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What if CW dmg was reduced but ignored armor/deflection(but not tenacity etc.)
burkaanc
Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
Just an idea, how might that work out ?
atm CW are really OP in PvE, but nothing special(c) in PvP
in theory that would allow a huge(and well deserved) nerf for CW PvE capabilities, without destroying CW in PvP, CW damage should still respect tenacity and stuff like Unstoppable, Block etc. but ignore armor
the problem with magic class like cw is that a burst should be a part of the class, but it is either too strong in low geared situations or meh against geared players, it would be easier to balance since all classes can get similar tenacity, and damage resistance from armor could be taken out of it
that could be done with smth like capstone or class feature(so u dont have to do same for other magic classes)
atm CW are really OP in PvE, but nothing special(c) in PvP
in theory that would allow a huge(and well deserved) nerf for CW PvE capabilities, without destroying CW in PvP, CW damage should still respect tenacity and stuff like Unstoppable, Block etc. but ignore armor
the problem with magic class like cw is that a burst should be a part of the class, but it is either too strong in low geared situations or meh against geared players, it would be easier to balance since all classes can get similar tenacity, and damage resistance from armor could be taken out of it
that could be done with smth like capstone or class feature(so u dont have to do same for other magic classes)
Paladin Master Race
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Well, Deflect is quite annoying and there's nothing you can do against it but prone someone. Classes such as HR and GWF sometimes get crazy Deflect chains and make a CW's damage more of a tickle - if they get somewhat lucky.
Defense is already kinda ignored due to ArP, glyphs and debuffs such as GPF, but fully ignoring it would still be useful.
This is a very interesting idea but would need a serious amount of testing and fine tuning to assure CW is not completely destroying people in PvP while still having nice damage, and CW still has decent PvE DPS, without doing more DPS than the pure DPS classes.
the /only/ thing i would suggest is that for some reason the Idea that every class has one stat that lets them ignore DR based on that stat. Ie a Sw with a 22 int ignores 12% of targes DR. I think this either needs to be stripped from /all/ classses that have it or applied universally to all classses.
But having the strongest DPs class in the game outright ignore targets DR in pvp would be grossly unbalanced.
with piercing blade but more with assaillant. DEV were right on their choice by trying equilibrate this fact (and that should have been a possiblitiy for 1 dps path of each class) with power that ignore DR and also HP based. but player came and complain.
NAd since available GS is increasing on each module: what that was impossible on beta a high defense / HP player who do reasonable damage is now quite peace of cake.
SO more than touching CW dev need to reduce GAP between hp/defense VS offense on PVP mod (need to still be more efficient since on PVE on opposite you relie more on DPS).
one of the point could be extra PV from equip provide half value on PVP. like that it would be much more on the spot without touching PV from constit
What I suggest is to get rid of the current mastery mechanic, implement some effects to the normal powers and create a new tab mechanic that makes the powers completely ignore any DR and control immunity/reduction.
It seems adequate for a class that was created with CC in mind. And, of course, some nerfs would have to come too.
that is why it should come with damage reduction, if you reduced base damage by a lot the pve dmg would be much lower, while high end PvP damage wouldnt be affected much, and it would be easier to fight smth like HR/GWF
ARP plays little role in pve cause getting the 24% is easy and all classes do that(except DC maybe) but getting through 50% DR from armor in pvp is much harder
for example a class feature could be replaced by "CW strikes true ignoring DR from armor and Deflection"
for pve ppl might even skip it for stormspell or whatever the other paragon uses, in PvP you would need to chose that, stormspell or eye of the storm, stormspell could be nerfed(as part of the damage reduction)
this would have less effect on low end pvp(since ppl just dont have armor/deflection as high) but would really affect high end pvp since ppl have up to 60% deflect alone, and points from ARP could be used for damage or defense
You need to give them more teleports, more defensive feats and more control.
PVP CWs benefit, without giving even more tools to PVE CWs
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
Live server CWs? No. They need to nerf HRs a little bit, but PVP CWs are fine.
I think OP is talking about CWs on preview though
An essentially much lower damage version of the CW, but in compensation a full set of controls to wield/utilize. The current "long-CC + burst-damage" doctrine many CWs take seems to hold some dangers of seriously backfiring in that if the attempt fails (such as through deflection, or broken through Unstoppable or ITC), then effectively the fight can be decisively turned against you while you're waiting for your key CC powers to recharge.
Contrary to such results, the new Scoundrel TRs have very useful short-CCs coming from certain feats which can be repeated at a much shorter time frame. If we translate this into the CW, it would be sort of like a lower damage CW which can exact a much powerful control over its enemies -- at the price of loss of the burst damage.
Judging by how the Scoundrel TRs are having a much better chance against HRs, it might be useful if the CW accepts the lower damage, for the great compensation of being able to reapply CCs as fast and often as possible. If anything it'd allow the CW to gain initiative against HRs or GWFs more often -- even if its for a short while, would it not be better for the CW to be able to actually control the HR more, than the HR controlling the CW more with disrupt arrows?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
We'll see how the HR nerfs hit them, but right now CWs cannot gain initiative on good HRs who use disruptive shot and stealth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc
Seriously, mechanics like unmitigated damage and life steal kills the tradeoff between being tanky or DPS centered.
