Now, we need a stupid TR or CW player here telling us about "sadly, you have not guts to keep playing your main class. Hope to see you with them in the battlefield!!!" as some jerks told us on mod4's first patch.
Or some masterpiece like this guy on official feedback:
I'm seeing an awful lot of whining about how unplayable GWF is in Module 6. But when running content with other GWF's they seem perfectly useful and viable to me.
I'm a CW. Last night I teamed up with a GWF, DC, and TR to do some Heroic Encounters in Icewind Dale. All four of us were relatively equally geared. We all had the new Elemental Fire main-hand at legendary, all had perfect or better enchantments, etc. None of us were scrubs and were were all there for the entire fight. Here is the parse from the Elk Tribe Druid HE in Dwarven Valley:
I've held back the names of the other people I was with in case they don't want to be identified. But the GWF did a huge amount of damage--much more than the TR and myself (CW)--he never died, and afterward was very pleased with where the class was at.
Frankly, if you're really, really unhappy with where the GWF class is at in Mod 6 to the point that you think it is unplayable, it's not because the class is bad. The problem is elsewhere.
Edit: I went and located the GWF in this parse to confirm that they were level 70 and not just scaled up to level 70. They are, indeed, level 70.
Hands down, CWs are the most spoiled class in this game.
They whined over and over till unstoppable was nerfed to nothingness cause they were too lazy to just understand the mechanic and point out the real module 2-3 issues. Now all they need to do is pew-pew spam their stuff and roll their face on the keyboard, no matter if GWF is sprinting, unstoppable or standing still. They win.
Now GWF will lack both DPS and survivability and from their sweet spot (thanks gentlemancrush) they say "GWF is fine, learn to play your class".
I think it's good feedback when someone playing another class tells you how to counter his class if you can't do it.
I find it quite arrogant when someone says "i play CW, i think GWF is fine from what i've seen, may be you don't know how to play your class".
Implying that he is the best at playing HIS class so he can be taken as a reference point to balance other classes and also that he is so good he can tell you if you know how to play your class.
I respected TRs and still respect old TR players. But right now the class is the most broken OP thing neverwinter ever saw since release and spoiled FOTM brats flooded the class. So it's quite easy now to meet many trash-talking TRs and kids.
Plus they were quite spoiled with the whole stealth mechanic, always saying you "just" needed to perfectly time your encounters in a 0.2s window or "learn to predict where an invisible enemy is" as a way to balance classes.
But the real problem are the devs. The fact Panderus dismissed ayroux feedback with a "from our test GWF is in line with other classes" is the proof that they know nothing about their game and how to balance classes.
I'd LOVE to see Panderus grab our mod6 "balanced" GWF class and go PvP vs TRs and CWs. I'd love to see the guy i quoted doing the same.
From the point of view of pretty much every single player who sticked to GWF class through bad (pre-mod1), good (mod1), OP (module 2 and 3) and bad (module4-5) periods, module 6 is going to be very bad for the class.
Now it's 3 full modules that the class is going from bad to worse. BiS 20k+ intimidation builds didn't make the class good in module 4-5 except for the few BiS 20k+ monsters.
Devs never really understood the class, guess they didn't even care about GWFs. That's why their changes always failed greatly at balancing GWFs, going from too weak to too strong, to too weak again.
Feedback on the class was given over and over. They have all the info they need.
I am the GWF only player. Not because of GWF fetishism, but because this game is so alt unfriendly. In my over 20yrs gaming "career" i have never seen so unfriendly alt character system. You have to spend months and months doing campaigns with every another character (character! not class!) and then you need dozens of millions ADs for your artifact equipment for this every character, not class. Not talking about companions, mounts, achievments. Even if you are rich enough or dumb or both and decide to spend real money to speed up this process, you will find the price for this pretty insane. Insane price to speed up the process just for ONE another character.
But back to GWF.
I have chosen GWF because i like fighter class (at this moment i have decent Barbarian in Diablo 3). I do not want overwhelming character. I understand if i will choose the damage path, my defense will go down, if i will choose more defense, my damage will go down. But at this moment - well last months - the GWF doesnt have enough dmg and doesnt have enough defense compared to game environment, mechanics and other classes. People in this topic wrote pretty much about it.
GWF - GREAT WEAPON fighter - the class with the highest weapon damage protected by chain armor is just Don Quijote de la Mancha compared to other classes.
Now let´s have a look at impact of this to your players and possible customers.
