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10kgs dps test, can a 10kgs character pull their weight in tiamat?
charononus
Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
Ok, so some background. The Tiamat fight only requires a 10kgs to enter. There has been lots of debate on if the requirement needs to be higher. I decided to try to pull some data collection and math into this. My personal view when I started this is that a 10kgs player couldn't put out enough dps. We'll examine the data and see if that was correct.
I've been told that each head has 16.4 million HP. I haven't verified this myself but I'm going with that number. If this is wrong please correct me and we can adjust the math.
Tiamat has five heads so the total HP that needs to go away is:
16400000 * 5 = 82000000
So 82 million HP needs to be burnt away in 6 mins.
This is 82000000 / 25 = 3280000 per person
so 3280000 / 6 = 546667 damage per minute which is 546667 /60 = 9111 damage per second.
So I took my SW and started removing gear till I hit 10kgs, well actually 10.5kgs. I removed my p. vorpal, and one piece of my diabloist set so that I wouldn't have the 4pc set, then removed gear till I hit 10kgs. I did not summon an ioun stone, because a 10kgs player likely does not have an ioun stone. I also removed my wild hunt rider as I felt that it would be unlikely that a 10kgs player would have one. I left my erinyes and dancing blade though, because while they only totaled a 13% increase in crit severity that comes close enough to equal the 10k player having a lesser vorpal. I did not remove the ioun stone or my dire wolf companion as neither has a passive that would increase dps.
I then started attacking a training dummy with HoB, WB, DT, KF, and FoP. I purposely did not use any artifacts active effect.
To my surprise my dps was 10110 dps.
This is higher than the 9111 dps that is the minimum needed to pull your weight. This means that under optimal conditions a 10kgs player can pull their weight. I was wrong.
Now it's very very close, and on a class that has one of the higher single target dps. However it does mean that if the group plays perfectly a 10kgs player can contribute fully. Because of this I have to now change my views that the GS requirement needs to be raised because the requirement is only the minimum where success is possible but very difficult.
The video of me performing this test can be found here http://youtu.be/g0vhaA7Yn7E
(I'm on a slow upload connection at the moment and it's likely to take a few hours for the video to be uploaded.)
I've been told that each head has 16.4 million HP. I haven't verified this myself but I'm going with that number. If this is wrong please correct me and we can adjust the math.
Tiamat has five heads so the total HP that needs to go away is:
16400000 * 5 = 82000000
So 82 million HP needs to be burnt away in 6 mins.
This is 82000000 / 25 = 3280000 per person
so 3280000 / 6 = 546667 damage per minute which is 546667 /60 = 9111 damage per second.
So I took my SW and started removing gear till I hit 10kgs, well actually 10.5kgs. I removed my p. vorpal, and one piece of my diabloist set so that I wouldn't have the 4pc set, then removed gear till I hit 10kgs. I did not summon an ioun stone, because a 10kgs player likely does not have an ioun stone. I also removed my wild hunt rider as I felt that it would be unlikely that a 10kgs player would have one. I left my erinyes and dancing blade though, because while they only totaled a 13% increase in crit severity that comes close enough to equal the 10k player having a lesser vorpal. I did not remove the ioun stone or my dire wolf companion as neither has a passive that would increase dps.
I then started attacking a training dummy with HoB, WB, DT, KF, and FoP. I purposely did not use any artifacts active effect.
To my surprise my dps was 10110 dps.
This is higher than the 9111 dps that is the minimum needed to pull your weight. This means that under optimal conditions a 10kgs player can pull their weight. I was wrong.
Now it's very very close, and on a class that has one of the higher single target dps. However it does mean that if the group plays perfectly a 10kgs player can contribute fully. Because of this I have to now change my views that the GS requirement needs to be raised because the requirement is only the minimum where success is possible but very difficult.
The video of me performing this test can be found here http://youtu.be/g0vhaA7Yn7E
(I'm on a slow upload connection at the moment and it's likely to take a few hours for the video to be uploaded.)
