at 14k power now, you can change your avatar to fabled, you get better damage from that.
i think u cannot compar gwf with SW, cause SW still has broken feats that multi procc like our old deepgash.
and about the sets,yea we need better sets.
We can compare GWF to Fury SW because the only thing that both classes add to the party is DPS, broken or not, it doesn't matter, it is what we have now in the live server, there's no reason why would someone would pick up a GWF instead of a SW.
Regarding to Fabled and AoW - 1,350 power / 166 = 8.13% bonus dmg and if you have 1,650 recovery which you should have with your GWF, adding 1,350 means extra 8% recharge speed/AP gain, how are these bonuses inferior to 5% dmg increase with the fable set? Please, explain with numbers.
We can compare GWF to Fury SW because the only thing that both classes add to the party is DPS, broken or not, it doesn't matter, it is what we have now in the live server, there's no reason why would someone would pick up a GWF instead of a SW.
Regarding to Fabled and AoW - 1,350 power / 166 = 8.13% bonus dmg and if you have 1,650 recovery which you should have with your GWF, adding 1,350 means extra 8% recharge speed/AP gain, how are these bonuses inferior to 5% dmg increase with the fable set? Please, explain with numbers.
u're right
nvm i tought it suffers from diminishin return for a sec .
but it does matter cause they need to fix SW not ultra buff us for that reason to beat a broken SW.
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kieranmtornMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 382Arc User
u're right
nvm i tought it suffers from diminishin return for a sec .
but it does matter cause they need to fix SW not ultra buff us for that reason to beat a broken SW.
They really can't nerf SW, it has to be superior DPS to a SS/Thaum or SS/Renegade CW to be viable. Pure DPS classes need to exceed a good CW's DPS to be viable (at similar gear levels), otherwise the control/utility/DPS choice that a CW represents is a better choice (also consider a Righteous DC: control/utility/heals/DPS that is superior to us also).
gwf to be ok to the way it is, will require a whole hierarchy of nerfs that will expel half of the small playerbase that remains (mimimi, the devs dont listen the players and now nerf everthing).
the buff is inevitable. the difference is whether it is a buff that will put the class on the line by solid changes (maybe creating a new positive-conservative tradeoff demand to other classes) or "op changes", creating a new uncontrollable "rework" demand.
trustme (devs) if it happens to the gwf become substantially stronger without thereby be necessary to triple the current damage of ibs / have 100% of critical damage chance, etc., people will begin to discuss the consistency of their own classes, then all the gradually return to a "acceptable" point.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited December 2014
I play all classes, the only people I know who play GWF as a main, are those BiS types who invested alot, they do ok as a whole using Sent they can AOE down mobs in DDS and work ok in pvp. Destroyer is ok during Tiamat, thats pretty much it.
The curve of effectiveness on GWF is clearly much higher (20k is almost needed to be of any use) compared to 17k CWs, SWs and DCs.
I parked mine until the inevitable reworking sometime in mod 7-8 or whenever.
The shame of the game today, is the investment you need in artifact refining, its dangerous to build up any class now, you just dont have the time/resources to build more then one, so its a pure gamble on which will last long enough. I think the DC is in a good spot right now, powerful, but not ridiculous like the TR. So thats my gamble of the moment. I parked my TR as well, figure they will just blast them down soon anyways. CWs always seem to be void to this the most massive type of nerfs, all they did in that balance is move them from a medium range destroyer of everything to a close range destroyer of everything for pve and for pvp , made all those mad passives kill everyone.
I always liked DC though, so I dont mind main-ing it, Ill try to get everything for CW (artifact wise) and keep it at blue levels where I can and wait to see if they move RP price down to reasonable at some point or allow play time to be translated to rp , or something like that.
note:
another problem , and I do not know if with other classes happens too, is that when the server is lagged, some "bonus" are not calculated at the time of the damage (mark for what i see). whereas gwf is a class with a very low base damage + some busts of 40/50% extra damage ...
go to the list of reasons why the base damage needs to be increased instead of proceeding with this project "clean slate" which has its damage increased through restricted feets (including sentinel) limiting the gameplay rather than individualize.
Offering an entirely fresh perspective as those who know the GWF through either fighting against it, or fighting with it, I'd say the main problem with your class is that the basic "format" of combat the GWF uses is still stuck in the stone age, when everything else have been changed, especially TRs and DCs.. and to a lesser extent even HRs.
I can understand the simple and powerful appeal of the Hulk-like"sprint in, burst into big AoEs, start swinging away", but as someone who fights the GWFs, it's frankly really archaic. It's something mod2 GWFs would do when CWs, HRs, TRs, DCs were nothing like what they are now... not like how these opponent classes were much slower, had less dodges, hit weaker, attacked slower in those days.
