Naaa, I overestimate if anything............I think a buffbot is probably the most powerful group member, not because of his own baby tap damage, but other classes like CW and HR damage getting buffed.
KV and ITF and insanely powerful and a lot of GFs don't know it..........at the beginning of mod 4 I was in a TOS group that failed at the last boss 3 times in a row. I was on my DC and for the 4th run I asked the GF to try KV and ITF. Not only did we win the 4th run but it was actually easy. Same group, 2 spells. Boosted everyone's damage and kept us all alive at the same time.
Since then I've been operating under the assumption that the GF is the biggest group difference maker in Mod 4. I get invited to groups soon as I log on, and when I'm playing other classes, my guild and everyone else asks me to get on my GF.
So see? I overestimate:)
Venril Sathir- CW
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
Well if you calc 8% is better than the 6% I get out of KV. Actually I am currently using Greens in the overload with GPF. It does proc the de-buff so everything in 30' gets three stacks right quick. And incidentally adds more aggro to me. A little harder to figure is the increase in party DPS created by making a pile of adds around yourself that everyone can drop their AOEs on. Reflect builds are signifigantly less effective in doing so. Past that another difficut calculation is how much time is removed by having a tank that is actually damaging mods not just buffing/ de-buffing....
First of all: I can't get Glyphs to proc Weapon Enchants (tested it just now), neither off my attacks nor off taken/reflected/KV-intercepted damage. Dunno, its not working for me.
I think the difference between ET and KV might not even justify a full length discussion, but for the sake of theory-crafting:
ET vs. KV does two things: First it Marks (8% debuff) every mob in the area, second it applies one GPF stack every 10 seconds or whatever your cooldown is. I can offset the marking disadvantage by using Threatening Rush and Focus Mark and I'm confident in saying that normally 75%+ is marked for me.
Then there's the GPF situation. For every hit a mob dishes out to my allies, and is forwarded with KV, I have a 45% chance through Blacksmith and Fey Thistle boon to create a GPF stack on the source of the damage. Blacksmith procs at a 25% rate and KV damage can be deflected, which procs Fey Thistle. That's not counting Avalanche and Augmented Thayan Bastion, but with their ICD and slow buildup they are unreliable anyway.
I can't say it's superior to ET, but at least comparable, especially against control immune targets that constantly hit somebody and ranged stuff. Mod 4/5 is full of that.
I always use ET+KV so there's no competition for me between the two. I also use focused mark but until Loboguild's guide i didn't know the two were different; I thought all marks were the same because i never tested them.
I'll test the Synergy by next Friday, have work related stuff to do for now.
I want an encounter that procs Crushing Pin, so simply combining the two is not an option for me personally.
KV and ITF and insanely powerful and a lot of GFs don't know it..........at the beginning of mod 4 I was in a TOS group that failed at the last boss 3 times in a row. I was on my DC and for the 4th run I asked the GF to try KV and ITF. Not only did we win the 4th run but it was actually easy. Same group, 2 spells. Boosted everyone's damage and kept us all alive at the same time.
Since then I've been operating under the assumption that the GF is the biggest group difference maker in Mod 4. I get invited to groups soon as I log on, and when I'm playing other classes, my guild and everyone else asks me to get on my GF.
So see? I overestimate:)
Cool story bro. I guess it would be more impressive if I did not make rescue runs as a hobby. That is, as a GF I can usually random que into a party that has failed the last boss enough times that someone dropped out. And then carry them through the fight. I mean it is cool that that worked out for you but it is something I have done dozens, maybe hundreds of times just for kicks.
Lobo? Here you go:
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Cleave deals 2081 (2021) Physical Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Plague Fire Weapon deals 52 (51) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Aspect of Poison deals 300 Poison Damage to Target Dummy.[Combat (Self)] Your Aspect of Poison deals 300 Poison Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Aspect of Poison deals 309 (300) Poison Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Plague Fire Weapon deals 17 (16) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Plague Fire Weapon deals 3 (2) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Plague Fire Weapon deals 17 (16) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Plague Fire Weapon deals 3 (2) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Aspect of Poison deals 300 Poison Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Aspect of Poison deals 309 (300) Poison Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Aspect of Poison deals 300 Poison Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Plague Fire Weapon deals 17 (16) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Plague Fire Weapon deals 3 (2) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.