So It will ignore defense without requirement to stack Arm Pen. No good really. Cause all you have to do is to stack Arm Pen to 24% cap in case we have PVE CW. or possible not even stack arm pen at all for pvp - depends on how this will be implemented.
2 ways of doing it
1 .as you suggest - ignore defense /deflect all the time. Then you will not need Arm pen for CW at all. So all extra points will go into power and Crit. No so good cause you will be close to same base damage as now but without any possible defense against CW.
2. as it is now for HR and TR - extra damage that can not be deflect. This is possible option since you need high base damage and Arm pen for it . But Thing is that HR have lowest base damage for melee - so 40% extra from piercing is just compensation for low base combat damage. Bad game design. CW on other side don't have low base weapon damage. so no real boost is needed.
In any way what you ask is buff for CWs. With all control that you have now on live it is not required at all. With new changes we need to look at new CWs. Yet still buffing damage for control class is kinda no good in my opinion.
You do have to understand that we can not give everything to one class. Shield, best control, Huge damage in AOE and Single target, and insane LS - this is what will ruin this game and all other classes. Even now with current dungeons there is only 1 epic lol that does not benefit from stacking CWs. At the same time we have only 2 maps for pvp, so having all of this in one class - what would you need other classes for in pvp - you will just have various builds of CW.
Ignoring Tenancy for any class is worse idea ever for balancing pvp. Even now in mod 4 with instance damage that all classes do we have one shot kills in pvp. And you ask for more?
Best idea in my opinion is to make true D&D system with Fortitude/Arm Class/Reflexes/Will. But this is a good work and requires balancing. It is way easier for Cryptic to still fail at balance with casual stuff they make and constant nerfs with cooldown. They still can not balance defence/deflect/damage so adding more or changing it will be too big for them.
1 change HP: actually Extra HP are a way to powerfull bonus for any class. While in PVP extra HP should be half lvl of their actual lvl. reason is quite simple in pve mob don't use power that reduce damage resistance while it's the case in PVP. it only serve upping DR against low lvl player or pve player and even there in most of time you get better benefit from choising HP VS defense except for gwf sentinel and GF.
So point one : WHile tagged in PVP extra HP are cut by half
2 In pvp Put a base damage max per hit based on HP defender so every one should need at least 3 shot to be killed (exemple if an hit is more than 50% of hp before tenacity then damage is cap on 50% and you apply tenacity after on those 50%)
point 2 apply a max damage based on HP defender that can be taken at once
why those two change can help CW. well those two change help reducing two thing in PVP. 1 it reduce the GAP in PVP that actually exist between defensive path and offensive path and since CW only have offensive path or control offensive player will be less on the road.
Second it reduce the GAP also with fresh newcomer and end game player: Why simply because when first PVP was implement the GAP between a fresh lvl 60 and an end game player was much shorter but due to increasing GS and power of end game player on each update. it become a non sens. MAking different lvl of PVP won't be good (actually) since there is not enough pvp player. AN other solution would be making a CAP GS to enter (So it force a player to reduce is GS to be able to enter) but it can give problem with campaign vs those who do'nt do campaign who will be able to enter why higher equip.
Don't screw around with CWs any more based on PVP scenarios.
CWs will and should always be inferior in PVP because that is not their proper milieu.
As stated above, CWs don't have any defensive feats or paragon paths. That is because CW's defenses come via control. Since the moment someone gets perma-CC'ed by a CW in PVP, a wave of tears erupts on the forums, CW's can't control anymore. Therefore no defense.
Stay away please from any CW PvP topics. Your ignorance knows no bounds. You clearly want to destroy:
- PvP
- PvP CW
- attempts at elite PvE, such as raiding
You're a daily grinder with some attempts at dungeoneering, on your first MMO venture. Stay there, don't actively try to destroy the game for the rest of us.
Enough is enough.
If by "some attempts at dungeoneering" you mean "all the dungeons", then yes.
And yes this is my first MMO. If you say all of these dungeons are EZ Mode dungeons, then fine. I don't really care. If you say I would fail horribly at some WoW raid, then hey, maybe you are right. But I am not playing that game, am I? I am not the one trying to turn this game into some other game, like you seem to want to do. If this game is too EZ Mode for you then don't play it. For me it is not.
I don't want to "destroy" "elite PvE", I just don't want raids to turn PVE into what PVP is now: a two-tiered system full of only a few 20k monsters, and the rest 12k scrubs, because only "the elite" can get the awesome gear and everyone else cannot even climb the latter high enough in order to try to get the gear.
And yeah I don't particularly care for PVP and would not shed a tear if it were eliminated from this game.
But CWs are clearly meant for AOE control of mass mobs, something you don't find in PVP Domination maps.
Having a different view or being in his first MMO isn't a point to destroy argument. Making change to balance premade PVP endgame that have effect on the whole player even those who doN,t play pvp is neither an argument. If you play this game for long enough how many class or path get destroyed on PVE because of change done to equilibrate PVP.
