Yet about every class has CC encounters that do not get deflected to nothingness except for GWF. Let them have something to fight with.
And of course, you don't have any problem with Scoundrel's daze proccing off any crit (ranged too) every 5 seconds, but a short range melee prone once every 7+ seconds is a problem huh.
then GWF needs a boost in its CC duration, but I maintain that prones should't be on encounters, only in dailies.
also what has TR dazes have to do with this topic? There are 90234203984023984023420498 topics about TRs, you can discuss that in there. This is about GWF.
then GWF needs a boost in its CC duration, but I maintain that prones should't be on encounters, only in dailies.
also what has TR dazes have to do with this topic? There are 90234203984023984023420498 topics about TRs, you can discuss that in there. This is about GWF.
OK dailies should be, can we GWFs get at least one working daily? Cause you see atm all are interruptible or can be dodge with ease...
then GWF needs a boost in its CC duration, but I maintain that prones should't be on encounters, only in dailies.
also what has TR dazes have to do with this topic? There are 90234203984023984023420498 topics about TRs, you can discuss that in there. This is about GWF.
TR dazes have everything to do with this topic the moment you mentioned that GWF shouldn't have prone encounters. That's double standards, mate. Daze doesn't get affected by deflect and scoundrel can even proc them each 5 and 15 seconds without even using any daze encounters.Yet here we go, you're against encounters that actually require skill to land. I don't get you, mate.
prone for take down only and roar needs stun (duration should be reasonable
I would love to see GWF back in action and kickin like the old days
unstoppable should allow GWF to run with reduce stamina cost
Sorry, but I can't give the whole "Encounter Vs Daily" argument much credit when Devout is in play.
Just because it was said on a Dev post doesn't mean it's right.
The way Prone was original setup was fine, it was a melee only CC mechanic mixed with a few general dailies that ( at the time ) were used much less often. Without prone what advantage does either Fighter class have in this game? The advantage of Ranged DPS is inherent with your position and without extra survivability and specialized CC there's no advantage to putting yourself in an open melee position.
Why should I creep after someone with my GF or sprint after them with my GWF the whole time exposing my position when I can outplay them with one of my ranged classes or walk up to them invisible and end them even quicker than either of my fighters could.
The only reason I think Frontline prone is debatable is because GWF can use it. It's fine for GF and that problem occurred because the classes were given each others path instead of proper original designs.
In this game's current state I would bring maybe 1 Bunker GF and no GWF to a premade.
TR dazes have everything to do with this topic the moment you mentioned that GWF shouldn't have prone encounters. That's double standards, mate. Daze doesn't get affected by deflect and scoundrel can even proc them each 5 and 15 seconds without even using any daze encounters.Yet here we go, you're against encounters that actually require skill to land. I don't get you, mate.
Will the prone let me walk away to escape further abuse? Will they be escapable with CC breakers?
In that case, bring back prones.
Or conversely, will our dazes also root down our opponents at one spot, and be impossible to escape with CC breakers?
In that case, bring back prones.
...
Otherwise, the moment you started comparing dazes to prones your argument effectively self-destructed.
Dazes are NOTHING like prones.
You wanna know the difference between a daze and a prone? Just transform our TR dazes into a prone for ONE day, and I'll show you why you can't compare dazes to prones. (or we can actually sort of simulate that if you promise to stand still and do nothing for the entire duration where you have a halo around your head - no squirming, no Unstoppable, nuthin'. I guess that'd sorta work too)
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
hmm, after putting more thought into this, maybe prones arent rly what a GWF needs even tho you cant kill a high deflect build without them. What it really needs imo is stuns to not be affected by deflect or too much CC reduction cause this is not a LAN game and it should be playable from all over the world. No matter what class you are, you really cant say that something with 17 sec CD should offer me a less than 1 sec of stun and that if i wouldnt have intimidation i wont be able to follow with any skill...
As it is now with many classes having so much burst and so much mobility/invisibility this is slowly turning into a FPS game and there who has the better latency wins 100%, even in RTS latency plays a huge role. There are players vs who i cant land a single skill or cant see them at all, this is why that 2 second reveal was so important.
Also due to the same latency and such mobility of classes many dailies can be easily avoided as the animations are long, see savage advance or indomitable strength/crescendo. I didnt have these problems when i was able to prone cause game was at a much slower pace and i could connect my skills.
What the GAME needs is first place is to reduce the friggin' amount of ArmPen, as well as try and stabilize the overall damage output in terms of PvP. Strengthen tenacity even more -- I never, ever thought I'd be saying this, but Tenacity needs to have additional stats in the form of critchance suppression a la 'resilience' stat in WoW.