Comparing the gradual evolution of classes between mod2 to current mod5, all the classes have been significantly rearranged towards efficiency, if not becoming straight-up powerful, but then the GWF still retains a very, very old style of fighting where it generally relies on random, wild swings of at-wills, and equipped with encounters which feel (from the opponent's view) very bad in efficiency. Generally slow activating, not too impressive utility, and sometimes the only redeeming factor being strange stuff (like cooldown reduction on power miss, or stuff like that).
In other words, IMO, when looking at you GWFs, from this side, it doesn't look like a problem with just powers, or how something needs buffed or not. Rather it feels like your whole class is stuck in this really inefficient, clumsy combat design that hasn't been changed since mod2. Oh sure, FotM powers/encounters may change, but the basic style of fighting is still the same. Compare that to how much HRs or TRs, or even DCs have changed.
IMO, you guys need a total class redesign from top to bottom, a total makeover of the feats that make up your three paths, like us TRs were redesigned.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
1. Resist damage: in time due to constant power creep (arpen/piercing) it became less and less and never got an update.
2. Medium CC role on a target: due high mobility and increase in deflect/healing for the rest, this role vanished.
3. Deal burst dmg: No longer possible due slow class animations and the increase in CC resistance.
4. Mobility: due to lower cds pushes that are way overused atm with no chance for a GWF/GF to defend against them.
Class only needs an update and not a redesign, also things like lifesteal/ap gain for HR, oneshot/ap gain for TR, repel/sunburst for dc/cw do need a fix as well.
1. Resist damage: in time due to constant power creep (arpen/piercing) it became less and less and never got an update.
2. Medium CC role on a target: due high mobility and increase in deflect/healing for the rest, this role vanished.
3. Deal burst dmg: No longer possible due slow class animations and the increase in CC resistance.
4. Mobility: due to lower cds pushes that are way overused atm with no chance for a GWF/GF to defend against them.
Class only needs an update and not a redesign, also things like lifesteal/ap gain for HR, oneshot/ap gain for TR, repel/sunburst for dc/cw do need a fix as well.
Well you can certainly play that role in a DIFFERENT way I imagine. It's something more subtle than just stats, and hence from 'this side' it looks why both the devs and players are endlessly running at parallels.
It's like this. When a certain power changes even the simplest of things, like how fast it activates or animates, then while the stat itself hasn't changed much suddenly the overall efficiency increases dramatically -- the prime example in this case being TR Dazing Strike. The damage wasn't changed, neither was the daze duration -- except what used to be a power that'd rarely be even seen in PvP, is now one of the most powerful TR CCs in its arsenal. IMO GWFs are full of stuff like that. Something that requires the players' attention more than just discussing raw stats and stuff. The "DESIGN" of how the GWF fights. IMO it has room for improvement.
If the GWF players don't want to change anything, then well, its their preference, their choice.. but like said, as someone who would fight GWFs on the other side, a LOT of GWF tactics and powers seem quite limited in the first place. The best GWF players still make 100% use of what they are capable of, and they're deadly powerful players, that's for sure, but it seems that "what they are capable of" itself is limited by the class combat design in the first place, not necessarily by stats.
Keeping on tweaking with stats, IMO, would probably not give you guys the result you want. Just the same, the devs tried continuously tweaking with TRs, and it didn't work. Finally they realized they need simply a different design, something that worked more efficiently. Leaving out the TR=OP discussions from this post, simply, even if TRs are nerfed more, still the basic design change -- how we TRs fight, the "style" itself -- will remain changed, the three paths doing things different and more efficiently than the past mods where our options were so limited.
Better designs in all aspects, IMO, the GWFs need. They too clumsy right now, in every sort of possible way.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
1 - first the class dont work correctly in several critical aspects. I would like to see this first.
2 - I never pronounce me about rogues, but I do not see it as a healthy model for the game, honestly. the new dc looks like a satire of "balance". ridiculous like a m4 cw. sw only come to destroy pve. that is my personal opinion. if I knew these would be the buffs, I never would have supported it.
3 - I do not choose a class just for efficiency, but the concept. the efficiency should be given respecting this concept.
for example, I, zacazu, I would love if the devs add casting bars to all encounters of the class in order to be an additional damage magnifier. and these attacks consume stamina based on the charge time..
I could could run freely while casting a ibs, but if i dont have stamina to pay this attack, I get a penalty x proportional to the debt.
at first, it is not effective or complex. is vague inspiration dark souls, a really hard game. but I feel like a fighter that has the dilemmas to his fighting style, and not a fast dps whose the giant sword is merely illustrative. after all,is a good excuse for the previous low base damage. fast attack = low damage. the real heavy attack of gwf is slow and have a big tradeoff proportional to carry a big sword/heavy armor.
then we would have low ac sets that consume less stamina? the companions dilemmas? new boons choices? yes, all that. your choices and gameplays will bring more or less effectiveness. I do not want a "top damage burst" because I want to do all the content alone as suggested someone else in another topic. and definitely is not for lake of imagination. I want that Because matches to the phenotype of the class. this will have a price? ok, i pay.