By making change that affect each time both PVP and PVE on a class it always make people angry especially when change done for only one part of the game.
On that Dev should just focus on PVP flag and how it interact damage or else when PVP flagued. they are already able to do that on some CW power that have differents time in PVE or PVE, damage that are also different. Intimidation on PVP is over damage on gwf. but on PVE it correct. flag it: WHen on PVP it does half damage.
ALso they should better work on a system to reduce the difference of equipment while tagged on PVP. because actually under 14-15 k GS on most class you are only a sand bag for most class (get killed in one or two shot).
do ppl really dont read the thread before they post ?
unmitigated damage is a good mechanic if it works, it got bad rep cause it was fd up on HR by working on pre-mitigated damage instead of after mitigation
if base damage nerf was balanced then this would reduce CW dmg in PvE, in low end/vs squishies the damage would stay the same, and the damage vs classes stacking armor/deflect(HR,GF,GWF,TR) the damage would be increased, you an only get to some 4k crit, rest is a waste, same for recovery, so you could either get more power(that would add less cause of reduced base dmg) or more deflect/armor/hp
and i dont want full piercing, im thinking about semi piercing, cause piercing ignores tenacity and various skills adding DR, that damage resistance should be left alone(like block/unstoppable/whatever)
that must be the biggest pile of bs on the internet
read the topic ? the point of this is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> around with CW in PvE without destroying them in PvP
That is the system we have now. Old players who were fortunate enough to farm PVE when it was worthwhile and players who got their gear through other methods (money, and other means).
The new players cannot use legit farming methods to get BIS gear because PVE content now is very unrewarding.
Well deserved?
And how you get this idea...?
Have you played lately with Warlocks with insane TT room clearing within a blink of an eye or good Hunters?
Btw do you think that "real" CWs are rolled their character for pvp...?
I never really care for CW pvp nerf myself.
We can play that all day!
PVE CWs benefit, without giving even more tools to PVP CWs
and how much control SW/HR have, how many archers/sw solo CN and stuff ?
CW are broken op in PvE since they launched the game, BiS PvE class. now with hr and sw doing their damage its starting to change, but still pure dps classes like TR(mod4 TR, dunno about mod5 TR) and Destro/Insti GWF are way behind in damage
And who said SW and HR should have control? There are many powerful class mechanisms in MMOs apart from that!
Btw they has some limited control: rooting, pushing up and stuff.
Soloing CN? That ancient dungeon from mod0 designed for 12k GS? With joke prices lower now than PK farm salvaging loot...?
Its just for showing off. Not really worth farm soloing CN for 1-1.5 hour...
Since when GWF is pure dps class int the first place?
In D&D Great weapon fighter is from Defender main class designed to defend squishy classes and an offtank who has some dps...
Still you can use bugged intimidation to do major dps!
TR get buffs in 2 months btw but not really understand why some people keep making list of accusations that CWs are the main source of all problem in NWN...
SW, HR, GWF(destro/insti), TR dont focus on control, they are damage classes so its just fair to assume they should do more damage than a class that focuses on control
and how GWF can be a tank without any on-demand ways to avoid damage(sprint is closest) and no way to generate threat outside Sent, you do know classes have 3 trees ?
The keep citating control focus is applied only for the oppressor tree.
Not forbidden to do damage with the power tree(thaumaturgy) and the critical tree(renegade) and their control is much weaker!(lack of orb of implosion feat, freeze improving feats etc)
Btw TR has stealth, HR has root+dodges, SW has speed+curses+TT, GWF has speed+unstopable. You are false implying that these classes are coming with empty hands and without any powerfull class mechanisms.
Even apart from Sentinel feats GWFs still has unstopable and extra durability+daring shout.
ok do damage as thaum/rene but dont have any control ok? or get a bit, like 0.5 sec ?(like DR on unstoppable was <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up)
roots are useless, or are you really trying to compare HR roots with CW CC ? cw has dodges too, and the "speed" SW and gwf has is just a replacement for dodge, and unstoppable just compensates the lack of range(its not like it gives DR anymore or anything)
My PvP senti/inti GWF outdpses most PuG CWs. My PvP HR outdpsed some similar equiped CWs.
My 18,6K CW with 5 leg companions (iounstone, blinkdog, erynie, wild hunt rider etc.) gets outdpsed by decent SWs, good HRs.
This is on live. With mod 5 CWs will get nerfed along with GWFs and HRs, TRs get buffed, SW get a new paragon, but YOU know, that CWs deserve a PvE nerf before the changes are even live.
CW is a control class, that might be your opinion, but clearly not the Devs opinion. They nerfed CC time and time again, forcing CWs to go for dps.
I think one of the main reasons CWs do good dmg compared to most PuGs is, that some CWs did outstanding work to minmax CWs abilities and are generous enough to share their finds with the lazy masses. Every CW who can read the english forum can minmax his CW after spending 30 mins reading their elaborated posts. There are some good guides for other classes, but the CW ones are outstanding in their detail.
Wait for Mod 5 to go live or for the final specs on preview before you state things like well deserved nerfs.