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Not saying that statement cannot be true, but please try and replicate this using a GWF
Honestly that was part of the point. If under the best case scenario it can be done by 10kgs, I'm ok with 10kgs. Remember in the actual fight there would also be buffs and debuffs going off to help weaker classes hit this level.
I beg to differ, CWs are. Since the start of the times.
WTB Class Reroll please
2nd... it takes time to travel from one dragon to another...
3rdly... 10k GS players are not invincible.. they could get smashed in a hit and die...
4thly... Some players with connectivity / graphical lag could be under-performing...
We are not beating dummy targets, the dragon actually hurts low GS players....
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Yup but if played perfectly it can be done. That's the point. To succeed at minimum entry requirements you should have to play perfectly, and have it get easier from there. That's my design philosophy anyway. From that standpoint it looks like 10k is the spot where it could be done if every player played absolutely perfectly.
1) If get 1 shot by mobs = no dps
2) If can survive mobs = not enough dps
If you going in tiamat with a group of pre-form team
which consist of 3 dps(cc control and dps) /1 tank(buff/debuff) / healer(buff/debuff) and everyone is doing perfectly maybe.
But you get random ppl right now. so it possibly not doable. You need coordination to do stuff properly ,but not with pugs
5th 10k GS players are usually new and got no clue what's going on around.
WTB Class Reroll please
Though even if in theory they could contribute just about the average needed, I still recommend raising the cap. No way should one be allowed to skip all grouped content before heading towards something that needs more cooperation. Plus tiamat should feel insulted that lostmauth needs 14k gs. I just don't understand the defence of lowing the gs cap of newer, higher end content. It pretty much destroys all of the previous content of the game.
The lack of being able to pre-make a party is true and a massive problem and flaw in the game. It's probably the worst design flaw in the game.
Skipping the content does also feel, odd and bad. I can't deny that. I just no longer can say that it's impossible for 10k to contribute. My previous view was that it needed 13kgs, however I don't feel I can continue that argument at this point.
edit*
At least at this point no matter how you feel about the data, any future arguments can be backed up with some data. It's no longer making a guess based on what you feel. I welcome anyone to continue this with other classes so we can get even more data. Hard data leads to much more structured debate.
Due to the fact, that you had to gear down, I would say, that you had the perfect stats for your goal. Thats not realistic for a 10k player trying to push his GS.
As some other ppl said before. SW has one of the highest single target dps in the game. You would not be able to do dmg all the time, due to lags, mobs, AoE, death, time spent running from point A to point B. Even a perfect player would not teleport from the clerics to the head and would have to deal with mobs and AoE. What about resistance of the puppets and the dragon, are they the same?
Thanks for your test, but imo your conclusion is very theoretical and wont hold up to a real fighting situation. Did you concider, that SW has almost no CC, so your contribution in the cleric phase would be very low, due to the fact, that you would die often. A 10k GWF or GF would not be able to tank the adds and your groups damage would be to low, to kill them fast. You would have to stack CC for the cleric phase.
True.
So I now have to ask, are you trying to present that it is a skill issue with these players? Usually when I see 10-13k GS players, their stats aren't exactly optimized and they are using wrong skills.
Right now, I'd take a warlock over a CW. PVE CW is still horribly overpowered though.
And I'm also sure Chemboy is going to chime in any second to say that the game design did favor CWs (puntable mobs, effective aoe spots).
Unfortunately this test only shows 10K GS SW can deal 10k DPS on dummy target, it has nothing to do with Tiamat
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
If the GS limit would be 20k, the fight would be as unforgiving as you said, there would not be so many bugs causing you to fail, I would agree. It should be end content.
As it is the game goes like 'here is super hard end content for 10k GS players, but you might take your big brother to help you out. Dont bother to ask him, we will just force him to do it'.
It is important to note that BAD GEAR is not the same as BAD BUILD or BAD PLAYER.
A GOOD player with a GOOD build can, even with BAD gear, do well in Tiamat.
Actually it shows a high level SW who purposely downgears to hit 10k GS can do 10k DPS on a Target Dummy.