Why would anyone roll a GWF? They believed the press (lies)! If this were a washing machine, I'd sue the manufacturer because it doesn't wash for diddley.
I started no long ago. My friend said "roll a GWF Destroyer, they're amazing". He hadn't played one in a long time. He's got lots of toons. It is not amazing. This explains why he now keeps pushing me to use my "now-60" CW. My GWF is specced for DPS and has AoW with a 14K GS. Very squishy. Abysmal DPS, it's embarrassing.
I'm actually having great fun with my half-orc GWF, Candi Payne. She's a high crit PVE build based upon Lazalia and Lia's very nice guides. Candi is my third 60th level character, the first two being a CW and a SW. Maybe it's just my simple mind and aged eye-hand coordination, but I find a GWF is much easier to play than either a CW or SW. For example, my CW and SW consistently had huge problems with any mob containing two of those Cult of the Dragon ranger-like baddies, such as at/near the end of Ghost Stories and Miner Problem. Candi just sprints up to them and chops them into little pieces. It's very satisfying.
I'm actually having great fun with my half-orc GWF, Candi Payne. She's a high crit PVE build based upon Lazalia and Lia's very nice guides. Candi is my third 60th level character, the first two being a CW and a SW. Maybe it's just my simple mind and aged eye-hand coordination, but I find a GWF is much easier to play than either a CW or SW. For example, my CW and SW consistently had huge problems with any mob containing two of those Cult of the Dragon ranger-like baddies, such as at/near the end of Ghost Stories and Miner Problem. Candi just sprints up to them and chops them into little pieces. It's very satisfying.
Thats right. You'll never compete with CW, SW and co in DPS. They have superior AoE, you got AoE too as GWF, but thats
mainly Spinning Strike and Wicked Strike -> very slow.
Laz build is good cause it tries to focus on what the gwf CAN DO GOOD: Single Target DPS.
Also GWF is not as hard to play as CW and SW cause their skill order and timing is much more important since their main damage source are their encounters/dailies. GWF also can perfectionate his skillorder and timings, but failing to do so is not as punishing. Since your main dps comes from At-Wills probably followed by IBS - GWF is easier to play. The skill in playing a good GWF is keeping maximum Unstoppable uptime. This is easy. Just try to use IBS/Dailies/other Encounters/Doohickey when you run out of Determination that should fill the bar right up and you continue At-Will spam. The second and more important thing is the footwork. GWF CANNOT stand in red circles! You have to use your sprint or just normal walking to dance, while fighting. GWF is not a tank hes in playstyle nearly like a TR.
i like to play my GWF as a tank and it can be even more effective than a GF, only problem is hate generation:) Even if it doesnt seem as a hard class to play at first at the end game it is one of the hardest next to hr (looking at pvp), you just cant afford to spam skills and you are always setting traps for the opponents.
Main problem with GWF atm is that it needs gear, a lot of gear, to be competitive, while most others can start enjoying content with much much less.
GWF is not a tank hes in playstyle nearly like a TR.
Bollocks. TR deals twice as much single target damage and tanks much better, offers some decent utility. Tell me, what's better in a boss fight: a) +30% DR each time you dodge, b) 2 seconds dodge immunity? Don't bother answering, we all know the answer.
I lost the number of times I got my tanky sentinel GWF 1 shot by the eSoT boss trough sprint. Even though I had 35k hp and 43% DR back then. I lost the number of times I died multiple times when I walked on DoT AoEs, got rezed by soulforged and died again. All thanks to no dodge immunity. Same thing happens with trash mobs that hit me for 10-15k normal hits post mitigation. TR can dodge out of that, go into stealth, daze in aoe and kill them in seconds. I try to do the same with GWF and what happens is I get hit for half my HP, I go in unstoppable/try to run but die nevertheless. Unless: a) I get BiS gear with tons of lifesteal, b) someone else CCs the mob, c) someone else steals my aggro.
All in all, GWF's damage is inferior to other striker/controler classes, survivability is ****ty, can't keep aggro and utility is non-existent. Please don't you ever compare GWF to TR again, thanks.
Bollocks. TR deals twice as much single target damage and tanks much better, offers some decent utility. Tell me, what's better in a boss fight: a) +30% DR each time you dodge, b) 2 seconds dodge immunity? Don't bother answering, we all know the answer.
