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GWF changes in last patch
fuglymook
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 119 Arc User
What happened to the proposed changes that are included in the patch notes. They never appeared on the test shard and did not happen in yesterdays patch!
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What the hell?
"Hey GWFs could you ever stop QQ-ing for a second? You just were given a flat 10% more damage".
Flat? You need full stacks to have 10% more dmg.
Also, I feel that they're addressing the GWF issues from the wrong perspective. GWF needs damage and survivability increase as a whole and not trough capstones and stacks. Because:
All in all, if they only boost capstones then we're screwed... GWF needs a complete rework on at-wills, encounters and some feats. That's what we need.
Exactly. Unstoppable came with a very rewarding feeling, either for survability or damage. Now that's gone.
HR Stormwarden Trapper / Stormwarden Combat
GWF Swordmaster Destroyer
CW Master of Flame Thaumaturge / Spellstorm Oppressor
TR Master Infiltrator Executioner
SW Soulbinder Fury
If it is not working, sound off. If it is, shut the hell up or say thanks. There are other things that need work. But this is what they worked on now. Get over it.
I'll be clear. They messed up the class so bad since the start of mod4 up to module5, that like hell i'll say thank you for a small buff to destroyer which still does not bring it on par with other classes.
I do not thank the devs to destroy a class and then give meh small buffs to it.
All i can say is "not enough to fix the mess you did, work harder on it".
It's free2play and i am grateful to just be able to play the game, even though i donated enough to buy the game at least and play it considering the overall quality of the product.
But i won't say thanks for a candy when you just punched me in the ballz. Hope i give you the idea.
GWF class needs a serious rework. Cause the devs turned it into a mess.
Unstoppable, which is the class mechanic of GWFs, was ruined following the stupid QQ of bad players on forums. Double nerf on determination gain and DR was way too much and it was clear. Unstoppable right now is useless cause with buffs to other classes and DPS in general it does nothing to improve survivability. And does nothing to improve attack since it's easily kited even if you time it and activate it when you're close to the enemy.
Destro capstone counters itself. You need to build stacks during unstoppable, which means you need to spam at-wills, yet you have a 10% DPS buff on encounters which means you either use the 10% buff and build few stacks shooting your rotation during unstoppable, or you build your stacks with at-wills and then use your rotation out of unstoppable.
It's stupid and one buff pretty much exclude the other. Seriously?
Sentinel, as i said many times, at the DPS path (yeah, seriously) for PvP, with huge burst DPS through a couple of AoE utility encounters and a feat. Again: seriously?
Instigator is supposed to be a DPS/tank hybrid, yet the stacks are too short in duration for PvE, you are supposed to build them taking damage, yet you are squishier than both Sentinel (which has unstoppable buff and DR buff on capstone) and destroyer (which has determination gain buff on capstone). Instigator is supposed to tank through a 10% more deflect on sprint. For the last time: Seriously?
Not talking about the fact that base DPS is lower than most other classes and survivability is now lower than most other classes cause GWFs have no immunities and piercing damage/ glyphs eat through our supposedly superior DR with no effort. Plus ArP stat now stacked over 2k easily thanks to boons and new equipment.
I will not say thanks to devs for ruining my main class and then give a candy that still does not fix the issues THEY created with their nonsense changes.
Deep gash does not build stacks if i recall well. It was fixed with a patch. Plaguefire still does. If i am correct. But not sure.
Yeh ok, I donated WAY more than you... but whatever (just saying, since that seems to be an issue for you.) My main has been GWF since beta, too. But I don't feel that crippled. I feel a bit robbed, but since I can't MAKE them give it back, and 45000 pvp'ers would cry if they did.... I say thank ya.
Some *****ing needs to be done... but you ***** too much.
(If you are destroyer path you see value. If you are not destroyer, it does not affect you... move along) You painted one bit of text red.... as if it were more important than the rest. It was not. YOU focused on it. They did a specific fix. It was good for Destroyer. It was not for anyone else.
If you are not a destroyer... why the hell are you posting in this thread???
This. There are, generally speaking, in other games, patches that bring some very slight changes but which can be useful, can help with certain builds, can help in certain fights. Here the alleged buff is n/a. It's like "10% more damage reduction when the nearest foe is 300 ft away".
Proud Officer of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild
now up on Neverwinter Online, member of Ordo Obscuri Domini, Italian Guild
45 it's the real number.
its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> good.
If you build your character so you can lead the charge into battle, you will see your effectiveness jump. Other classes will still outdamage us, but by playing this way, we are far from useless in a party. Would I still like to see a bit of a boost in damage? Yes. But at least the devs are slowling giving us points in the right direction.
I believe it still does build stacks. I have not tested this, but Lazalia's build guide still uses this trick. And as hardcore in pursuing DPS as Lazalia is, that feat point would be somewhere else if it didn't work.