Last three months i am not playing this game anymore. I spent more than a year to improve my GWF, to gear him up and learn much about my class. And after all of these, i cant PvP with my class. Unplayable, period. Ok, let´s move to PvE part of the game. Why the hell is Scourge Warlock doing 3x more damage than me? Oh look, dozens of mobs around us, aoe damage them. - Control Wizard is the winner. Oh look, big bad boss is comming, single damage him. - Trickster Rogue is the winner. MMMkey, i will defend you my party. - Revive me please!
Why should i play class which is not good in anything.? Choose different class? Hello alt unfriendly game.
I will wait until next Preview patch notes. And i will also check and try M6 on live for two or three weeks to get objective look at the new state of game under Module 6.
PS: I was also thinking about choosing Paladin as my second (and the last) main character (and counting with months and months of improving him), but with your piercing damage mechanic and your way of "balancing classes) it will be another sitting duck in PvP and in PvE i still prefer fighters over defenders (RIP Retribution dmg dealer Paladin )
Actually we got massively nerfed. Just a few off the top of my head:
1) Unstoppable nerfed to 15-30% DR
2) Takedown damage reduced over 30% + no longer prones
3) Front Line no longer prones and damage reduced.
4) Roar no longer does anything
5) Determination now based only off % HP loss - NOT "total" damage taken (basically meaning it was PRE-DR damage now its POST-DR damage which is a massive nerf).
6) From mod 5-> Mod 6 Intimidation is a JOKE now.
But yes you are right, ONTOP of all these nerfs they THEN went and buffed the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of everyone else.... CWs got their shield on tab which makes them tankier than GWFs by FAR.
TRs always were VERY VERY hard to kill but now they gave them insane damage to go with it...
DCs became even more unkillable - in the past it wasnt so...
Even GFs have been buffed to the point that a good GF will never lose to a GWF.
Its just really sad, REALLY sad - especially since the GWF has been in this spot since module 4 the ONLY reason it isnt more apparent is because we "lucked out" with them not realizing how BIS GWFs could scale intimidation - allowing atleast ONE super cheesy but semi-viable spec.
Thats gone module 6 now and even if it wasnt... It wouldnt have been good anyways due to Terror reducing your power by 40% AND! it also still doesnt fix the issue we face TODAY - Sentinel GWF is SQUISHIER than nearly ANY other class with the exception of a SW.
TR/HR/CW/DC/GF are ALL tankier in PVP than the GWF.
EDIT: I also forgot, they nerfed Threat Rush and gave it both charges AND a "animation delay" at the end so we cant even attack right away...
I was talking about Mod 6 'nerfs' of course. I'm aware GWF's got super nerfed over the course of mods sadly. But you're absolutely right. I also support all of your ideas in the official thread by the way. Great work. If only they will freaking read it.
you know what really <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> me off? there is 43 **** pages of feedback and ideas how to fix our class(and btw my thx to guys who did all that testing,you really did awesome work),but noone listens.for last 3 mods we give them realistic ideas on how to make us playable,but all they do is give us some stuff that we dont need or stuff that doesnt work for us.in mod 4 and 5 I felt like my 21k gwf could keep up with 16-17k cw/tr/hr's,but in mod 6 I dont think I'll be nowhere near them.
I feel the same way about my Warlock. Much like the GWF , we face many of the same problems and instead of buffing the class like it rightfully hsould to be on par with the others we got a nerf to fury capstone, tyranical threat along with the already existing problems since mod 4.
I just don't get it, it feels like they're completely out of touch with their community on this topic, yet they act well and normal on every other aspect (everything they changed in pretty much every partch) except they're not listening to the feedback for SW and GWF.
It leads me to think this is intentional, and working as they intended...
I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
I always thought they just lacked man power and were concentrating on other classes so they didn't put real efforts in balancing GWFs.
Now with Panderus saying "from our tests it's in line with other classes" all i can think about is they only tested a specific build in PvE or are unable to pull out the other classes' full potential.
I always thought they just lacked man power and were concentrating on other classes so they didn't put real efforts in balancing GWFs.
Now with Panderus saying "from our tests it's in line with other classes" all i can think about is they only tested a specific build in PvE or are unable to pull out the other classes' full potential.
