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Gorgon is well bellow the standard I'd expect

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  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,467 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    charononus wrote: »
    Even just plain leather has some protective properties. It's why it's been biker gear for years. It can save you some road rash, pulling gravel from your skin sucks.

    True. I would put that as AC 8, though, in 1E/2E terms. Anyway, from Ed Greenwood's The Ecology of the Gorgon:
    The skin of a gorgon is covered with close-fitting, irregularly shaped metal scales. The scales are actually composed of impure iron; in order to maintain their strength and durability, a gorgon must derive substantial amounts of iron from its diet, chiefly from green plants and the blood of mammals. The gorgon cannot consume actual metal, in either raw or relined form (such as a suit of armor), and accumulates such metal as part of its “treasure,” as described above.

    The scales are coated with a waxy secretion that is constantly drying out and being worn away, and at the same time is continually replenished by the beast’s internal processes (exuding from the cartilaginous seams between the scales). This coating keeps a gorgon’s scales from rusting due to rain or dampness, and — coupled with the irregular shapes and curves of the scales —makes a gorgon difficult to grapple, and causes many blows to glance off its hide. The plates are rather soft (being easily marked by weapon-blows, even if those blows do not actually harm the creature), but are both thick and durable; they will not crack under crushing blows. The scales are useful as a source of iron for smelting (although other, better sources are usually available), but cannot be used directly for protection — for example, as bucklers —because they are too small and too soft. A gorgon plate of average size might bring a price of 10 copper pieces, or perhaps more if it is sold in an area where metal is scarce and in great demand.

    Since it says they can't directly be used for protection, perhaps zeb is right -- they would require processing first. Aside from looks, I'm not sure what it would get you. If I was a DM, a player's gorgon shield would provide an AC penalty against electrical attacks.
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  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    hustin1 wrote: »
    True. I would put that as AC 8, though, in 1E/2E terms. Anyway, from Ed Greenwood's The Ecology of the Gorgon:



    Since it says they can't directly be used for protection, perhaps zeb is right -- they would require processing first.
    Honestly while Ed greenwood has done a lot for dnd and I dislike saying bad things about him and others like gygax. He couldn't have gotten it more wrong. It wouldn't make good conventional armor, but lightweight flexible iron would be something to kill for. The goal of it being to disperse the force into the weapon and then entrap it. You wouldn't make a suit of armor out of it, but many other things could be made from it. Even edging it around a shield to trap an opponents blade could be useful.
  • zebularzebular Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 15,270 Community Moderator
    edited January 2015
    charononus wrote: »
    Even just plain leather has some protective properties. It's why it's been biker gear for years. It can save you some road rash, pulling gravel from your skin sucks.
    The leather is still worked in some way though to give it that quality, else it would either rot and fall apart or it would give the minimal protection if gave the animal it came from. Simply skinning an animal and wearing its fresh hide won't provide much protection, save for environmental at a minimal level. That was my point.
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,467 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    charononus wrote: »
    Honestly while Ed greenwood has done a lot for dnd and I dislike saying bad things about him and others like gygax. He couldn't have gotten it more wrong. It wouldn't make good conventional armor, but lightweight flexible iron would be something to kill for. The goal of it being to disperse the force into the weapon and then entrap it. You wouldn't make a suit of armor out of it, but many other things could be made from it. Even edging it around a shield to trap an opponents blade could be useful.

    If it had low density (or, even better, was porous) and elastic it would be great for absorbing blunt impacts. You might have to cover it with a tough hide or something that would resist cutting, but otherwise could be a great "crumple zone" for a shield. Such a material would be bulky, though. As far as I know, though, the description only says it's thick and soft, not necessarily compressible.
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  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    hustin1 wrote: »
    If it had low density (or, even better, was porous) and elastic it would be great for absorbing blunt impacts. You might have to cover it with a tough hide or something that would resist cutting, but otherwise could be a great "crumple zone" for a shield. Such a material would be bulky, though. As far as I know, though, the description only says it's thick and soft, not necessarily compressible.

    Lol at myself. This is why I love dnd and dnd nerds. Talking about the theoretical metallurgy of a fictional animal. :cool:
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited January 2015
    Just because it is fictional doesn't mean it shouldn't be realistic.

    That's why I hate when non-D&D nerds occasionally find themselves on these forums. I.E. "I want to have Buster Swords in this game!" Totally not in the spirit of D&D.

