Wild deviations from best to unwanted is the opposite of this. How can you possibly ensure that all classes retain an approximate level of equality in this environment?
Well the simple answer is you cannot. And the more the developers carry out these significant adjustments with the classes. the more frustrated and disillusioned some players will become.
...............vote for your favourite expansion.......... "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity". ..............not this one then.............
So ayroux, what exactly do you want? Hard PVE content that is doable by any team composition? That is a contradiction in terms.
If the content is truly hard, then you will want to have a tank and a healer and a controller. That means you can't finish it with 5xGWF or 5xSW teams. Tough noogies.
Not at all. But again, hard =/= high damage mobs.
Again its not Hard current BECAUSE of any damage. Players are able to do the dungeons because they NEGATE out all the damage with control.
HARD NEEDS to be about half+ of the mobs are control immune FORCING tanks to do their jobs.
I dont care how much you stack DR, or how much you are buffed by a team, a mob HITTING for 1 million damage? CLEARLY its not WAI.
Obviously each team needs their roles, but it goes back to pre module 1 days where tanks were never needed because you just control everything... Thats what alot of the issue is HOWEVER remove the control and then the REAL issue comes out, mob damage.
On my GWF with Pure Negation, Dr stacking 100k HP etc. I Threat Rushed into TWO mobs and with my mark it pulled agro (these are simple mobs, controllable etc) My TEAM was fighting the other 3+ of them and controlling them and I just happened to pull agro on TWO mobs.
They each hit me for 60k and I insta died.
Now why is a GWF class, stacking DR, HP, and fully defensive gear unable to tank 2 mobs at once? Not 5, not a BIG mob, NOT a "red" damage. But plane jane mobs that WHITE HIT me for 60k each and insta killed me.....
CLEARLY its not WAI.
Diablo 3 tired this and it failed because only certain CLASSES could complete the content. Obviously you need a balanced group... But the way the dungeons are designed atm its not hard, its just stupid.
there is no reason to continue to discuss.
when you get 1 shot regardless what it hits you, the game is just broken.
and this dynamic destroys many classes.
how in the hell am i supposed to stack not working wild medicine if i m oneshotted everytime by a single hit?
whats the point in lifesteal?
what s the point in having a healer or a tank or a pure dps which does less damage than the controller but nevermind?
broken.
The other issue is classes LIKE TR for example are FAR too resilient because they are able to tank better than tanks...
I DO think each dungeon should require both a healer and a tank. As well as possibly a controller.
However their solution is to make 95%+ mobs controllable and then just make them hit super hard all that does is favor classes who are super resilient like the TR, as well as classes that can control mobs perma like the CW.
This is why I keep saying dont be fooled. A party that is clearing these things, its not really because they truly TANKED the dungeon, they just relied on their group to CC mobs and burst until dead.
Also, I know Paladins are super OP right now and give crazy party buffs. Since I know little about them and have never run with them I cant say the effect they bring but its POSSIBLE they are OP enough to alleviate this damage.
But then its "bring X class" or you cant do the dungeon.
Remember when MC was "CW/GWF" only that could interrupt the boss? How noone wanted to run it unless you had atleast 2 people that could interrupt.
Its basically the same thing. That "class restriction" DOESNT make it hard, it is just dumb.
I agree a BALANCED party is required but making some classes required and others not... Try and take a Sent GWF + DC into a group and see if the Sent GWF can run in even with AS down and tank mobs.
Should a TANK beable to TANK mobs with DC support? But he cant... That tells you something is wrong. Each class needs to be TESTED how effective their roll is.
A CW can control MORE than enough (maybe their control instead need to be target capped with 3-5?)
A TR can damage and survive MORE than enough.
Can a GF tank a group of 4 mobs even with DC support and NO CC? NOPE.
Can a GWF do it? NOPE.
So your REQUIRING the other roles but lessening the roles of tanks... You can do dungeons without a tank, you cant do them without CC.
You know that Wizards are the most powerful class in D&D, right?
by techniques reasons, maybe is best to review certain traditions.