Not sure with other glyphs. To continue the theory crafting the primary utility I find with ET is that it aggros mobs before they are engaged. KV builds aggro against mobs that are already attacking (ie, aggroed by someone else). If you missed Gentlemancrush's awesome expolaination of aggro mechanics I will re-iterate something you likely already noticed through trial and error. Being at the top of the aggro count on a mob gives you bonus aggro on that mob. Rather helpful in getting everything into a neat little pile quickly in a fight which (lets be honest here) isn't going to last very long enyway. For the control immune, well, they are not aggro immune, so I use my focussed marks to get extra grab on them. and then it is simpole enough to lunge to the ranged and pull them together. Again, the very fact that we have to consider logistics and timing inclines me to believe that they are comparable and the best answer may come down to your build and the situation. There are situations where I will use KV. but for my build and playstyle Et is usually a better answer...
Your log is actually showing one proc of GPF. 52 damage is 7.5% Weapon Damage from the Cleave hit, the other six log lines belong to the ensuing DoT (2.5% Weapon Damage every second for three seconds) and are not new procs of the GPF enchant.
That said, there's nothing wrong with running with Overload slots and ET, for me it adds nothing to my buff potential though or is inferior to KC.
I should have explained. I only cleaved one dummy. The other two in the AOE are getting PF. There's another page of it but copy-pasting logs in NW. That is to say I am getting PF hits on targets I have not attacked with anything but aspect of poison.
I believe you, but would like to understand what's causing this, because I can't reproduce this behavior at all.
Furthermore, the log you posted does not verify that the Glyph spreads PF stacks. According to the log, this happens:
You Cleave
PF procs on the primary target (52 damage)
Glyph DoT on surrounding dummy A for 300
Glyph DoT on surrounding dummy B for 300
Glyph DoT on the primary target for 300*1.03 (one PF stack) = 309
First PF DoT on the primary target (two log lines of 17+3)
Second PF DoT on the primary target (two log lines of 17+3)
Glyph DoT on surrounding dummy A for 300
Glyph DoT on the primary target for 300*1.03 (one PF stack) = 309
Glyph DoT on surrounding dummy B for 300
Third PF DoT on the primary target (two log lines of 17+3)
If the Glyph would spread PF, shouldn't all DoTs result in at least 309 damage for 300 base and 1.03 multiplier?
In my eyes a log of Glyphs applying PF should look like this:
You Cleave
PF procs on the primary target (52 damage)
Glyph DoT on surrounding dummy A for 300
PF procs on the surrounding dummy A (52 damage)
Glyph DoT on surrounding dummy B for 300
PF procs on the surrounding dummy B (52 damage)
Glyph DoT on the primary target for 300*1.03 (one PF stack) = 309
PF procs for the second time on the primary target (52 damage)
...
Several PF DoTs
...
Glyph DoT on surrounding dummy A for 300*1.03 (one PF stack) = 309
PF procs for the second time on the surrounding dummy A (52 damage)
Glyph DoT on the primary target for 300*1.06 (two PF stacks) = 318
PF procs for the third time on the primary target (52 damage)
Glyph DoT on surrounding dummy B for 300*1.03 (one PF stack) = 309
PF procs for the second time on the surrounding dummy B (52 damage)
...
Several PF DoTs
Cool story bro. I guess it would be more impressive if I did not make rescue runs as a hobby. That is, as a GF I can usually random que into a party that has failed the last boss enough times that someone dropped out. And then carry them through the fight. I mean it is cool that that worked out for you but it is something I have done dozens, maybe hundreds of times just for kicks.
Lol, I've done so too and posted this in the past.
Question though, do you think any other class can turn around a group's success like a GF can?
Venril Sathir- CW
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
Lol, I've done so too and posted this in the past.
Question though, do you think any other class can turn around a group's success like a GF can?
No. Honestly GF is the best carry in the game and has been for a long time. It's just that power creep rarely makes a carry necissary. My point was that carrying a praty with a GF mostly just means you have figured out how to tank.
Honestly not sure lobo. but threee ticks on 1 target should be 3 PF logs or am I missing something? Like I said just something I noticed goofing around. Had not noticed previeously that one tick of PF makes 2 logs and assumed they were seperate targets. In an actual fight I am usually dropping enough AOE that it's impossible to tell.
Honestly not sure lobo. but threee ticks on 1 target should be 3 PF logs or am I missing something? Like I said just something I noticed goofing around. Had not noticed previeously that one tick of PF makes 2 logs and assumed they were seperate targets. In an actual fight I am usually dropping enough AOE that it's impossible to tell.
Yeah I gave up on the issue for now as well.
Thanks for the exchange though, might pick it up at some point in the future.
0
inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Lol, I've done so too and posted this in the past.
Question though, do you think any other class can turn around a group's success like a GF can?
Of course. Any high dmg class can carry any party comp in any dungeon. cw/sw/gwf can all easily carry as well if not better honestly than a gf can. Hr can carry too just not as effectively even with high dps.