Here i'll one up you:
10.5k DPS, really 10.4k DPS cus I forgot this character doesn't even have an augment pet, his little wolf was attacking the whole time for a whopping 98dps.
This is my 10k gs DC who I played just long enough to unlock the DC artifact the last 2x experience weekend, who is missing 70% of his enchants and the rest are r3/r4s whatever I found leveling up.
Can a 10k GS person meet the criteria you've layed out? Sure. Your premise is invalid though.
6 minutes Tiamat time either assumes a 4th and some change round of heads, ie perfect play during the Cleric phase (basically impossible even when the party is mostly experienced 18k+ gs players), *OR* you are assuming 3 rounds of tiamat, and you are assuming players can instantly teleport between the clerics to the heads, and teleport between each head. This is a huge fault in your logic.
So assuming 3 rounds you have, at most, 4.5 minutes of tiamat combat time, just from travel, assuming you have not also aggro'd demons while traveling (for the non-dodge classes) or died due to breath weapon attacks in transit, etc. Otherwise you have even less time.
So you actually need 12.2k DPS with perfect play. IE you need 22% more players than you are allotted in tiamat if they are all 10k gs.
But the reality is, the problem with 10k GS players isn't their GS, it's not even their damage. It's that they are brand new players and are lucky to be alive and doing anything for more than 20% of the fight. They are brand new players, they shouldn't be in tiamat.
Brand new players are the only 10k players who exist, everyone else who hit 60 more than a week ago is higher than 10k gs.
That is what people have a problem with. It's not that they are terribly undergeared and do no damage. It's that they have no business being there to begin with.
Even bot's nowadays running around in lvl 24 greens are approaching 10k gs and they never equip anything, ever. It is impossible to be 10k and not be a complete new player, probably started the game the day before yesterday (well, 20 hours played for a brand new player, 15 for someone who's run through the content before, and 7-8 on a 2x exp weekend).
Tiamat fight has no prerequisites. You can farm tiamat the moment you hit level 60. days before you've unlocked MC or VT, weeks before you've unlocked LOL or SOT. a month before you've unlocked IWD and your class artifact (ie your 2nd artifact). I haven't checked it yet, but I honestly doubt there is even a 10k GS requirement. I think it's only lvl 60.
That being said, tiamat is way too easy. I am thinking that with premade grps you can kill all heads in only 2 min:)
If you did, your results are flawed. Guessing by your other posts I would think, that you have a legendary weapon, that is ~7% more base damage + the at will buff. Add a leg. belt, +4% base dmg. Substract 11% base dmg and you would have 8.997,9 dps. This would be a fail, even with 'perfect' conditions.
You are quite detailed about your setup, exept the question about artefact equipment. If you answered this question before, I am sorry, I did not see it. As it is, your test results are, at best, highly theoretical and, at worst, wrong.
It should be end game content that only 14k and up should be able to get into. It has taken emphasis away from other important aspects of the game in terms of people learning their characters through the other campaigns and completing somewhat difficult, fun dungeons like MC and VT.
Why are shores and elol gained only after progressing deep into a campaign and yet Tiamat is open to anyone? Why is iwd only open to characters who have earned 3 boons in at least one other campaign and yet you can enter Tiamat as soon as you hit 60? This is a major flaw in the game's design. Perhaps the largest flaw of any other.
I don't think they will fix it, but it was a huge mistake, and after the terrible non-dps fest that was my attempt at Tiamat last night, I don't know if I'll go back for quite a while.
The 2 test provided as proof were made with DPS specs and in the first test, the SW probably has most of the boons, some of them increase you DPS without affecting you GS.
Let's see what those 2 test would show with a diff spec.
1st test was done with a Hellbringer Fury SW, which has the best single target DPS in the game. A Hellbringer Temptation SW will lose Creeping Death, Murderous Flames, Killing Curse and Executioner's Gift, that's -4750 DPS, meaning that the same SW with a diff spec will only have 5360 DPS. And if the Temp SW is Soulbinder instead of Hellbringer, that's an additional 10%-20% DPS loss, resulting in less than 5k DPS.