I lost the number of times I got my tanky sentinel GWF 1 shot by the eSoT boss trough sprint. Even though I had 35k hp and 43% DR back then. I lost the number of times I died multiple times when I walked on DoT AoEs, got rezed by soulforged and died again. All thanks to no dodge immunity. Same thing happens with trash mobs that hit me for 10-15k normal hits post mitigation. TR can dodge out of that, go into stealth, daze in aoe and kill them in seconds. I try to do the same with GWF and what happens is I get hit for half my HP, I go in unstoppable/try to run but die nevertheless. Unless: a) I get BiS gear with tons of lifesteal, b) someone else CCs the mob, c) someone else steals my aggro.
All in all, GWF's damage is inferior to other striker/controler classes, survivability is ****ty, can't keep aggro and utility is non-existent. Please don't you ever compare GWF to TR again, thanks.
I advise you to read what I wrote again. GWF excells at single target damage and builds mostly offensive like other dps classes, he doesnt have an immunity dodge and therefore is unique to use Footwork to dodge things. This gameplay is TR-like.
I never said GWF is better than TR.
I never said GWF is TR.
I never said GWF has more Utility he has barely any.
I never said GWF is tanky.
I did say (not in this thread) if you die to ESoT boss your a scrub and you should improve.
Lifesteal as of now is easiyl obtainable. Without even trying to stack it you have 1000 or more endgame. Add the option of ToD capstone boons or Dread Rings Endless Consumption = Voila, Damage gained as Hitpoints is not a problem for GWF in any way.
GWF has to be ahead of the group and can easily gain the hate-lead with Daring Shout. He is a GWF and that is not a Utility Class.
Student of the Swords Utility to debuff for the whole party was intentionally removed, the devs showed us that GWF is a "selfish" class
that excels greatly when paired WITH classes that have utility. (example is CW Furious Immolation/Arcane Singularity paired with GWF Spinning Strike/IBS or the buffs/debuffs GF and DC offer you.
I will continue to compare both classes, for the sake of analysing the meta and perfectionate my theory crafting.
I will even compare TR to all other classes not only GWF, if that makes you rage. I honestly don't care.
It is pretty much common knowledge that Sentinel is a more tankier route and therefore has less damage. This is not needed in PvE,
thats why Destroyer is superior. Surely you can enjoy playing Sentinel in PvE, the results will not be as striking though.
i like to play my GWF as a tank and it can be even more effective than a GF, only problem is hate generation:) Even if it doesnt seem as a hard class to play at first at the end game it is one of the hardest next to hr (looking at pvp), you just cant afford to spam skills and you are always setting traps for the opponents.
Main problem with GWF atm is that it needs gear, a lot of gear, to be competitive, while most others can start enjoying content with much much less.
GF can be a great frontliner with a low amount of gear (14-18k) and provides far more utility. GWF doesn't offer comparable AoE like CW/SW and the AoE he has (Spinning Strike/Wicked Strike/ WeaponMasterSrike) is slow.
GF can render the whole party nearly immune since he has perfect aggro control and KV. Also he has access to a plenty of buffs.
I don't think its wise to compare PvE and PvP in skill cap.
If you did not archieve a high gear level yet, I don't think it is smart to judge.
GF can be a great frontliner with a low amount of gear (14-18k) and provides far more utility. GWF doesn't offer comparable AoE like CW/SW and the AoE he has (Spinning Strike/Wicked Strike/ WeaponMasterSrike) is slow.
GF can render the whole party nearly immune since he has perfect aggro control and KV. Also he has access to a plenty of buffs.
I don't think its wise to compare PvE and PvP in skill cap.
If you did not archieve a high gear level yet, I don't think it is smart to judge.
Sry but as GWF we;ve just got a nerf for having too much AOE, it may not be your playstyle but there are plenty of gwf that are still rolling intimidation/executioner hybrid that has pretty much in all encounters heavy hitting aoes.
You want the gwf to be single target dmg dealer, is what you like to play and is good that you can do it.
On the other hand i like a different play style where i depend very little of my grp comp or their GS level and carry them when i have to, if there is a SW that can help me finish the job faster all the better, but i am going to finish it regardless ... i dont need a DC nor a GF or SW to do any dungeon.
I have 24k GS on my GWF and i have been around here since beta, i think is nice to learn from other experiences even if they are not our first go to choice...
the playstyle of rogue, if I'm still interacted, consistent an hit, run, back in stealth and hit very, very hard. and during this time, smoke bomb / etc do the job.
gwf is 100% offensively / mechanically made to never go back.
back means the loss damage. 3 sec out and bye, bye all the base class features of damage (wm/destroyer). AND this is not a little bonus. you have aways 30/40/50% over stacks/debuffs over a big <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> base damage.
