my 10k tr with no weapon/armor enchants is at page 80 or so on leaderboard, i think there are plenty of full legendary chars around there. Is nothing op at the class is only skill... rofl.
My 19.7gs GF :page 85
My 11.3gs TR:page 112. lol!!!
My Tr is the worst sub par build MI Scoundrel and i still kill anyine in 1vs1 us up tp 5-6k gs of mine.
My 19.7gs GF :page 85
My 11.3gs TR:page 112. lol!!!
My Tr is the worst sub par build MI Scoundrel and i still kill anyine in 1vs1 us up tp 5-6k gs of mine.
There's no sub par TR builds. They're just played differently.
Ontopic. I agree completely, Hit-Kill causes so much rage because it gives people an illusion that they can win. AoE-Hit-Kill gameplay will remove such illusions which, in order, will reduce the amount of rage and toxicity in PvP.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
So at this point, you're basically arguing that stealthy classes are always best or second best anyway, so it's pointless to try to change that, as all the most skilled players will be drawn to play that. Which is a very roundabout way of saying "TR players are more skilled than others, everyone else should learn2play."
It's also a stupidly cyclical argument. The best players will be drawn to the best class, hence the best class will have the best players, and that means TRs really aren't that imbalanced. And I guess after that, there's a song-and-dance number or maybe fingers entering ears to shut sound out.
Doesnt this kweesa guy disproves himself? If the best players tend to play the best class, why is HE playing a TR? :-D
Seriously, he is just randomforumwarrior2 for me. And so should his endless walls of text be treated.
for Christ sake, i am so frustrated with trs deciding all the **** games. This is ridiculous every game 4 trs in game. How about you disable the pvp for them? Why? maybe because 50/100 top win ratios belongs to them. It maybe just me but i think that is slightly above average. You know considering there are like 7 classes, which means average should be like i dont know 15%, but no fu* 50% is totaly fine. Balanced so well. And i have been keeping track in a period of month it has increased from 40% to 50%. What i don't undesrstand is it so hard to make changes a little less drastic or maybe i dont know get some top players and offer them a job to test some of the new things before the release? I even have some suggestions how to solve some of it - maybe introduce such things as passive perception if you wish to keep the perma stealth a thing, why ? because just dying out of thin air is not very fun thing to play. Oh how about look at other classes - usualy if you want to do dmg you have to secrifise your defenses right? How about trs? Nah fu* that sh*, they get invisibility, they get dodge, they get supperior deflect, they get increased declect chance on their dexterity stat. Yea its realy fun when your full rotation is completle dodged/deflected and all you have left is all your skills on cds. while at that time tr is already steathed and rap* your as*. Have a nice day.
So at this point, you're basically arguing that stealthy classes are always best or second best anyway, so it's pointless to try to change that, as all the most skilled players will be drawn to play that. Which is a very roundabout way of saying "TR players are more skilled than others, everyone else should learn2play."
Naw, it's a rounded-about way of saying that in whatever form, the ability to choose your engagements under your own terms is a very powerful advantage that is like none other. It is also a way of saying that anything that has stealth will simply have a tendency to show much higher K/D stats than usual, and its hardly an indicator neither skill, nor performance.
You can't get an accurate picture through statistics when you don't know what those statistics actually mean. Stealthed classes are frequent source of irregularities.
Just for an example on reading the statistics, the "Jedi Sage/Sith Inquisitor syndrome" in SWTOR.
These classes were DoT based classes and would always show up has having the highest DPS than any other class in PvP. Many people protested them being totally OP and bullshi*, while the players of those classes actually had a different opinion in that they were much hard pressed to survive and not OP at all.
As it turned out, the end-game scoreboard had a tendency to show those classes with mega-loads of DPS because the class mechanics allowed them to spam just globs and globs of DoT "fluff damage" to everything they see. So in reality, they wouldn't do any kind of threatening, real damage to anyone, and their damage was generally low in terms of 1vs1, they couldn't kill anything, and more likely be killed easily -- but, when it comes to damage, the scoreboard kept track of their DoTs just endlessly doing small amounts of irrelevant and useless fluff damage, so when the game ended, contrary to how they actually performed in game, their DPS scores were showing massive numbers.
Anyone just looking at numbers without properly knowing why that happens, would simply determine "those two classes are OP, lookit damage!". The reality begs to differ, and much the same with ANY stealth classes. Stats are dangerous when you don't know how to read it correctly, because all the wrong people quote it in the worst ways -- like as seen in this thread.
