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Dungeons and Dragons IS PVP
overdriver13
Member Posts: 1,521 Arc User
I write this as a point of fact and also in response to the many neverwinter players who rail against pvp in neverwinter because "there is no pvp in dnd".
D&D IS pvp, both in form and in function. Always was. The Dungeon Master is a player of the game regardless of his title. He IS NOT an environment. He is a PLAYER who's purpose is to play the role of antagonist in conflict against other players whos purpose is to play the roles of the protagonists.
Dungeons and Dragons its self evolved from a straight on PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER wargame known as Chainmail. D&D was essentially an expansion of Chainmail.
Ultimately, Dungeons and Dragons is simply sophisticated tabletop PVP.
You cannot remove pvp from DnD and still have it be DnD. Because sophisticated pvp (via the dm which neverwinter lacks) is the core defining element of Dungeons and Dragons.
So those who say they enjoy Neverwinter because "it is dnd" and not for the pvp, need to really think about what the game is they are playing.
Really Neverwinter should not be advertised as being based in dnd, it should be advertised as being based on forgetten realms. Because the pvp in NW is not sophisticated. It is not creative and requires very little creativity from the players. And the less pvp in neverwinter, the less like dungeons and dragons neverwinter becomes.
D&D IS pvp, both in form and in function. Always was. The Dungeon Master is a player of the game regardless of his title. He IS NOT an environment. He is a PLAYER who's purpose is to play the role of antagonist in conflict against other players whos purpose is to play the roles of the protagonists.
Dungeons and Dragons its self evolved from a straight on PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER wargame known as Chainmail. D&D was essentially an expansion of Chainmail.
Ultimately, Dungeons and Dragons is simply sophisticated tabletop PVP.
You cannot remove pvp from DnD and still have it be DnD. Because sophisticated pvp (via the dm which neverwinter lacks) is the core defining element of Dungeons and Dragons.
So those who say they enjoy Neverwinter because "it is dnd" and not for the pvp, need to really think about what the game is they are playing.
Really Neverwinter should not be advertised as being based in dnd, it should be advertised as being based on forgetten realms. Because the pvp in NW is not sophisticated. It is not creative and requires very little creativity from the players. And the less pvp in neverwinter, the less like dungeons and dragons neverwinter becomes.
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D&D is not Chainmail. Dungeons & Dragons has always been based on Cooperative Play. This topic was all the rage when they said that there would be no PvP in DDO and even to this day, all there is, is dueling. Which is the way it is in D&D PnP. They even flat out stated that there would be no real PvP in DDO because it is based on the Rules of Dungeons & Dragons, which is Cooperative Play.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
With all respect, read the op again. The DUNGEON MASTER is a player of the game. He plays the roles of characters AGAINST other players, in both combat and through longer story driven campaigns. And they play against him. Aka player versus player.
DnD IS pvp because the PLAYER of the game (known as the Dungeon Master) plays (via monsters, npcs and the general antagonist role) against other players known simply as players, who take on the role of player-characters.
This is still an MMORPG at the end of the day. There will be PVP
Here's a most recent excerpt on "what D&D is" from 5th edition:
In Neverwinter, the Game itself is the Dungeons Master. Ask yourself this, how does your character ever see the DM in game? The answer, as an NPC. Just like the NPCs we have in game. NPC = Non-Player Character. The DM is not a "Player Character." He is the Dungeon Master.
Regardless, we have PvP in game. Why? Because this is an Action Combat MMORPG. That doesn't mean D&D PnP is a PvP Game. It only becomes such when the DM makes it such, thus becoming homebrew.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
That is a disappointingly poorly thought-out and smarmy response to a well informed set of statements. You did not respond to any specific points but instead blurted out your opinion on the matter without at all thinking about the points you are attempting to respond to. Please compose a logical argument and try again.
The DM's job is to use the game system (even alter it) to provide an antagonistic environment for the player-characters to strive through. Dungeons and Dragons is not an absolute "win lose" game, and of course player-characters do not, as a rule permanently die as a part of regular play. Neither do Neverwinter player-characters ever die (they constantly are revived or simply respawn). Neverwinter (pvp or pve) is also not an absolute win-lose game, as in dnd, player characters sometimes win and sometimes lose in the short run but in the long run, they ideally progress through their careers and the player enjoys a series of accomplishments, ups and downs, and movement through an interactive story.
Except I find your points to not be well informed statement, I did not find them well thought out, and instead find them to be ill-informed or the childish rage of a pvp'er out to score forum points.
The game its self is not the dungeon master. The whole point of DnD is that the Dungeon Master is another human playing the game. Take away a human DM and what you have is not DnD. ANY mmo could say that it is dnd by the logic you are using. All the mmo has to do is say it is dnd.