It's a matter of priorities and perspective. It's completely possible that the class is in a good shape in areas they value, but not in specific niches, like endgame (PVP).
problem is devs cant even play their own game you can see that from their streams spaming any random skill/power they have chance too, so i REALLY WOULD LOVE TO SEE HOW THEY DID GWF TESTS TO TELL US HES IN LINE WITH OTHER CLASSES.
just because they code a game, doesnt mean the play it.
i would do anything but playing the game for which i work when i go home
in fact, all the m6 changes, without the slightest alteration (ignoring the 2 lasts nerfs) were made from proposed changes in feedback (m5 feedback).
dont lose damage unstoppable, dont lose aoe damage, better range / radius (2 new encounters ... one nerfed now) a functional boost of damage to destroyers (change mark / cgi by hidden daggers) one feet in destroyers that increases the aoe (not worked, and now suffered a nerf).
what these people do not understand is that these were feedback are made BEFORE the general changes.
what any gwf player knows, and the devs ignore, is that the class is most affected by external changes.
the gwf is prepared ... for the module 4/5. next module, after loose the other half of the general playerbase, this guys will do everthing what you guys asked now. but the problems for the m7, thanks to a change "x" will be "y".
the obvius conclusion is: yes, the own valid feedback for us is that come to advocate. ironic, no?... poor scapegoat.
just because they code a game, doesnt mean the play it.
i would do anything but playing the game for which i work when i go home
if I have a pizzeria; this does not prevent me from knowing the taste of all the flavors of my product ... especially if I gave orders about how my kitchen should work.
But when there is one freakin' move (shocking execution) killing GWFs with unavoidable precision like a "press this button to kill the GWF" mechanic, and going on for 2 full modules, i wonder what they are doing. You don't need to play the game to see how ******ed it is.
Also, the following "reasoning":
we take away prone from GWF cause it's UNFAIR that they can IBS ignoring deflection and DR.
Then we introduce piercing damage ignoring DR completely, which is the main and only source of survivability for GWFs.
we nerf the hell out of unstoppable and determination gain, erasing the class mechanic entirely, cause we want GWFs to be more "proactive".
Then we give other classes absurd DPS which lands from auto-procs or auto-aiming attacks.
I think with just common sense, without playing the game, anyone would understand these are bad design choices. Not to mention they nerfed GWFs to the ground then buffed the other classes with tools and DPS that are even more powerful than anything module 2 or module 3 GWFs ever got.
It's a matter of priorities and perspective. It's completely possible that the class is in a good shape in areas they value, but not in specific niches, like endgame (PVP).
ok,in what part of the game gwf shines?we are nowhere near good shape
in fact, all the m6 changes, without the slightest alteration (ignoring the 2 lasts nerfs) were made from proposed changes in feedback (m5 feedback).
dont lose damage unstoppable, dont lose aoe damage, better range / radius (2 new encounters ... one nerfed now) a functional boost of damage to destroyers (change mark / cgi by hidden daggers) one feet in destroyers that increases the aoe (not worked, and now suffered a nerf).
what these people do not understand is that these were feedback are made BEFORE the general changes.
what any gwf player knows, and the devs ignore, is that the class is most affected by external changes.
the gwf is prepared ... for the module 4/5. next module, after loose the other half of the general playerbase, this guys will do everthing what you guys asked now. but the problems for the m7, thanks to a change "x" will be "y".
the obvius conclusion is: yes, the own valid feedback for us is that come to advocate. ironic, no?... poor scapegoat.
if I have a pizzeria; this does not prevent me from knowing the taste of all the flavors of my product ... especially if I gave orders about how my kitchen should work.
Yeah this is part of the problem... And WHO they actually take feedback from.
I remember module 3, there were ALOT of players - including me, that PLAY the class who posted balance suggestions saying this class is too strong and here is why - primarily a function of Roar. Which in reality all they really needed to do is remove the 2 sec daze that bypass all DR in favor of even a 1 second stun and it would have helped balance ALOT.
But instead, someone comes online as days "OMG Takedown crit me for 12k+ NERF!!!" Then the next thing you see
"Patch: GWF: Takedown no longer prones and damage reduced 30%"
Us GWFs are like... Ummm.... Thats not the issue...
More feedback "GWFs are so hard to kill, they chain CC us with takedown, roar, and when we do attack they are unstoppable mitigating all our damage"
Also in that patch: "Unstoppable now grants 5-10% DR, Roar no longer dazes just interrupts"
Us GWFs.... Ummm. WTF? Over nerf?
Thats the problem, they look at the END result then try and address the BASE power/damage rather than looking at WHY it got to that end result...