There does not exist a parallel; there is a deformity made for... up the defensive ability of a dps after killed your defensive ability? that because.... to separete tank and dps sentinel receive intimidation and instigator a damage bonus based on stacks of damage taken?...
yeah zacazu, but instigators have defensive bonus to sprint to pvp and... aoe bonus for wicked strike? ok, you got the point.
the second point is: how many powers exceptionally single targets gwf have?
this early ejaculation of dev in trying to "balance" before to check the perfomance of these new monsters killed the class and the game.
ps: the damage of cws come to passives. historically and now mathematically cw is the most easiest class in the game. this discussion is no longer subjective. sw i dont know
I advise you to read what I wrote again. GWF excells at single target damage and builds mostly offensive like other dps classes, he doesnt have an immunity dodge and therefore is unique to use Footwork to dodge things. This gameplay is TR-like.
I never said GWF is better than TR.
I never said GWF is TR.
I never said GWF has more Utility he has barely any.
I never said GWF is tanky.
I did say (not in this thread) if you die to ESoT boss your a scrub and you should improve.
Lifesteal as of now is easiyl obtainable. Without even trying to stack it you have 1000 or more endgame. Add the option of ToD capstone boons or Dread Rings Endless Consumption = Voila, Damage gained as Hitpoints is not a problem for GWF in any way.
GWF has to be ahead of the group and can easily gain the hate-lead with Daring Shout. He is a GWF and that is not a Utility Class.
Student of the Swords Utility to debuff for the whole party was intentionally removed, the devs showed us that GWF is a "selfish" class
that excels greatly when paired WITH classes that have utility. (example is CW Furious Immolation/Arcane Singularity paired with GWF Spinning Strike/IBS or the buffs/debuffs GF and DC offer you.
I will continue to compare both classes, for the sake of analysing the meta and perfectionate my theory crafting.
I will even compare TR to all other classes not only GWF, if that makes you rage. I honestly don't care.
It is pretty much common knowledge that Sentinel is a more tankier route and therefore has less damage. This is not needed in PvE,
thats why Destroyer is superior. Surely you can enjoy playing Sentinel in PvE, the results will not be as striking though.
TR hits and runs, GWF hits and keeps hitting with as little movement as possible. All his gameplay is focused on melee-range continuous combat. He can't risk losing his stacks and in turn damage / threat. Moreover, their dodge mechanics are completely different. How can you possibly say their gameplay is the same??
And if you call me a scrub in eSoT for taking the fall for the team then you must be one of those selfish scrubs who'd run around the boss when he's targeting you and get your team killed. In most cases, I can dodge in 90 degree radius around the boss in order not to get someone else killed and that requires lots of skill and luck (ping / sprint activating in time).
Besides, you obviously haven't played sentinel either. I with 9k+ power and the best loadout focused on tanking/generating threat (restoring strike, daring shout, come and get it) can't possibly generate enough threat to steal aggro from any dps focused class with much lower offensive stats. Another thing about sentinel vs destroyer is that sentinel leads in overall damage against a destroyer when his power is ~11-12k. And he doesn't need to stack that many buffs to start dealing damage. That equals in sentinel performing better in PvE at BiS level. Sorry to burst your bubble.
And please, you say 1000 lifesteal is easily obtainable in endgame. Thanks for proving the point that GWF is only playable when you get endgame equipment. While other classes are playable from level 1.
And if you say GWF is a selfish class then why does he perform the worst in everything he does, huh? Take your head out of your rear and look around. GWF is the worst class in PvE and 2nd worst class in PvP after SW.
Comments
We can compare GWF to Fury SW because the only thing that both classes add to the party is DPS, broken or not, it doesn't matter, it is what we have now in the live server, there's no reason why would someone would pick up a GWF instead of a SW.
Regarding to Fabled and AoW - 1,350 power / 166 = 8.13% bonus dmg and if you have 1,650 recovery which you should have with your GWF, adding 1,350 means extra 8% recharge speed/AP gain, how are these bonuses inferior to 5% dmg increase with the fable set? Please, explain with numbers.
nvm i tought it suffers from diminishin return for a sec .
but it does matter cause they need to fix SW not ultra buff us for that reason to beat a broken SW.
They really can't nerf SW, it has to be superior DPS to a SS/Thaum or SS/Renegade CW to be viable. Pure DPS classes need to exceed a good CW's DPS to be viable (at similar gear levels), otherwise the control/utility/DPS choice that a CW represents is a better choice (also consider a Righteous DC: control/utility/heals/DPS that is superior to us also).
the buff is inevitable. the difference is whether it is a buff that will put the class on the line by solid changes (maybe creating a new positive-conservative tradeoff demand to other classes) or "op changes", creating a new uncontrollable "rework" demand.
trustme (devs) if it happens to the gwf become substantially stronger without thereby be necessary to triple the current damage of ibs / have 100% of critical damage chance, etc., people will begin to discuss the consistency of their own classes, then all the gradually return to a "acceptable" point.
