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Is there an unwritten looting law?
amungusp
Member Posts: 13 Arc User
Hi
Yesterday i got kicked from a DD random party for, as I understand it, choosing Need on a class specific purple item.
Not a word in chat had discussed the matter. Later on I was in another party and another player chose need again on purple class specific item and sure enough a vote came up for kicking him.
If there is loot rules that wants the side-step the by game built in ones, there need to be a discussion in the party first imho.
Kicking ppl without a word of explanation is extremely rude.
Yesterday i got kicked from a DD random party for, as I understand it, choosing Need on a class specific purple item.
Not a word in chat had discussed the matter. Later on I was in another party and another player chose need again on purple class specific item and sure enough a vote came up for kicking him.
If there is loot rules that wants the side-step the by game built in ones, there need to be a discussion in the party first imho.
Kicking ppl without a word of explanation is extremely rude.
Post edited by amungusp on
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is not a rule but common sense
If it was common sense there wouldn't be a need option.
Communicate with your party beforehand to agree on looting rules. This is not a single-player game, this is an MMO.
Need has the same expected value, slightly higher variance, and is completely enforceable with game mechanics. The higher expected value is the trade-off for allowing people exclusive access to items they could actually use.
Greed is, in fact, the exact opposite of common sense. The only reason to insist on greed is to bring drama into your life.
Ok just to clear all the bs that people are talking here, all dungeons is not greed runs. The loot rules are to be made clear to everybody before joining the dungeon, and if they fail to mention it, then ask what the loot rule is for the set run. Most pug dungeon is not greed run and is actually need runs, because not aforementioned agreement was made when you join. If you all a agree to a greed run while you are in a pug, that is different.
There is no set rule in this game about greed, the people telling you that is greedy and want to bs you. If there was only greed only the devs would have done so. But it is important to ask what the loot rules is for set run.
When the "x" person kick the person while no agreement has been made, you can report people for abusing vote kick, this is actually a very serious offense and people need to start realizing that. So if you see someone kicked, take a print screen from the people in that party and report them for abusing vote kick.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
They'll say that "needing" is bad and that kicking you for doing so is right, even if no rules were set, but don't belive them. Those are either greedy individuals who think their need for few salvage RAD is more important than your need for gear, or poor souls who belived this nonsense.
Sadly, it is so widespread, that it is hard to find need run sometimes, since people won't run with you hearing you want to need stuff.
Players that have been playing since beta, especially from Mindflayer shard, would probably never Need on an item whether it's purple, blue or green, unless it was a BoP item, or if someone else starts Needing on them first. This was due to a common unwritten rule from CN runs, where all epics are to be Greed'ed, and shards etc to be Need'ed (if you want them).
I hope that clears up where this mentality came from. So as others have said, if unsure, agree on what the loot rules is before starting the run with the party.
Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
CN runs... people running those in most cases already had all gear they wanted, so yeah, greed made more sense there.
The problem with mentality we currently have is, even if you want to need, you'd have to greed out of fear of being kicked out or because "GREEEED" runners managed to convince you it is something bad.
In other words, greed is more often than not forced upon you even if you don't want it.
pretty much this
i was inactive for a few months on neverwinter and came back to this greed mentality in dungeons. nobody says a thing about need/greed, some people get upset over a need, and sometimes nothing happens when someone needs after greed is established. in fact, the purple drops from dragon skirmish/dungeon has given me as much as 400k at once but nobody really gets upset about a need since it's the last drop anyways and a need is EXPECTED on those kinds of drops.
personally i don't care about need/greed since there is a 24k rough ad cap. you kinda have to....not play in order to be so dramatic over a purple drop. i can somewhat understand if it's 1 of those accessories or even arty belts that can rake in a lot of ad on auction house, but that's it.