As ZACAZU said below. Defender Description:
"Defenders take a lot of damage, mark targets and protect the rest of the party. If enemies they target try to attack another member of the party the defender will attack to stun, damage or taunt enemies to protect their companions."
BUt it seems like the REAL implementation of the class in THIS game (and as you claim to like it)
"Defenders buff the group. If an enemy tries to attack the defender, his control wizard will stun, damage, or control the enemy to protect the defender"
lets be honest, how disagree with that logic? that is the situation, that is the problem.
ps: exist a big difference between down the cc power and eliminate the tank capacity. because you got one thing called hegemony. cc+range is the single solid defense of this game. after that, debuffs.
a bad analogy: is like increase a tax on a product "x "trying to increase the inflow of a government. Large companies can afford this tax, not small. then they close.
You know that Wizards are the most powerful class in D&D, right?
So why not change the game to NeverWizard and delete all classes from the game right? I mean SHOULD an MMO have a most powerful class? This just seems silly to even SAY this...
Ive always thought that the CW should have different paths, one is DPS oriented, one is "debuff" oriented and one is control oriented.
Either way, Id like to see LESS damage come from auto procs and more on skill. The new mobs can still easily be controlled in tandem with another class like TR with smoke bomb + dazes.
I would like to see LESS emphasis placed on control in the future where control still plays an important roll in the group but not the ONLY roll like it is now..
I would like to see LESS emphasis placed on control in the future where control still plays an important roll in the group but not the ONLY roll like it is now..
All of the npcs have 90% CC resist in T2s. I'm talking about the regulard add. The real issue is the smoke bomb mechanic, it's permanently applied again when the effect ends on the npcs, if they're still in the smoke area. CWs CC are merely interrupts. You should really play a CW and try T2s some time, they're not the most useful class by a fair margin.
Either way, Id like to see LESS damage come from auto procs and more on skill. The new mobs can still easily be controlled in tandem with another class like TR with smoke bomb + dazes.
And making those procs work the way imagined is just spamming a button? Not really. It's all about timing, and the last thing any CW needs is someone spamming Frontline Surge and/or sunburst on top of the Icy Terrain. Arguably playing an effective CW is most skill-involving feat throughout the entire game. You either become a pro or end up being a mediocre player of a CW. The learning curve of CW is quite possibly the longest out of them all since you have to combine spells or, rather, rotations in order to do something effective.
Having things discussed from the "skill" perspective with someone who mains the gwf is just laughable. It's like a Fury SW player stating that it takes no skill playing a CW while he keeps spamming TT and does quadrillions of damage.
Sorry, you have to play a CW in order to understand just how crippled the class actually is. The "three paragon trees" doesn't work the way you think, it's far more complicated since there're internal and external things which influence the way CW plays a game. Bashing buttons and making procs do the job isn't really how CW's play.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Comments
other classes have ac and other tools. if, in the end, you up a gf dr in +50% and a rogue dr in +25%, and, after that, down the monsters damage, well...
that is the point to create a omelette. fix a pve problems in pve and fix a pvp problem in pvp.
the attack with spear is dodgeable...........................................
i laugh:) 2300 gf cant tank t1?:P
Oh man why didn't I think of that... When do GWFs unlock dodge? Mine is lvl 70 and I still don't see that ability maybe you can post your GWF build an show me which ability you use to dodge this?
Also I guess you have to also pray you don't hit a small lag spike too and miss that window to dodge right...
Never winter: if you don't play x class with unparalleled internet, you might as well not play at all.
LOL hearing that the spear is dodgeable..... made my day.
Instead of posting some useless facts he could have come up with a legit strategy to tank that guy.
It's already possible to turn a 300k hit into a 50-60k one already. Proof: my team did it in grey wold den.
I may add some figures to that assessment: As a DC I did more damage than healing and we made it to the final boss and tried to kill it 6-7 times. IIRC top damage was the GWF with 200M damage, I did 25M damage and healed for 20M. And I was the only healer. My only damage spell was divine glow. For 2h30 of dungeon delving that's really not a lot of healing.