Nobody would object to chain CCs or even chained-prones and I'd gladly accept the GWFs throwing prones around like in the previous mods, IF it did not mean the 'end of the game' for any class that is hit by it. Doesn't matter if its a CW or a HR or a TR or a GWF. We all know what happens when your signature move hits first.
This isn't about individual class, it's the entire reality of PvP where the defensive characteristics of each of the classes lag behind the offensive characteristics made possible through huge GS inflation in the past few mods. Many classes put out more than twice the damage they used to do 12 months ago, which sounds all nice and dandy, but then are we twice as much more resilient than 2 months ago?
The damage we put up increase without any limits, but our defensive stats are bound by theirs. When the damage output increased more than two-fold, our deflection did not increase that much, nor did our DR, nor did HP. Our given defensives are almost constant, which is why PvP builds resort to extreme HP -- the only element of defense that has no limit, like how damage has no limit.. except our HP still cannot follow the leaps and bounds our damage is going.
Would people hate it so much, if when you make a mistake and get hit by a GWF prone, and then that costs you maybe 1/4th HP? Probably not. Would it matter so much if CW freeze-combos took off maybe 20% of your HP at time? How about if TR attacks daze-attacks and combos would fester away your HP instead of pick out chunks?
The cost of failure, mistakes, are WAY too high in PvP now, which is what drives people so insanely obsessed with how little or big advantages they hold in terms of relative difference. When people would do much less damage, with the TTK(Time-To-Kill) factor increased greatly, people would make mistakes and would still be able to recover from it if they can manage better combat. Even if you're pitted against an extremely disadvantaged situation, like a CW being hounded by a TR, you would still survive long enough to get help, or escape, or basically try and DO something before you die.
But as a whole, EVERY class does TOO MUCH damage to each other in PvP. Make a mistake against either sentinels or destroyers and literally your HP is cracked under 50% in a matter of seconds. Same with TRs, same with CWs, even the HR DoTs do crapton of damage and bleed away your HP wihtin a blink of an eye.
IMO every class should be doing at least 30% less damage to each other than current.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Will the prone let me walk away to escape further abuse? Will they be escapable with CC breakers?
In that case, bring back prones.
Or conversely, will our dazes also root down our opponents at one spot, and be impossible to escape with CC breakers?
In that case, bring back prones.
...
Otherwise, the moment you started comparing dazes to prones your argument effectively self-destructed.
Dazes are NOTHING like prones.
You wanna know the difference between a daze and a prone? Just transform our TR dazes into a prone for ONE day, and I'll show you why you can't compare dazes to prones. (or we can actually sort of simulate that if you promise to stand still and do nothing for the entire duration where you have a halo around your head - no squirming, no Unstoppable, nuthin'. I guess that'd sorta work too)
First of all, your shortest dazes last almost twice as long as the longest prones. No need for this TR propaganda stuff. And what does it matter if your target walks or not? Not like TR needs to be in melee range to deal damage.
Remove the probability of stuns getting deflected and I'll be good without prones. But as it currently is, GWF is without any CC powers due to how much deflect can certain classes stack. And GWF cannot land certain encounters without CC at all.
The name is TakeDown. There should not even be a poll about whether or not the TakeDown must take down.
Anyway it's irrelevant as all the pvp is TRs and a perma-dazed Gwf will never be able to even hit, less so take down, a perma-uncatchable, perma-stealthed TR who has a spike damage ten times as high than a Gwf's damage.
I believe they should return. GWF Takedown, and Iron Vanguard Frontline Surge should be able to prone. Both skills are easy to predict and dodge while the rewards for landing hits are small. Allowing the prone and deflection mitigation would make these skills viable.
Sure, as long as they get rid of the proc of ridiculous damage that comes from a GWF. Which might I AD will work even if you never are hit by them. They just can walk around on a point and like magic 35k ....yea sorry im not seeing where GWF is under powered. Maybe certain paths are but one think i know for sure is if spec'ed with that silly proc they are not hurting at all for damage.
Sure, as long as they get rid of the proc of ridiculous damage that comes from a GWF. Which might I AD will work even if you never are hit by them. They just can walk around on a point and like magic 35k ....yea sorry im not seeing where GWF is under powered. Maybe certain paths are but one think i know for sure is if spec'ed with that silly proc they are not hurting at all for damage.
Sure, if you're 12k+ power GWF, you hit like a truck. Power scaling is to blame for that, but that is about it. If you don't have at least 8k power with a GWF, you're worse than a SW in PvP.
@kweassa, inb4 your posts get deleted for showing us what a non-constructive, toxic post looks like.
First of all, your shortest dazes last almost twice as long as the longest prones. No need for this TR propaganda stuff. And what does it matter if your target walks or not? Not like TR needs to be in melee range to deal damage.
