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How to Achieve Long-Term Success of NW

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    felinegamingfelinegaming Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    runebane wrote: »
    The biggest hurdle to new characters is information. There are easy ways to get AD, both back then and now. They just have to find them. Takes research. Most won't bother. This was a problem then and now. Nothing new.

    For example, you mentioned players not getting farm enchants or selling on the AH. They should. If they knew about them, they are easy to get. Blacklake skirmish during 2-3 bonus hours can max your AD refinement for the day. In less than a week you could have 3 lesser feys (30K each). Maybe even 3 lesser dragon's hoards (50K each). Now that its cheap to switch enchants you'd only need one set till you could afford more.

    The barrier between new and old players is far greater than mere information. Neverwinter is about making AD. It has been since beta. 24k AD/day is tossed around as the gold standard new players should aim for, but realistically that AD is meaningless. New players won't close power gaps with leadership. Let me give you an idea what established players truly make.

    I have well over a billion AD worth of gear supporting my income and reliably make between 1.5 and 2.5 million AD profit per day on professions alone. No leadership, no farming, no botting, no cheating, no exploits. Add other income sources and I clear 10 million AD profit on a good day. I have personally put over 2 billion AD through the AH so far this year and know other players making even more. There is simply NO WAY new players can EVER accrue enough currency to approach established players on even remotely equal footing. 10 million AD/day is a lot more than 24k.

    Neverwinter's economics mean the rich get richer and the poor stay poor. The gap widens every single day. When I started new players could enter a dungeon, split the T2 drop, and clear 200k AD per run. That's how I acquired most of my kit. Those days are long gone and no reliable source of income has replaced it. New dungeons are easy and either drop devalued gear or are so heavily gated behind RNG they're worthless from an AD perspective.
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    lewstelamon01lewstelamon01 Member Posts: 7,415 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    lilbyrdie wrote: »
    I would actually point out, to myself, that Neverwinter is #45 on Steam: http://steamcharts.com/top/p.2

    That's a pretty impressive feat. It also puts the numbers in context. Portal 2 is #75 currently, but not the same genre. EVE Online is #112, also a free-to-play MMO, with an all-time peak of 3690 concurrent players.

    Point is, again probably just to myself, the Neverwinter numbers are well ahead of other MMOs and popular games, based on Steam numbers. I don't think I picked a losing game. I also like the financial model and the ability to farm for AD->Zen as desired. It's truly not needed, though, which is awesome.

    Um...when did EVE Online go F2P? EVE has the option of buying subscription time with ingame currency but it is NOT F2P.
    ROLL TIDE ROLL

    Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?

    PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
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    felinegamingfelinegaming Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I've received some feedback about my last post. I should mention this account has absolutely nothing of value and has no resemblance or connection to my real account. It exists solely to protect both my guild and myself. My last statement otherwise puts both in the crosshairs of hackers and other unscrupulous people.

    For this reason I will not divulge either my real account or my guild. I suggest people wanting help with either gear or mechanics check the guild recruitment forum. Several guilds have super-rich players devoting a sizable portion of their wealth to helping guild members gear up and succeed.

    Thank you.
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    liliadnaliliadna Member Posts: 96
    edited October 2014
    I have well over a billion AD worth of gear supporting my income and reliably make between 1.5 and 2.5 million AD profit per day on professions alone. No leadership, no farming, no botting, no cheating, no exploits. Add other income sources and I clear 10 million AD profit on a good day. I have personally put over 2 billion AD through the AH so far this year and know other players making even more. There is simply NO WAY new players can EVER accrue enough currency to approach established players on even remotely equal footing. 10 million AD/day is a lot more than 24k.

    why I believe it's possible that you sell items worth 2,5mln AD a day you hardly can call it a profit, cos you need to buy resources (dragon eggs) and you need to count in auction fee. Atm economics is set that way that you hardly make any profit on making clothing/enchants (there is nothing else valuable to make so you might as well stop the cryptic mysterious talk) if lucky you earn like 20k per item you sell because there is so many people doing so that you might get undercut any given moment and you lose your deposit 5% fee. So yeah I don't buy it... and to make 10M a day, I mean every single day it's simply not possible unless you scam kick in CN like half of the day (12hours a day).
    Neverwinter's economics mean the rich get richer and the poor stay poor.
    oh really? isn't that the 101 economy system of capitalism? how else it suppose to be?
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    liliadnaliliadna Member Posts: 96
    edited October 2014
    Um...when did EVE Online go F2P? EVE has the option of buying subscription time with ingame currency but it is NOT F2P.

    yeah, too bad, I loved that game, but after getting my ship blown apart for the 8 time and to lose it due to a lag 2 additional times while playing carebear, I gave up (those megafights of 50+ ships on each side were epic so it was worth the money but still...)
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    melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    runebane wrote: »
    This is exactly the reason why the people running the game need to listen to player feedback. Whether said feedback is actionable or not. It is very easy for players to leave for another free game. Posts like this make people feel unwanted here. No need to push people away from the game or the forums.