Its just that queue groups are typically filled with 3 bads waiting on a gf and dc, so gf and dc get more exposure saving the day for scrubs, but honestly as buff/debuff/"coordinator" roles gf and dc seem to be the worst at carrying bads. they can heal and mitigate and divert dmg all day but you are still relying on bads to kill everything.
Of course. Any high dmg class can carry any party comp in any dungeon. cw/sw/gwf can all easily carry as well if not better honestly than a gf can. Hr can carry too just not as effectively even with high dps.
The difference between a GF/tank helping a group and just the typical over-geared damage dealer type class (with the exception of GWF as they can be built to tank) is that they have the ability to control/produce threat without needing to out dmg everyone. They also have the ability to taunt to save people who are being attacked, reduce damage done to the party through KV or through skill in keeping aggro on themselves and they can take damage without having to dodge around all over the place, which is always better for keeping things under control.
I have seen them make a big difference in fights that actually require some skill, where everything can't just be controlled or killed in a few seconds. Also on certain boss fights like in ESOT where when there is no GF/tank you get people dodging all over the place often into the path of others, which means they get others killed too. Whereas with a GF who can tank they can simply position the boss well and not have to dodge or move much, which generally makes it a lot easier for the rest of the group.
The reason why people think they can tank and they don't need a GF is a lot more down to game mechanics and content not yet being good enough to require such roles and team work to do well, however it is getting better so will keep hoping...
Comments
KV and ITF and insanely powerful and a lot of GFs don't know it..........at the beginning of mod 4 I was in a TOS group that failed at the last boss 3 times in a row. I was on my DC and for the 4th run I asked the GF to try KV and ITF. Not only did we win the 4th run but it was actually easy. Same group, 2 spells. Boosted everyone's damage and kept us all alive at the same time.
Since then I've been operating under the assumption that the GF is the biggest group difference maker in Mod 4. I get invited to groups soon as I log on, and when I'm playing other classes, my guild and everyone else asks me to get on my GF.
So see? I overestimate:)
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
First of all: I can't get Glyphs to proc Weapon Enchants (tested it just now), neither off my attacks nor off taken/reflected/KV-intercepted damage. Dunno, its not working for me.
I think the difference between ET and KV might not even justify a full length discussion, but for the sake of theory-crafting:
ET vs. KV does two things: First it Marks (8% debuff) every mob in the area, second it applies one GPF stack every 10 seconds or whatever your cooldown is. I can offset the marking disadvantage by using Threatening Rush and Focus Mark and I'm confident in saying that normally 75%+ is marked for me.
Then there's the GPF situation. For every hit a mob dishes out to my allies, and is forwarded with KV, I have a 45% chance through Blacksmith and Fey Thistle boon to create a GPF stack on the source of the damage. Blacksmith procs at a 25% rate and KV damage can be deflected, which procs Fey Thistle. That's not counting Avalanche and Augmented Thayan Bastion, but with their ICD and slow buildup they are unreliable anyway.
I can't say it's superior to ET, but at least comparable, especially against control immune targets that constantly hit somebody and ranged stuff. Mod 4/5 is full of that.
I want an encounter that procs Crushing Pin, so simply combining the two is not an option for me personally.
Crushing pin comes at too high a price for me personally, though it's very tempting. I don't even have it feated, I went with Fight On.
I'd rather have 100% of the mobs marked; even though I tab mark a lot I'm usually unable to mark everything with tab.
Not saying either way is better than the other because each is effective imo.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
Cool story bro. I guess it would be more impressive if I did not make rescue runs as a hobby. That is, as a GF I can usually random que into a party that has failed the last boss enough times that someone dropped out. And then carry them through the fight. I mean it is cool that that worked out for you but it is something I have done dozens, maybe hundreds of times just for kicks.
Lobo? Here you go:
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Cleave deals 2081 (2021) Physical Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Plague Fire Weapon deals 52 (51) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Aspect of Poison deals 300 Poison Damage to Target Dummy.[Combat (Self)] Your Aspect of Poison deals 300 Poison Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Aspect of Poison deals 309 (300) Poison Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Plague Fire Weapon deals 17 (16) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Plague Fire Weapon deals 3 (2) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Plague Fire Weapon deals 17 (16) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Plague Fire Weapon deals 3 (2) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Aspect of Poison deals 300 Poison Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Aspect of Poison deals 309 (300) Poison Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Aspect of Poison deals 300 Poison Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Plague Fire Weapon deals 17 (16) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Plague Fire Weapon deals 3 (2) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.