It's also a stupidly cyclical argument. The best players will be drawn to the best class, hence the best class will have the best players, and that means TRs really aren't that imbalanced. And I guess after that, there's a song-and-dance number or maybe fingers entering ears to shut sound out.
It's only stupidly cyclical when it's not true. If you know the PvP scene, then you know it is true. If you've ever played any PvP in any other MMOGs, think back and try to remember. Who is the most memorable player that comes to your mind? My bet is its either a stealth class or a wizard.
When I think back, the absolutely most terrifying, psycopathic, clever player in UO was 'dragondog', some of you may remember him as 'drakedog' in WoW. UO didn't really have a stealth class, but in WoW 'dd' was a warlock. The second player that comes to mind is virtne, who is -- what else? -- a ice mage. In any of the arena matches I've had in all those games, the 'top-class' that one remembers is always either that thief/rogue/assassin/whatever that you can never get a hold of, or that wizard/sorceror/mage/whatever that would always slip away and blast you to kingdom come with you having zero chance of getting in close.
So at least for me, the experience rings true. I'm guessing a lot of you would be the same, if you'd really have played these MMOs during the past decade.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Doesnt this kweesa guy disproves himself? If the best players tend to play the best class, why is HE playing a TR? :-D
Seriously, he is just randomforumwarrior2 for me. And so should his endless walls of text be treated.
Elementary logic, padawn.
A=B does not mean B=A.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
0
beatannierMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 692Arc User
And that how it should be they get one of the strongest tactical aspects - surprise, so they should either be low in def as in your example or in dmg, but right now they are tankier than gfs and deals the most burst dmg in game.
I'm going to have to go pedantic on you and say that from a logic standpoint, A=B and B=A mean the exact same thing, that's the definition of mathematical equality & logic equivalence. What you are looking for is implication, A implies B, but B does not imply A.
(A => != (B => A)
/Offtopic
What annoys me with Shocking Execution is that it deals all of its damage in a single hit, meaning that you have to dodge that single strike. I would be okay with the amount of damage it deals if it was separated if 3-5 hits (preferably that don't daze), which would require a trickier setup (eg. forcing the daze into SE) or a teammate applying control to the target for the duration of the execution. Or if it was easier to reveal a stealthed rogue when grouped up with your teammates, as I often see rogues pick-off a teammate then pop smoke/itc + sigil then dodge back to stealth and then inta-gibbing someone else ten seconds later without requiring any support or set up from its own team.
In anycase, I'm not asking for rogues to be nerfed into oblivion, I've seen that happen often enough already, but I would prefer the class to move to a high-risk-high-reward playstyle that emphasises synergy with your teammates rather than solo-intagibbing people every 30 seconds with little to no setup.
In anycase, here is a quick summary of my personal gameplay experience.
At my level of play (I have characters in the 11k-15k range), I routinely get hit by 22k-29k execs, with a few dips into 30k to 45k when facing higher-tier rogues. What that means for the characters I'm playing:
1) My T1 HR has to dodge it, one way or another.
2) My T2 DC can survive it most of the time, and with luck gift of faith nullifies that strike instantly. I'm more bothered by 10-seconds chained daze effects.
3) My T2 CW can actually survive a single hit from full HP, but will die from follow-up encounters/at-wills from either the rogue itself or its teammates.
Looks like everyone is screaming "Hey I spend alot of money on my CW,GWF,GF,SW and HR the OPness should go there not TR!"
You sound ridiculous no one is saying to nerf them to the ground simply the difference in mechanics should not put a single class so much above all other classes. We are speaking about balance not overpowering some different class, personally i find it bull**** both play against op and play op classes - i want my skills put me above the average not the class that i chose. And both playing op or playing against op ruins it.
You sound ridiculous no one is saying to nerf them to the ground simply the difference in mechanics should not put a single class so much above all other classes. We are speaking about balance not overpowering some different class, personally i find it bull**** both play against op and play op classes - i want my skills put me above the average not the class that i chose. And both playing op or playing against op ruins it.
You sound ridiculous no one is saying to nerf them to the ground simply the difference in mechanics should not put a single class so much above all other classes. We are speaking about balance not overpowering some different class, personally i find it bull**** both play against op and play op classes - i want my skills put me above the average not the class that i chose. And both playing op or playing against op ruins it.
