test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Player Proposed Business Plan to Provide Revenue via the Foundry and meet Player Need

2»

Comments

  • vandignescavandignesca Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I guess that's where we fundamentally disagree reiwulf. I think it is perfectly acceptable for them to charge us for new tools and assets to make content for their game which is already free and for which they did not charge us for. A Foundry author could play this game, make content for this game, and have all of it not cost him/her a cent apart from the internet connection. I think asking for more content for free is unreasonable, even if its to help us make content in their game world. If they put in the work, they should get paid. This game and the program are already free. Yes, it's for a private game that you log into and not on your own computer, but that's the nature of the Foundry for which you create already. You're creating free content in a free game that they gave to you for free because you enjoy doing it. Heck, as a Foundry author, if you're good, you can actually make zen over time with ad tip conversions alone. I just don't understand, not trying to be condescending here, I'm genuinely baffled, why the idea of paying for someone else's work is unacceptable. If a coder puts in the extra time to update the Foundry?

    Why shouldn't they or the company they work for get paid? We're using tools right now that have been provided to us completely FREE of charge...It's like going to an art workshop for free and learning techniques and getting the chance to use introductory tools for free. What's wrong with the workshop charging for advanced tools and making some money for its time and effort? Yes the difference you mentioned is that you can't take your work completely home with you in this case. But that's just the situation we have with the internet right now. The Foundry is set up to work on and publish on their servers, that's why we can chat when we're in the Foundry. I think we just have to accept we're not getting hard copies of what we create in this case probably without a major rework that's even more financially strenuous than simply updating the coding and features.
    Love yourself, and focus on the rest of the madness of life later.
  • mrgiggles651mrgiggles651 Member Posts: 790 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    It would be paying to be their employee. They already own the rights to anything you make in the Foundry (read the foundry ToS, they own the rights to your awesome epic story).

    It's a very small scale of indentured servitude with a company store.

    As far as zen income from tips, that's pretty much negligible. Mrthebozer I think reported having made a million or two AD, and he is one of the most popular foundry authors and one of a you can count them on one hand number of authors to achieve the top foundry achievement. A million AD is not much, a week on leadership alts, maybe.
    I wasted five million AD promoting the Foundry.
  • vandignescavandignesca Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    It's not indentured servitude because it's your choice to make stuff for the Foundry. They owe you nothing and you owe them nothing at that point. If they make something for you, then it's fair to give them money or not depending on if you want the product, but it's fair for them to charge you for their work. By making stuff in the Foundry, you've already said you don't need payment because its their tool on their servers inside their game whose rules you agreed to...You make this for fun, for your friends, for the in-game rewards and recognition, whatever. If anything saying that you want improvements but won't pay for them in a free-to-play game is almost like asking for them to be in servitude to you...Seriously...you're asking for them to work for you, in a game you play for free...without you having to pay them anything. The devs are the indentured servants, not the customers. You know what...I'm just throwing this out there in desperation. I don't like big money grabbing companies either...but the basic principle here regardless of the fact that they are a company, is that if they do the work, they have the right to ask payment for it. You can play the game for free...if people didn't like fluff...the game would collapse because the game would have no income...all of its gameplay content is free. The Foundry as it has been abandoned pretty much, is clearly an item of work they didn't budget for with their current store offerings, and they have essentially said as much...It needs to generate revenue. If I were a dev at this point I would probably be inclined to give you guys nothing, because my potential work would go unrewarded, the company would not get the money it wants, and I could be layed off...lose my livelihood...They owe you nothing at this point beyond bugfixes for stuff already here...which does include the Foundry, I admit. But new content for it, features? Absolutely nothing is owed to us at this point.
    Love yourself, and focus on the rest of the madness of life later.
  • reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I'll quote you:
    If they put in the work, they should get paid
    this exact same thing applies to us. They ARE getting paid, this is a f2p game but they make money for their work, players buy z with real money. Quoting you, if WE put the work, WE should get paid. WE are making the foundry quests, so why should WE pay THEM? By us making good foundry quests and having people playing them, and playing the game, we already "paid" fort using their tools, we're bringing them more people. So, even though it's not probably they'll pay foundry authors for our WORK to help THEIR game, asking us to PAY them on top of that is too much.