Go try a TR and see how dazed targets moving away from range matters in what way. Best experienced personally rather than having it explained, since your bigoted attitude won't listen to what any TR is saying.
Remove the probability of stuns getting deflected and I'll be good without prones. But as it currently is, GWF is without any CC powers due to how much deflect can certain classes stack. And GWF cannot land certain encounters without CC at all.
A class that fires up CC-breaker/immunity back-to-back on whim, complaining about a squishy class deflecting stuns...? Especially when THAT CLASS ITSELF has a secondary CC-immunity mechanism/bullshi* speed buff, and then as a tertiary mode of protection stacks around 80~90% the amount of deflect a TR/HR can achieve...?
LOL. How much of a double standard do you need to continue this conversation?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Go try a TR and see how dazed targets moving away from range matters in what way. Best experienced personally rather than having it explained, since your bigoted attitude won't listen to what any TR is saying.
A class that fires up CC-breaker/immunity back-to-back on whim, complaining about a squishy class deflecting stuns...? Especially when THAT CLASS ITSELF has a secondary CC-immunity mechanism/bullshi* speed buff, and then as a tertiary mode of protection stacks around 80~90% the amount of deflect a TR/HR can achieve...?
LOL. How much of a double standard do you need to continue this conversation?
I play my alt TR and I fine well know how daze works. With all the extra movement speed TR has I don't have a problem using my full rotation on dazed targets.
A class that fires CC breaker on a whim? Are you srs here? To use unstoppable I have to lose half my HP bar and it only lasts 4-8 seconds. You can easily kite a GWF who's under unstoppable and then CC kill him the moment it goes off. And what about attack speed buff? My at wills hit for 800 damage PRE-MITIGATION in PvP with 8k power. You must be the first person afraid of that. As for sprint? I'd trade my sprint for your dodge roll any day! 30% DR compared to dodge immunity is bull. Not to mention TR roll takes you further and faster than sprint and can be used back to back too. So *****, please. And what protection stacks are you talking about?
Moreover, TR is not a squishy but a ****ing tank and you can't prove otherwise. You reek of double standards.
Comments
also what has TR dazes have to do with this topic? There are 90234203984023984023420498 topics about TRs, you can discuss that in there. This is about GWF.
OK dailies should be, can we GWFs get at least one working daily? Cause you see atm all are interruptible or can be dodge with ease...
TR dazes have everything to do with this topic the moment you mentioned that GWF shouldn't have prone encounters. That's double standards, mate. Daze doesn't get affected by deflect and scoundrel can even proc them each 5 and 15 seconds without even using any daze encounters.Yet here we go, you're against encounters that actually require skill to land. I don't get you, mate.
I would love to see GWF back in action and kickin like the old days
unstoppable should allow GWF to run with reduce stamina cost
Prone on FLS? Not so sure about that, but for sure that skill need lower cooldown (about 11-13s) and highier dmg!
Just because it was said on a Dev post doesn't mean it's right.
The way Prone was original setup was fine, it was a melee only CC mechanic mixed with a few general dailies that ( at the time ) were used much less often. Without prone what advantage does either Fighter class have in this game? The advantage of Ranged DPS is inherent with your position and without extra survivability and specialized CC there's no advantage to putting yourself in an open melee position.
Why should I creep after someone with my GF or sprint after them with my GWF the whole time exposing my position when I can outplay them with one of my ranged classes or walk up to them invisible and end them even quicker than either of my fighters could.
The only reason I think Frontline prone is debatable is because GWF can use it. It's fine for GF and that problem occurred because the classes were given each others path instead of proper original designs.
In this game's current state I would bring maybe 1 Bunker GF and no GWF to a premade.
Will the prone let me walk away to escape further abuse? Will they be escapable with CC breakers?
In that case, bring back prones.
Or conversely, will our dazes also root down our opponents at one spot, and be impossible to escape with CC breakers?
In that case, bring back prones.
...
Otherwise, the moment you started comparing dazes to prones your argument effectively self-destructed.
Dazes are NOTHING like prones.
You wanna know the difference between a daze and a prone? Just transform our TR dazes into a prone for ONE day, and I'll show you why you can't compare dazes to prones. (or we can actually sort of simulate that if you promise to stand still and do nothing for the entire duration where you have a halo around your head - no squirming, no Unstoppable, nuthin'. I guess that'd sorta work too)
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As it is now with many classes having so much burst and so much mobility/invisibility this is slowly turning into a FPS game and there who has the better latency wins 100%, even in RTS latency plays a huge role. There are players vs who i cant land a single skill or cant see them at all, this is why that 2 second reveal was so important.