At the risk of putting my own serious response into a satire thread. I think a huge part of the problem is cryptics history of trying to create balance.
TR's had high damage before and got nerfed to the ground where all they could do is run around and annoy people as permastealth. They became unwanted in pve and pvp.
GWF's had high damage and survival and were nerfed to the ground now have ok damage in pvp, no damage in pve, and the survivability of a rag soaked in gasoline in a pyromaniacs house.
Would balance be nice, yes. Do most people have any confidence in it actually happening? My guess is no. Most people look at balance changes now with a sense of fear as they know in their hearts that whatever change is made will go to far in either direction.
At the risk of putting my own serious response into a satire thread. I think a huge part of the problem is cryptics history of trying to create balance.
TR's had high damage before and got nerfed to the ground where all they could do is run around and annoy people as permastealth. They became unwanted in pve and pvp.
GWF's had high damage and survival and were nerfed to the ground now have ok damage in pvp, no damage in pve, and the survivability of a rag soaked in gasoline in a pyromaniacs house.
Would balance be nice, yes. Do most people have any confidence in it actually happening? My guess is no. Most people look at balance changes now with a sense of fear as they know in their hearts that whatever change is made will go to far in either direction.
The main biggest problem is not the fact that dev looking for balance, that is good and normal i think. The main problem is that dev come with the argument that they want balance with the same work between pve and pvp. here on my view, unless you play with one kind of character only, it's nearly impossible. If they want to succed and make a near to the point balance they need to have feat working with differents lvl when it come to PVP. Why because each time they made a balance in one, it come unbalance in the other and the only way to get real balance would be everyone have same class.
here some thing how some point should improve thing by just making things work different in PVP / PVE
GWF - inflexible .when flag in PVP Actual is fine, PVE, raise the DR damage to 40/20 and lower damage taken to get full bar from 40 to 30 %
TR - actual is fine in PVE, In PVP a rogue should not be allow to return in stealth inside the field of vision of an enemy (ex like shield for GF that work in front, when TR is in front of a player returning in stealth don't work). control power should be down to 2 second. (on that should be the case for every class, no one should be allow to launch more than 1 power after a control so when you control or you chain with an other control or you make your big hit, but not both)
HR - in PVP near fine, maybe little less regen hability, IN PVE probably some up needed
CW : PVE, quite hard, when solo 3 second if ice stack immun is too much but come ok when multi CW party where ice freeze cumulate.
PVP, CW lack of defensive hability and control immun system. i suggested long time ago that shield should give a control immun when at max lvl. also when you have a special bonus for tabbed power (like PVP set) that increase damage, why isn't it also increase defense damage or special power when it not an offensive power tabbed (shield, repel, ray of enfeeblement, etc..)
GF : lacking analyse to be objective.
SW: PVE: between fine and op, doesn't require much change. PVP as CW it somehow require more defensive power since it a full dps oriented class with barelly nothing in defense.
DC : On PVE look really fine, on PVP lack of intel on it but look like quite high powered.
Amazing constructive argument, from what i read i can understand that you differently from me are more then fine having unfair advantage because you can feel all strong and powerful?
If we are talking about pvp maybe we should check out other games like dota or lol, i do realize these games have a less freedom in itemization and level choices, however they are slightly updating champions every month or so in order make the game more fair to everyone - and these games are already balanced better the win rations to single class doesn't not skyrocket as it is in trs case now. Moreover these updates are announces to everyone. Here - we have ninja updates that doesn't clarify anything and tremendous changes every module drastically changing one op class to another. This design is a bit bad in my opinion. Devs could use the forums to clarify what they are going to change/that they have recognized the imbalanced game play/what they have changed:in my opinion this could possibly even reduce the useless comments like yours.
The main biggest problem is not the fact that dev looking for balance, that is good and normal i think. The main problem is that dev come with the argument that they want balance with the same work between pve and pvp. here on my view, unless you play with one kind of character only, it's nearly impossible. If they want to succed and make a near to the point balance they need to have feat working with differents lvl when it come to PVP. Why because each time they made a balance in one, it come unbalance in the other and the only way to get real balance would be everyone have same class.
here some thing how some point should improve thing by just making things work different in PVP / PVE
they are partially doing that already - as i main hr i can see things like prey, or thorned roots working half as effective on players as on monsters. If they use it in one class why cant they use it others just as well.