Where as the GWFs were ALL saying:
- the reason we are so tanky, when we roar its a 2 second daze that bypasses all immunity, which ALSO builds determination allowing us to pop unstoppable without having to take much damage!... If you fix Roar it would fix alot of the problems....
But instead they listen to all the "nerf GWF" posts who have NO idea why they cant kill a GWF and blame the wrong areas.
NOW its been nerfed into the ground while other classes buffed up a TON, NOW we are saying do "X,Y,Z" which probably wont come until module 7 but who knows what will be the issue then.
At the end of the day the biggest issue here is the players have NO avenue to get REAL information REAL feedback to the DEVs for balance purposes.
Comments
Or some masterpiece like this guy on official feedback:
Hands down, CWs are the most spoiled class in this game.
They whined over and over till unstoppable was nerfed to nothingness cause they were too lazy to just understand the mechanic and point out the real module 2-3 issues. Now all they need to do is pew-pew spam their stuff and roll their face on the keyboard, no matter if GWF is sprinting, unstoppable or standing still. They win.
Now GWF will lack both DPS and survivability and from their sweet spot (thanks gentlemancrush) they say "GWF is fine, learn to play your class".
I think it's good feedback when someone playing another class tells you how to counter his class if you can't do it.
I find it quite arrogant when someone says "i play CW, i think GWF is fine from what i've seen, may be you don't know how to play your class".
Implying that he is the best at playing HIS class so he can be taken as a reference point to balance other classes and also that he is so good he can tell you if you know how to play your class.
I respected TRs and still respect old TR players. But right now the class is the most broken OP thing neverwinter ever saw since release and spoiled FOTM brats flooded the class. So it's quite easy now to meet many trash-talking TRs and kids.
Plus they were quite spoiled with the whole stealth mechanic, always saying you "just" needed to perfectly time your encounters in a 0.2s window or "learn to predict where an invisible enemy is" as a way to balance classes.
But the real problem are the devs. The fact Panderus dismissed ayroux feedback with a "from our test GWF is in line with other classes" is the proof that they know nothing about their game and how to balance classes.
I'd LOVE to see Panderus grab our mod6 "balanced" GWF class and go PvP vs TRs and CWs. I'd love to see the guy i quoted doing the same.
From the point of view of pretty much every single player who sticked to GWF class through bad (pre-mod1), good (mod1), OP (module 2 and 3) and bad (module4-5) periods, module 6 is going to be very bad for the class.
Now it's 3 full modules that the class is going from bad to worse. BiS 20k+ intimidation builds didn't make the class good in module 4-5 except for the few BiS 20k+ monsters.
Devs never really understood the class, guess they didn't even care about GWFs. That's why their changes always failed greatly at balancing GWFs, going from too weak to too strong, to too weak again.
Feedback on the class was given over and over. They have all the info they need.
But back to GWF.
I have chosen GWF because i like fighter class (at this moment i have decent Barbarian in Diablo 3). I do not want overwhelming character. I understand if i will choose the damage path, my defense will go down, if i will choose more defense, my damage will go down. But at this moment - well last months - the GWF doesnt have enough dmg and doesnt have enough defense compared to game environment, mechanics and other classes. People in this topic wrote pretty much about it.
GWF - GREAT WEAPON fighter - the class with the highest weapon damage protected by chain armor is just Don Quijote de la Mancha compared to other classes.
Now let´s have a look at impact of this to your players and possible customers.
Last three months i am not playing this game anymore. I spent more than a year to improve my GWF, to gear him up and learn much about my class. And after all of these, i cant PvP with my class. Unplayable, period. Ok, let´s move to PvE part of the game. Why the hell is Scourge Warlock doing 3x more damage than me? Oh look, dozens of mobs around us, aoe damage them. - Control Wizard is the winner. Oh look, big bad boss is comming, single damage him. - Trickster Rogue is the winner. MMMkey, i will defend you my party. - Revive me please!
Why should i play class which is not good in anything.? Choose different class? Hello alt unfriendly game.
I will wait until next Preview patch notes. And i will also check and try M6 on live for two or three weeks to get objective look at the new state of game under Module 6.
PS: I was also thinking about choosing Paladin as my second (and the last) main character (and counting with months and months of improving him), but with your piercing damage mechanic and your way of "balancing classes) it will be another sitting duck in PvP and in PvE i still prefer fighters over defenders (RIP Retribution dmg dealer Paladin
I was talking about Mod 6 'nerfs' of course. I'm aware GWF's got super nerfed over the course of mods sadly. But you're absolutely right. I also support all of your ideas in the official thread by the way. Great work. If only they will freaking read it.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
I just don't get it, it feels like they're completely out of touch with their community on this topic, yet they act well and normal on every other aspect (everything they changed in pretty much every partch) except they're not listening to the feedback for SW and GWF.