    I'm sorry if I sound to harsh, I don't think your idea is stupid, I just don't agree. :)
    2e2qwj6.jpg
  • waryurwaryur Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Not being argumentative, just thinking out loud.
    How can the Foundry generate revenue if it is not attracting "customers"? Many have stated the Foundry is stagnating, it's abandoned, etc. Let's look past the general need for bug fixes and new assets for a second.

    Look at how Cryptic generates revenue. In the main game, they've slowly introduced options to buy with zen or astrals things you can also grind for - they've created free content that people found attractive and eventually implemented ways for people to pay for that content (Like paying zen for all the dread ring boons at once, or astrals for epic dungeon keys for their chance for end game gear). They didn't do it all at once, they waited to see if people were playing it, if they wanted it, then gave an option to buy it.

    What do players get from the Foundry? What is the "attraction"? Some awesome stories and visuals, of course, but as someone else said, grinding dungeons are rated in the best category. Despite notes and warnings, foundries get one-star ratings because of bad end chest loot. And Rhix only gives 4000 AD for running four daily foundries. It seems to me, something needs to be done to attract more of these types of players. They can't be ignored just because I as an author disagree with their reason for running the foundries. They're still part of my overall audience. Show that the foundry attracts a sustaining audience, people that keep coming back, then you can start to consider generating revenue.

    How to attract a sustaining audience? Well, the cheapest way would be some more advertising. A better splashpage for the Foundry catalog. A game event focusing on the foundry. Yes, more work on the dev's end, but can't think of anything else at the moment.

    How to attract more authors? Or keep authors around, for that matter. Well, at this point, I feel existing authors have to kinda do it themselves. To stop relying on cryptic or whomever to make the Foundry better for us. To make the best of what we have now, instead of the frustration of what it could be. Make posts about creative work-arounds for known issues (before someone brings up said issue), make How-To foundries for the newbs. That used to be done, but it's mostly gone away or not been updated. Help each other become better authors, then maybe people would stick around more instead of being frustrated at the limitations. Collaboration. Then that fraction of a fraction will start to increase.

    These are just opinions and rambling ideas. I'm no expert in marketing or business. But it seems that before any system of revenue can be considered, the problem of attracting "customers" needs to be worked on first.
    Hidden Valley Ranch - NW-DPNGENL6E D&D Adventures Part I
    House of 1000 Corpses - NW-DIEYVLCML D&D Adventures Part II
    Well of Dragons - NW-DTPJEKZCT Third Place Winner CotD Foundry Contest
    It's Just a Flesh Wound Pt. 1 - NW-DM8GHAME2 Monty Python!
    It's Just a Flesh Wound Pt. 2 - NW-DFADOS4EX Monty Python!
  • mrgiggles651mrgiggles651 Member Posts: 790 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Making authors pay isnt going to attract players though, and there's not enough authors that even if you did charge i doubt you could pay for a dev (or even gurantee to get a dev directly from author income). Making it worthwhile for players to play will. Those farm quests are at the top because the playerbase mostly cares about lootz (statwise or appearance wise), not story. And loot wise the foundry loses every single time except for pure farming of things that can be farmed in Foundry.

    I am of the opinion that they actually discourage foundry play. The reason is that it requires much more server power to have 30 people in 30 different foundry maps, many of which are custom made and have to be loaded on demand, than to have 30 people in one official instance that's probably highly optimized for performance. Server power costs money, and we know from their statements they are highly metric driven, meaning the beancounters ultimately run the show.