2nd test is a DO Debuff/DPS DC. Most DCs are either Debuff/Buff or Buff/Heal specced. The Buff/Heal spec has pretty much 0 DPS and will also make everyone lag, so not only will it not have enough DPS it will also lower everyone else's DPS. Let's say the Debuff/Buff DC uses the same encounters as in the test and has the same level of Terror enchant as the toon in the test, it will still loose the DPS from Fire of the Gods, which is -4k DPS, resulting in ~6.5k DPS. But, most Debuff/Buff DCs are AC's and don't use Daunting Light, so in reality a Debuff/Buff DC will have ~4k DPS, but since you're providing a DPS boost to everyone in your vicinity, the DPS is irrelevant in case of a Debuff/Buff DC.
Also, as other's have pointed out, you can't DPS for 6 minutes straight, because you have to dodge, someone dies, and you lose 10-15 sec at the start of each phase, waiting for the deadly aura to disappear (unless you want to bug it and run in sooner). Also, if you're doing the zerg way, you're losing time running from one dragon head to another.
All of the above taken into account, and considering that most runs waste a lot of time on clerics for various reasons so you only have 3 tries, you'll end up with ~4 minutes of actual combat. Oh, and sometimes one of the heads get beaten under 10% resulting it to come back at 25%, which is an extra 2.5m HP that needs to be DPS'd down.
Let's recalculate the needed DPS. 16.4m HP/head, 5 heads, 1 head gets comes back at 25% 1 time, 4 minutes of actual combat time, 20 DPS toons, 5 non-DPS toons. Let's pretend the non-DPS toons have 0 DPS, since more of then than not, you'll have more than 5 non-DPS toons, you'll have lag, people AFKing and dying.
Total HP: 16.4m*5 + 2.5m = 84.5m
DPS needed: 84.5m / (20 * 4 * 60) = 17600 DPS
So a more realistic min DPS is 17.6k which is a lot more than a 10k toon can achieve.
This still didn't take into account a lot of variables, which means the actual min DPS required is even higher, and we're talking about single target DPS here.
Your forgetting a whole bunch of things. First off, a 10K character won't be able to take any of the hits from the adds or breath attacks. There is a big difference banging away at a training dummy compared to an active encounter that occasionally stuns and has mobs that can hit for 25K a pop.
Next you are forgetting that you need to finish off all the heads in one round. This involves transitioning from one head to another. Again, not the same as bashing away at an unmoving target. It's not quite the same as evenly spreading it over 6 minutes. A 10k GS player most likely doesn't have Rank 7+ darks and will most likely not move fast enough from one head to the next.
The test was to figure out of it is even theoretically possible under best-case conditions for a 10k character to do enough damage to beat Tiamat. That's all. There were simplifying assumptions involved which were acknowledged.
Yes, in a reality, characters need to do significantly more DPS than 10k in order to protect the clerics and burn down the heads rapidly enough. We know.
To the nay-sayers: It seems like most of the reactions are saying "We need a minimum ping to enter or a minimum level of clue..." and, somehow, GS is the best proxy you can find for that? I think the need for a minimum clue level is starting to look more and more like the best argument for needing the ability to form premade raids.
Yes, there are simplifying assumptions here. But, it is not at all clear the assumptions run against this test. Buffs/De-buffs and the value of being a buff-based build seem to lower the minimum solo DPS needed to carry one's weight. And, the issues about time or the cleric phase contribution? Those make no sense to me. If you are not getting to a head (even white or black) just as it becomes targetable, you're doing it wrong. And, if people would stop standing right on top of the clerics, all you need to be effective there is the ability to kite. Yes, you won't be able to pull the mass off a GF standing on the cleric, but that GF should have been standing away waiting for a mob pull - who's the non-contributor there? Helpful hint: all those mobs drop aggro completely when the phase changes. You do not actually have to kill any of them if you are a kite-master and have enough brains to see when the phase change animation is starting.