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited December 2014
I'll just leave this thread open for no apparent reason.
Safe travels,
Archmage Zebular of Mystryl PWE Community Moderator
Comments
My 19.7gs GF :page 85
My 11.3gs TR:page 112. lol!!!
My Tr is the worst sub par build MI Scoundrel and i still kill anyine in 1vs1 us up tp 5-6k gs of mine.
Faith in humanity slightly restored.
Slightly.
There's no sub par TR builds. They're just played differently.
Ontopic. I agree completely, Hit-Kill causes so much rage because it gives people an illusion that they can win. AoE-Hit-Kill gameplay will remove such illusions which, in order, will reduce the amount of rage and toxicity in PvP.
Doesnt this kweesa guy disproves himself? If the best players tend to play the best class, why is HE playing a TR? :-D
Seriously, he is just randomforumwarrior2 for me. And so should his endless walls of text be treated.
Naw, it's a rounded-about way of saying that in whatever form, the ability to choose your engagements under your own terms is a very powerful advantage that is like none other. It is also a way of saying that anything that has stealth will simply have a tendency to show much higher K/D stats than usual, and its hardly an indicator neither skill, nor performance.
You can't get an accurate picture through statistics when you don't know what those statistics actually mean. Stealthed classes are frequent source of irregularities.
Just for an example on reading the statistics, the "Jedi Sage/Sith Inquisitor syndrome" in SWTOR.
These classes were DoT based classes and would always show up has having the highest DPS than any other class in PvP. Many people protested them being totally OP and bullshi*, while the players of those classes actually had a different opinion in that they were much hard pressed to survive and not OP at all.
As it turned out, the end-game scoreboard had a tendency to show those classes with mega-loads of DPS because the class mechanics allowed them to spam just globs and globs of DoT "fluff damage" to everything they see. So in reality, they wouldn't do any kind of threatening, real damage to anyone, and their damage was generally low in terms of 1vs1, they couldn't kill anything, and more likely be killed easily -- but, when it comes to damage, the scoreboard kept track of their DoTs just endlessly doing small amounts of irrelevant and useless fluff damage, so when the game ended, contrary to how they actually performed in game, their DPS scores were showing massive numbers.
Anyone just looking at numbers without properly knowing why that happens, would simply determine "those two classes are OP, lookit damage!". The reality begs to differ, and much the same with ANY stealth classes. Stats are dangerous when you don't know how to read it correctly, because all the wrong people quote it in the worst ways -- like as seen in this thread.
It's only stupidly cyclical when it's not true. If you know the PvP scene, then you know it is true. If you've ever played any PvP in any other MMOGs, think back and try to remember. Who is the most memorable player that comes to your mind? My bet is its either a stealth class or a wizard.
When I think back, the absolutely most terrifying, psycopathic, clever player in UO was 'dragondog', some of you may remember him as 'drakedog' in WoW. UO didn't really have a stealth class, but in WoW 'dd' was a warlock. The second player that comes to mind is virtne, who is -- what else? -- a ice mage. In any of the arena matches I've had in all those games, the 'top-class' that one remembers is always either that thief/rogue/assassin/whatever that you can never get a hold of, or that wizard/sorceror/mage/whatever that would always slip away and blast you to kingdom come with you having zero chance of getting in close.
So at least for me, the experience rings true. I'm guessing a lot of you would be the same, if you'd really have played these MMOs during the past decade.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Elementary logic, padawn.
A=B does not mean B=A.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Short, but pithy
So the intent of this thread is pure sarcasm I take it?
That's the way I read the OP.
(A =>
/Offtopic
What annoys me with Shocking Execution is that it deals all of its damage in a single hit, meaning that you have to dodge that single strike. I would be okay with the amount of damage it deals if it was separated if 3-5 hits (preferably that don't daze), which would require a trickier setup (eg. forcing the daze into SE) or a teammate applying control to the target for the duration of the execution. Or if it was easier to reveal a stealthed rogue when grouped up with your teammates, as I often see rogues pick-off a teammate then pop smoke/itc + sigil then dodge back to stealth and then inta-gibbing someone else ten seconds later without requiring any support or set up from its own team.
In anycase, I'm not asking for rogues to be nerfed into oblivion, I've seen that happen often enough already, but I would prefer the class to move to a high-risk-high-reward playstyle that emphasises synergy with your teammates rather than solo-intagibbing people every 30 seconds with little to no setup.