    Things in D&D, particularly in FR, still make completely logical sense. If something does something there's normally a logical explanation besides "it's magic" for the most part.

    And even magic bends the laws of physics more than they break it. Magic can make a weapon somewhat lighter but it can never make it weightless or violate the law of levers which is the law which alters the forces of materials based on the distance from the center of gravity. Non-D&D players are too quick to jump to "it's magic" conclusions to make every person superman in D&D.

    Small town villages live the same lives as you would imagine small villages from our reality 200 years ago. Some live their entire lives never seeing magic or cleric healing powers. Thinking magic somehow makes everything in the world disobey the laws of physics is the wrong stance.

    The more apt stance is let's make the story work without magic and then buff it up if we have to. :p
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Just because it is fictional doesn't mean it shouldn't be realistic.

    That's why I hate when non-D&D nerds occasionally find themselves on these forums. I.E. "I want to have Buster Swords in this game!" Totally not in the spirit of D&D.

    Things in D&D, particularly in FR, still make completely logical sense. If something does something there's normally a logical explanation besides "it's magic" for the most part.

    And even magic bends the laws of physics more than they break it. Magic can make a weapon somewhat lighter but it can never make it weightless or violate the law of levers which is the law which alters the forces of materials based on the distance from the center of gravity. Non-D&D players are too quick to jump to "it's magic" conclusions to make every person superman in D&D.

    Small town villages live the same lives as you would imagine small villages from our reality 200 years ago. Some live their entire lives never seeing magic or cleric healing powers. Thinking magic somehow makes everything in the world disobey the laws of physics is the wrong stance.

    The more apt stance is let's make the story work without magic and then buff it up if we have to. :p

    This is why the best fantasy stories have fully flushed out ars arcanum for the world. Doesn't matter if it's DnD or not.
  • katbozejziemikatbozejziemi Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 856 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    That's why I hate when non-D&D nerds occasionally find themselves on these forums. I.E. "I want to have Buster Swords in this game!" Totally not in the spirit of D&D.
    Now if only the designers over at Cryptic also realized this we wouldn't have ended up with this abomination
    orfynkV.png

    Magic can make a weapon somewhat lighter but it can never make it weightless
    And even if it did, a weightless weapon would be completely useless as it would exert 0 force on hit.
  • eldartheldarth Member Posts: 4,494 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    And even if it did, a weightless weapon would be completely useless as it would exert 0 force on hit.

    No, just 'cause it's "weightless" doesn't mean it has no mass.

    f=ma : Force = mass x acceleration.

    edit: ..and that sword image is horrid. That really looks like a bug - like someone accidentally doubled it's scale. bleh.
  • f2pmaf2pma Member Posts: 665 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    i find gorgon which is epic mount (not legendary) very cool looking
    but
    not for 5 mill ad
    not even 2,5 mill ad
    as it is now

    but for 800k ad at which price i will buy it eventualy.
  • katbozejziemikatbozejziemi Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 856 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    eldarth wrote: »
    No, just 'cause it's "weightless" doesn't mean it has no mass.
    The only way it could be "weightless" is if it had 0 mass. If it was just not affected by gravity that would serve no purpose aside from making it easier to carry around (except you would still feel its weight every time you apply acceleration to it).
  • avengingangel93avengingangel93 Member Posts: 192 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I think people complain far too much. Think this mount looks awesome, just not my personal choice! Great job on the design, devs!
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I think people complain far too much. Think this mount looks awesome, just not my personal choice! Great job on the design, devs!

    yes you are right.
    the mount looks cool at least with max details.
  • zandurrrzandurrr Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Better than no new mounts at all right? :)
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  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,467 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    eldarth wrote: »
    No, just 'cause it's "weightless" doesn't mean it has no mass.

    f=ma : Force = mass x acceleration.

    edit: ..and that sword image is horrid. That really looks like a bug - like someone accidentally doubled it's scale. bleh.

    If it's in deep space, that's true. However, on the surface of Faerun, if it's weightless, then it must have no mass, presuming that the force of the planet's gravity is nonzero (which means that a is nonzero). It would, also, inflict zero damage since it would have zero momentum (p = mv: momentum = mass x velocity).

    (I know, that in reality -- and in the absence of magic -- it would have an extremely tiny momentum since whatever massless particles that comprise it must have momentum as long as they are in motion since only their *rest* mass would be zero. But then again, massless particles in real life always move at the speed of light, which isn't the case here, so the momentum calculation for light might not apply here.)