The curve of effectiveness on GWF is clearly much higher (20k is almost needed to be of any use) compared to 17k CWs, SWs and DCs.
I parked mine until the inevitable reworking sometime in mod 7-8 or whenever.
The shame of the game today, is the investment you need in artifact refining, its dangerous to build up any class now, you just dont have the time/resources to build more then one, so its a pure gamble on which will last long enough. I think the DC is in a good spot right now, powerful, but not ridiculous like the TR. So thats my gamble of the moment. I parked my TR as well, figure they will just blast them down soon anyways. CWs always seem to be void to this the most massive type of nerfs, all they did in that balance is move them from a medium range destroyer of everything to a close range destroyer of everything for pve and for pvp , made all those mad passives kill everyone.
I always liked DC though, so I dont mind main-ing it, Ill try to get everything for CW (artifact wise) and keep it at blue levels where I can and wait to see if they move RP price down to reasonable at some point or allow play time to be translated to rp , or something like that.
another problem , and I do not know if with other classes happens too, is that when the server is lagged, some "bonus" are not calculated at the time of the damage (mark for what i see). whereas gwf is a class with a very low base damage + some busts of 40/50% extra damage ...
go to the list of reasons why the base damage needs to be increased instead of proceeding with this project "clean slate" which has its damage increased through restricted feets (including sentinel) limiting the gameplay rather than individualize.
I can understand the simple and powerful appeal of the Hulk-like "sprint in, burst into big AoEs, start swinging away", but as someone who fights the GWFs, it's frankly really archaic. It's something mod2 GWFs would do when CWs, HRs, TRs, DCs were nothing like what they are now... not like how these opponent classes were much slower, had less dodges, hit weaker, attacked slower in those days.
Comparing the gradual evolution of classes between mod2 to current mod5, all the classes have been significantly rearranged towards efficiency, if not becoming straight-up powerful, but then the GWF still retains a very, very old style of fighting where it generally relies on random, wild swings of at-wills, and equipped with encounters which feel (from the opponent's view) very bad in efficiency. Generally slow activating, not too impressive utility, and sometimes the only redeeming factor being strange stuff (like cooldown reduction on power miss, or stuff like that).
In other words, IMO, when looking at you GWFs, from this side, it doesn't look like a problem with just powers, or how something needs buffed or not. Rather it feels like your whole class is stuck in this really inefficient, clumsy combat design that hasn't been changed since mod2. Oh sure, FotM powers/encounters may change, but the basic style of fighting is still the same. Compare that to how much HRs or TRs, or even DCs have changed.
IMO, you guys need a total class redesign from top to bottom, a total makeover of the feats that make up your three paths, like us TRs were redesigned.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
1. Resist damage: in time due to constant power creep (arpen/piercing) it became less and less and never got an update.
2. Medium CC role on a target: due high mobility and increase in deflect/healing for the rest, this role vanished.
3. Deal burst dmg: No longer possible due slow class animations and the increase in CC resistance.
4. Mobility: due to lower cds pushes that are way overused atm with no chance for a GWF/GF to defend against them.
Class only needs an update and not a redesign, also things like lifesteal/ap gain for HR, oneshot/ap gain for TR, repel/sunburst for dc/cw do need a fix as well.
Well you can certainly play that role in a DIFFERENT way I imagine. It's something more subtle than just stats, and hence from 'this side' it looks why both the devs and players are endlessly running at parallels.
It's like this. When a certain power changes even the simplest of things, like how fast it activates or animates, then while the stat itself hasn't changed much suddenly the overall efficiency increases dramatically -- the prime example in this case being TR Dazing Strike. The damage wasn't changed, neither was the daze duration -- except what used to be a power that'd rarely be even seen in PvP, is now one of the most powerful TR CCs in its arsenal. IMO GWFs are full of stuff like that. Something that requires the players' attention more than just discussing raw stats and stuff. The "DESIGN" of how the GWF fights. IMO it has room for improvement.
If the GWF players don't want to change anything, then well, its their preference, their choice.. but like said, as someone who would fight GWFs on the other side, a LOT of GWF tactics and powers seem quite limited in the first place. The best GWF players still make 100% use of what they are capable of, and they're deadly powerful players, that's for sure, but it seems that "what they are capable of" itself is limited by the class combat design in the first place, not necessarily by stats.
Keeping on tweaking with stats, IMO, would probably not give you guys the result you want. Just the same, the devs tried continuously tweaking with TRs, and it didn't work. Finally they realized they need simply a different design, something that worked more efficiently. Leaving out the TR=OP discussions from this post, simply, even if TRs are nerfed more, still the basic design change -- how we TRs fight, the "style" itself -- will remain changed, the three paths doing things different and more efficiently than the past mods where our options were so limited.