    In my opinion Foundry's existence was a beancounter marketing bullet point not intended to be used once they had a base of content in it. They got that base pre Mod 1 from creators who were so excited they could create that they didn't look look at the teeth of the "gift horse". It was never a gift horse (though I think the devs made the 3-d editor as a gift).
    I wasted five million AD promoting the Foundry.
  • vandignescavandignesca Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    @reiwulf

    I guess we just have different perspectives then. I don't view using the Foundry tool myself as work. I view it as part of the game itself. I have fun with it. When I made an adventure I didn't think, "wow, that was a lot of work I put into making Cryptic's game better"...I thought, "cool, that was a fun adventure I just created for myself and others". I view the Foundry as a few extra blank pages added to a public picture book if you will, with some basic coloring pencils provided so we can draw our own scenes and adventures. I don't think it's wrong for the creator of that free book to ask for some money for some new colors or tools for us to create art with. Yep, it's true that those who buy the new tools might have snazzier drawings and stuff. But I don't think those who didn't get those things should feel bad that people don't look at their art from which it has already been admitted they likely earned very little. They should just enjoy what they did create, and maybe if they like what others have created, they'll want to buy the new tools themselves to make their own fun art. I don't think creators should be looking at what another Foundry does or doesn't have in terms of content to decide whether or not their Foundry was worth it, even if it gets only 5 plays. Make the art for yourself, own it, don't depend upon the adulation of the crowd for your own happiness, and realize that the work you put into it was by your own choice. Accept that personal responsibility. I don't view that as doing work for the company of the book.

    To me it is no different than any other aspect of the game, from customizing your character with mounts or costumes. It is a part of making the game world my own. I expend time, energy, and thought thinking about my character's builds, fashion looks, appearance etc. I don't view the Foundry as anything different, it's Cryptics offering of allowing me to make some part of the game world my own, only instead of characters, it's my own story or adventure. I view the Foundry kind of like mods for some other games I own, like Skyrim. Now, while Skyrim's mod tool is free to use...it also is only available as part of the purchase of the game. It also receives very few if any updates to it post launch. I think we got like 3 creation kit updates over Skyrim's lifetime and usually they were just there to match up code with an impending patch. The new content for that kit? It came with the paid DLC. Neverwinter has no box price, no payment requirement for general gameplay, and only earns revenue through so-called "fluff" and things like retraining tokens or crafting packs. Even though Neverwinter is an online game with other people, I view the Foundry as enhancing "my game", because everything I make in it is my creation for my own use (or others if they want) and for my own pleasure. I see it as a tool much like Skyrim's creation kit, but just like that mod tool, I think it's fair to have to pay to get new toys to play with in the toolbox.

    I don't see it as doing free "work" for Cryptic. It's my content. If you view it as work you should be paid for, I just disagree. It's your conscious choice to enhance the gameworld you play in with your own content and ideas. I say with absolute kind sincerity because it's what I believe, but I don't want you to think it comes from anger or condescension towards you. I just feel, absolutely, that your perspective that whatever the player base can create in the game for itself should count as work when it was done voluntarily already for their own pleasure, will doom the Foundry to receive no updates at all. I also think that that action would be fair on behalf of Cryptic.
    Love yourself, and focus on the rest of the madness of life later.
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    It's my content.

    Except for the portions of the Terms of Service that expressly state that it isn't. Anywhoo....

    I just can't see this as the kind of idea that would attract more players, but that would actively drive some existing ones away.

    There are a lot of people who will not dip their toes into Foundry creation more than a little as it is, not because of current lack of toys to play with, but because the learning curve is steep enough on the ones that already exist that they'd rather go do something else.

    Regardless of whether PWE views the metrics right this instant as worth making updates to the Foundry, the base of people who use it and therefore *might* be expected to pay for something is already a fraction of the Neverwinter population. And then you'd be looking at a fraction of those who actually *would * pay. So what do you think they'd have to charge for one Foundry Xpac in order to actually justify the development cost to make that thing?

    Did you ever see an episode of The Simpsons in which Homer designs his idea of a dream car, and the price tag is something like millions of dollars, because he'd be the only person who wanted it? It's a bit like that.

    Putting a new mount or companion in the Zen store and slapping a price sticker on it doesn't take much when it's just a new skin fitted over a model they've already animated. Nor does selling basic services like resetting your power points or making your bank bigger.

    The Foundry improvements that do occasionally happen (to my understanding) are things like taking existing assets (art, sounds, etc.) and adding them to the menus of available stuff. So somebody already did most of the work in order to prepare that for use in a core Neverwinter update, and it eventually was released for Foundry use too.