So the impossible to tank damage is a myth. The truth is that no one tried yet what we tried, ie stacking several layers of mitigation, damage reduction, and different defensive stuff which isn't related to hit points and DR. But it is completely doable. You people are so obsessed with DR and armor class that you forget there are many, many spells adding extra damage mitigation, allowing anyone to go way beyond the mythical 80% DR cap.
defender discription: Defenders take a lot of damage, mark targets and protect the rest of the party. If enemies they target try to attack another member of the party the defender will attack to stun, damage or taunt enemies to protect their companions.
is cws/dcs that need be protected by a fighter. a first line protect the second line. in this case, gfs at least need protect the party better than a individual can protect yourself.
lets be clear. what part about "to "fix" the broken reworks of m4/m5 modules and, of course, cws in the first place" devs choose destroy the defender function you dont understand? "oh, do more damage than my cw friend"; yes, is the primary function of the class. should do a lot more damage than dcs and cws (by the way, cw still need a huge damage nerf). but and my secundary function, TAKE DAMAGE TO PROTECT THE PARTY?
ps, I have already given the solution to the problem.
debuffed or not, shielded or not, cws die at least 2 attacks, destroyers 8 (or less if do the battle fury stance thing instead to stacks), gfs ... I have no idea.
the dungeons are broken and there is a chance to adjust them and for the first time, bringing balance to the game and importance to the defender function. program this and solve their problems.
or listening two or tree cws players happy to this new madness.
In any event, toning down CW DPS in Mod 6 would require an adjustment to control. The new mobs are much less controllable than previously which means that those of us who were looking forward to using more control-based builds have had to fall back to full DPS builds instead. At least for solo play. In team play a full control build should be viable.
EDIT: I do agree that Disintegrate is all kinds of OP though. No idea how that made it to live.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
So a GWF is not allowed to tank? I didnt realize that was no in their description since you are telling us that you require a GF+DC in order to play a GWF....
Also with a DC, their buffs like AS are not 100% uptime. So your really only now looking at a GF with KV on that can "buff" the party by splitting damage with the group which doesnt count as "DR buff" BTW.
Also, I already KNOW what you are proposing and I never said you CANT do these dungeons but its HOW you are required to do them.
A GF "tanking" who is forced to hide behind shield with KV up while the CW CCs the entire group of mobs doesnt count as "tanking" IMO, he is basically just a buff bot.
So in your world there is NO room for:
A Tank GWF (Sentinel)
Or a DPS Conq GF
or a DPS DC
I can go on...
As ZACAZU said below. Defender Description:
"Defenders take a lot of damage, mark targets and protect the rest of the party. If enemies they target try to attack another member of the party the defender will attack to stun, damage or taunt enemies to protect their companions."
BUt it seems like the REAL implementation of the class in THIS game (and as you claim to like it)
"Defenders buff the group. If an enemy tries to attack the defender, his control wizard will stun, damage, or control the enemy to protect the defender"
A GF CANNOT "lunge into" a group of mobs and "tank". A GWF cannot take the first hit of damage without a DC AS down and even then, if the majority of the mobs are not controlled or are not attacking (trying to attack) a TR or HR or something, he just dies.
I have been hit on my GWF for 50-60k, however thats ONE WHITE HIT with GF KV up. Guess what happens 1 second later? Hit AGAIN for 50-60k. DEAD.
Ive DPSd in a group of mobs as well and I am Destroyer and DO deal good DPS. Guess what happens if there is a break in "control" and because I am dealing good damage... The mob turns to me and hits me for 300k+. Now IF DC AS is down and IF the GF is using KV, then yes that 1 hit turns into 50-60k. What if AS is NOT down? Im dead.
A Melee DPS class has no way to survive, let alone tank if he wants to tank spec.
Again, noone said it was NOT possible. Its just that it requires X type of group who are X type of builds who use X type of encounters.
I am ALL FOR it being hard... Look there were people who LOVED the Diablo 3 insane difficulty. They were called wizards because it was the EXACT SAME ISSUE. Melee classes were screwed because the mobs dealt too much damage. The ranged Wizards loved it because only they could run the content by damage and kiting and controlling enemies.