Also due to the same latency and such mobility of classes many dailies can be easily avoided as the animations are long, see savage advance or indomitable strength/crescendo. I didnt have these problems when i was able to prone cause game was at a much slower pace and i could connect my skills.
PS: i rly hope we still have a class advocate
Nobody would object to chain CCs or even chained-prones and I'd gladly accept the GWFs throwing prones around like in the previous mods, IF it did not mean the 'end of the game' for any class that is hit by it. Doesn't matter if its a CW or a HR or a TR or a GWF. We all know what happens when your signature move hits first.
This isn't about individual class, it's the entire reality of PvP where the defensive characteristics of each of the classes lag behind the offensive characteristics made possible through huge GS inflation in the past few mods. Many classes put out more than twice the damage they used to do 12 months ago, which sounds all nice and dandy, but then are we twice as much more resilient than 2 months ago?
The damage we put up increase without any limits, but our defensive stats are bound by theirs. When the damage output increased more than two-fold, our deflection did not increase that much, nor did our DR, nor did HP. Our given defensives are almost constant, which is why PvP builds resort to extreme HP -- the only element of defense that has no limit, like how damage has no limit.. except our HP still cannot follow the leaps and bounds our damage is going.
Would people hate it so much, if when you make a mistake and get hit by a GWF prone, and then that costs you maybe 1/4th HP? Probably not. Would it matter so much if CW freeze-combos took off maybe 20% of your HP at time? How about if TR attacks daze-attacks and combos would fester away your HP instead of pick out chunks?
The cost of failure, mistakes, are WAY too high in PvP now, which is what drives people so insanely obsessed with how little or big advantages they hold in terms of relative difference. When people would do much less damage, with the TTK(Time-To-Kill) factor increased greatly, people would make mistakes and would still be able to recover from it if they can manage better combat. Even if you're pitted against an extremely disadvantaged situation, like a CW being hounded by a TR, you would still survive long enough to get help, or escape, or basically try and DO something before you die.
But as a whole, EVERY class does TOO MUCH damage to each other in PvP. Make a mistake against either sentinels or destroyers and literally your HP is cracked under 50% in a matter of seconds. Same with TRs, same with CWs, even the HR DoTs do crapton of damage and bleed away your HP wihtin a blink of an eye.
IMO every class should be doing at least 30% less damage to each other than current.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
First of all, your shortest dazes last almost twice as long as the longest prones. No need for this TR propaganda stuff. And what does it matter if your target walks or not? Not like TR needs to be in melee range to deal damage.
Remove the probability of stuns getting deflected and I'll be good without prones. But as it currently is, GWF is without any CC powers due to how much deflect can certain classes stack. And GWF cannot land certain encounters without CC at all.
Anyway it's irrelevant as all the pvp is TRs and a perma-dazed Gwf will never be able to even hit, less so take down, a perma-uncatchable, perma-stealthed TR who has a spike damage ten times as high than a Gwf's damage.
Sure, as long as they get rid of the proc of ridiculous damage that comes from a GWF. Which might I AD will work even if you never are hit by them. They just can walk around on a point and like magic 35k ....yea sorry im not seeing where GWF is under powered. Maybe certain paths are but one think i know for sure is if spec'ed with that silly proc they are not hurting at all for damage.
@kweassa, inb4 your posts get deleted for showing us what a non-constructive, toxic post looks like.
Go try a TR and see how dazed targets moving away from range matters in what way. Best experienced personally rather than having it explained, since your bigoted attitude won't listen to what any TR is saying.
A class that fires up CC-breaker/immunity back-to-back on whim, complaining about a squishy class deflecting stuns...? Especially when THAT CLASS ITSELF has a secondary CC-immunity mechanism/bullshi* speed buff, and then as a tertiary mode of protection stacks around 80~90% the amount of deflect a TR/HR can achieve...?
LOL. How much of a double standard do you need to continue this conversation?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I play my alt TR and I fine well know how daze works. With all the extra movement speed TR has I don't have a problem using my full rotation on dazed targets.
A class that fires CC breaker on a whim? Are you srs here? To use unstoppable I have to lose half my HP bar and it only lasts 4-8 seconds. You can easily kite a GWF who's under unstoppable and then CC kill him the moment it goes off. And what about attack speed buff? My at wills hit for 800 damage PRE-MITIGATION in PvP with 8k power. You must be the first person afraid of that. As for sprint? I'd trade my sprint for your dodge roll any day! 30% DR compared to dodge immunity is bull. Not to mention TR roll takes you further and faster than sprint and can be used back to back too. So *****, please. And what protection stacks are you talking about?
Moreover, TR is not a squishy but a ****ing tank and you can't prove otherwise. You reek of double standards.