Better designs in all aspects, IMO, the GWFs need. They too clumsy right now, in every sort of possible way.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
1 - first the class dont work correctly in several critical aspects. I would like to see this first.
2 - I never pronounce me about rogues, but I do not see it as a healthy model for the game, honestly. the new dc looks like a satire of "balance". ridiculous like a m4 cw. sw only come to destroy pve. that is my personal opinion. if I knew these would be the buffs, I never would have supported it.
3 - I do not choose a class just for efficiency, but the concept. the efficiency should be given respecting this concept.
for example, I, zacazu, I would love if the devs add casting bars to all encounters of the class in order to be an additional damage magnifier. and these attacks consume stamina based on the charge time..
I could could run freely while casting a ibs, but if i dont have stamina to pay this attack, I get a penalty x proportional to the debt.
at first, it is not effective or complex. is vague inspiration dark souls, a really hard game. but I feel like a fighter that has the dilemmas to his fighting style, and not a fast dps whose the giant sword is merely illustrative. after all,is a good excuse for the previous low base damage. fast attack = low damage. the real heavy attack of gwf is slow and have a big tradeoff proportional to carry a big sword/heavy armor.
then we would have low ac sets that consume less stamina? the companions dilemmas? new boons choices? yes, all that. your choices and gameplays will bring more or less effectiveness. I do not want a "top damage burst" because I want to do all the content alone as suggested someone else in another topic. and definitely is not for lake of imagination. I want that Because matches to the phenotype of the class. this will have a price? ok, i pay.
I started no long ago. My friend said "roll a GWF Destroyer, they're amazing". He hadn't played one in a long time. He's got lots of toons. It is not amazing. This explains why he now keeps pushing me to use my "now-60" CW. My GWF is specced for DPS and has AoW with a 14K GS. Very squishy. Abysmal DPS, it's embarrassing.
Thats right. You'll never compete with CW, SW and co in DPS. They have superior AoE, you got AoE too as GWF, but thats
mainly Spinning Strike and Wicked Strike -> very slow.
Laz build is good cause it tries to focus on what the gwf CAN DO GOOD: Single Target DPS.
Also GWF is not as hard to play as CW and SW cause their skill order and timing is much more important since their main damage source are their encounters/dailies. GWF also can perfectionate his skillorder and timings, but failing to do so is not as punishing. Since your main dps comes from At-Wills probably followed by IBS - GWF is easier to play. The skill in playing a good GWF is keeping maximum Unstoppable uptime. This is easy. Just try to use IBS/Dailies/other Encounters/Doohickey when you run out of Determination that should fill the bar right up and you continue At-Will spam. The second and more important thing is the footwork. GWF CANNOT stand in red circles! You have to use your sprint or just normal walking to dance, while fighting. GWF is not a tank hes in playstyle nearly like a TR.
i like to play my GWF as a tank and it can be even more effective than a GF, only problem is hate generation:) Even if it doesnt seem as a hard class to play at first at the end game it is one of the hardest next to hr (looking at pvp), you just cant afford to spam skills and you are always setting traps for the opponents.
Main problem with GWF atm is that it needs gear, a lot of gear, to be competitive, while most others can start enjoying content with much much less.
Bollocks. TR deals twice as much single target damage and tanks much better, offers some decent utility. Tell me, what's better in a boss fight: a) +30% DR each time you dodge, b) 2 seconds dodge immunity? Don't bother answering, we all know the answer.
I lost the number of times I got my tanky sentinel GWF 1 shot by the eSoT boss trough sprint. Even though I had 35k hp and 43% DR back then. I lost the number of times I died multiple times when I walked on DoT AoEs, got rezed by soulforged and died again. All thanks to no dodge immunity. Same thing happens with trash mobs that hit me for 10-15k normal hits post mitigation. TR can dodge out of that, go into stealth, daze in aoe and kill them in seconds. I try to do the same with GWF and what happens is I get hit for half my HP, I go in unstoppable/try to run but die nevertheless. Unless: a) I get BiS gear with tons of lifesteal, b) someone else CCs the mob, c) someone else steals my aggro.
All in all, GWF's damage is inferior to other striker/controler classes, survivability is ****ty, can't keep aggro and utility is non-existent. Please don't you ever compare GWF to TR again, thanks.
I advise you to read what I wrote again. GWF excells at single target damage and builds mostly offensive like other dps classes, he doesnt have an immunity dodge and therefore is unique to use Footwork to dodge things. This gameplay is TR-like.
I never said GWF is better than TR.
I never said GWF is TR.
I never said GWF has more Utility he has barely any.
I never said GWF is tanky.