We see the same thing now in Neverwinter. Melee classes are worthless unless they have massive buffs OR you can just take more CWs who can DPS and control everything.
I DO think PVE should be hard. But I DONT think Hard = "You MUST play this way with this group with these encounters". Hard can still mean difficult mobs, heck id like to see MORE control immune mobs - now THAT is TRULY "hard" content because you are REQUIRED to have a tank.
However as it stands right now, 90%+ of the mobs are controllable, making CW mandatory and since they deal insane damage (even netted down with DR to 50-60k a hit) you PROVE the point that the tank is NOT tanking! Because even he cant take more than about 3 of those hits so if he has agro on all 5 mobs he insta-dies!
I can think of PLENTY of scenarios like this to make mundane encounters in dungeons less predictable and less boring... Hell, you can even create a system of preset conditions like this and spread them randomly among some pre-existing encounters throughout the game (this would probably lead to some being harder than others and people might not like having bad luck and getting the hardest ones 4x in a dungeon run.). Obviously, this would be the lazy route, instead of balancing each encounter individually.
This game right now reminds me of D3 when the "inferno" first came out. Here is ONE persons response about it:
(http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5149181408#12)
"Oh for !@#$'s sake, even if inferno IS beatable with ANY kind of build, do you seriously think it's GOOD hard and not LAME hard?
The difficulty of Diablo 3 is just LAME, it's not really hard it's just gimped. It's not fun or rewarding to get past a tough area, it just feels like "oh, I FINALLY managed to beat this broken area...".
It feels like we gotta find cracks in the system to get past broken combinations of monsters.
There's no ingenuity in the combinations, abilities or what the game requires you to do/achieve/think of to overcome the obstacles.
Diablo 3 is a broken game, it's not a hard game"
Neverwinter is a BROKEN game, not a hard game. there is a BIG difference.
Absolutely. This is how group content works in MMOs. There are optimal builds and rotations and you either use them or find another group to play with. There's nothing wrong with that, because in a MMO, in group content, your team has to come before your wishes in terms of build. If group content should make room for the terrible builds and parties of 5 GWFs/ 4 rangers + 1 SW or whatever, then there's no way to make it challenging.
A good challenge will make support mandatory, which means that some people will have to play their characters in a specific way, and do what it takes to progress through the instance. If you don't like that, it's fine, there are T1s, pvp and solo content, but you don't HAVE to demand to be able to play the most difficult dungeons with your useless build just because you feel entitled to. There's currently content for everyone, including people willing to rely heavily on teamwork. If that's not what you like then stick to T1s, the rewards are better anyway.
You got a point there, but in this case it is a slap to the face of many players, who have chosen classes, which don't function as they should.
If game would have been introduced with CW and TR, i would say ok, find the best out of these 2, but game has 8 classes and the players, who have chosen the others too or if one has them as alts, what should he do now? Throw them in the virtual bin? Or is it normal, we are asking the Devs to keep up a standard, especially those of us, who have invested real money into those other toons as well.
And the problem goes even deeper, if you look at the TR now, some paragon trees are completely useless and this goes for CW and other classes too.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
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If the content is truly hard, then you will want to have a tank and a healer and a controller. That means you can't finish it with 5xGWF or 5xSW teams. Tough noogies.
There's room for every class. Currently you need support from: HRs, DCs and GFs (or paladin). That's 4 classes. A CW as a cotnroller is also very useful. Then there's the wildcard and it may be any class. I don't see the issue. Again there are T1s and they're pretty easy too. And as far as I know you didn't "buy" an entrance pass to the hardest content in game. You bought some character power for personal reasons, and that's fine, but it doesn't mean you're entitled to play anything with the party you like, the way you like. Any game has its rules, even the sims have rules, so why would MMOs not have some rules for specific and difficult content?
Obviously not. People who have spent time and effort in getting their favourite (maybe only) character to the level cap, say GF for example, would want dungeons to require a tank.
Similarly for a DC healer, dps, and so on......