    Tool improvements represent a lot of dev time. So does custom content that doesn't exist as a Neverwinter asset in some form.

    Considering that they seem to be running a very bare-bones crew even for big updates their entire playerbase will experience, to put more resources into Foundry would be looking at a lot of money, far more than anything I think they could reasonably expect to extract from the pockets of a very generous estimate of a few hundred Foundry authors (and that I honestly think would be a lot less buying into the model).

    Realistically, I don't think we're talking about a twenty-dollar impulse-buy level of marketing that could self-sustain. We're looking at what a program like Photoshop Pro would cost, if it was only used by a few hundred people in the entire world.
    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
  • vandignescavandignesca Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Except for the portions of the Terms of Service that expressly state that it isn't. Anywhoo....

    I recognize that I don't own the content, just as I don't own the page in the picture book I choose to design, but it is my content in the sense that it is my voluntarily creation.
    I just can't see this as the kind of idea that would attract more players, but that would actively drive some existing ones away.

    At this point, from my perspective, I think driving away those people might be healthy for the game. Just my perspective.
    Love yourself, and focus on the rest of the madness of life later.
  • essentiessenti Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 303 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    *snip* I say with absolute kind sincerity because it's what I believe, but I don't want you to think it comes from anger or condescension towards you. *snip*
    You have stated that your words do not come from a position of grandeur, but how you are framing your dialog does come across as condescending. I suggest you ditch that ugly straw-man you're wielding, the one that looks like an "entitled, adulation-seeking artist." I assure you that it has much less in common with foundry authors than you might think. I would posit that many of us are well aware of how to garner enjoyment from our creations. In fact, we've been doing so for well over a year without any other motivation other than the joyful act of creation. Many of us have been asking for the developers to broaden their zen store footprint into the foundry so that it can help generate revenue. We do not believe that we should get something for nothing.

    Like any other player in this game, authors want to see the aspect of the game we love improved and expanded. And I would like to see thoughtful discourse on how we can steer the developers into making this happen. I would like to work with you on improving the foundry, but you currently appear to have barricaded yourself into a particular corner and have chosen to defend it vigorously.

    Standing in that corner and defending it until you get sick of doing so will not be useful for you or the community.

    Come on out of that corner and accept that the ideas you originally outlined are not enough to sustain future foundry development. Give your fellow authors the benefit of not assuming we are mostly-entitled, adulation-seeking, and uninformed artists. We will get more accomplished by treating each other as peers.

    The major problems we are currently facing, as I see it:
    • The foundry is not getting the development attention it deserves.
    • The development team does not have proper metrics concerning the impact of the foundry on revenue.
    • The foundry does not offer player rewards that make the foundry worthwhile to play.
    • We have no way to deliver our suggestions to the development team.
    • These problems are co-dependent, thus very hard to tackle individually.

    Some of the suggested solutions:

    [LIST=|INDENT=1]
    [*]Charging authors for expanded content could generate a revenue stream.
    • Provides direct one time revenue per pack for foundry development.
    • Adds a measurable metric for zen-store sales.
    • Currently, the small author player-base makes this unsustainable.
    [/LIST]

    • Temporary zen-store assets from foundry chests.
      • Slightly improves the reward for playing foundry quests.
      • Adds a measurable metric for foundry impact on zen-store sales.
      • Impacts an already sustainable revenue stream (zen-store).
      • Nebulous impact on revenue.

    • Advertising zen-store assets on foundry map loading pages.
      • Adds another layer of measurable metric for foundry impact on zen-store sales.
      • Impacts an already sustainable revenue stream (zen-store).
      • Nebulous impact on zen-store sales.

    • Foundry zen-store event, buy current in-game assets on behalf of the foundry development
      • Provides direct one-time revenue for foundry development
      • Does not create an artificial pay-wall separating authors.
      • By design this is not sustainable, but provides funding to implement the sustainable zen-store advertising (or better ideas that PWE/Cryptic might have)
      • Authors and foundry advocates can invest directly in foundry development.
      • Could completely replace charging authors for enhanced foundry assets.