One thing to consider: Even if you plan on using a drop from a boss, it is often a smarter move to sell the drop anyway and wait to get the item from the chest. For instance, consider the Avatar of War Greaves, it is currently selling for about 350,000 AD on the market, which is a considerable amount of cash for many people. Even if you are a GWF in need of those boots it would make more sense for you to sell them for 350k and keep running FH until you get a BoP pair from the end chest. Which means that everyone in the party should be allowed to roll on the item as well, because selling it is the most logical decision and it is only fair for all people to get a chance on the roll.
That said, if someone speaks up at the beginning of the run and states their desire to roll on a specific item if it drops, I typically have no problem with it. Just speak up first. And do not assume that everyone sees things the same way you do.
(having a well established loot policy is imperitive for when a hard to find artifact drops, plan accordingly)
I would say that people that hit the "Need" button on an item that they will not use and already have (or had) are the actual "Greedy" ones, not the people that are running the mission and simply wanting a chance at making some AD.
If I know that I do not have a chance at rolling on the expensive items that drop (in a PUG) then I have no incentive to run the mission in a PUG. I freely give up my opportunity to roll "Need" on an expensive item that drops for my class because I am only looking to sell it, I think it is reasonable to ask the same of others.
Again, if you are after a specific item, simply say so from the beginning. Most people (myself included) are pretty open minded to people trying to gear up, and the vast majority of us can sympathize with the multitude of runs that may be required to get that item. If you say something first I think you have a good chance of getting the group to agree to letting you have the item *if* it drops.
I also expect people will "Need" on a BoP item that drops for their class. If they are kind enough to "Greed" it I am appreciative, but I have no ill will towards them if they need. (After all it is not worth that much in salvage anyway).
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
I never choose Need on my class items and always watch the loot rolls so noone steals a deserved item for party. Claiming all the loot just as your own is low.
WTB Class Reroll please
I agree with these sentiments.
But let me repeat myself: ASK! COMMUNICATE! Ask the party which loot rules they want to go with. This is not a singleplayer game, its an MMO. Learn to play with others.
Deciding you are more important than the four other party members is being greedy.
That's not an opinion. It can not be argued against any more than if the sun rises in the east.
Greed is better called "want" or "roll" and need would be better labeled as "That's mine!"
If you roll need you can never lose to a greed roll.
When a person needs they are not getting two rolls for the loot or an advantage in the roll in any way but are rather putting their roll as more valuable than all greed rolls. This means rolling need on a class item will guarantee you that item if you are the only player in the party of a certain class.
In most cases community based groups prefer greed runs as it gives every person equal chance at the loot which can actually be sold for a profit. However when using the queue system, LFG or some other purely random group set-up people may not default to greeding as most guilds and community groups do.
This is when the communication comes in. It's never a bad idea to ask what the loot rules are when you first start the dungeon. At the very least I tend to look at the rolls of people and react accordingly especially on epic drops.
If you communicate you won't have a problem unless you are like some players that can't grasp there are five players in a dungeon and they are not there as part of a charity event unless they say otherwise. If you communicate and the rules are decided on (by the majority) you can either abide by them or leave the party.
Actually wouldn't need will have the same expected value only if the class population has uniform distribution ?
There is higher chance for some classes to be with the same class in the party..
But even with the same expected value for drop, the expected value of the AD value is not the same.
One can take the current prices for t2 on the AH and calculate how many runs on average it will take to gear a class from 0 gear (blues) to full t2, normal weapon enchant & lesser SF, testing the 3 'styles' people needing to bind (no idea why someone will do it ) needing to sell and always greed. (maybe search the forums, about half year ago it would have taken DC/TR about 2.5 times the runs to get the same AD value as CW)
Two things i find most amazing each time this argument pops (and it does a lot).
1. There is always lots of EEE in greed. Looks like adding more 'ee's will reinforce the argument or can replace the calculations I wrote above.
2. People somewhat stuck on the words, now replace the need (shift+1) option with the label greed,
because = "I'm a greedy _insert_curse_word_here and don't care about anyone in my party and will have that item no matter what."
replace greed (shift+2) with the label need = "I need that item to sell/wear or what not, and so i want to roll on it"
And pass stays...
Now we have a system where the numbers match the words..