    Most of the players who bother to write a forum post (even rants or rage posts) actually care about the game. Don't get me wrong, they probably don't actually know what's best for the game. As players we can't always see the big picture. But we like something about it, or we wouldn't be here. I know for me, posting suggestions here isn't "wasting my time" at all.
    carrytiex wrote: »
    ^Very true. I feel like theres a lot of pushing players away. From design decisions to even the forums. I also agree that player feedback is important, however at the same time some of our posts can also not be trusted. People are selfish so they can talk purely from their point of view which may only be in their interest rather than the games interest, but they can point out flaws in the games design that do make them unhappy, such as the refininig process. I feel like even if the devs did pay a little more attention to feedback here which they should.

    all you're talking about here is personal perception.

    there is no way to please everyone all of the time. while feedback is welcome, is not in any way a promise for change. and there is no way that you'll ever know how that feedback is addressed internally unless it is something they can make public.

    this isn't pushing players away, this is a fact in any for profit company.

    some of the best input is pulled from data and can outweigh feedback provided on the forums.

    the main problem with the OPs video is it's mostly comprised of conjecture. without actual numbers and proof, it's nothing but a rant.
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    diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    the main problem with the OPs video is it's mostly comprised of conjecture. without actual numbers and proof, it's nothing but a rant.

    Since you seem to ignore the context, the guy who made the video is a designer and he worked on many games (including F2P ones) but is probably tied to NDAs for obvious reasons. While it would be nice to get some confidential data it wouldn't be a good thing for his career. This can't even be qualified as a rant, it's just an insight from someone working in this field.

    You seem to ignore how many people loathe such bad practices. This summer there was rumor about PWE buying a company making game I play very casually and the servers, the forums, the reddit, got threadnoughts about how much they disliked the company for the very exact reasons mentioned in the video.
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    magiquepursemagiquepurse Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    diogene0 wrote: »
    Since you seem to ignore the context, the guy who made the video is a designer and he worked on many games (including F2P ones) but is probably tied to NDAs for obvious reasons. While it would be nice to get some confidential data it wouldn't be a good thing for his career. This can't even be qualified as a rant, it's just an insight from someone working in this field.

    You seem to ignore how many people loathe such bad practices. This summer there was rumor about PWE buying a company making game I play very casually and the servers, the forums, the reddit, got threadnoughts about how much they disliked the company for the very exact reasons mentioned in the video.

    Yeah I can confirm most of what's in this post.

    Also Extra Credits is a recognized, RESPECTED channel. The number of views and their huge success as proven by Likes/Dislikes ration cannot be simply disregarded.
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    carrytiexcarrytiex Member Posts: 231 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    all you're talking about here is personal perception.

    there is no way to please everyone all of the time. while feedback is welcome, is not in any way a promise for change. and there is no way that you'll ever know how that feedback is addressed internally unless it is something they can make public.

    this isn't pushing players away, this is a fact in any for profit company.

    some of the best input is pulled from data and can outweigh feedback provided on the forums.

    the main problem with the OPs video is it's mostly comprised of conjecture. without actual numbers and proof, it's nothing but a rant.

    I say that it's a real issue when a lot of friends and guildies have left the game. To some extent it happens. People move on, stuff happens in life etc etc. Except that dungeons, the very thing I loved doing in this game since joining a guild is just something I've enjoyed less and less each module which pushes people away by them not being rewarding and it takes a grind to unlock them. More time is spent doing solo content than anything else. Even people who are still happy with the game achknowledge that the game was more fun in the past.

    The prices initially were a massive turn off and something I could see as an instant turn off for a lot of players. Personally I stayed with it and gave the game a chance, I had a friend who liked nvn2 so thought I'd check this out. Kind of regret supporting the company though. I did have some fun for the first 6-8 months or so, but there have been a lot of negative changes and content since then. The game had the potential to be something great that I'd feel could live a long time, I don't think that now though. Had they listed to concerns about MC being unrewarding, they could have upped the attractiveness of the game, but they didn't.