    I haven't a clue on how to get the attention of PWE/Cryptic concerning our shared desire to help the foundry generate revenue for the developers. Any suggestions on that front would be wonderful.
    Campaign - Trail of the Imaskarcana (NWS-DMFG77QOF)
    • A Mere Expedition! (NW-DIAAPG3S4)
    • Work In Progress on Part 2
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Every foundry completed gives a BoA refining gem in the chest instead of some cruddy green item that might not even spawn. Stick it on a cooldown like the XP rewards to avoid people exploiting 2-second quests, and adjust the RP-value of the gem up or down based on time taken to complete questing. Peridots for 15-minuters for completing Rhix dailies, up to a black opal for epic exploration.

    Rewards that are proportionate and desired. I haven't got an idea for the logistics of people AFKing in a foundry for an hour, but I'm not sure how big a deal it would really be either.

    Yep, bribing people to play.
    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,464 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I like the idea of unlocking content packs; it reminds me of packs for things like Campaign Cartographer that you could buy to make better maps. You didn't need them, but they let you expand your creativity a great deal. Of course, this depends on having a steady stream of content at a reasonable price.

    I think to close the circle, though, we would either need:

    1. Better (or even unique) quest rewards. I won't go into that here because others have already done a terrific job of exploring those possibilities.

    2. A way to tie foundry quests to current dailies that provide decent rewards. I'm shooting from the lip, but I was thinking along the lines of a dev-selected Foundry that sometimes appears instead of a particular daily, or perhaps as an optional addition that grants similar rewards (XP, campaign currency, etc.).

    In any case, we would need significantly better "vetting" for eligible Foundries (read: cull out the farming and/or exploit ones).
    Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X
    Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
    Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
    Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
    The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
    My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
  • eldartheldarth Member Posts: 4,494 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    The problem is you're trying to monetize the less than 1% of the playerbase.

    May as well try and sell ice to eskimos.
  • apocrs1980apocrs1980 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Silverstars Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Allow me to weigh in here a bit, I am one of the original authors prior to the games release and I can tell you all this, since it's release it has been obvious that little time and effort is being spent to further develop and improve the Foundry due to profitability, which I stated before in many posts.

    Back then I was strongly opposed to paying to create a foundry mission, however, you can not argue with the facts... either the Foundry stays F2P and you guys can just deal with what the foundry is now or they could take a page out of Project Spark's play book and create content packs beyond all the free assets provided. After playing Project Spark they release new content for it literally every 3 days!

    Its moderately priced so you could skip your morning cup of coffee to fuel your creative habits or you could by a premium service which doubles your credits earned to get those content packs for free.

    If PWE was to do this with the foundry they would be in the same boat and you could pick and choose which additional content packs you want to unlock for your account.it would come out more regularly and reliably and they would even be able to pay their devs for free foundry system improvements.

    If they were to do this tomorrow the free users wouldn't be loosing anything as the Foundry will remain stagnant otherwise, but for those of us that don't mind dropping 5 bucks here and there to get some new content we would be assuring devs are employed to improve the Foundry for everyone. By the way PWI I dropped $109 on Project Spark, it coulda been yours so get with the program!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The Cragsteep Crypt - BETA
    Ravenloft
    Look for@Apocrs1980 or visit the main page here or Ravenloft here
  • zahinderzahinder Member Posts: 897 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    People keep basing their judgements of authors and players based on how it is now.

    But things are really messed up, now -- it's hard to get plays or even for people to find your missions, it's hard to find stuff you like, and rewards are minimal for everyone involved.

    You need the vision and understanding of what it could be, and how to make that happen.
    Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH

    Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?

    Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?

    Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
  • banzaikittenbanzaikitten Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 220 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    i think personaly that paying for extra packs wil scare builders.
    imho i am already making (cough,cough) donations to this game.
    bcouse its worth it, (well, my opinion) ,bug are everywhere.
    but of some1 pay's for packs, he also could DEMAND fixes if things are broke...,thats a no go for many coders.
Sign In or Register to comment.