It leads me to think this is intentional, and working as they intended...
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
Now with Panderus saying "from our tests it's in line with other classes" all i can think about is they only tested a specific build in PvE or are unable to pull out the other classes' full potential.
It's a matter of priorities and perspective. It's completely possible that the class is in a good shape in areas they value, but not in specific niches, like endgame (PVP).
just because they code a game, doesnt mean the play it.
i would do anything but playing the game for which i work when i go home
dont lose damage unstoppable, dont lose aoe damage, better range / radius (2 new encounters ... one nerfed now) a functional boost of damage to destroyers (change mark / cgi by hidden daggers) one feet in destroyers that increases the aoe (not worked, and now suffered a nerf).
what these people do not understand is that these were feedback are made BEFORE the general changes.
what any gwf player knows, and the devs ignore, is that the class is most affected by external changes.
the gwf is prepared ... for the module 4/5. next module, after loose the other half of the general playerbase, this guys will do everthing what you guys asked now. but the problems for the m7, thanks to a change "x" will be "y".
the obvius conclusion is: yes, the own valid feedback for us is that come to advocate. ironic, no?... poor scapegoat.
if I have a pizzeria; this does not prevent me from knowing the taste of all the flavors of my product ... especially if I gave orders about how my kitchen should work.
But when there is one freakin' move (shocking execution) killing GWFs with unavoidable precision like a "press this button to kill the GWF" mechanic, and going on for 2 full modules, i wonder what they are doing. You don't need to play the game to see how ******ed it is.
Also, the following "reasoning":
we take away prone from GWF cause it's UNFAIR that they can IBS ignoring deflection and DR.
Then we introduce piercing damage ignoring DR completely, which is the main and only source of survivability for GWFs.
we nerf the hell out of unstoppable and determination gain, erasing the class mechanic entirely, cause we want GWFs to be more "proactive".
Then we give other classes absurd DPS which lands from auto-procs or auto-aiming attacks.
I think with just common sense, without playing the game, anyone would understand these are bad design choices. Not to mention they nerfed GWFs to the ground then buffed the other classes with tools and DPS that are even more powerful than anything module 2 or module 3 GWFs ever got.
ok,in what part of the game gwf shines?we are nowhere near good shape
mine is quite good on pumping AD with leadership
For instance, no class dies as elegant as GWF :rolleyes:
Yeah this is part of the problem... And WHO they actually take feedback from.
I remember module 3, there were ALOT of players - including me, that PLAY the class who posted balance suggestions saying this class is too strong and here is why - primarily a function of Roar. Which in reality all they really needed to do is remove the 2 sec daze that bypass all DR in favor of even a 1 second stun and it would have helped balance ALOT.
But instead, someone comes online as days "OMG Takedown crit me for 12k+ NERF!!!" Then the next thing you see
"Patch: GWF: Takedown no longer prones and damage reduced 30%"
Us GWFs are like... Ummm.... Thats not the issue...
More feedback "GWFs are so hard to kill, they chain CC us with takedown, roar, and when we do attack they are unstoppable mitigating all our damage"
Also in that patch: "Unstoppable now grants 5-10% DR, Roar no longer dazes just interrupts"
Us GWFs.... Ummm. WTF? Over nerf?
Thats the problem, they look at the END result then try and address the BASE power/damage rather than looking at WHY it got to that end result...
Where as the GWFs were ALL saying:
- the reason we are so tanky, when we roar its a 2 second daze that bypasses all immunity, which ALSO builds determination allowing us to pop unstoppable without having to take much damage!... If you fix Roar it would fix alot of the problems....
But instead they listen to all the "nerf GWF" posts who have NO idea why they cant kill a GWF and blame the wrong areas.
NOW its been nerfed into the ground while other classes buffed up a TON, NOW we are saying do "X,Y,Z" which probably wont come until module 7 but who knows what will be the issue then.
At the end of the day the biggest issue here is the players have NO avenue to get REAL information REAL feedback to the DEVs for balance purposes.
only thing a gwf is good at
Until mod 6 with the invocation revamp hahaha
the elemental set is bugged, if you use restoring strike, the debuff will affect you
great, no hope at all