I did say (not in this thread) if you die to ESoT boss your a scrub and you should improve.
Lifesteal as of now is easiyl obtainable. Without even trying to stack it you have 1000 or more endgame. Add the option of ToD capstone boons or Dread Rings Endless Consumption = Voila, Damage gained as Hitpoints is not a problem for GWF in any way.
GWF has to be ahead of the group and can easily gain the hate-lead with Daring Shout. He is a GWF and that is not a Utility Class.
Student of the Swords Utility to debuff for the whole party was intentionally removed, the devs showed us that GWF is a "selfish" class
that excels greatly when paired WITH classes that have utility. (example is CW Furious Immolation/Arcane Singularity paired with GWF Spinning Strike/IBS or the buffs/debuffs GF and DC offer you.
I will continue to compare both classes, for the sake of analysing the meta and perfectionate my theory crafting.
I will even compare TR to all other classes not only GWF, if that makes you rage. I honestly don't care.
It is pretty much common knowledge that Sentinel is a more tankier route and therefore has less damage. This is not needed in PvE,
thats why Destroyer is superior. Surely you can enjoy playing Sentinel in PvE, the results will not be as striking though.
GF can be a great frontliner with a low amount of gear (14-18k) and provides far more utility. GWF doesn't offer comparable AoE like CW/SW and the AoE he has (Spinning Strike/Wicked Strike/ WeaponMasterSrike) is slow.
GF can render the whole party nearly immune since he has perfect aggro control and KV. Also he has access to a plenty of buffs.
I don't think its wise to compare PvE and PvP in skill cap.
If you did not archieve a high gear level yet, I don't think it is smart to judge.
Sry but as GWF we;ve just got a nerf for having too much AOE, it may not be your playstyle but there are plenty of gwf that are still rolling intimidation/executioner hybrid that has pretty much in all encounters heavy hitting aoes.
You want the gwf to be single target dmg dealer, is what you like to play and is good that you can do it.
On the other hand i like a different play style where i depend very little of my grp comp or their GS level and carry them when i have to, if there is a SW that can help me finish the job faster all the better, but i am going to finish it regardless ... i dont need a DC nor a GF or SW to do any dungeon.
I have 24k GS on my GWF and i have been around here since beta, i think is nice to learn from other experiences even if they are not our first go to choice...
the playstyle of rogue, if I'm still interacted, consistent an hit, run, back in stealth and hit very, very hard. and during this time, smoke bomb / etc do the job.
gwf is 100% offensively / mechanically made to never go back.
back means the loss damage. 3 sec out and bye, bye all the base class features of damage (wm/destroyer). AND this is not a little bonus. you have aways 30/40/50% over stacks/debuffs over a big <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> base damage.
There does not exist a parallel; there is a deformity made for... up the defensive ability of a dps after killed your defensive ability? that because.... to separete tank and dps sentinel receive intimidation and instigator a damage bonus based on stacks of damage taken?...
yeah zacazu, but instigators have defensive bonus to sprint to pvp and... aoe bonus for wicked strike? ok, you got the point.
the second point is: how many powers exceptionally single targets gwf have?
this early ejaculation of dev in trying to "balance" before to check the perfomance of these new monsters killed the class and the game.
ps: the damage of cws come to passives. historically and now mathematically cw is the most easiest class in the game. this discussion is no longer subjective. sw i dont know
TR hits and runs, GWF hits and keeps hitting with as little movement as possible. All his gameplay is focused on melee-range continuous combat. He can't risk losing his stacks and in turn damage / threat. Moreover, their dodge mechanics are completely different. How can you possibly say their gameplay is the same??
And if you call me a scrub in eSoT for taking the fall for the team then you must be one of those selfish scrubs who'd run around the boss when he's targeting you and get your team killed. In most cases, I can dodge in 90 degree radius around the boss in order not to get someone else killed and that requires lots of skill and luck (ping / sprint activating in time).
Besides, you obviously haven't played sentinel either. I with 9k+ power and the best loadout focused on tanking/generating threat (restoring strike, daring shout, come and get it) can't possibly generate enough threat to steal aggro from any dps focused class with much lower offensive stats. Another thing about sentinel vs destroyer is that sentinel leads in overall damage against a destroyer when his power is ~11-12k. And he doesn't need to stack that many buffs to start dealing damage. That equals in sentinel performing better in PvE at BiS level. Sorry to burst your bubble.
And please, you say 1000 lifesteal is easily obtainable in endgame. Thanks for proving the point that GWF is only playable when you get endgame equipment. While other classes are playable from level 1.
And if you say GWF is a selfish class then why does he perform the worst in everything he does, huh? Take your head out of your rear and look around. GWF is the worst class in PvE and 2nd worst class in PvP after SW.