So what makes Dungeons and Dragons, Dungeons and Dragons? A label? Nope. What makes DnD, DnD, is the unique role of the player called the Dungeon Master whos function is to serve as an antagonist for the other players who are called player characters. What makes DnD special is that it is elaborate and sophisticated pvp. That is what made it stand out from the other pvp games of the time (aka wargames).
Dont be too hard on yourself re this post, we have all been there wishing there was a delete function after posting and having sometime time to ...reflect
After all, what is the DM if he is not the developer of his own campaign setting that he is running? In MMOs, the DMs are the Developers. What you see in game is the same as you'd see a DM describing their campaign.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Your findings have all the substance you have posted of them here: zero. They are absolutely lacking in substance or you would have made an argument instead of spewing characterizations. Maturity means articulating complex ideas in reaction to the ideas set forth by others. Childishness means simply reacting to the ideas of others with ones own baseless characterizations. As you are doing.
Please cease making characterizations and instead articulate points counter to my own, since apparently you disagree.
A player is a real-time living person acting and reacting to what the other players do. Scripting characters and not playing them is not being a player.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
If you are going to troll, at least be clever about it.
That makes absolutely no difference. D&D is a turn based game played in real time. Humans are not turn based. They play turn based characters. That is my point.
You can't make arguments against it. What you stated in the op is the equivalent of saying 1+1=3 or that the sky on the planet earth is red. It's just wrong. When statements are fundamentally false that's all you can say is that they are false and explain what they need to do to learn. I did, you need to play pnp with a good dm to learn the difference.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Nothing is "just wrong". There is the feeling that something is just wrong but feelings are entirely arbitrary and subjective. There is always an explanation for why a thing is incorrect, if it is incorrect. There are reasons why 1+1 do not equal 3 or why the sky is not red.
DM is a storyteller and/or referree.
D&D is focused on cooperative play, as Zebular stated.
A D&D session where the players (not the DM) attack each other is often a group that disbands shortly thereafter.
A DM is NOT a "Player." Period.
There is, however, no reason a D&D influenced MMO cannot have PvP as players are often the most unpredictable and worthy opponents as we don't have sufficiently advanced artificial intelligence yet.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
Actually, it was a pretty much dead-on answer.
A GOOD DM's job is not to be the antagonist. Virtually every tabletop RPG mentions this. Countless articles in such magazines as Dragon and White Dwarf have gone over this. A good DM's job is to provide the scenario, adjudicate decisions, and roleplay the NON-PLAYER characters. Note that phrase. NON-PLAYER. The DM is by definition not a player, as defined in the terminology of a tabletop role-playing game such as Dungeons and Dragons.
In most D&D games, many of the NPCs that will be encountered are monsters. Often those monsters are antagonistic toward the players. But if the DM is at all competent and worthy of the trust and responsibility inherent in the position, then only the NPCs are potentially antagonistic, and not the DM. The DM does not "win" if he "beats" the players. If that's his goal, then he's missing the point of the role-playing game entirely.
Seriously, you are incredibly off-base on what a DM should be in a tabletop D&D role-playing game. The one thing you almost got right is that the DM does, in fact, provide the ENVIRONMENT that the players interact with. You know, that word that the E in PvE stands for. PvP in a tabletop RPG is when a player character fights another player character. Such things often lead to the destruction of the game, the end of the story, and sometimes even the dissolution of the gaming group.
Go to some conventions, and play with some people not in your normal group. DunDraCon happens in two weeks, and is a fairly large one. There will be plenty of D&D 5th there. Play with some good DMs, then re-examine your statements.
If the DM was purely antagonistic, the game would be very short indeed:
DM: There is a perfectly smooth metal door before you. How do you proceed?
PCs: We open the door cautiously...
DM: The door melts and a raging ball of fire erupts from beyond. You take 500 fire damage, everyone give me a save versus Dragon Breath for half.
PCs: But we're still at negative 200 hit points, even if we save...
DM: You ALL die... I win!
Thus the reason the DM is not a player...
For reference i mean this voice actor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QK1eK6Z43I
(isn't it also sergeant Knox' voice?) Such a busy DM...
The main problem comes when one class becomes evidently superior to any other classes in term of dps, survivability and utility. The first sign of such problem usually surface whenever one class is capable of soloing contents which requires a party. Or one class is capable of performing roles of 2 or more classes combined. That's when some classes are preferred over other in raid. So how should one go about balancing the classes? That's where PvP comes into the picture.
OP class has no place to hide in PvP and stands out like a Christmas tree. OP class usually takes awhile before their impact are felt in the PvE community. But their effects are immediately felt in PvP. Pretending classes are only OP in PvP and doesn't affect PvE gameplay is naive.
DnD authors also did not have microtransactions in mind but there you go. Welcome to MMORPGs.
I was showcasing that PVP in neverwinter has nothing in common with DnD.
It is relevant to the topic because the whole thread. hinges upon OP trying to prove that PVP should be part of Neverwinter MMO by bringing up DnD.
You might be on the wrong thread or better yet start or own for my response to be irrelevant.