Your stats are similar to mine, and we have both penalized ourselves by having higher hp's which makes getting unstoppable more difficult. The reason we function effectively is that we're massively overgearing ourselves compared to the content.
I'm going to repeat something I said in the patch thread that applies:
But testing these buffs in practice today, I feel the reduction of stacks / Increase of determination for damage Caused the gwf look like a nice class in the alpha phase. Have a good potential, but everything is very confused and still limited.
for example, only the mark + t2 SENTINEL feet, which was a borrowed mechanics (gf, the defender class), does 2x the damage that the encounter specialized in increase the damage of the class and buffed by a T.3 destroyer feet. and is not limited to atwill/encounters. is insane!
Among other problems, check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKMgghnsIlI
the class is a mixture of bad/"wtf" powers+ good powers disconnected/nosense and the "spiritual" battle between a multiplicative damage bonus of feets versus the multiplicative reduction damage of aoe powers.
Just to give a bit more perspective on what I described, I did a CN the other night. My buddy, a gwf with legendary wrath sword, greater terror, and the dread legion armor set, (he is also an instigator, btw) which puts his gs around 19k or so, hung with a cw, my sw and a high end TR in damage. He was second to the cw by the time we hit the boss. It was like 23mil, 20 mil, 18mil 18mil or something like that at the boss door with him being the 20mil and the cw being the 23. We also had a healing dc with us.
He then put on battle fury and used wicked swings and not so fast during the boss fight, to help buff us a little and debuff anything that came near him.
As an SW, my damage jumped to second place to the cw during that fight. So obviously an sw is one of the best high health boss killers, if not the best in the game. However, no one greatly eclipsed anyone else in damage or effectiveness.
If anything, having the gwf run ahead to gain aggro on the mobs during the fight was very helpful since they would swarm him, and then i and the cw could really punish the groups while the tr was able to take down any higher health outliers. It really functioned as a perfect party and we swept through there in a nice amount of time with the only hiccup happening at the final boss when a few of us got slammed by the claw attacks. Minor set back and destroyed it on the second try.
So, I agree that a gwf at similar gear scores is at a disadvantage most of the time. You have to take into account that gwf gs is inflated more than other classes. a 19k gs gwf is more like a 16 or 17 gs other class based on how our stats are enhanced with some of our feats. However, in an add heavy dungeon, with similar gs people in the group, and gwf who plays aggressively can totally hang with other classes and, through debuffs and buffs that they can add, along with through gathering mobs together for the heavier hitters to take them down faster, gwf is great to have.
We are not flashy, but we are effective. The same guy I just mentioned, when I asked him if he would like to see more damage on a gwf said: "well, if gwf had the same damage as a cw, why would anyone be a cw? Are you telling me that you wouldn't take the same damage with a LOT of added survivability?"
So, if they were to boost the gwf much more, all of a sudden, we make other classes less important. Same thing for a gf. If all of a sudden we can survive and tank anything while also doing massive damage, what place does a gf have in the game? Who would choose a no damage pure tank over a damage tank?
Just some things to think about.
TL/DR: Similar gs gwfs CAN hang with cws and sws in some situations if built properly and played aggresively. Their added survivability over those classes is also nice. Also, if too much is boosted on gwf, it makes other classes obsolete, and we have now traded one minor problem for another.
now lets talk seriously. gwf really need some buffs
Dude, the thread title is "GWF changes" not "destroyer changes. Plus it's quite stupid to say a GWF player can't comment changes to the class unless he play that very same path? So i should not comment sentinels?
Not to be rude, but what you wrote makes no sense. This said, i have been playing GWF since 1 year, i've been sentinel, destroyer and now instigator, i'm quite entitled to post my opinion about GWF changes.
I'll repeat my point: they messed up the class and i pointed out the BIG contraddictions and nonsense changes they introduced in the whole class. Destroyer capstone itself, as i explained, works in a way where one buff excludes the other. Unless in 4 to 8 seconds you can do your rotation and also build 10 stacks of capstone while sprinting to avoid being killed in end-game dungeons such as the Temple of Tiamat cause your unstoppable gives not enough DR to stay inside the groups of mobs and tank the damage.
I'll say thank you when they bring back the class to being a solid choice and with mechanics that make sense. Right now, it is not. After one year spent playing it they ruined the class, so i'll say thank you when they fix what they ruined.
CW is a ranged DPS. GWF is a melee AoE DPS class. GWF destroyer is not "more survivable" than a CW for the simple reason that a GWF is SUPPOSED to be able to stay inside a group of mobs, being hit by them while dealing melee AoE damage. A CW is supposed to CC and DPS AoE the mobs from far and pretty much never get a scratch or avoid damage through teleport immunity (which GWF does not have, since the shift mechanic is a CC immunity only and increased DR, not immunity).
So the choice is between AoE DPS in melee and AoE DPS in range, with different mechanics which should adapt to one's playstyle.