In anycase, here is a quick summary of my personal gameplay experience.
At my level of play (I have characters in the 11k-15k range), I routinely get hit by 22k-29k execs, with a few dips into 30k to 45k when facing higher-tier rogues. What that means for the characters I'm playing:
1) My T1 HR has to dodge it, one way or another.
2) My T2 DC can survive it most of the time, and with luck gift of faith nullifies that strike instantly. I'm more bothered by 10-seconds chained daze effects.
3) My T2 CW can actually survive a single hit from full HP, but will die from follow-up encounters/at-wills from either the rogue itself or its teammates.
2.7k defense, 650 tenacity
WTB Class Reroll please
You sound ridiculous no one is saying to nerf them to the ground simply the difference in mechanics should not put a single class so much above all other classes. We are speaking about balance not overpowering some different class, personally i find it bull**** both play against op and play op classes - i want my skills put me above the average not the class that i chose. And both playing op or playing against op ruins it.
*moan did hit the right spot *moan *moan
At the risk of putting my own serious response into a satire thread. I think a huge part of the problem is cryptics history of trying to create balance.
TR's had high damage before and got nerfed to the ground where all they could do is run around and annoy people as permastealth. They became unwanted in pve and pvp.
GWF's had high damage and survival and were nerfed to the ground now have ok damage in pvp, no damage in pve, and the survivability of a rag soaked in gasoline in a pyromaniacs house.
Would balance be nice, yes. Do most people have any confidence in it actually happening? My guess is no. Most people look at balance changes now with a sense of fear as they know in their hearts that whatever change is made will go to far in either direction.
The main biggest problem is not the fact that dev looking for balance, that is good and normal i think. The main problem is that dev come with the argument that they want balance with the same work between pve and pvp. here on my view, unless you play with one kind of character only, it's nearly impossible. If they want to succed and make a near to the point balance they need to have feat working with differents lvl when it come to PVP. Why because each time they made a balance in one, it come unbalance in the other and the only way to get real balance would be everyone have same class.
here some thing how some point should improve thing by just making things work different in PVP / PVE
GWF - inflexible .when flag in PVP Actual is fine, PVE, raise the DR damage to 40/20 and lower damage taken to get full bar from 40 to 30 %
TR - actual is fine in PVE, In PVP a rogue should not be allow to return in stealth inside the field of vision of an enemy (ex like shield for GF that work in front, when TR is in front of a player returning in stealth don't work). control power should be down to 2 second. (on that should be the case for every class, no one should be allow to launch more than 1 power after a control so when you control or you chain with an other control or you make your big hit, but not both)
HR - in PVP near fine, maybe little less regen hability, IN PVE probably some up needed
CW : PVE, quite hard, when solo 3 second if ice stack immun is too much but come ok when multi CW party where ice freeze cumulate.
PVP, CW lack of defensive hability and control immun system. i suggested long time ago that shield should give a control immun when at max lvl. also when you have a special bonus for tabbed power (like PVP set) that increase damage, why isn't it also increase defense damage or special power when it not an offensive power tabbed (shield, repel, ray of enfeeblement, etc..)
GF : lacking analyse to be objective.
SW: PVE: between fine and op, doesn't require much change. PVP as CW it somehow require more defensive power since it a full dps oriented class with barelly nothing in defense.
DC : On PVE look really fine, on PVP lack of intel on it but look like quite high powered.
Amazing constructive argument, from what i read i can understand that you differently from me are more then fine having unfair advantage because you can feel all strong and powerful?
If we are talking about pvp maybe we should check out other games like dota or lol, i do realize these games have a less freedom in itemization and level choices, however they are slightly updating champions every month or so in order make the game more fair to everyone - and these games are already balanced better the win rations to single class doesn't not skyrocket as it is in trs case now. Moreover these updates are announces to everyone. Here - we have ninja updates that doesn't clarify anything and tremendous changes every module drastically changing one op class to another. This design is a bit bad in my opinion. Devs could use the forums to clarify what they are going to change/that they have recognized the imbalanced game play/what they have changed:in my opinion this could possibly even reduce the useless comments like yours.
they are partially doing that already - as i main hr i can see things like prey, or thorned roots working half as effective on players as on monsters. If they use it in one class why cant they use it others just as well.
Safe travels,
Archmage Zebular of Mystryl
PWE Community Moderator
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