That rule should apply equally to players of all classes.
Unfortunately we no longer have that, and Mod 6 has seen the situation significantly worsen.
It is ok to have content that requires significant group co-operation, and the tank/healer/dps has been a pretty standard way of doing this.
The same development time should be directed toward ensuring that all class types should be welcomed into these groups. If there are a couple of tank classes for example, then both should be operating at the same level of performance, or one will be the "must have" and the other will get ignored. Same for healers, same for dps.
Now even with the most balanced system there are bound to be slight differences in character output, and players would accept that. Some classes can bring more control, others don't but have a higher dps output to mitigate this (for example).
What complicates the issue here are the feat paths. (Again as an example) - they not only provide different ways of building a dps character, some of the feat paths can change what the class actually is.
Now the players didn't magically create these feat paths, they are entirely the creation of the development team and their responsibility to ensure their quality. Feat paths are at the core of each character, fundamental to how a class type works.
If the developers create healing or support feat paths for a class, then it is pretty fundamental for those feat paths to be effective - what is the point of having them in if they're not. There may as well be blank spaces as no one would choose them.
Secondly, and this is an area that causes immense frustration, there should be ongoing consistency in these different feat builds. Sure there may be some minor adjustments as things get tweaked a bit, that's generally accepted.
But we do not have that here.
What we have are feat paths which suffer from wide swings in effectiveness as the developers either raise a class build to the top of the food chain, then it is plummeted to the 'not wanted in any group' level.
These wild swings in class role effectiveness ignore the basics of why people selected them in the first place. Some people like playing a tank, others a healer, others melee dps, others ranged dps, others ranged support, others melee support, etc etc.
It is fairly obvious that if you suddenly change the effectiveness of a melee dps from being effective to being poor, then you are going to create significant disillusionment with those players. You also create an environment where other players start to wonder if their class is going to be next in line for the wild downswing. So they could ask themselves, why put all the time and effort into their character if it's going to be made useless in some future change?
Class balancing is, and always has been, notoriously difficult no matter the mmo. Some do it better than others.
Achieving as good a balance as possible across the classes is best done by marginal adjustments as time goes on.
Wild deviations from best to unwanted is the opposite of this. How can you possibly ensure that all classes retain an approximate level of equality in this environment?
Well the simple answer is you cannot. And the more the developers carry out these significant adjustments with the classes. the more frustrated and disillusioned some players will become.
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
Not at all. But again, hard =/= high damage mobs.
Again its not Hard current BECAUSE of any damage. Players are able to do the dungeons because they NEGATE out all the damage with control.
HARD NEEDS to be about half+ of the mobs are control immune FORCING tanks to do their jobs.
I dont care how much you stack DR, or how much you are buffed by a team, a mob HITTING for 1 million damage? CLEARLY its not WAI.
Obviously each team needs their roles, but it goes back to pre module 1 days where tanks were never needed because you just control everything... Thats what alot of the issue is HOWEVER remove the control and then the REAL issue comes out, mob damage.
On my GWF with Pure Negation, Dr stacking 100k HP etc. I Threat Rushed into TWO mobs and with my mark it pulled agro (these are simple mobs, controllable etc) My TEAM was fighting the other 3+ of them and controlling them and I just happened to pull agro on TWO mobs.
They each hit me for 60k and I insta died.
Now why is a GWF class, stacking DR, HP, and fully defensive gear unable to tank 2 mobs at once? Not 5, not a BIG mob, NOT a "red" damage. But plane jane mobs that WHITE HIT me for 60k each and insta killed me.....
CLEARLY its not WAI.
Diablo 3 tired this and it failed because only certain CLASSES could complete the content. Obviously you need a balanced group... But the way the dungeons are designed atm its not hard, its just stupid.
when you get 1 shot regardless what it hits you, the game is just broken.
and this dynamic destroys many classes.
how in the hell am i supposed to stack not working wild medicine if i m oneshotted everytime by a single hit?
whats the point in lifesteal?
what s the point in having a healer or a tank or a pure dps which does less damage than the controller but nevermind?
broken.