If as you say, GWF should be a "survivable" mediocre DPS, you'd have what we got so far: CWs dominating PvE cause they can CC and DPS down everything without getting a scratch, so they don't give a shlt if a GWF can "survive" more (which is not since, as i explained above, GWF gets hit a lot more since it is a melee fighter).
Or may be you guys do not play the same game and didn't notice how in the last year the "squishy" CWs who need more DPS cause a GWF is more "tanky", could perfectly stack CWs to make runs faster, just CCing to death huge groups of adds in no time.
GWF destroyer DPS spec needs the very same DPS as any other DPS spec, with survivability linked to unstoppable to be able to fight in MELEE range like they do.
It's not rocket science yet most players seems to be unable to understand the difference between a ranged DPS class who can CC a lot from a distance, and a melee DPS class who needs to fight in melee range and get hit by multiple mobs simultaneusly while he fights.
I normally main a 18K Renegade CW that I've played since beta, which is geared at a comparable level to my 19k GWF (ie: r8's, legendary artifact weapons). If I let a comparable geared GWF run ahead of me, his damage will be comparable. If I run ahead his damage will be but a fraction of mine (because all the lowbies will be dead). If I set my Renegade up with a Storm Spell/Feated Chilling Presence build I will easily double the GWF, provide neither runs ahead.
But the big point is as a CW, you bring damage and utility (High Vizier debuff, Nightmare Wizardy, Chaos Magic, Ray of Enfeeblement). As a IV/Destroyer GWF, I bring a Mark (I don't remember any other party buff/utility for IV/Dest). With a SW, it's actually worse: a DPS SW is amazing damage and some utility. Only real advantage a GWF has is being able to run to the mobs faster.
Mainly why I wrote as much as I did to explain things is I see gwf trying to be something they are not. So many go running after a single mob during a battle with many mobs around. This is not making use of our abilities and is why many people complain about lack of damage. Of course we're not going to do well if we spend our time fighting 1 thing at a time. That's not what we're built for. But you see it ALL the time. Sure Strike should be saved for when there are only big targets left or boss fights. Yet that is the skill I see gwf using most often in just about any situation.
As far as the balancing goes, I just wanted to put out another perspective. I do find my gwf frustrating and wish it had some boosts. I'm just not sure what form those boosts should take, and I wanted to demonstrate that it isn't quite as bad as some people make it out to be. I wanted to offer some suggestions for how to maximize effectiveness, and I hope some people gained a different way to look at what they currently do and how they can improve. I know that people who have great gear can do amazing things as gwf if they push the envelope. But we shouldn't get down if a sw or tr beats us in damage during something like elol where it is all single target. That dungeon is not tailor made for us.
Honestly, get rid of the paingiver chart, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. We would all survive most of the time and feel good about ourselves. (except maybe during the cleric section of tiamat. god i hate that part)
I just got the 7th bonus with my SW and now I'm farming with my GWF but it feels so weak in comparison having both fully maxed, during a decent tiamat run (3 rounds) my SW does up to 55m in dmg while my GWF can barely reach 20m.
Very good points.. If both classes are max geared and difference is 55m:20m dmg, just imagine how worse geared SW (not only SW) can still beat GWF in terms of dmg. But this isnt only dmg competition, GWF as a melee class has very hard life compared to any ranged class.
As somebody wrote before, GWF has too much pretty useless powers and feats. We have 2 paragons and 3 epic feat trees, it should offer variety of builds but.. you know.
Also i dont understand who is creating armor sets (well not only armor sets, some other stuff is strange too). So far the best PvE armor set is OLD Avatar of War with power/recovery stat boost. Not much creativity. (but i like SW AD/FI sets
i think u cannot compar gwf with SW, cause SW still has broken feats that multi procc like our old deepgash.
and about the sets,yea we need better sets.
Step 1: Total elimination of aoe penalty in 100% of the powers/transfer (and elimination) of the mark bonus (20 + 15%) to the base damage. (strength / heroic feets).
Step 2: "reworks/ buffs in class features, with the primary objective is enabling destroyer for 3 trees / steadfast determination serve to something.
Step 3: Revaluation of encounters / reaping strike. destroyers, my personal priority, need 2 or 3 solid aoe burst (over x conditions).
Step 4: possible increase in radius /range of aoe powers. BUT if the initial animation of spinning strike had the effect of CGI. this would solve some "historical problems" of the class.
Step 5: fix Dailys: battle cry of the savage advanced (I think) and slam dont have critical damage. are not emergency alterations, but is a big wasting potencial
* after all these changes are put in place, if still necessary, changes in trees based on descriptive concept. what are the "tactical maneuvers" of the instigator? gain stacks while running against a Aimed shot? imagine his boxing teacher saying -"dont dodge, dont block, run against the punch. the pain will increase your strength".