    Ugh. Maybe I should get back OT pronto.

    Here's a dumb question: how is anyone supposed to sit on the gorgon with that ridge on its back?
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  • eldartheldarth Member Posts: 4,494 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    The only way it could be "weightless" is if it had 0 mass. If it was just not affected by gravity that would serve no purpose aside from making it easier to carry around (except you would still feel its weight every time you apply acceleration to it).

    Not quite.
    Weight = Mass x Gravity

    In zero gravity, it would have no weight (or if for some reason gravity exerted no pull on the mass).
    And yes, you would feel the "force" of the mass when you apply acceleration (swing) it.
    Likewise, the recipient would feel the force as the accelerated mass struck them.
  • niadanniadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    eldarth wrote: »
    Not quite.
    Weight = Mass x Gravity

    In zero gravity, it would have no weight (or if for some reason gravity exerted no pull on the mass).
    And yes, you would feel the "force" of the mass when you apply acceleration (swing) it.
    Likewise, the recipient would feel the force as the accelerated mass struck them.
    I know it is not D&D but think a good example would be Thor's Hammer. Only he can weld it.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    niadan wrote: »
    I know it is not D&D but think a good example would be Thor's Hammer. Only he can weld it.

    My favorite bit of science about that.

    http://gizmodo.com/thors-hammer-is-so-heavy-it-would-kill-everything-1548005970
  • niadanniadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    charononus wrote: »

    Loved the article Charononus!
  • oclosoclos Member Posts: 58 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I've recognized it as soon as I saw the promo, before the actual release. I'm not a huge fan of Gorgons per se, but I've seen that exact look before, they did a great job with it. And it is actually a good mount. Though I tend to use mounts depending on the character.
    (Off topic: I would love it if it also means we shall see minotaurs as an upcoming race too! Considering it's based in the general bull looks and we have drake mounts/dragonborn race...)
  • katbozejziemikatbozejziemi Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 856 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    eldarth wrote: »
    Not quite.
    Weight = Mass x Gravity

    In zero gravity, it would have no weight (or if for some reason gravity exerted no pull on the mass).
    And yes, you would feel the "force" of the mass when you apply acceleration (swing) it.
    Likewise, the recipient would feel the force as the accelerated mass struck them.
    If mass is not 0, then gravity must be 0. Since gravity is acceleration, that means the item would stop being weightless the moment you move it, and it would still retain its original inertia. It wouldn't really be any easier to wield and would require (almost) the same amount of work to move. The only way a weightless weapon would work is if it didn't rely on the force of impact to deal damage (see lightsaber).

    Additionally, if the magic was that the sword has no mass only for the wielder, that would probably have some catastrophic results as well, since you'd be able to swing it so fast that it would just explode on impact. And let's not forget about air resistance...
  • stah01stah01 Member Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    The gorgon is nice but the back left foot has a graphics glitch and extends into the ground and does some janky stuff. Seems to be only the back left foot also.

    sXNEXcs.png
    GShBCGl.jpg
  • steviefischersteviefischer Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Yeah... I avoid jumping on the Gorgon as much as possible because of that.

    untitl12.jpg
    5peb.png
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,467 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    The polygons on that hoof didn't get any bone weights. When the leg moves, the hoof stays planted on the ground.
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  • bioshrikebioshrike Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,729 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    hustin1 wrote: »
    The polygons on that hoof didn't get any bone weights. When the leg moves, the hoof stays planted on the ground.

    That's frustrating! You'd think that, before releasing a mount, they'd have someone ride one around on various surfaces and watch it form various perspectives, to make sure it didn't behaving unexpectedly.
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  • frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    bioshrike wrote: »
    That's frustrating! You'd think that, before releasing a mount, they'd have someone ride one around on various surfaces and watch it form various perspectives, to make sure it didn't behaving unexpectedly.

    With the stone of radiance skin bug, and both dragonborn races being released with issues, no I wouldn't :D
  • eldartheldarth Member Posts: 4,494 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    bioshrike wrote: »
    That's frustrating! You'd think that, before releasing a mount, they'd have someone ride one around on various surfaces and watch it form various perspectives, to make sure it didn't behaving unexpectedly.

    They can't even get orbs upright and facing forward. It seems that every single release/patch is further evidence that either the QA department is incredibly inept, there is no QA department, or marketing vetoes and overrides all other departments.

    I blame marketing. They must eat their marshmallow RIGHT NOW!
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