    I mean really, all the content recently is timegated by stuff people don't want to do. I don't see that as anything other than pushing people away along with everything else. As a customer I feel unappreciated.
    Tbh gaming has been something I've enjoyed since a kid, but now it's something I enjoy less and feel a little demoralised to try and get into other games.

    Anyway, they clearly ignore important feedback otherwise previre bugs reported wouldn't go live and we wouldn't of had the inferno distaster. There are other things too but I've said enough.
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    elitegrahamelitegraham Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    all you're talking about here is personal perception.

    there is no way to please everyone all of the time. while feedback is welcome, is not in any way a promise for change. and there is no way that you'll ever know how that feedback is addressed internally unless it is something they can make public.

    this isn't pushing players away, this is a fact in any for profit company.

    some of the best input is pulled from data and can outweigh feedback provided on the forums.

    the main problem with the OPs video is it's mostly comprised of conjecture. without actual numbers and proof, it's nothing but a rant.

    This guy is speaking from experience and as a player off many mmo's over 15 years id have to agree, the F2P model is toxic in Neverwinter and to ignore it is just ignorant.

    Its not doing the company any good and its certainly hurting the loyal players, people are passionate about this because they enjoy the game but they can see it dying.

    Massive revamps need to be done in Zen store and various parts of the content in game. The community's attitude and general morale needs boosting; because right now its a depressing place to play in out of your guild.

    I really hope its fixed before its too late.
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    vedran541vedran541 Member Posts: 199 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    all you're talking about here is personal perception.

    there is no way to please everyone all of the time. while feedback is welcome, is not in any way a promise for change. and there is no way that you'll ever know how that feedback is addressed internally unless it is something they can make public.

    this isn't pushing players away, this is a fact in any for profit company.

    some of the best input is pulled from data and can outweigh feedback provided on the forums.

    the main problem with the OPs video is it's mostly comprised of conjecture. without actual numbers and proof, it's nothing but a rant.

    I dont think increasing the gap between players more and more each mod, leaving no content for geared players, is an personal perception. I also dont think adding more AD-sinks instead of dealing with the real problem, like mass exploits, so the exploiters have a sink to their black hole of AD leaving the legit players so far behind even if they spent thousands of dollars it would still be impossible to catch up, is a personal perception.

    People posting on these forums are generally trying to help the game with awesome suggestions because they enjoy the combat system. I too do that, but the direction im seeing it going it just leaves wondering if its worth it.

    If you see some of the more experienced forum members that post here. Lets take ayroux for example, he has made so many suggestions to the DEVs im starting to feel sorry for the guy. Because his suggestions are really awesome and would help the game a lot, but never gets attention.

    Fact is people are leaving this game at the speed of light. While new ones are joining, they are so far behind the players that are still left in the game that its not fun for either of them, new and old.
    melodywhr wrote: »
    if a brick and mortar store doesn't have what i like in it, i'm not going to spend my money in there. as a consumer, i have that kind of power. i'm not going to stand outside its doors and complain to the customers about my preferences nor am i going to waste my time writing letters to the company telling them what my preferences are and how they can cater to me personally.

    Thats a valid point. But what if you already spend tons of money on that brick and mortar and over time its turning so bad, your house is falling apart. Its not like players are asking for a refund or anything. Just that you dont drive more people away !
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    runebanerunebane Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    all you're talking about here is personal perception.

    there is no way to please everyone all of the time. while feedback is welcome, is not in any way a promise for change. and there is no way that you'll ever know how that feedback is addressed internally unless it is something they can make public.

    this isn't pushing players away, this is a fact in any for profit company.

    Personal Perception - Of course it is. Most things in the world tends to be based on personal perception. Wars start because people perceive things one way and the other see it differently. In a more relevant setting: Its why some games are successful, its why others fail.

    And no, you can't ever please everyone. I *completely* understand that. Heck I tried and failed at that with my Foundry quests. Half the people complain they are to hard, the other half says they're to easy. I even added difficulty options, but it wasn't enough. Its never enough. However, just because you can't do something doesn't mean you shouldn't listen to the feedback. It helps you understand where they are coming from. And perhaps find another way to help them.