I DO think each dungeon should require both a healer and a tank. As well as possibly a controller.
However their solution is to make 95%+ mobs controllable and then just make them hit super hard all that does is favor classes who are super resilient like the TR, as well as classes that can control mobs perma like the CW.
This is why I keep saying dont be fooled. A party that is clearing these things, its not really because they truly TANKED the dungeon, they just relied on their group to CC mobs and burst until dead.
Also, I know Paladins are super OP right now and give crazy party buffs. Since I know little about them and have never run with them I cant say the effect they bring but its POSSIBLE they are OP enough to alleviate this damage.
But then its "bring X class" or you cant do the dungeon.
Remember when MC was "CW/GWF" only that could interrupt the boss? How noone wanted to run it unless you had atleast 2 people that could interrupt.
Its basically the same thing. That "class restriction" DOESNT make it hard, it is just dumb.
I agree a BALANCED party is required but making some classes required and others not... Try and take a Sent GWF + DC into a group and see if the Sent GWF can run in even with AS down and tank mobs.
Should a TANK beable to TANK mobs with DC support? But he cant... That tells you something is wrong. Each class needs to be TESTED how effective their roll is.
A CW can control MORE than enough (maybe their control instead need to be target capped with 3-5?)
A TR can damage and survive MORE than enough.
Can a GF tank a group of 4 mobs even with DC support and NO CC? NOPE.
Can a GWF do it? NOPE.
So your REQUIRING the other roles but lessening the roles of tanks... You can do dungeons without a tank, you cant do them without CC.
by techniques reasons, maybe is best to review certain traditions.
As ZACAZU said below. Defender Description:
"Defenders take a lot of damage, mark targets and protect the rest of the party. If enemies they target try to attack another member of the party the defender will attack to stun, damage or taunt enemies to protect their companions."
BUt it seems like the REAL implementation of the class in THIS game (and as you claim to like it)
"Defenders buff the group. If an enemy tries to attack the defender, his control wizard will stun, damage, or control the enemy to protect the defender"
lets be honest, how disagree with that logic? that is the situation, that is the problem.
ps: exist a big difference between down the cc power and eliminate the tank capacity. because you got one thing called hegemony. cc+range is the single solid defense of this game. after that, debuffs.
a bad analogy: is like increase a tax on a product "x "trying to increase the inflow of a government. Large companies can afford this tax, not small. then they close.
So why not change the game to NeverWizard and delete all classes from the game right? I mean SHOULD an MMO have a most powerful class? This just seems silly to even SAY this...
Ive always thought that the CW should have different paths, one is DPS oriented, one is "debuff" oriented and one is control oriented.
Either way, Id like to see LESS damage come from auto procs and more on skill. The new mobs can still easily be controlled in tandem with another class like TR with smoke bomb + dazes.
I would like to see LESS emphasis placed on control in the future where control still plays an important roll in the group but not the ONLY roll like it is now..
All of the npcs have 90% CC resist in T2s. I'm talking about the regulard add. The real issue is the smoke bomb mechanic, it's permanently applied again when the effect ends on the npcs, if they're still in the smoke area. CWs CC are merely interrupts. You should really play a CW and try T2s some time, they're not the most useful class by a fair margin.
And making those procs work the way imagined is just spamming a button? Not really. It's all about timing, and the last thing any CW needs is someone spamming Frontline Surge and/or sunburst on top of the Icy Terrain. Arguably playing an effective CW is most skill-involving feat throughout the entire game. You either become a pro or end up being a mediocre player of a CW. The learning curve of CW is quite possibly the longest out of them all since you have to combine spells or, rather, rotations in order to do something effective.
Having things discussed from the "skill" perspective with someone who mains the gwf is just laughable. It's like a Fury SW player stating that it takes no skill playing a CW while he keeps spamming TT and does quadrillions of damage.
Sorry, you have to play a CW in order to understand just how crippled the class actually is. The "three paragon trees" doesn't work the way you think, it's far more complicated since there're internal and external things which influence the way CW plays a game. Bashing buttons and making procs do the job isn't really how CW's play.