( not specifically to the op or quote: )
A person can agree to greed runs or disagree, but as many others said, kicking without telling anything shows the level of community.
Joining a party and not asking shows the level of communication..
Rolling on a loot without looking what others rolled when not sure what the loot rules also rude..
If someone want to run some specific type please state so, you want need only, make a party, even in LFG poeple write greed/need when searching or making party, this ways everyone can all join what we want and no need of this posts and drama
And please, if you don't like greed runs, complaining about what/how people prefer to run (starting with the grreeeeeeed and going much lower - search the greed-need topic here on the forums or better 'the can' ) wont help. As I said, make a party 'need-only' and gl,hf (just say it is such, especially in /legit).
I would say you have it backwards. People who detest "greed runs" are actually often stuck on the words more than anything else so people try to explain to them that the words do not match the effect.
This is the first game I ever encountered a Need/Greed System so when I first started I assumed need was "want" and greed was "that's mine!" especially as a D&D fan. I've played many sessions of Pen and Paper D&D where people in the party truly do greed on items by finding it when nobody is looking and either hide it or roleplay they always had it but never told anybody.
I spent the first few weeks needing on everything because "I don't like being greedy." It's not explained anywhere in the game what Need and Greed means so people go with the definitions they know without realizing that rolling need is the option which prioritizes you.
It is a common misconception. I had an hour long screaming match with my guild leader that does not play this game (multi game guild) trying to explain to them why greed all was better and simpler and they couldn't get passed the word greed. Literally one freaking hour of "I don't want my guild members being greedy" as a response simply because of the word greed.
To this day when I recall that I still want to break my $150 keyboard over their head...
Yeah it's very greedy to give everyone the same chance to get all loot with no value discrepency. Much less greedy to claim loot for yourself amirite? If need was more common, you'd get people needing the loot as the most valuable class so they earn more than the rest. Why should they earn more than everyone else, or why should a class get a smaller chance of getting loot if there are multiple of that class in a party.
Greed = sharing the chance and value of all loot
Need = denying the party that item
If the chest didn't exist or had a small chance of getting what you wanted, then maybe things would be different, but they're not. It doesn't take long to get anything apart from artifacts and bop gear which are exempt anyway.
This would likely end kicking as well since if you beat the boss, you would be credited a box and not have to worry about looting said boss. They should also make the dungeon delve chests into a similar system or add chests in PE that can be looted once the dungeon is completed and you were credited.
This is the problem right here, people trying to disguise bs in sheep's clothing, most of the people in the legit channel only run greed all runs, they will never let you need on anything, there is a pure and simple rule with this channel, greed all or don't run with this groups. This is where one of the greed toxicity comes from. There is nothing wrong running with pugs, it means you can actually need on a item that you want.
Running premade groups and agreeing to a loot rule before entering a dungeon is the preferred way to establish the rules. But saying not to pug, because you want people not to pug, and go to legit and in so creating more greed mentality is just wrong.
Had a lot of issues with this as well before joining a guild. Fortunately, nowadays I'm doing very few PUGs.
When I PUG I assume "need all", unless agreed differently (and in this case i'll rather find another party, because, really, who would ever trust a PUG?).
"Greed" is common sense as long as you know the people (or you have some reason to trust them). Otherwise, "Need" makes far more sense.
Probably I've explained it badly but that what i meant, people stuck on the word greed as the bad thing when actually if you put the label greed on what now need it is more fitting.
It is not a channel rule!
There is not a single party where if I met new people I woudn't ask or say the loot rules. Some assume 'greed all' others verify and run what they want.
If you want to run need, state so and make a group.. but don't be surprised if no one will run with you.. there is a logic behind the greed all... it was not invented to grief everyone... and especially not against new players..
I and many others geared on greed runs way before legit...
It came from class population shift and prices change..
P&P don't have player based economy with enough player base. Here there is such thing and people adapted to the price differential between the class items.
But yes, the assumption that legit can read anyone's mind and magically adjust loot rules and pugs are inherently evil is also wrong.