Not sure with other glyphs. To continue the theory crafting the primary utility I find with ET is that it aggros mobs before they are engaged. KV builds aggro against mobs that are already attacking (ie, aggroed by someone else). If you missed Gentlemancrush's awesome expolaination of aggro mechanics I will re-iterate something you likely already noticed through trial and error. Being at the top of the aggro count on a mob gives you bonus aggro on that mob. Rather helpful in getting everything into a neat little pile quickly in a fight which (lets be honest here) isn't going to last very long enyway. For the control immune, well, they are not aggro immune, so I use my focussed marks to get extra grab on them. and then it is simpole enough to lunge to the ranged and pull them together. Again, the very fact that we have to consider logistics and timing inclines me to believe that they are comparable and the best answer may come down to your build and the situation. There are situations where I will use KV. but for my build and playstyle Et is usually a better answer...
That said, there's nothing wrong with running with Overload slots and ET, for me it adds nothing to my buff potential though or is inferior to KC.
Furthermore, the log you posted does not verify that the Glyph spreads PF stacks. According to the log, this happens:
You Cleave
PF procs on the primary target (52 damage)
Glyph DoT on surrounding dummy A for 300
Glyph DoT on surrounding dummy B for 300
Glyph DoT on the primary target for 300*1.03 (one PF stack) = 309
First PF DoT on the primary target (two log lines of 17+3)
Second PF DoT on the primary target (two log lines of 17+3)
Glyph DoT on surrounding dummy A for 300
Glyph DoT on the primary target for 300*1.03 (one PF stack) = 309
Glyph DoT on surrounding dummy B for 300
Third PF DoT on the primary target (two log lines of 17+3)
If the Glyph would spread PF, shouldn't all DoTs result in at least 309 damage for 300 base and 1.03 multiplier?
In my eyes a log of Glyphs applying PF should look like this:
You Cleave
PF procs on the primary target (52 damage)
Glyph DoT on surrounding dummy A for 300
PF procs on the surrounding dummy A (52 damage)
Glyph DoT on surrounding dummy B for 300
PF procs on the surrounding dummy B (52 damage)
Glyph DoT on the primary target for 300*1.03 (one PF stack) = 309
PF procs for the second time on the primary target (52 damage)
...
Several PF DoTs
...
Glyph DoT on surrounding dummy A for 300*1.03 (one PF stack) = 309
PF procs for the second time on the surrounding dummy A (52 damage)
Glyph DoT on the primary target for 300*1.06 (two PF stacks) = 318
PF procs for the third time on the primary target (52 damage)
Glyph DoT on surrounding dummy B for 300*1.03 (one PF stack) = 309
PF procs for the second time on the surrounding dummy B (52 damage)
...
Several PF DoTs
What am I not getting?
Lol, I've done so too and posted this in the past.
Question though, do you think any other class can turn around a group's success like a GF can?
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
No. Honestly GF is the best carry in the game and has been for a long time. It's just that power creep rarely makes a carry necissary. My point was that carrying a praty with a GF mostly just means you have figured out how to tank.
Honestly not sure lobo. but threee ticks on 1 target should be 3 PF logs or am I missing something? Like I said just something I noticed goofing around. Had not noticed previeously that one tick of PF makes 2 logs and assumed they were seperate targets. In an actual fight I am usually dropping enough AOE that it's impossible to tell.
Yeah I gave up on the issue for now as well.
Thanks for the exchange though, might pick it up at some point in the future.
Of course. Any high dmg class can carry any party comp in any dungeon. cw/sw/gwf can all easily carry as well if not better honestly than a gf can. Hr can carry too just not as effectively even with high dps.
Its just that queue groups are typically filled with 3 bads waiting on a gf and dc, so gf and dc get more exposure saving the day for scrubs, but honestly as buff/debuff/"coordinator" roles gf and dc seem to be the worst at carrying bads. they can heal and mitigate and divert dmg all day but you are still relying on bads to kill everything.
The difference between a GF/tank helping a group and just the typical over-geared damage dealer type class (with the exception of GWF as they can be built to tank) is that they have the ability to control/produce threat without needing to out dmg everyone. They also have the ability to taunt to save people who are being attacked, reduce damage done to the party through KV or through skill in keeping aggro on themselves and they can take damage without having to dodge around all over the place, which is always better for keeping things under control.
I have seen them make a big difference in fights that actually require some skill, where everything can't just be controlled or killed in a few seconds. Also on certain boss fights like in ESOT where when there is no GF/tank you get people dodging all over the place often into the path of others, which means they get others killed too. Whereas with a GF who can tank they can simply position the boss well and not have to dodge or move much, which generally makes it a lot easier for the rest of the group.
The reason why people think they can tank and they don't need a GF is a lot more down to game mechanics and content not yet being good enough to require such roles and team work to do well, however it is getting better so will keep hoping...