    As for pushing players away... I was more referring to your earlier comments about feedback being a waste of time. Sorry, but that really made me feel pushed away. I know you tried to use a 'brick and mortar' store for comparison. But that doesn't compare at all. Those stores tend to sell mostly what people need, and a little of what people want. And even if they wanted to, they can't just delete/change their stock if they find out people don't like it. This is a video game though, the opposite. Stuff can be changed if its warranted. And no one needs it at all. Its all 100% want. Which means more than most things its driven by the desires of customers.

    And yes, everyone knows its a business out to make a profit. The point of the video is that their are more ways to make that profit. Not that they shouldn't make money.

    FTP games are always populated by a balance of those with money and those with time. (And the rare few with both.) Finding a balance is necessary, or one side feels alienated. Games need both to succeed. My own point of view is that Neverwinter isn't completely failing at this. But it does seem to be sliding more towards the "whales" as it goes. And I've seen to many other game go that route one step at a time that till they fell off a ledge.
    Halgarth's Legacy - NWS-DSTGFZHFR
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    melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    whether EC is legit isn't the point. the speaker in that video themselves admit they don't have the numbers but makes speculative statements anyway. and they (dan jones) flip flop between points... you can't really talk about f2p in generalities because this model can be varied depending on what game you're talking about. and speculative statements and assumptions are just that when you do not have any facts.

    if free to play games are not profitable, then this period if gaming history will eventually evolve into something else. at its core, it's a way to get individuals interested in playing and investing in their product with no initial monetary requirement. neverwinter specifically is set up so that nearly all content can be acquired through a long term time investment. FOR FREE. but this is a game and there are thousands more out there... new ones releasing all the time. i don't think any gaming company is deluded enough to think that their core player base isn't doing other things in their spare time. or that people will come and go as players.
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    runebanerunebane Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    whether EC is legit isn't the point. the speaker in that video themselves admit they don't have the numbers but makes speculative statements anyway. and they (dan jones) flip flop between points... you can't really talk about f2p in generalities because this model can be varied depending on what game you're talking about. and speculative statements and assumptions are just that when you do not have any facts.

    Eh... With me the thing is - I agree with just about everything in the video. I don't need to see the numbers. I've seen it in action with other ftp games I've played over the last 10 years. I see nothing in the video that is actually 'wrong'. So arguing about whether or not the video has it right just seems silly. Opinions can't really be wrong anyway, just different. (Though I wonder sometimes.) But as you said elsewhere, that's personal perception.

    On the flip side, I don't think Neverwinter is focusing completely on Whales. I'm saying it feels they are moving that way. Slowly. With lots of lockbox updates (that are primarily a whales thing) and less new stuff in the shop to buy for $10.
    Halgarth's Legacy - NWS-DSTGFZHFR
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    adernathadernath Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    vadimt83 wrote: »
    ^^ This.
    You don't need prefects, r10s, augments, and BiS gear. You want that.
    I soloed Kessell (boss fight after everyone else died and he was at around 80% health) without an augment, weapon/armor enchants and decked in r5s.
    So the game lets you pay for it or let you have it if you grind really hard. Casuals can enjoy the content without aiming for 20k OMG GS.
    ^This.
    I do concur with everything the video states. But what jumped out at me was the constant mention of the "STANDARD Free-to-play business model" - which Cryptic Studios does not employe (I don;t know about other PWE games). Cryptic's policy is and always has been 100% Free-to-play with zero content paywall gating.

    You can play the game from end-to-end without ever spending a single penny of legal tender, ever. Is it a GRINDFEST? Yes. But it costs nothing. Everything that is sold in the Zen Market or Trade Bar merchant or anything else dealing with Zen or Astral Diamonds is all "want" stuff, never ever is any of that "need" stuff.
    If you want to do PvP more seriously then you always need the best gear and strive for it as we have no leagues. For certain gear like legendary artifacts and legendary weapons the 'grind' is not possible to perform for a large playerbase. This game is f2p, but you have a large paywall covered in RNG. You speak of the possibility to grind your way up, but if that possibility is as close to zero, then all I read is a comment of someone who want to give others a false impression about what is going on in reality. Did you ever tried to get an artifact to epic using only the material you find or the AD you earned with your loot? Unless you work the AH 24/7 or grind 24/7 (which would keep you so busy that you dont even have time to do PvP - which was the original intention) or have a large bot-army (which is illegal), this is simply impossible. Sorry for these harsh words.
    Suggestions to improve NW:
    - Dualspec
    - Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
    - Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
    - Armory
    - make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
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